BlackTron
Member
Thanks, but aren't you self-aware that even having to write a post like this about achieving noise levels proves the point he was making about a console just doing it for someone who wants to play video games?
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PROJECT HELIX - A premium product for a new demographic
- Thread starter Matt_Fox
- Start date
Thanks, but aren't you self-aware that even having to write a post like this about achieving noise levels proves the point he was making about a console just doing it for someone who wants to play video games?
Fess
Member
That's the Steam Machine. Going by Xbox Ally X the Steam experience is going to be so-so. You're booting into Xbox App. It automatically adds already installed games to the menu but you need to swap into Steam to install anything new and you can't see achievements info, playtime and game info, etc, within Xbox App.
Insane Metal
Member
Xbox Helix or XBox DNA. Watch it.
xrnzaaas
Member
There is no way this can sell more than several million units in its entire lifetime. You have to be targetting people who are interested in buying (another?) expensive PC with a console-like experience. And people who for some reason don't want SteamOS for that but retarded Windows 11 running, consuming resources & messing things up in the background.
As for people's existing Xbox games libraries, they can always stick with Series consoles or older generations without seeing the need to 'upgrade'.
As for people's existing Xbox games libraries, they can always stick with Series consoles or older generations without seeing the need to 'upgrade'.
RickMasters
Member
M E T R O S E X U A L
Pah! says the guy who has a yellow crotch rocket for his Avi! I bet you are on of those dudes that shaves your armpits and pees sitting down....... with your yellow ducati!
Fess
Member
Yeah okay I get the last bit but he wrote about fan noise like it was a standard problem with self-built PCs where Xbox would be better.
Fess
Member
lol nope I can't relate to that I have everything on display on wall shelves
AndrewRyan
Member
If it can seamlessly integrate all the disparate stores into one clean interface it will be compelling. Bonus if it can manage all your subscriptions.
BlackTron
Member
He said noise lumped in with size and form factor, which is valid.
Companies can make custom designs and SOCs to minimize size and noise better than we can, at large.
It means you won't be able to upgrade it like a normal PC, which is something I would never accept for my monolithic expensive gaming "PC". I would prefer a giant noisy PC case to that, if I had to choose. But some would
SpongeMonster30
Neo Member
This machine isn't going to be subsidized at all and will have AI slop integrated in it for sure. Pass.
ByWatterson
Member
I think this is basically right in terms of the target demo, but it still doesn't create value for Xbox specifically for someone who isn't already into PC gaming.
And if they are already into PC gaming, they have literally no reason to buy an Xbox of any kind.
And if they're console people, everything Xbox does is on PlayStation. None of it makes any sense.
And if they are already into PC gaming, they have literally no reason to buy an Xbox of any kind.
And if they're console people, everything Xbox does is on PlayStation. None of it makes any sense.
Plague Doctor
Member
Since Nutella doesn't like the word "slop"...
All will bow to our overpriced AI overlords and overladies.
All will bow to our overpriced AI overlords and overladies.
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Alan Silvestro
Member
This Xbox crap is a dead brand, nobody wants it, it's like Zune, and Microsoft is doing everything it can to stick it somewhere... maybe by throwing money at it, they'll realize that the brand needs to be discontinued and that's that. Maybe they're keeping it to avoid class action lawsuits from users with large digital libraries.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I genuinely love the idea of a true, high-end console. But not this, for three reasons:
1) High-end in this context is still not going to be as high-end as a PC that I can build. I get that there are people who don't want to bother with that, and I fully understand, but it holds little value to me, without...:
2) Exclusives. Or the complete absence thereof. This has been Xbox's clear strategy, and it's why I have absolutely no desire to shell out for something like this. The Neo Geo was a high-end console that had games that were massively better than on other platforms or that, in most cases, just weren't available at all. That is worth spending money on. Being able to play a better version of Resident Evil 9 than on the PlayStation, but still worse than on PC, is not a compelling proposition.
3) It's Microsoft. I don't trust them, their AI push, their insistence on everything becoming a service, or their overall vision for gaming. Nor am I convinced that the gaming hardware business is a long-term concern for them.
So, I like the idea of this existing... but I don't want it.
1) High-end in this context is still not going to be as high-end as a PC that I can build. I get that there are people who don't want to bother with that, and I fully understand, but it holds little value to me, without...:
2) Exclusives. Or the complete absence thereof. This has been Xbox's clear strategy, and it's why I have absolutely no desire to shell out for something like this. The Neo Geo was a high-end console that had games that were massively better than on other platforms or that, in most cases, just weren't available at all. That is worth spending money on. Being able to play a better version of Resident Evil 9 than on the PlayStation, but still worse than on PC, is not a compelling proposition.
3) It's Microsoft. I don't trust them, their AI push, their insistence on everything becoming a service, or their overall vision for gaming. Nor am I convinced that the gaming hardware business is a long-term concern for them.
So, I like the idea of this existing... but I don't want it.
alabtrosMyster
Member
The PC I use in the living room is hidden in a drawer below the TV (I use the drawer as a custom PC case).
Who cares about their B.S. Xbox branded PC that can natively stream Xbox games
.
Who cares about their B.S. Xbox branded PC that can natively stream Xbox games
.
ReasonBeing
Member
While MS will have many opportunities to screw this up, I hope they do not. Give us an Xbox branded open platform. Let me play my OG Xbox games and my GOG games. Let me use this to drive my PCVR experiences.
I would be willing to sacrifice upgradeability if the value proposition and feature set is right
I would be willing to sacrifice upgradeability if the value proposition and feature set is right
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SomeNorseGuy
Gold Member
The Strange World of Console-Computer Hybrids
Weird things happen when you combine a video game system and an IBM PC.
It can join an exclusive and premium club.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
You know what? I'll actually play ball with you. I read the OP and I can see where you're coming from. I have noticed that older gamers are less price-sensitive and will tend to buy things simply for convenience even if they could consolidate purchases to fit multiple needs. There are people who have purchased multiple PS5s, one for each room, when in theory they could just simply relocate a single PS5 to multiple rooms and get the same result.
So on that note, you make a good point. If you're positing that such customers are analogous to hi-fi electronics customers, who will see the appeal in a high-performance gaming device that's already similar enough to other things in their daily workflow to cut down on acclimation time, but excels in its specific field at a high level of fidelity to provide a prestigious feeling, then I can see that as a valid argument. In such a case, you don't need the volumes of a customer base that prioritize price over performance, and arguably, targeting something analogous to the hi-fi electronics segment can bolster the value perception of your less capable/cheaper product offerings.
After all, we saw plenty of hi-fi electronics companies benefit from this over the years, especially those like Sony during the '80s and '90s, same with Panasonic/Matsushita, JVC etc.
But here's the thing: this is Microsoft we're talking about here. Microsoft don't have that type of association with prestige hardware outside of arguably the Surface line, and with Surface that was based on egregious prices for performance that didn't quite match the price being asked.
For any given Surface device, you could find laptops from companies like Dell or Asus that had better performance & specs at cheaper prices. The element of that "prestige" only works if your device delivers unquestionable performance superiority to other devices within a similar or even higher pricing range, and clearly beyond those which are cheaper. Microsoft have already failed to demonstrate this with Series X in comparison to PS5; now with Helix they won't just have PS6 to worry about, they'll be compared to similar PC/console hybrid devices from companies like Valve, Dell, Asus, Lenovo, Acer etc. as well.
Can Microsoft avoid the same failure of perceived "prestige" perception with the Helix system? We'll see. In any case, they still have a hill to climb given the Windows integration, and Windows is a terrible operating system these days (the rumors of Windows 12 suggest further deterioration of stability & user experience quality).
TBF to Helix, those devices were significantly less standardized in their implementations, and tech convergence as a whole was much lower. Progression of technology and standards was also moving at a record clip, whereas that isn't the case these days.
In theory, MS have enough market share control through Windows alongside much higher tech convergence & library convergence between console & PC gaming, to succeed where those earlier PC/console hybrid devices failed. But it'll have to come from having a strong vision and consistent execution, two things Xbox have lacked for two console generations in a low, and where no one should have confidence they'll break the trend on a third try.
So on that note, you make a good point. If you're positing that such customers are analogous to hi-fi electronics customers, who will see the appeal in a high-performance gaming device that's already similar enough to other things in their daily workflow to cut down on acclimation time, but excels in its specific field at a high level of fidelity to provide a prestigious feeling, then I can see that as a valid argument. In such a case, you don't need the volumes of a customer base that prioritize price over performance, and arguably, targeting something analogous to the hi-fi electronics segment can bolster the value perception of your less capable/cheaper product offerings.
After all, we saw plenty of hi-fi electronics companies benefit from this over the years, especially those like Sony during the '80s and '90s, same with Panasonic/Matsushita, JVC etc.
But here's the thing: this is Microsoft we're talking about here. Microsoft don't have that type of association with prestige hardware outside of arguably the Surface line, and with Surface that was based on egregious prices for performance that didn't quite match the price being asked.
For any given Surface device, you could find laptops from companies like Dell or Asus that had better performance & specs at cheaper prices. The element of that "prestige" only works if your device delivers unquestionable performance superiority to other devices within a similar or even higher pricing range, and clearly beyond those which are cheaper. Microsoft have already failed to demonstrate this with Series X in comparison to PS5; now with Helix they won't just have PS6 to worry about, they'll be compared to similar PC/console hybrid devices from companies like Valve, Dell, Asus, Lenovo, Acer etc. as well.
Can Microsoft avoid the same failure of perceived "prestige" perception with the Helix system? We'll see. In any case, they still have a hill to climb given the Windows integration, and Windows is a terrible operating system these days (the rumors of Windows 12 suggest further deterioration of stability & user experience quality).
The Strange World of Console-Computer Hybrids
Weird things happen when you combine a video game system and an IBM PC.www.pcmag.com
It can join an exclusive and premium club.
TBF to Helix, those devices were significantly less standardized in their implementations, and tech convergence as a whole was much lower. Progression of technology and standards was also moving at a record clip, whereas that isn't the case these days.
In theory, MS have enough market share control through Windows alongside much higher tech convergence & library convergence between console & PC gaming, to succeed where those earlier PC/console hybrid devices failed. But it'll have to come from having a strong vision and consistent execution, two things Xbox have lacked for two console generations in a low, and where no one should have confidence they'll break the trend on a third try.
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Fess
Member
At least try to be real here.
If you're on Xbox you would get access to old Xbox games, Steam, Epic, mods, emulators, PlayStation games, besides just playing new Xbox games. All on a device booting into a console UI.
There hasn't been more value added at a new platform launch before.
And if you're already into PC gaming you would get a multi launcher setup with a proper big screen UI made for the living room.
And there is 10-15 Xbox games on PlayStation, so no everything isn't on PlayStation.
EverydayBeast
ChatShitGPT Alpha 0.001
Every market and age matters is the right answer, worrying about your customer won't matter if you don't focus on a games forward approach
xanaum
Member
I get what you're saying. Even as a PC gamer, I don't ditch consoles. They're still way more plug-and-play than PC even with Steam Big Picture and exclusives are another big reason.
But going by the OP's argument, that niche already exists with PC mid/high gamer and Pro Consoles models. It's hard to see real enthusiasts people willing to spend big for top performance choosing a PC-like system with closed console hardware. They can just get a stronger high-end PC, and that crowd usually doesn't mind tweaking settings and configs.
To me, Xbox Helix seems aimed at a tiny audience. A small base that will still compete with regular gaming PCs, Steam Machines, and other "Machines" from different brands. It feels like Microsoft is preparing to be mostly a publisher, with a low-key portable and living-room PC option for some fans and a small group of buyers.
SomeNorseGuy
Gold Member
I was mostly shit-posting, but also wanted to shine a light on the fact that it's not excactly a new concept.
Excited for new hardware, as always. Would be nice if they could avoid willingly shooting themselves in the foot and just deliver an all around great product that benchmarks well.
LQX
Member
This thing actually has the potential to be huge disrupter on the PC side of things considering how much it is going to cost to build a PC for the next few years. Same for Steam Machine. I have always upgraded my PC, but with the way shit is going my next upgrade might just be this if it can beat my 3080 which is years old.
Artistic
Member
Maybe those who didn't have Xbox as their main console.
Otherwise, damn near impossible.
Artistic
Member
Hell of an assumption.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Of course it is, but it is somewhat a reasonable guess with the assumption of over $1,200 pricing.
Flintty
Member
I've had every Xbox at launch since the original but I made the switch to PS5 last year (or the year before, fuck knows - time flies!). There's very little MS can do to make me buy the next Xbox ever, let alone at launch. I guess only a banger of a Halo game exclusive to the box. But otherwise, no point at all. I have my PC for WoW and RTS/4X and PS5 for everything else, and I'll likely get a PS6 day one.
But they are already getting that with a regular pc. Majority of games from Xbox one first party games are on pc. Only the 360 ones are probably the ones you can't play but that is a small percentage of people who actually care about those.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So, an op that doesn't tell us pretty much anything about the thread title, kay. Seems like you should title this "the feelings project helix made me feel, a blog post by me" or whatever and should probably still include a bit more about what it is you're talking about.
MisterXDTV
Member
You have to go back more than a decade to find a true Xbox exclusive at this point
Unknown?
Member
3DO already tried this.
One thing that repeatedly comes up with discussion of Xbox Magnus - now Helix (who knows what it will eventually be branded) - is 'who is this for?'
We have to get over the mental hurdle that video games are toys, and that they are for youth. I think there is a new market untapped within video gaming, and it's older gamers.
Those like myself who grew up in the early days of gaming and are now in their forties and fifties, and have a level of affluence where spending £1k on a beloved hobby isn't a big deal. Whether that be a golfing holiday, a fishing trip, collectables, a season ticket to sports, a wine collection, or a premium gaming console.
This more affluent consumer is a home-owner and likely already owns a PC, but that PC is in their study next to an upright office chair, and it's mentally-connected to work rather than play. Plus the sight of a 'gamer PC' covered in neon lights and tubes, targeted at edgy teenagers, is not something this consumer wants to own, nor do they want the headache of configuring graphics settings.
They want something more like the form factor of a high end stereo component, that will go alongside their large TV in a nicely decorated lounge and will work out the box. Knowing that it is the most high performance console, and is 'reassuringly expensive' (as a different ad campaign once used as its slogan) makes it aspirational and exclusive. These are plus points not negatives. If I was Microsoft this is the marketing strategy I would lean into.
There hasn't been a 'premium' console since the NeoGeo in the early 90s (inflation adjusted it was $1,500), which did alright, but when that came out this older more affluent demographic of gamer didn't exist. I saw a post by Ice-T yesterday talking about playing Resident Evil Requiem, he's 68 years old. If Microsoft are smart enough to market Project Helix at this new demographic of older affluent gamers I believe they will sell a decent amount (and the younger gamers might even tag along too if they believe it to be an aspirational luxury brand). My two cents worth. What think you?
Edit: And below is a pic of Xbox recent marketing. Look at the ages they are targeting. All I'm suggesting is that a route to success for this new console could be to go older, whether or not they have the will or foresight to change ingrained marketing strategy could be doubtful, just offering my thoughts.
MS did this once with their laptops - they positioned it as high-cost device with premium design and branding, with so-so hardware but the best thermals of any Windows Laptop, as well as basically making windows tablets - actually relevant, reached decent audience/sales(I was one of the big supporters of the line), and then promptly proceeded to fire the guy that made it all a success and all but killed off the brand.
So yea - if we want XBox to be even deader than it already is - sure, let them do it all over again.
ReasonBeing
Member
I'm so thankful I bought my kit when I did in Oct 2024. 8845HS CPU and 4070 GPU laptop for $799. 32GB 5600 RAM for $120 and a 2TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 for $110. Those were the days.
pixelation
Member
XB faithful: How can I justify the existence of a (planned) new XB console when the world has demonstrated time and time again that it has no interest in them?
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
I have a library of games tied to my Xbox, and I'd rather get a premium console that allows me to keep playing them all (plus all the other non-exclusive games that will keep releasing on all systems) than see them all vanish into thin air.
Even something north of €1000 will probably be cheaper than a slightly better-specced PC in the time window Helix is bound to release. And I need to see the PS6 release at a readily affordable price before I believe it. Not that I'd return to the PS bandwagon anyway, having been off it after the PS3. Nothing currently ties me to the PS ecosystem.
Even something north of €1000 will probably be cheaper than a slightly better-specced PC in the time window Helix is bound to release. And I need to see the PS6 release at a readily affordable price before I believe it. Not that I'd return to the PS bandwagon anyway, having been off it after the PS3. Nothing currently ties me to the PS ecosystem.
There was a rumor that Xbox design was moved to the Surface team back in 2024:
Spitfire098
Member
You want Xbox to market its new console like a Viagra commercial?
Sounds like you are channeling "Thousands of dollars of value".... Don Mattrick on Xbox One...
"Speaking with Bloomberg TV, Mattrick said, It's a lower number than some of the analysts had forecasted. We're over-delivering value against other choices I think consumers can get.
"Any modern product these days you look at it [and] $499 isn't a ridiculous price point. We're delivering thousands of dollars of value to people, so I think they're going to love it when they use it."
Meanwhile Phil Spencer has said that consumers will only see the true value of Xbox One once its sitting on retailers shelves and all the ins and outs of the console are laid bare."
"We're over-delivering value": Mattrick defends Xbox One pricing
Xbox One's $499 / £429 price-point has received some flack since it was confirmed last week, but Microsoft's Don Mattri…
www.vg247.com
This like to me it didn't make sense for Microsoft custom chips for basically Xbox 360 backwards compatibility most people on Xbox aren't playing those games.
Taur007
Member
Native back compat? I mean, playing old games may not be your thing but PC still can't play a 360 game natively, not everyone wants to deal with emulation.
What about not having to tinker with settings? After a 10 - 12 hour shift I don't wanna have to worry about driver updates or spec requirements.
What about location? I sit at a PC most of my work day, I don't wanna sit at a desk at home too, yes the steam console is coming but it doesn't play "all" xbox games, how else will you play xbox games in your living room natively?
Should I continue?
Do you have a series X console? Then keep that if you care about 360 games.Native back compat? I mean, playing old games may not be your thing but PC still can't play a 360 game natively, not everyone wants to deal with emulation.
What about not having to tinker with settings? After a 10 - 12 hour shift I don't wanna have to worry about driver updates or spec requirements.
What about location? I sit at a PC most of my work day, I don't wanna sit at a desk at home too, yes the steam console is coming but it doesn't play "all" xbox games, how else will you play xbox games in your living room natively?
Should I continue?
Barakov
Member
One thing that repeatedly comes up with discussion of Xbox Magnus - now Helix (who knows what it will eventually be branded) - is 'who is this for?'
We have to get over the mental hurdle that video games are toys, and that they are for youth. I think there is a new market untapped within video gaming, and it's older gamers.
Those like myself who grew up in the early days of gaming and are now in their forties and fifties, and have a level of affluence where spending £1k on a beloved hobby isn't a big deal. Whether that be a golfing holiday, a fishing trip, collectables, a season ticket to sports, a wine collection, or a premium gaming console.
This more affluent consumer is a home-owner and likely already owns a PC, but that PC is in their study next to an upright office chair, and it's mentally-connected to work rather than play. Plus the sight of a 'gamer PC' covered in neon lights and tubes, targeted at edgy teenagers, is not something this consumer wants to own, nor do they want the headache of configuring graphics settings.
They want something more like the form factor of a high end stereo component, that will go alongside their large TV in a nicely decorated lounge and will work out the box. Knowing that it is the most high performance console, and is 'reassuringly expensive' (as a different ad campaign once used as its slogan) makes it aspirational and exclusive. These are plus points not negatives. If I was Microsoft this is the marketing strategy I would lean into.
There hasn't been a 'premium' console since the NeoGeo in the early 90s (inflation adjusted it was $1,500), which did alright, but when that came out this older more affluent demographic of gamer didn't exist. I saw a post by Ice-T yesterday talking about playing Resident Evil Requiem, he's 68 years old. If Microsoft are smart enough to market Project Helix at this new demographic of older affluent gamers I believe they will sell a decent amount (and the younger gamers might even tag along too if they believe it to be an aspirational luxury brand). My two cents worth. What think you?
Edit: And below is a pic of Xbox recent marketing. Look at the ages they are targeting. All I'm suggesting is that a route to success for this new console could be to go older, whether or not they have the will or foresight to change ingrained marketing strategy could be doubtful, just offering my thoughts.
Donald mac Ronald
Member
Can't wait to buy this, looks like Xbox are pulling out all the stops.
Fess
Member
It's just odd to say it adds no value to Xbox when it adds things that hasn't been there before on Xbox.Sounds like you are channeling "Thousands of dollars of value".... Don Mattrick on Xbox One...
"Speaking with Bloomberg TV, Mattrick said, It's a lower number than some of the analysts had forecasted. We're over-delivering value against other choices I think consumers can get.
"Any modern product these days you look at it [and] $499 isn't a ridiculous price point. We're delivering thousands of dollars of value to people, so I think they're going to love it when they use it."
Meanwhile Phil Spencer has said that consumers will only see the true value of Xbox One once its sitting on retailers shelves and all the ins and outs of the console are laid bare."
"We're over-delivering value": Mattrick defends Xbox One pricing
Xbox One's $499 / £429 price-point has received some flack since it was confirmed last week, but Microsoft's Don Mattri…
Steam, PlayStation games on Steam, games exclusive to PC, Epic Games Store, emulators, mods, full backwards compatibility.
= creates no value?
It's kinda ironic, console warriors mock it and goes "It's just a PC". But that in itself is an enormous addition to the platform. Being a PC, while still acting just like a console. People really aren't ready for it, so many doors are going to be opened.
Proof is still in the pudding of course. They have lots of work to do in just a year before launch. They need to make the console UI perfect, boot into that instead of Windows. IF it's done well it could remove a huge barrier that some console gamers sense that PC gaming have. It could be a new convenient entry point straight into fairly performant PC gaming for console gamers.
Steam Machine goes first though, it's essentially the same type of device, but with Linux underneath, and no Xbox console compatibility.
AmuroChan
Member
Most of my 360 library is in physical media. So unless this new console comes with a disc drive, BC is not a selling point. Plus I can just keep the Series X around to play my old games.
Fess
Member
Imo it absolutely needs to have a disc drive. I hope MS realize this. The investments for everyone being there since OG Xbox is in physical copies. Digital purchases on standard games didn't get common until Xbox One, I only bought XBLA games on 360.
A workaround could be to let us register our old discs somehow to get access to digital versions. Dig out the infamous XB1 DRM and use the functionality there to register discs, we were supposed to be able to put the discs away back then. Ignore the piracy risk, it's 25yo games.
It's obvious they've only made it because they don't have the guts to just say Xbox is dead and we're done. So they've come up with this nonsense instead which they can at least sell at a profit. And then when it fails they'll finally stop bothering at all and just be a publisher.
The idea that there's actually some viable niche for it to fill is laughable.
The idea that there's actually some viable niche for it to fill is laughable.