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[jeff_rigby]

Delayed 16 years till everything in place for XTV or internal issues with management personalities?

Microsoft, Sony plan partnership in multimedia area

Article Abstract:

Sony Corp and Microsoft Corp are announcing a broad partnership to develop hardware and software for interactive TV and other multimedia applications, starting with set-top boxes for video on demand. The venture is also expected to produce other services that rely on new high-speed network technologies and special database server software for the fledgling market. Some of these interactive products are slated to be tested in Microsoft's laboratories later in 1995. Sony and Microsoft say they expect set-top boxes to be ready by 1996, but a Sony insider claims it may take longer. The Sony Microsoft venture is one of the most powerful to date, aimed at exploiting the convergence of entertainment and communications technology. Microsoft spends $100 million annually on the development of interactive technologies and has some pieces of its proposed plan, its Tiger server software, in place.

Author: Clark, Don
Publisher: Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
Publication Name: The Wall Street Journal Western Edition
Subject: Business, general
ISSN: 0193-2241
Year: 1995


Read more: http://www.readabstracts.com/Busine...missed-network-computers.html#b#ixzz22Jb9adXu

Recently we have July 2011 domain registration microsoft-sony.com and then this article promising an announcement that will rock the industry. Is it hardware partnerships where Sony and Microsoft share R&D and designs for core technology in game consoles or is it a multi-media partnership to serve Media in all it's on line forms from XTV and cable companies to Web and Cell phone or both.

My take.

Comparison of digital ecosystems

 

[phosphor112]

I honestly don't see it happening.

 

[jeff_rigby]

An Update to the Microsoft and Sony Agreements

I’ll give an update based on the reply I got from my source. He saw the trouble I was causing and he sent me a message that I should “hold my horses.” There is no way Sony and Microsoft are making a console together. In fact, the communication here isn’t even happening directly face to face. It’s just that Sony and Microsoft are unintentionally agreeing to similar hardware features in their next-gen systems that will put an end to the “arms race/bloodshed”. Apparently, Sony and Microsoft both don’t like that whole race, and the people negotiating in the middle of both of them (the EA’s and Valve’s of the world) definitely don’t like it. It makes their jobs harder. So, basically, it’s getting everyone on board together for common purposes.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

Not liking those rumors. :/

Indeed. That sounds like improper agreements with Sony. In such cases the consumer is always the loser (lowest common denominator).

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

An Update to the Microsoft and Sony Agreements

it really does make sense to do that, imo. As the consumer, I'll have to see whether I care or not.

 

[GoofsterStud]

So is this unintentional agreement in hardware, one using Nvidia hardware and the other using AMD?

 

[onQ123]

An Update to the Microsoft and Sony Agreements

See I told y'all I had the Xbox 3 Station Dev Kit

So is this unintentional agreement in hardware, one using Nvidia hardware and the other using AMD?

Maybe this

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

let the clone wars begin?

 

[KageMaru]

An Update to the Microsoft and Sony Agreements

Anyone who actually thought there was any type of direct agreement was a fool.

Though this does look to be the closest I'll see to my one console future dream, so I'm interested to see what develops from this.

So is this unintentional agreement in hardware, one using Nvidia hardware and the other using AMD?

Both are using AMD. MS is not using Nvidia.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Anyone who actually thought there was any type of direct agreement was a fool.

Though this does look to be the closest I'll see to my one console future dream, so I'm interested to see what develops from this.



Both are using AMD. MS is not using Nvidia.

So then the development kit was a fake after all? Seems odd that it'd have an Nvidia chip when the system is going AMD. I guess I should not believe everything I read.

 

[specialguy]

So then the development kit was a fake after all? Seems odd that it'd have an Nvidia chip when the system is going AMD. I guess I should not believe everything I read.

he's changed his story, says durango is amd card now. check his twitter https://twitter.com/superDaE

he posts this too, start the controversy!

 

[murderofMonkey]

sounds like the situation in the smartphone market.
so the biggest difference will be the os, the console design and the name ?

 

[hodgy100]

man if this same hardware thing is true. It will be good for me because it would be easier to code games, but way to take the fun out of programming for specialised and interesting architectures

 

[Just Lazy]

So many rumours, it's hard to see the wood for the tree's.

Do we know anything for certain? Apart from AMD getting the gig?

 

[CLEEK]

he's changed his story, says durango is amd card now. check his twitter https://twitter.com/superDaE

he posts this too, start the controversy!

Why the fuck does he, and most of the dicks he's replying too, all end most of their Tweets with YOLO?

 

[bgassassin]

I've been out of the loop lately. Bgassassin, you have a source on the inside that is working on the Durango (next xbox)? Do I have this right? May I ask what this person has told you? Can you friend on the inside confirm any of these rumors as authentic?

Haven't heard from him on it even though I sent him a question a couple days ago. But right now it seems that MS is pulling a Nintendo by leaving out key info from their target specs. Makes it tough to know exactly what the GPU is capable of.

So then the development kit was a fake after all? Seems odd that it'd have an Nvidia chip when the system is going AMD. I guess I should not believe everything I read.

The dev kits were always likely to be real and DF apparently confirmed it. It was which companies were providing the chips that was the part in question

An Update to the Microsoft and Sony Agreements

But if this is true, I wonder if "unintentionally" is the correct word? I'd guess "reluctantly" would be more accurate, but I'll see if I can get clarification.

 

[onQ123]

Why the fuck does he, and most of the dicks he's replying too, all end most of their Tweets with YOLO?

Because it's the thing to do. YOLO!

YOLO Flame!

 

[CLEEK]

Because it's the thing to do. YOLO!

Goddammit!

If you ever say YOLO again, I'm going to crawl down your internet pipe, jump out of your monitor and punch you on the nose.

 

[phosphor112]

I honestly don't believe that guy, and that "dev kit" pictures doesn't look like anything special at all. The "code" can be easily faked.

 

[onQ123]

Goddammit!

If you ever say YOLO again, I'm going to crawl down your internet pipe, jump out of your monitor and punch you on the nose.

But what if I turn off my internet when you're 1/2 way here? wouldn't you get stuck in the internet? oh well it's worth a shot you only live once #YOLO!

 

[LastNac]

Hey bg, sorry to bother you but I was wondering if there was any credibility to the one rumour a couple of months back? Could the PS4 be 10x the PS3?

 

[bgassassin]

Hey bg, sorry to bother you but I was wondering if there was any credibility to the one rumour a couple of months back? Could the PS4 be 10x the PS3?

That's Sony's own claim in their target specs apparently so it's true in the sense that Sony says it will be. But there is 10x PS3 in raw power and 10x including efficiency gains.

 

[CLEEK]

But what if I turn off my internet when you're 1/2 way here? wouldn't you get stuck in the internet? oh well it's worth a shot you only live once #YOLO!

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/8/14/cd2067f0-6a0e-4a70-adb4-88bc78138db8.jpg

 

[onQ123]

That's Sony's own claim in their target specs apparently so it's true in the sense that Sony says it will be. But there is 10x PS3 in raw power and 10x including efficiency gains.

they showed 10X the PPU & 10X the GPU but they left out the SPUs & said that the final specs would be 10X the PS3.



that has me thinking that they are not telling everything & there is something else there to make up for the SPUs , maybe there is a co-processor.

 

[jeff_rigby]

But if this is true, I wonder if "unintentionally" is the correct word? I'd guess "reluctantly" would be more accurate, but I'll see if I can get clarification.

More from the same article:

Now, I would really leave this part out, but he did keep on emphasizing this, that a big part of Sony and Microsoft “agreeing” to this is their common desire to exclude Nintendo. By making it easy to port between Microsoft and Sony systems, and making it require extra work to port for Nintendo, it will once again leave Nintendo standing in a corner all alone. I hesitated including this because it makes it more of a “drama” and it’s much easier to find out what Sony and Microsoft are doing than it is to find out what Sony and Microsoft are “feeling.” There is definitely nothing on record that will ever prove Sony and Microsoft have said anything of the sort outright. I guess the most likely scenario for this would be if the publishers came to M and S and demanded they build similar hardware because enough is enough already. It takes too much time and resources to require an extra team for each individual port of a game. It would be better if a developer can work on making one game and the code will essentially work for any system. Microsoft and Sony might have insinuated that they’d agree to hardware features that somehow distance themselves from Nintendo.

It might have been hard for Sony and Microsoft to swallow cooperating with each other, but in their common agenda to make it easier for the developers (and a bit more difficult for Nintendo), they’re going along with it.

I think "unintentionally" is a possible in the sense that AMD is making the core hardware and optimum might be exactly the same.

There is also that if you are supporting an ecosystem including handhelds you need to support those handheld standards. The HSA Foundation allowing distributed processing and easy porting of software requires OpenCL and it has already been accepted by several chip vendors including AMD which we know is making the Xbox hardware. WebGL, WebCL and OpenGLES are also standards everywhere except with Microsoft.

Microsoft is moving to support handhelds and desktop with the same OS so Khronos API standards would dominate not DirectX and Direct Compute. Microsoft browsers might support WebGL soon (my opinion). It doesn't require an agreement between Sony and Microsoft for Microsoft to start supporting embedded (handheld) standards as they have to support them if they want an OS that works from handheld to supercomputer.

There has to be more to this, that goes beyond this as Nintendo also uses Khronos standards and webkit/WebGL. On the other hand it would certainly rock the industry if Microsoft stated that they would support WebGL on their browsers. Microsoft has stated that security has been their issue with WebGL and AMD including ARM A5 CPUs for trustzone (DRM and security) may have resolved that issue. Certainly Microsoft supporting Direct compute should be more of a security issue than WebGL.

Again none of this requires talks between Microsoft and Sony so this implies more but what? Intentional hardware standards? Core hardware the same with Khronos API standards....Accessories; the same I/O standards ports & plugs?

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

they showed 10X the PPU & 10X the GPU but they left out the SPUs & said that the final specs would be 10X the PS3.



that has me thinking that they are not telling everything & there is something else there to make up for the SPUs , maybe there is a co-processor.

Unless there intentionally leaving it out so they can fib and make the 10x as powerful claim. Cause if they include the SPU's then it wouldn't be 10x as powerful. Sony is known to do crap like this. The PS3 flop figures they gave were complete BS.

If there not having a co processor in it, they need to get the CPU above 10x the PPU or GPU above 10x to compensate for the SPU's.

 

[Elios83]

Unless there intentionally leaving it out so they can fib and make the 10x as powerful claim. Cause if they include the SPU's then it wouldn't be 10x as powerful. Sony is known to do crap like this. The PS3 flop figures they gave were complete BS.

If there not having a co processor in it, they need to get the CPU above 10x the PPU or GPU above 10x to compensate for the SPU's.

10X the Cell is completely BS.
10X the PPU + 10X the GPU is a realistic figure, overall considering the SPEs it's 5-6X the PS3, the same target MS has with the next Xbox.

 

[Canis lupus]

What about the gpu though? That definetly will 10X rsx.

 

[jeff_rigby]

10X the Cell is completely BS.
10X the PPU + 10X the GPU is a realistic figure, overall NOT considering the SPEs it's 5-6X the PS3 PPU, the same target MS has with the next Xbox.

Corrected for you and I agree. Edit: pointed out I am not consistent and on second thought Elios83 is correct as far as we can determine with the limited information we have.

Then again if PPUs and SPUs are to be included in a PS4 as co-processors, they can't be in developer platforms until production chips are being made. That leaves speculation on BC and 1PPU4SPU CPU packages (maybe two) being in a PS4 and if SOCs are the same, in a Xbox 720 SoC open ended (possible with no way to confirm or deny). This would be true for all Game console SoC feature differences between Consumer AMD 2014 SoCs and Game console SoCs as mentioned in this cite.

The Jaguar SoC for both consoles will not be the same as the Jaguar SoC for consumers.
AMD Jaguar vs Sony/Microsoft Jaguar
H1 2013 vs H1 2014
LP-DDR3/DDR3 vs DDR4(estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)
For x86 consumer markets vs specialized versions tweaked for each company
HSA 3/4ths vs HSA Complete

The above, needing a different SOC for a game console Vs. a Consumer high end gaming SoC doesn't make sense. It's possible the difference mentioned DDR3 vs DDR4 memory interface is the reason or PPU & SPUs, the latter I think.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Corrected for you and I agree.

Then again if PPUs and SPUs are to be included in a PS4 as co-processors, they can't be in developer platforms until production chips are being made. That leaves speculation on BC and 1PPU4SPU CPU packages (maybe two) being in a PS4 and if SOCs are the same, in a Xbox 720 SoC open ended (possible with no way to confirm or deny). This would be true for all Game console SoC feature differences between Consumer AMD 2014 SoCs and Game console SoCs as mentioned in this cite.

The above, needing a different SOC for a game console Vs. a Consumer high end gaming SoC doesn't make sense. It's possible the difference mentioned DDR3 vs DDR4 memory interface is the reason or PPU & SPUs, the latter I think.

wait am I reading what you corrected wrong? How would PS4 only be 5-6x the PPU in the cell?

10X the Cell is completely BS.
10X the PPU + 10X the GPU is a realistic figure, overall considering the SPEs it's 5-6X the PS3, the same target MS has with the next Xbox.

I have no idea how we're coming up with these 5-6x and 10x as powerful figures but you really think the SPU's are such a factor that even with the GPU being 10x as powerful, all the added efficiency(the gpu may only be 10x the flops, but its also 10x as efficient), and all that increased bandwidth PS4 would bring that it would go down from 10x--->>5-6x? Just because of the SPUs? A factor of 4-5? That how much SPU are worth? That seems a bit much. The SPU are super fast and quite powerful, but not that much. 8x seems more realistic if the other figures are correct no?

 

[jeff_rigby]

wait am I reading what you corrected wrong? How would PS4 only be 5-6x the PPU in the cell?

I don't know and I don't think anyone knows how 1 PPU @ 3.2 Ghz stacks up against 8 Jaguar CPUs @ 1.6 Ghz. It will vary depending on the code. There is little information on Jaguar but more is coming this month.

Followup: we are comparing CPU to CPU and GPU to GPU, that SPUs in the PS3 were used to augment the GPU creates issues that don't allow for easy comparisons. For some code a SPU can only be compared to the FPU/AVX parts of a CPU...it goes beyond me and I get a headache trying to explain due to my ignorance. If just using FPU/AVX a modern SPU could be clock cycle similar to a Jaguar CPU so 4 SPUs @ 3.2 Ghz = 8 Jaguar @ 1.6 only comparing AVX and FPU. For other code SPUs don't compare as favorably, same for older PPU designs.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

I don't know and I don't think anyone knows how 1 PPU @ 3.2 Ghz stacks up against 8 Jaguar CPUs @ 1.6 Ghz. It will vary depending on the code. There is little information on Jaguar but more is coming this month.

Followup: we are comparing CPU to CPU and GPU to GPU, that SPUs in the PS3 were used to augment the GPU creates issues that don't allow for easy comparisons. For some code a SPU can only be compared to the FPU/AVX parts of a CPU...it goes beyond me and I get a headache trying to explain due to my ignorance.

10X the Cell is completely BS.
10X the PPU + 10X the GPU is a realistic figure, overall NOT considering the SPEs it's 5-6X the PS3 PPU, the same target MS has with the next Xbox.

Im still confused by what your saying here. Doesnt seem to make sense. You agree that 10x cells PPU is a realistic figure, but than you say when not considering the SPU's its now only 5-6x the PPU(cell?). kinda contradicting yourself there. Typo? You meant to wright Cell instead of PPU?

 

[Triple U]

I honestly don't believe that guy, and that "dev kit" pictures doesn't look like anything special at all. The "code" can be easily faked.

DF confirmed it with developers they know to have kits.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Im still confused by what your saying here. Doesnt seem to make sense. You agree that 10x cells PPU is a realistic figure, but than you say when not considering the SPU's its now only 5-6x the PPU(cell?). kinda contradicting yourself there. Typo? You mean to right Cell instead of PPU?

Your right and I am confused in how to compare them. It depends on the code. Take my corrections out Elios83 statement and it's logically consistent while my corrections are not. Changing my PPU correction to Cell makes it more accurate but it was confused thinking not typo...thanks for pointing that out.

 

[onQ123]

10X the Cell is completely BS.
10X the PPU + 10X the GPU is a realistic figure, overall considering the SPEs it's 5-6X the PS3, the same target MS has with the next Xbox.

the specs didn't say 10X the Cell it said 10X the PPU & RSX but at the bottom it says that the final specs would be 10X the PS3 & that the specs shown was over 10 months old.

 

[KageMaru]

the specs didn't say 10X the Cell it said 10X the PPU & RSX but at the bottom it says that the final specs would be 10X the PS3 & that the specs shown was over 10 months old.

Not sure why everyone is trying to measure many X times the ps4 will be over the ps3 without putting some context behind the comparison.

Are we talking about memory, FLOP count, etc.? Because so far, the ps4 isn't 10x the ps3 in either of these categories.

It's best not to get hung up on vague multipliers since they are usually meaningless.

 

[Graphics Horse]

At the end of the day the hardware isn't important, the real issue is how much better the games will be. I'm hoping they are at least 3.5 times better.

 

[1-D_FTW]

So then the development kit was a fake after all? Seems odd that it'd have an Nvidia chip when the system is going AMD. I guess I should not believe everything I read.

he's changed his story, says durango is amd card now. check his twitter https://twitter.com/superDaE

he posts this too, start the controversy!

Which isn't surprising. The article that ran specifically stated that while the pictures were confirmed as true, none of their developer sources would confirm the Intel/Nvidia part. So it was always suspect IMO.

 

[phosphor112]

DF confirmed it with developers they know to have kits.

Those same devs that rumored AMD for both CPU and GPU for MS? Why does it have an intel atom with an nvidia card?

 

[KageMaru]

Those same devs that rumored AMD for both CPU and GPU for MS? Why does it have an intel atom with an nvidia card?

It doesn't, he later tweeted that he was probably drunk when he made that tweet.

 

[phosphor112]

It doesn't, he later tweeted that he was probably drunk when he made that tweet.

Sigh, glad DF ran with it!

 

[KageMaru]

Sigh, glad DF ran with it!

DF only confirmed the dev kit was real, not the specs. In fact they question the rumored intel/nvidia specs:

The hardware configuration seems difficult to believe as it is so divorced from the technological make-up of the current Xbox 360, and we could find no corroborative sources to establish the Intel/NVIDIA hook-up, let alone the eight-core CPU.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

"behind again" ?

The PS3 was behind 360 in what way? I don't believe him.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Sigh, glad DF ran with it!

90% of what's being said about the ps4 and xbox3 is probably bs, most people here on gaf or twitter or DF are just parroting each other.

 

[KageMaru]

"behind again" ?

The PS3 was behind 360 in what way? I don't believe him.

He means the ps4 is behind durango.

And the PS3 and 360 are behind each other in various ways btw.

90% of what's being said about the ps4 and xbox3 is probably bs, most people here on gaf or twitter or DF are just parroting each other.

DF claimed they collaborated with devs to confirm the dev kit was real.

I think parroting off of other sites is exactly what they wanted to avoid.

 

[Triple U]

"behind again" ?

The PS3 was behind 360 in what way? I don't believe him.

Well both PS4 and the nextbox were rumored to have undergone changes maybe with the latest change Orbis fell back again.

 

[ekim]

Well both PS4 and the nextbox were rumored to have undergone changes maybe with the latest change Orbis fell back again.

Don't forget the new Sega Orbi console

 

[RoboPlato]

Well both PS4 and the nextbox were rumored to have undergone changes maybe with the latest change Orbis fell back again.

I have a feeling Sony is willing to wait to get the PS4 to market with at least marginally better specs than the next Xbox. If they need to wait they will, if not they'll launch within a couple months of the competition. Sony's own quotes have reflected that they want to have the most powerful hardware, they don't feel pressure to come out ASAP, and they don't seem to be as interested in the whole living room domination as much as Microsoft is. Having better specs would allow them to really focus on the core gamer market, especially since it'll give them an advantage in multiplatform games.

 

[onQ123]

"behind again" ?

The PS3 was behind 360 in what way? I don't believe him.

I think he meant behind as in Xbox is closer to being final & PS4 isn't close to being final.

 

[Nizz]

I think he meant behind as in Xbox is closer to being final & PS4 isn't close to being final.

I want to take it that way as well.