-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Project CARS 2 discussion thread (provisional release date: Septemberish 2017)
- Thread starter Mascot
- Start date
They are far better. How good that is? I don't know, I am not a pad player.
FWIW, my take on rewind.
Racing is about risk vs reward, having rewind takes pretty much all the risk away, because you know that if you mess up, you have a safety net, this (to me) takes a lot of the satisfaction out of racing.
Games like Forza, where you have to barrel through the grid as the games progress demands that you finish in the top 3, means that rewind is more acceptable, but for sim racing games, I don't think there is a place for it, one of the best things about Dirt Rally was that overwhelming sense of risk, one wrong corner and you've had it.
That said, I do think that there should be a special learning mode, a mode where rewind is available to enable you to learn the track, I also thing this mode could be fleshed out to provide a extra layer of gameplay, a bit like the way the track mastering system worked in Shift 2.
Racing is about risk vs reward, having rewind takes pretty much all the risk away, because you know that if you mess up, you have a safety net, this (to me) takes a lot of the satisfaction out of racing.
Games like Forza, where you have to barrel through the grid as the games progress demands that you finish in the top 3, means that rewind is more acceptable, but for sim racing games, I don't think there is a place for it, one of the best things about Dirt Rally was that overwhelming sense of risk, one wrong corner and you've had it.
That said, I do think that there should be a special learning mode, a mode where rewind is available to enable you to learn the track, I also thing this mode could be fleshed out to provide a extra layer of gameplay, a bit like the way the track mastering system worked in Shift 2.
HF2014
Member
Can u say it controls like let say Forza or Gran Turismo?
Baleoce
Member
Yeah I definitely agree with the bolded.
Silver Arrows
Banned
One of the underrated aspects of SHIFT 2 Unleashed. And it helped too with alleviating boredom you might get with a big lead, trying to clip the corners you haven't mastered yet.
Again, you are going to have to take his words at face value. With some of the private events, people have been saying that it's 'better' and we don't know what that means, yet.
I can't really compare because I'm not very much into gamepads for racers. I can say I could not keep the car inside the track in PC1 and I can somehow race in PC2. But a more experienced gamepad player cou!d go into more detail, I'm sure.
There are enough clever compromises that can be made for it to be foolish of them to completely leave it out imo. One of the things that early on grabbed my attention with pCars was how they were willing to re-asses some of these hard stances the community has taken over the years.
Give us (me) a console beta and I'll tell you
paragonpro
Banned
Has the pro bumped the first game to running acceptably on ps4? If so ill pick it up, was always interested but never bit due to the reports of poor performance on consoles
Yes, but currently only with beta firmware.
Fuck yeah. Performance is glorious now. Thunderstorm races are lots of fun.
Need access?
TylerDurden4321
Member
Again on the practicing modes:
A really low cost, but very immersive thing for beginners to learn the tracks would be an option to activate a track version with cone markers like in a racing school - double blue cones for braking point, then three orange cones for turn-in, apex and out. They don't even need to be in different positions for different cars, they aren't on track days in real life either even though the cars people take there are very different. It's just meant so you can more easily get to your personal ideal markers in incremental steps and know which corner should be driven with a late apex for example.
A really low cost, but very immersive thing for beginners to learn the tracks would be an option to activate a track version with cone markers like in a racing school - double blue cones for braking point, then three orange cones for turn-in, apex and out. They don't even need to be in different positions for different cars, they aren't on track days in real life either even though the cars people take there are very different. It's just meant so you can more easily get to your personal ideal markers in incremental steps and know which corner should be driven with a late apex for example.
I'm sure Ian mentioned something about this recently on GTP or the pCars forums.
TJP
Member
Played pcars on the Xbox One for "free". I knew it would be a downgrade from the PC version but not by as much as it is (not trying to start a religious debate). Aliasing and pop up were the worst offenders; frame rate seemed play with a few cars on screen. Horrid default controller settings meant drifting around most corners 8(
Still, the weather and day-night-day transition made me smile and I look forward to see what SMS improve on with pcars 2.
Still, the weather and day-night-day transition made me smile and I look forward to see what SMS improve on with pcars 2.
Pcars is free on Xbox Live Gold right now, so I downloaded it, and I don't mind the controller setup. Hell, I can even run the default controller setup, but the custom settings offered up in this thread are better. It definitely feels different from Forza. I feel like tire traction, braking and acceleration give a little better feedback than Forza 6.
I've already downloaded a bunch of free cars. I also downloaded the following: US Race Car, Classic Lotus Track Expansion and the Audi Ruapuna Park, Pagani Nurburgring, and the Aston Track expansion.
I'll just leave you all with the brutal but mellifluous thunder of one of my favorite cars:
Corvette C6.R GT2 Awesome Sounds on the Track!
I've already downloaded a bunch of free cars. I also downloaded the following: US Race Car, Classic Lotus Track Expansion and the Audi Ruapuna Park, Pagani Nurburgring, and the Aston Track expansion.
I'll just leave you all with the brutal but mellifluous thunder of one of my favorite cars:
Corvette C6.R GT2 Awesome Sounds on the Track!
razorblade79
Member
I'm in if it comes with VR support on PC.
Also I'm a filthy casual so I would love rewind a la Forza. Any argument against at least Forza is invalid since your online times only count if do not use it and your progress increases if you disable it in the campaign. It helped me a ton in learning tracks *while still having fun playing the game*. In my opinion the way they implemented it there is no reason it can be seen as bad and any argument against it can only come from a place of elitism as far as I can tell.
Also I'm a filthy casual so I would love rewind a la Forza. Any argument against at least Forza is invalid since your online times only count if do not use it and your progress increases if you disable it in the campaign. It helped me a ton in learning tracks *while still having fun playing the game*. In my opinion the way they implemented it there is no reason it can be seen as bad and any argument against it can only come from a place of elitism as far as I can tell.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Especially in sim-racing a lot of those arguments come from elitism, but "any argument against it"??
Do you know this feeling of "this seems hard", "why make it more complex than necessary". The brain loves to be lazy ("bottom feeding"). But a big part of the fun comes from getting better and mastering harder challenges. Many games do the progression thing, (character stats get better for example), so it feels like you are improving and being rewarded. That's fine, it works in some racing games, the so called Car-PGs well, but not asking the player to get better, means that many players will never get to the skill-mastery kind of fun that a racing game has to offer.
I hate to do this particular example, but imagine Demon's Souls and Dark Souls giving the player a rewind. Most reviewers would be lazy and use the rewind to death, same with most of the players, they wouldn't get the same feeling of mastery and the games would be pretty boring and could be finished by everyone and a lot faster.
I'm not saying every racing game needs to be Dark Souls, but I'm saying a racing sim should offer Dark Souls AND encourage players in whatever way to experience that mastery kind of fun. Many developers have come to the same conclusion, look at Driveclub that doesn't offer a racing line or DiRT Rally that moved away from the rewind feature. Personally I don't think it's absolutely right what those studios did there, you should allow newcomers and casuals to have a less punishing learning curve(edit: #Zone-of-proximal-development), but don't let them bottom feed like the recent Forza games either. What Forza does right though is to have some encouragement with it's "more money for turning off driving line and rewinds", the problem there is just that nobody cares about those few bucks, if you easily get Credits from wheelspins and Forza rewards.
In a game like Project CARS where everything is unlocked from the start, it's even harder to allow a learning curve without letting people bottom feed.
I imagine somebody might say to let Forza keep rewind along with XP, imaginary currency, a high cars-to-tracks ratio, car bowling, car soccer, baked lighting, fixed weather, imaginary vehicles from space shooters, limousines, no concessions to motorsport, 3-lap races, bash-to-the-front mentality, gold/silver/bronze medals etc etc.
I'd never say something like that but I imagine somebody might.
I'd never say something like that but I imagine somebody might.
Yesterday i read a thread that was basically: I don't like racing games, but since I like FH3, It means it's the best racing game ever.
Like I said before, wanting the devs to spend time in features that cater to people that actually like racing ganes is not elitism.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I say keep that!
But have a progression in what the game asks of you. I love starting in cheap used 80's Toyota with the most disgusting never changed oil in Gran Turismo. I like that it's not 20 lap races in those cars. I like the tuning in those games. I like side-activities like "avoid traffic" or and eco-challenge. Stupid cars like the limo, a racing truck, military vehicles, WW2 "cars", I think that's all in good fun, I gladly pay for that if it's well done.
But the value of the rewards and costs of cars in current Forza titles are all wrong and that the FM games just stick to the "short races with tons of morons to overtake"-formula is bad! The last Forza had optional endurance races, but there isn't any middle-ground between 3-5 lap races and the few 90 minute endurane challenges (again, no curve to the difficulty or learning). Also, they aren't real challenges, if you can allow rewind, have no damage, no tire degredation, no fuel consumption and turn down the ai difficulty to some stupid degrees(I don't even wanna know how often I would lap the slower cars on the lowest difficulty in a 2h race).
I also want some better rewards than just more credits for doing the harder challenges, it should be rewards that you can' get any other way (yes, "story" progression would be ok and no, Xbox achievements isn't a reward in that sense).
About the car count... Personally I prefer fewer cars but simulate everything that makes a car special. If it's too much effort to simulate rear wheel steering, don't put that particular car in your game. Forza is very guilty of giving a ton of their cars a copy+paste feel in my opinion, but those games don't have to be for me and I can see value in having all the cars, that you ever wanted to drive and sit in, in a game; I can see why people love that. It's optional for people like me, there are enough cars in Forza that feel accurate enough (weren't it for the bad FFB compared to PC-sim standards... or almost any standards really).
Forza Motorsport used to have this motto "Car lovers to gamers and gamers to car lovers" and even though I don't think they made as good on that as they should have after a stellar progression from FM1 to FM4, I think it's a great motto. One that shows their focus on not catering just to a niche crowd of motorsport enthusiasts, but to show the guys who love Halo 3 how great cars and a racing game can be, and the people who enjoy Top Gear and YouTube supercar reviews.
Catering to just people who like "racing games" maybe isn't elitism, but it limits your audience to a degree that doesn't allow to shoot for the stars when you plan your game.
A game of the magnitude of pCARS2 isn't sustainable with just that crowd and a 2-3 year release cycle. I know you hate to play game-dev/publisher, but Project CARS needs to go beyond the crowd of DiRT Rally and Assetto Corsa, the size of SMS demands that. They need those not-racing dedicated people who buy a Forza or GT from time to time.
Not every Racing game needs to be entry level.
I also don't believe in the cliché of things need to be meant for everybody to sell well. That reasoning has been debunked so many times it is not even fun. In fact Project CARS sold 2 million copies because it offered something unique in this world of do whatever to cater to all, but end up catering only to those who don't care.
I'm not against features that help new playera. A good driving school is a good solution in the context of Project Cars. A rewind function is not.
I also don't believe in the cliché of things need to be meant for everybody to sell well. That reasoning has been debunked so many times it is not even fun. In fact Project CARS sold 2 million copies because it offered something unique in this world of do whatever to cater to all, but end up catering only to those who don't care.
I'm not against features that help new playera. A good driving school is a good solution in the context of Project Cars. A rewind function is not.
And I wish Dark Souls would have an 'easy' option.
Personally I play Forza and GT, and I don't mind the design ethos in those types of games, it 'fits' (even though I'd prefer it stick to the motorsport moniker a bit more)
But I commend developers who say fuck all that, this is going to be a pure experience, for people who are prepared to learn the nuances of each car and track.
Games like AC and PCars have more nuances in a single car and track than the whole roster in a game like Forza or GT.
Personally I play Forza and GT, and I don't mind the design ethos in those types of games, it 'fits' (even though I'd prefer it stick to the motorsport moniker a bit more)
But I commend developers who say fuck all that, this is going to be a pure experience, for people who are prepared to learn the nuances of each car and track.
Games like AC and PCars have more nuances in a single car and track than the whole roster in a game like Forza or GT.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Me too, I just don't have the time and patience to retrace my steps after a death as carefully as I did the first and second time around... over and over again.
I thought about it some more in the context of racing games and how games that tried to open the genre for a bigger audience tackled the problem of very heterogeneous player skills (historically):
Need for Speed:
- Rubberbanding
Gran Turismo:
- Let players earn better cars (or tune the owned ones) than the AI has at their disposal and stay ahead of the progression curve (involved grinding)
Forza Motorsport:
- best dynamic driving line of its time with color grading and car dependent braking points
GRiD:
- Rewind
Driveclub:
- almost no run-off areas (guarrails/walls everywhere) and no damage (and some rubberbanding)
Of course there is also car control assists (some are simulating real life driving aids, others defy physics), but we know, too much of those and the player doesn't feel like he's in control anymore => frustrating.
pCARS had electronic assists and a driving line, but the driving line was garbage to a degree the player feels bullshitted.
I'd love to know the thought process at SMS. Hopefully it's not just "turn the difficulty down if you're not good". I mean if you usually spin out twice in a 5 lap race, you need to set the difficulty reaaally low and lead by a significant margin to be on the safe side, that's not fun for players of lower skill. That's not a solution.
What's viable is saying "this game is not for you then", but I'm not sure that there are 2 million plus people out there of the hardcore racing type to buy a pCARS every 2-3 years.
Too hardcore.
Spaceman Spiff
Member
!
Here I am trying to keep my expectations measured, but all that, plus reading that pitstop procedures will reflect the regulations of a particular series, is doing me no favors whatsoever.
Being able to run a virtual WEC season is going to be quite the treat.
Christ, I really hope SMS pull all of this off. They seem to be thinking of all the little details that could add so, so much to the overall experience.
Could not help it. Racing ganes have gone astray so much that your typical racing rules sound so hardcore to people.
Translate that into other sports. Imagine soccer games not having offside, but having a rewind option, sounds crazy?
That's what I was hoping Grand Turismo Sport was going to be like since the FIA is helping with that game. But you got so many butt hurt fans over the direction they were trying to go with that game that I'm pretty sure it's turned into another car collect-a-thon where you can slap turbos and superchargers on everything.
It would have been nice for the FIA to go with a more simple oriented racing company.
As for PCARS 2, I would be super surprised if they meet that September time frame. I would have felt like Jan or Feb of 2018 would have been a bit more realistic.
It would have been nice for the FIA to go with a more simple oriented racing company.
As for PCARS 2, I would be super surprised if they meet that September time frame. I would have felt like Jan or Feb of 2018 would have been a bit more realistic.
It's weird. There are people in the GTP Q&A asking Ian Bell if XP and credits can be introduced to pCARS 2 so that cars can be unlocked to make the career 'interesting'. Those kind of requests got shot down in record time, thankfully.
There's plenty of room for GT, FM, pCARS and other racing titles because they all carve their own niche and have their own identities. There's no need to project features from one onto another. Just because it's appropriate in one game doesn't mean it should be shoe-horned into all games.
Sounding good! I love pcars for what it is, sounds like the sequel is delving further into simulating all aspects of motorsports. Still concerned with some of the disciplines they are offering, and how fleshed out and successful they'll be, but the overall package is sounding great. I probably sound like a broken record, but i hope to good kt ships with less massive bugs than the first.
Yeah, rallyx and ice racing don't really appeal to me as concepts (I might end up loving them) but so long as there's a solid GT racer in there, I'll be more than happy. The GT classes have been expanded and fleshed out, there's a shit-ton of new tracks, lots of little authenticity details are being added, MP options seem to have every eventuality covered, audio, visuals, FFB, GUI, general user-friendliness are all being improved, QA is being properly budgeted... It's all terribly exciting.
ReDelicious
Member
Trying to keep my hype in check but all of this I'm hearing just sounds soooo good.
BlindJesus
Member
Don't blame the developers for not compromising the engine and race features(dynamic weather, dynamic lighting, weather, track evolution) because the console is underpowered.
Bobnob
Member
Can't see how they will get this game to work properly on xb1, but i'll be getting scorpio like i expect many hardcore console players to do. I just hope the option for locked 60 fps in all conditions is there,even if the rez goes below 1080 lol j/k (i think) but yea locked 60 is a must. Will pcars1 get a Scorpio patch?
TheMan
Member
i'll blame the for saying they'd do it and then going back on that if i want to.
keep swinging from their nuts if that's what floats your boat.
Bobnob
Member
I think the casuals as well as the hardcore will love rallyx
BlindJesus
Member
They never confirmed PSVR for PCars 2, I don't know what your going on about. They only said they are looking into it. And if your talking about the first Pcars, maybe your bitching should be more specific in a thread about a separate game.
I don't think they've really "gone astray" so much as they just haven't even bothered to evolve or deem it necessary to include shit that you expect in a racing game. I mean fair play to Forza as it is a GT competitor and has done that style of car collecting/racing game well, but at this point they're just cruising along, adding more cars and more cars and a few tracks and more cars, and don't seem interested in adding hardcore options for those of us who want them.
I could see PCars 2 outselling Forza 7 this year, I'm just not sure what FM7 will bring to the table to make people want it. Sure there's a PC version, but stuttering issues, all associated problems with it being on the Windows store/UAP, no mods etc means I'll probably give it a miss this year. From what I've seen so far, PCars 2 looks like the racing game to get this year.
I don't know about AIs or single player experience, but I'm having a blast with RallyX, so enough for me (my focus in on community MP).
For me they have. Most gamers tend to think of Forza or GT as the standard for what you can expect from a sim. A sim in my eyes goes beyond physics (I'm not discussing the depth of physics of these titles here). But these games don't share any kind of resemblance to a rulebook, strategy or structure of the championships of real motosports.
When this happens in your middle ground, then your balance is totally screwed. From then on, you have games such as DriveClub being labelled as semi-sim.
Yeah I think I'm done with gt/forza. Was a diehard, played the shot out of even lackluster fm5, but barely touched 6. That said, fm7 will murder pears 2 in sales, at least on xbox
TheMan
Member
keep swinging brah