shinra-bansho
Member
Just doing things better worked for the PS2.
That's because of the numerous price drops that Sony did for it over it's lifespan, & coming off of PS2's huge success.
"Yeah, I'll go ahead and buy this $599 console with no games because the ps2 is awesome".
"Yeah, I'll go ahead and buy this $599 console with no games because the ps2 is awesome".
Just doing things better worked for the PS2.
they showed 10X the PPU & 10X the GPU but they left out the SPUs & said that the final specs would be 10X the PS3.
that has me thinking that they are not telling everything & there is something else there to make up for the SPUs , maybe there is a co-processor.
More from the same article:
I think "unintentionally" is a possible in the sense that AMD is making the core hardware and optimum might be exactly the same.
There is also that if you are supporting an ecosystem including handhelds you need to support those handheld standards. The HSA Foundation allowing distributed processing and easy porting of software requires OpenCL and it has already been accepted by several chip vendors including AMD which we know is making the Xbox hardware. WebGL, WebCL and OpenGLES are also standards everywhere except with Microsoft.
Microsoft is moving to support handhelds and desktop with the same OS so Khronos API standards would dominate not DirectX and Direct Compute. Microsoft browsers might support WebGL soon (my opinion). It doesn't require an agreement between Sony and Microsoft for Microsoft to start supporting embedded (handheld) standards as they have to support them if they want an OS that works from handheld to supercomputer.
There has to be more to this, that goes beyond this as Nintendo also uses Khronos standards and webkit/WebGL. On the other hand it would certainly rock the industry if Microsoft stated that they would support WebGL on their browsers. Microsoft has stated that security has been their issue with WebGL and AMD including ARM A5 CPUs for trustzone (DRM and security) may have resolved that issue. Certainly Microsoft supporting Direct compute should be more of a security issue than WebGL.
Again none of this requires talks between Microsoft and Sony so this implies more but what? Intentional hardware standards? Core hardware the same with Khronos API standards....Accessories; the same I/O standards ports & plugs?
Just doing things better worked for the PS2.
Oh my god! What a revelation. You should be a detective.Never said anything of the sort. I'm just saying, without the numerous price cuts, etc., it wouldn't have easily caught up to Xbox 360 in sales at all.
There are multiple reasons for the demise of SEGA/Dreamcast, not least of which their erosion of consumer goodwill with their add-ons and the lack of EA support.DVD & 3D polygons on PS1 & N64 looked terrible & needed a upgrade asap.
Dreamcast fell victim to being that 1st upgrade when everyone wasn't sure if they needed the upgrade yet, even though it was plain to see. but most people had a I'll wait this out & play my PS1\ N64 until the PS2 get here mind set even when the Dreamcast had hit at a good time & a good price.
PS2 allowed for the full realization of 3D games. PS1 started 3d gaming, but it looked pretty bad for the most part.
Maybe PS4 will allow for the full realization of HD. Its true a lot of the games are sub 720p and very few are 1080p. Maybe 1080p will be the norm. The problem is with that is, how big of an impact will it really make? A lot of times its hard to even tell the difference. For that reason it may be better to stay with 720p as you be able to increase the graphical fidelity in other areas and increase performance, even though the next consoles will be much more capable at doing 1080p for the majority of games.
x360 and PS3 really brought online gaming to consoles as well. Yes PS2 had some online games like Socom, and xbox went online. But once again it was the "full realization" of it that ps3 and 360 achieved.
The next consoles still need to do a lot more then improve apon the HD resolution of the games.
That's a given, at least to me and the major thrust of many of my earlier posts. But efficencies are primarily going to be used to allow more performance to be packed into one SOC without exceeding a heat budget. IF a co-processor is more efficient at a task, it should then be part of the design; this is the reason for HSA in the first place.I still lean more toward that including efficiency.
Reluctantly but it required Microsoft to reserve the domain name microsoft-sony.com and that happened at the same time as the digitimes rumor:I talked to him and he said "reluctantly" was a better word.
This had to be the PS3 4000 chassis. Everyone picked apart this rumor and even recently cautioned against using anything in the leak because Digitimes has been wrong in the past but we can check off one correct for the rumor....a new chassis was contracted to be assembled just not a PS4. The error in it's self is telling as it's probable that there were no recognizable "Cell" or PS3 specific hardware features. Check off #2, Sony filed a patent for a depth camera 8 months after the above post and just after OpenMax 1.2 was published. A depth camera is needed with Kinect like controller built in. That only leaves 20 million the first year which I feel is probably accurate as it's something that someone who is contracted to build them would have to know.Sony will have Taiwan-based partners begin production of PlayStation 4 (PS4) featuring body movement-based control like Kinect at the end of 2011 for launch in 2012, according to Taiwan-based component makers.
Foxconn and Pegatron Technology, assemblers of PS3, will undertake assembly of PS4 as well, the sources pointed out.
The planned shipment volume of PS4 in 2012 is at least 20 million units, the sources indicated.
The PS4 is barely designed? I find that hard to believe.
PS2 allowed for the full realization of 3D games. PS1 started 3d gaming, but it looked pretty bad for the most part.
Maybe PS4 will allow for the full realization of HD. Its true a lot of the games are sub 720p and very few are 1080p. Maybe 1080p will be the norm. The problem is with that is, how big of an impact will it really make? A lot of times its hard to even tell the difference. For that reason it may be better to stay with 720p as you be able to increase the graphical fidelity in other areas and increase performance, even though the next consoles will be much more capable at doing 1080p for the majority of games.
x360 and PS3 really brought online gaming to consoles as well. Yes PS2 had some online games like Socom, and xbox went online. But once again it was the "full realization" of it that ps3 and 360 achieved.
The next consoles still need to do a lot more then improve apon the HD resolution of the games.
The CTO of Sony said that most of the things that they wanted in the PS4 is a few years away so I could believe that they haven't put all the pieces that they want in the PS4 together yet & they are still trying to piece the design together with the best parts that will be available to them at the right price for a console.
http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfmIf you're talking about the interview I think you're talking about he never said those things were for PS4.
The CTO of Sony said that most of the things that they wanted in the PS4 is a few years away so I could believe that they haven't put all the pieces that they want in the PS4 together yet & they are still trying to piece the design together with the best parts that will be available to them at the right price for a console.
All very intriguing.
DVD & 3D polygons on PS1 & N64 looked terrible & needed a upgrade asap.
Dreamcast fell victim to being that 1st upgrade when everyone wasn't sure if they needed the upgrade yet, even though it was plain to see. but most people had a I'll wait this out & play my PS1 N64 until the PS2 get here mind set even when the Dreamcast had hit at a good time & a good price.
We're going to have another gen chasing resolution. There is absolutely no way we're going to go through a generation with pixel counts smaller than an iPad, especially with Apple pushing retina laptops and putting a boot firmly up panel manufacturers' butts to get 4k down to where 1080p was at the beginning of this gen.
Yes two for 3D stacking techniques, two medical with one looking like a medical Lab design combining optics and die staining that produces light when hit with a light of various freq. Might be the nanotech technology used for medical purposes "Sony Crystal TV screen" where very small particles change blue light (cheapest highest output inorganic LED) to colors needed by a TV. Combine the nanoparticles with organic binders so that nanoparticles stick to sugar or protein sequences then hit with the proper light frequency and you can better see structures. Staining with a new twist.I'll read through as many patents as I can. Some I just don't understand though.
2) IPTV and digital recording that is all cloud based, for high versatility of content to multiple devices. It allows conversion of not only resolution, but frame rate, fillrate, etc to meet the needs of the device.
3) Not exactly sure, seems like content replacement for hyperlinking. Set top boxes are referenced but that might be just to "cover the bases."
Many others have to do with networking several devices together...
What's with the substrate one? Isn't that used for silicon stacking?
EDIT: The substrate seems to have to do with CMOS and medical imaging related tech. I'm not 100% sure though.
EDIT 2: Several "motion" and "kinect like" features patented.
Yes two for 3D stacking techniques, two medical with one looking like a medical Lab design combining optics and die staining that produces light when hit with a light of various freq. Might be the nanotech technology used for medical purposes "Sony Crystal TV screen" where very small particles change blue light (cheapest highest output inorganic LED) to colors needed by a TV. Combine the nanoparticles with organic binders so that nanoparticles stick to sugar or protein sequences then hit with the proper light frequency and you can better see structures. Staining with a new twist.
Most are Cloud and IPTV information processing. It gives an idea of where Sony is going (Same as the Microsoft Xbox 720 powerpoint). Oh, one is a method to produce two depth maps concurrently, one gross (low res) and one fine (high res) for finger detection.
I know its way to early to really have a clear answer but what do you folks thing is the likely hood that Sony will have an upgradable HDD this time around, not the way MS does mind you. That being said what do you actually expect for HDD size? 500 gigs? 1 TB?
"Yeah, I'll go ahead and buy this $599 console with no games because the ps2 is awesome".
I know its way to early to really have a clear answer but what do you folks thing is the likely hood that Sony will have an upgradable HDD this time around, not the way MS does mind you. That being said what do you actually expect for HDD size? 500 gigs? 1 TB?
Reading up on Xbox 720 rumors but taking everything with a grain of salt it appears (applies to PS4 also) that a small FPGA might be combined with the 8000 series GPU to allow an upgradeable GPU from Direct 11.1 to 12 supporting Ray tracing beyond the limited "Bundled" ray tracing supported by the AMD 8000 series. FPGA only because the standards have not been set in stone so that they can be included in a GPU. First refresh for both should have this included in the GPU. Applies to medical imaging time 1:30 !http://www.examiner.com/article/pachter-ideas-on-xbox-720-ps4-anti-used-gaming-industry-powers-weaknesses said:Pachter said the new consoles from Sony and Microsoft will be out by spring 2014 at the latest, and he does not expect the year head start for the Wii U to be damaging to the sales the next Xbox and Playstation will receive.
"Fall of 2013 at the earliest, spring 2014 at the latest.
"Place a six month window from October 1, 2013 - March 31, 2014 for both launches.
Interesting, although wouldn't be a difference in OpenGL version instead of DX in the PS4?Reading up on Xbox 720 rumors but taking everything with a grain of salt it appears (applies to PS4 also) that a small FPGA might be combined with the 8000 series GPU to allow an upgradeable GPU from Direct 11.1 to 12 supporting Ray tracing beyond the limited "Bundled" ray tracing supported by the AMD 8000 series. FPGA only because the standards have not been set in stone so that they can be included in a GPU. First refresh for both should have this included in the GPU. Applies to medical imaging time 1:30 !
Reading up on Xbox 720 rumors but taking everything with a grain of salt it appears (applies to PS4 also) that a small FPGA might be combined with the 8000 series GPU to allow an upgradeable GPU from Direct 11.1 to 12 supporting Ray tracing beyond the limited "Bundled" ray tracing supported by the AMD 8000 series. FPGA only because the standards have not been set in stone so that they can be included in a GPU. First refresh for both should have this included in the GPU. Applies to medical imaging time 1:30 !
Yes, another reason for some FPGA to tweek the design. DirectX (Direct3D - Direct Compute) might be where Microsoft reluctantly agreed to use the OpenCL - OpenGL standard.Interesting, although wouldn't be a difference in OpenGL version instead of DX in the PS4?
Anyway, I've been expecting a mid range 8000 series in the PS4 with similar clock speeds to what we've been hearing, just with a newer tessellator, among other things. If there's an 8000 series pictairn equivalent I could definitely see that going in.
Yes, I posted it on NeoGAF earlier <grin>, one of the few times I posted first. Edit: Gesh, the one I saw referencing the patent didn't have the examples seen in this one. Really good find and I see you uploaded this patent.onQ123 said:Edit: on a side note have you seen this Sony patent
Patent: Sony wants to convert TV commercials into interactive networked video games with PlayStation Move support
Yes, another reason for some FPGA to tweek the design. DirectX (Direct3D - Direct Compute) might be where Microsoft reluctantly agreed to use the OpenCL - OpenGL standard.
Yes, I posted it on NeoGAF earlier <grin>, one of the few times I posted first.
The changes between Direct3D 11 and 12 -- and 12 isn't close to being finished so there's no way to know everything that this supposed FPGA would ever have to do -- are so architecturally different that you cannot augment the system like that. Even if you could, you would more than double the PCB complexity and memory system to have tracks and pins to the FPGA that'd just sit there doing nothing for long periods of time.Reading up on Xbox 720 rumors but taking everything with a grain of salt it appears (applies to PS4 also) that a small FPGA might be combined with the 8000 series GPU to allow an upgradeable GPU from Direct 11.1 to 12 supporting Ray tracing beyond the limited "Bundled" ray tracing supported by the AMD 8000 series. FPGA only because the standards have not been set in stone so that they can be included in a GPU. First refresh for both should have this included in the GPU. Applies to medical imaging time 1:30 !
Stupid Question on Backward Compatibility.
Let's say the PS4 has it and I tried to play PS3 games that run like shit on PS3, will it run better on the PS4 and eliminate framerate dips and screen tear?
The changes between Direct3D 11 and 12 -- and 12 isn't close to being finished so there's no way to know everything that this supposed FPGA would ever have to do -- are so architecturally different that you cannot augment the system like that. Even if you could, you would more than double the PCB complexity and memory system to have tracks and pins to the FPGA that'd just sit there doing nothing for long periods of time.
No.
Stupid Question on Backward Compatibility.
Let's say the PS4 has it and I tried to play PS3 games that run like shit on PS3, will it run better on the PS4 and eliminate framerate dips and screen tear?
For Microsoft they need a couple of PPC processors in the Xbox 720 so for them it's emulating the GPU and support chips as well as timing. For the PS4, PPC and SPUs would be needed and two of the 2010 Sony Multi-processor patent packages with 1PPU4SPUs for example, would work in a AMD design. GPU and support chips would need to be emulated (timing too). Oh, a PS4 SoC that could emulate a PS3 could also emulate a Xbox 360 but the reverse is not true.If BC was full hardware, then they would be the same. But that almost certainly won't happen, so if there is BC, it will be software emulation (or maybe, software plus some hardware).
With software emulation, it's completely possible to improve on the original. Higher resolutions, faster frame rates. But doing so would impact on compatibility, and could require per-game patches, so is unlikely. Saying that, there are some PSP games that run a bit better on Vita. Powerstone Collection comes to mind, where the slowdown in the game when played on a PSP is gone when playing the same game on a Vita.
The FPGA is just attached to main memory with a multi-processor switch and the 2014 AMD SoC design supports adding multiple different processors. The FPGA is more efficient than the GPU at data base array/vector intersection duties because the 8000 GPU while it natively supports some if-then branching can not efficiently, at this time, do the same. The Ray tracing process takes place in main memory not in the GPU and the GPU would only be used as a highly parallel CPU for this. My understanding is that Shaders in GPUs need some modification in both registers and instructions to efficiently support Ray tracing CPU duties. There are several different ways to do Ray tracing and a standard has not been accepted. PPUs and SPUs can also do Ray tracing vector intersection routines.RYS said:The changes between Direct3D 11 and 12 -- and 12 isn't close to being finished so there's no way to know everything that this supposed FPGA would ever have to do -- are so architecturally different that you cannot augment the system like that. Even if you could, you would more than double the PCB complexity and memory system to have tracks and pins to the FPGA that'd just sit there doing nothing for long periods of time.
No.
Hot chips?Is that a presser or a NDA'd event?I thought for sure we would have some new news by now.
maybe something will pop up at Hot Chips next week about the AMD chips but that's just a shot in the dark.
I thought for sure we would have some new news by now.
maybe something will pop up at Hot Chips next week about the AMD chips but that's just a shot in the dark.
Have you seen the alienware x51?even if it has an external power brick and a larger case than the ps3 the console can look niceI sure hope this thing isn't the size of a pc case.....
"Barely been designed"? I really doubt that.
For Microsoft they need a couple of PPC processors in the Xbox 720 so for them it's emulating the GPU and support chips as well as timing. For the PS4, PPC and SPUs would be needed and two of the 2010 Sony Multi-processor patent packages with 1PPU4SPUs for example, would work in a AMD design. GPU and support chips would need to be emulated (timing too). Oh, a PS4 SoC that could emulate a PS3 could also emulate a Xbox 360 but the reverse is not true.
From microsoft-sony.com and the two rumors that the Xbox 720 and PS4 SoC cores are nearly identical with "Tweeks" for DirectX or OpenGL suggests that they are identical core silicon with two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages with cache added to two 4 Jaguar CPU packages (this only if BC is supported). "Tweeks" can be made with FPGA programming. This would save on R&D.
Ok so now after looking at the schedule i'm expecting something may not be anything idk,i hope jeff_rigby will keep us updated
If sony includes the cell with the ps4 h/w do you think b/c will be possible?You've already been told, numerous time, how this makes no sense.