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[Dictator93]

Still, devs should notice the lack of AF in their own games. They probably just ignored the fact.

yeah, definitely

 

[R_Deckard]

I think everyone was positive it was not a "hardware problem" but rather some interfacing with the SDK / API. Which puts the problem either on the dev side for not being thorough and/or Sony for not exposing the control sufficiently.

Edit: the fact the games do not ship on xb1 with the AF accidentally missing points to something being different on Sony's platform confuddling the issue. Either how it is presented or how they point devs on how to implement it.

Wait...isn't this what NXgamer said and you argued with me he was wrong....and now you say the same!!

Hindsight tech guy..love it

 

[vg260]

Is this some kind of wind-up? surely this isn't a thing anyone can actually notice while playing a game rather than staring at an inscrutable corner of one screenshot from a game?

Unless of course you have both consoles set up side by side, playing simultaneously with 4 arms, shouting 'HAH I knew it!' when you spot a slight blur. Then I guess this is a totally valid complaint.

Calling devs 'lazy' because of this total non-issue is just crazy.

It is absolutely noticeable without straining to look for it. You see blurry smudged surfaces in an otherwise crisp looking image when the hardware is capable of preventing that.

 

[Chabbles]

I'm on 1.05 and I can confirm that AF is indeed fixed (or increased)

Nice one Techland! Death to trilinear bs!

 

[-griffy-]

4x AF still means PS4 and Xbox One have issues with AF. You shouldn't have to use low AF in 2015 unless there's a problem with high values of AF, I've been saying this for days now.

That said, Dying Light seems closer to 8x imo, and is indeed a major leap from the prepatch shots. I'd be ok if that was the standard.

The issue at hand is some PS4 versions of games having lower AF than XBO versions of games for some reason. The overall historical and continued trend of console games utilizing low AF values is a separate issue.

 

[ekim]

yeah, definitely

I said it before in here: Let's just say there is something like a "16xAF" flag that can be set and all devkits and debug units (for QA testing) can deal with it but not retail consoles that maybe need another flag like "16xAF Retail" and it is overlooked simply because of this?

 

[ItsTheNew]

Aw man borderlands 2 runs on the unreal engine and it's probably going to look like butt on the ps4 :/

 

[Zil33184]

Did DF hint that they're doing an article about the AF issue in the DmC face-off? I hope they get someone from Techland to comment about the issue if they do.

 

[Dictator93]

Wait...isn't this what NXgamer said and you argued with me he was wrong....and now you say the same!!

Hindsight tech guy..love it

No, he was arguing GNMX left too much room the table due to inefficiency so they had to cut AF.

 

[Metfanant]

curious to see DF run any kid of performance comparison with and without the patch on DL...i bet its negligible, if there even is any...

based on the fact that it was patched into DL like this, really should put to rest any of the ridiculous "PS4 cant do AF" arguments, or the idea that there is something inherently wrong on the hardware front...

def something is getting lost in translation here between engines and the API of the PS4...

 

[Gbraga]

The issue at hand is some PS4 versions of games having lower AF than XBO versions of games for some reason. The overall historical and continued trend of console games utilizing low AF values is a separate issue.

I agree with you, but saying "see, this game has 4xAF, it can't be a platform issue" makes no sense (it would make sense if 16xAF was the norm, which would prove that consoles have no issues at all with any kind of AF). And it was what many people have been using to "defend" the PS4, as it it needed defending, as if bad AF made it any less of a great platform.

I bought a PS4 because they announced Bloodborne, not because they announced 16xAF, it really pisses me off when people get defensive over a console to shield it from valid criticism.

 

[R_Deckard]

No, he was arguing GNMX left too much room the table due to inefficiency so they had to cut AF.

No watch it again, he says that this may have limitations within its feature set and software along with overhead by using the GNMX API.

And I said that errors/mistakes get made with software and these things can and do happen, just funny your stance has now changed that's all!

 

[-griffy-]

I agree with you, but saying "see, this game has 4xAF, it can't be a platform issue" makes no sense (it would make sense if 16xAF was the norm, which would prove that consoles have no issues at all with any kind of AF). And it was what many people have been using to "defend" the PS4, as it it needed defending, as if bad AF made it any less of a great platform.

I bought a PS4 because they announced Bloodborne, not because they announced 16xAF, it really pisses me off when people get defensive over a console to shield it from valid criticism.

But the "issue" people are talking about is AF missing in these specific PS4 games that have it on XBO, which led to drive-by, misinformed meme-like posts of "PS4 can't do AF." Clearly, the PS4 CAN do AF. There are games with 4x, 8x and 16x on the system.

Then there's the notion that the XBO can do AF better than the PS4, which is contradicted by the majority of games that have identical AF on both platforms (and now a game like Dying Light being patched to fix AF), including games that have 4x on both platforms.

Pointing out a game with 4x AF is a valid "defense" of both of those arguments.

Saying 4x is still low is valid, but kind of irrelevant to what the thread is about.

 

[ethomaz]

It was awsered already by a member of ICETeam.

There is nothing wrong with PS4 AF.

 

[Dictator93]

No watch it again, he says that this may have limitations within its feature set and software along with overhead by using the GNMX API.

And I said that errors/mistakes get made with software and these things can and do happen, just funny your stance has now changed that's all!

My stance has always been the same, that the control is not as presentably exposed to devs in a straight forward manner hence dev oversight, otherwise you would see the same thing occuring in xb1 games. I watched the video, he says it is happening due to API inefficincy on GNMX or a "feature set limit." It is not a feature set limit.

No controllable AF in a dx11 styled API? Seriously?

 

[Metfanant]

I agree with you, but saying "see, this game has 4xAF, it can't be a platform issue" makes no sense (it would make sense if 16xAF was the norm, which would prove that consoles have no issues at all with any kind of AF). And it was what many people have been using to "defend" the PS4, as it it needed defending, as if bad AF made it any less of a great platform.

I bought a PS4 because they announced Bloodborne, not because they announced 16xAF, it really pisses me off when people get defensive over a console to shield it from valid criticism.

i dont think MOST people would disagree with you...its obvious that the consoles in general have an "issue" with AF in generally when you look at it from the idea that they should be doing 16x across the board. Even a game like The Order is showing some variable levels of AF...

i think most of the defensiveness stems from the idea that its something inherently wrong with the PS4 and not the Xbone (console warz and what not)..i think YOUR argument is just getting mixed in with that one incorrectly in some people's minds and they are not actually understanding what youre saying...

in their defense however..the argument you are making is not relevant to the discussion in this thread. This wasnt a discussion about why consoles use low levels of AF...its a discussion about why there is a small, but growing number of games on the PS4 that are lacking AF completely when other platforms (even last gen versions) have it.

 

[TheStruggler]

whoever has twitter should tweet techland not only give them props but also ask how they fixed the issue, if sony does not reach out to them because they dont think its a big issue, the players should so we can least tell sony so they can fix this shit or notify other developers

 

[VanWinkle]

It was awsered already by a member of ICETeam.

There is nothing wrong with PS4 AF.

There has to be a reason why there are numerous games that have AF on XB1 and none on PS4. Of course PS4 is capable of having AF. We just want to know why there are these discrepancies, since PS4 is a more powerful platform. It's happened too many times to be a coincidence.

And I don't know if Sony is the one we need to be asking rather than the developers of the games in question.

 

[formasymphonic]

Could this be a middleware thing? I can't see it specifically being a hardware thing when there are many games on PS4 that do have AF and a few without.

Maybe something to do with porting over work from UE3? some weird compatibility thing from going between Direct X and open GL that developers don't notice because they are working on PCs anyway and aren't doing testing for?

I dunno, does anyone know enough about what kind of middleware each of these games are using?

 

[Dictator93]

No watch it again, he says that this may have limitations within its feature set and software along with overhead by using the GNMX API.

And I said that errors/mistakes get made with software and these things can and do happen, just funny your stance has now changed that's all!

My stance has not changed.
And I quote:

"With the GNM API this requires more management and work than the wrapper GNMX, which mimics the DX11 fixed function hardware states, much closer. With this comes more overhead from not only the CPU /GPU but also more bandwidth as it takes care of memory states,functions within each stage from the App to the driver then the hardware. This could have limits on its feature set and performance that is just not the effort spent."

He calls it a feature set limitation (aka no AF control?!) or an API inefficieny where they cannot afford to optimize. He likewise calls GNMX a wrapper?

I have matained that it is an interfacing, explanation problem between the SDK and how it is presented to devs (as well as common dev error).

Edit: my stance throughout this thread has been:

I really think it is something that isnt straight forward, or an easy oversight that many devs have in the SDK. The whole PS3 version has AF but PS4 version stuff points to this the most.

Well, I think it does have to do with "how much care" is given to a game... but even then, you do not see something like 8x or 16x even when it is there.

Yeah this is bizarre and points to something else.

 

[cgcg]

Sure, there is no problem with AF on consoles, not all. Except in The Order, Infamous, KZ:SF, Uncharted, DriveClub and almost any multiplatform game.
Same goes for Xbone one games.

2x-4x AF with some few textures having 8x is not really something You would expect in 2015 or even 2010 to be honest.

---

It breaks in about 70% of distance. With 8x AF You would not notice that, i know, because i was doing 8x to 16x AF comparison in past in few games and there was no visible difference in 99% cases.
Its not as good as 8x, its as bad as 2x, so the only logical one is 4x.

---

What?

Lol so you are clueless about AF and yet you kept yapping about it. Hilarious but not unexpected from you.

 

[R_Deckard]

And I quote:


He calls it a feature set limitation (aka no AF control?!) or an API inefficieny where they cannot afford to optimize. He likewise calls GNMX a wrapper?

I have matained that it is an interfacing, explanation problem between the SDK and how it is presented to devs (as well as common dev error).

Ok I am not clearly as heavily invested in this as you but 2 things.

Yes that quote says that API could have an issue as we are seeing here. And a wrapper is a piece of code or libs that handles conversion from one library set to another, so this is what he is saying GNMX is.

 

[qa_engineer]

There has to be a reason why there are numerous games that have AF on XB1 and PS4. Of course PS4 is capable of having AF. We just want to know why there are these discrepancies, since PS4 is a more powerful platform. It's happened too many times to be a coincidence.

And I don't know if Sony is the one we need to be asking rather than the developers of the games in question.

It's because Xbox one has a discrete gpu in the power brick and PS4 doesn't have a power brick.

 

[Dictator93]

Ok I am not clearly as heavily invested in this as you but 2 things.

Yes that quote says that API could have an issue as we are seeing here. And a wrapper is a piece of code or libs that handles conversion from one library set to another, so this is what he is saying GNMX is.

I became invested in it when you accused me of hypocricy. I have presented evidence that my stance has been consistent throughout this entire thread. If someone calls your integrity into question, you usually become invested.

I know what a wrapper is, I question it, because I have never heard of GNMX being a runtime wrapper that converts DX11 calls.

 

[Elandyll]

I think everyone was positive it was not a "hardware problem" but rather some interfacing with the SDK / API. Which puts the problem either on the dev side for not being thorough and/or Sony for not exposing the control sufficiently.

Edit: the fact the games do not ship on xb1 with the AF accidentally missing points to something being different on Sony's platform confuddling the issue. Either how it is presented or how they point devs on how to implement it.

The right question might be (if said titles were developped with Direct X 11/ PC as lead), WHO provides the tools for porting the games from a Direct X environment to an OpenGL environment? OR -IF- the problem possibly lies between the port of a standard Open GL API -> to the PS4's specific version (which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is not vanilla OpenGL ).

The Graphic Engine providers (UE3& 4/ Chrome 6/ Cry Engine 3...) or Sony with their SDK?

Somehow I don't see Sony being supposed to provide the tools to port games from competing platforms, but I could be wrong (just like I would not see MS providing the tools to port OpenGL stuff over to Direct X when PS4/ Linux is lead). Now IF the problem lies between the "standard" Open GL code -> the PS4's specific version of said OpenGL, that's definitely on Sony's SDK otoh, (as well on the dev's Q&A or unwillinglness to spend the time correcting the issue, as it obviously is possible as Techland just demonstrated with a patch within a month 1/2 or so of release).

I do hope that DF or any other media is getting in touch with Techland and others to try to understand wth is happening.

 

[mintylurb]

It's because Xbox one has a discrete gpu in the power brick and PS4 doesn't have a power brick.

Let's not be ridiculous. It has to be the 4MB L2 cache that effectively increases x1's esram to 36MB.

 

[R_Deckard]

I became invested in it when you accused me of hypocricy. I have presented evidence that my stance has been consistent throughout this entire thread. If someone calls your integrity into question, you usually become invested.

I know what a wrapper is, I question it, because I have never heard of GNMX being a runtime wrapper that converts DX11 calls.

Lets not derail the thread here as we are going OT, an example of your earlier stance was the below:-

That I assumed, especially concerning 60fps. Do you find it odd as a PS4 dev that people are turning it off / limiting it to 4x in games targetting 30fps with high quality textures and complex shading? It seems like the opposite of what I would do if I authored some great 2048X2048 PBR texture.

You said turning it off or limiting it, now you have said it is a Software/API issue, this was my point but again I am not here to argue on that, sorry for any offence.

 

[Dictator93]

You said turning it off or limiting it, now you have said it is a Software/API issue, this was my point but again I am not here to argue on that, sorry for any offence.

That was not my stance, I was responding to Lux (Jux?) in a hypothetical fashion about his saying that AF may be expensive. My stance is detailed in my quotes above (of which there are 3). The ability to limit it is not a software or API issue, rather a choice. It is also referencing a game like the Order or KZSF where they reduce AF often.

In multiplatform games (which is what this thread is about) I think it is oversight in some sense of the word (from either side, dev or sony) and have always thought it was.

And of course, no offense taken. If there is one thing I have problems with, it would be being steadfast in my wrongness at times. Not being a flip flopper.

 

[Gbraga]

i dont think MOST people would disagree with you...its obvious that the consoles in general have an "issue" with AF in generally when you look at it from the idea that they should be doing 16x across the board. Even a game like The Order is showing some variable levels of AF...

i think most of the defensiveness stems from the idea that its something inherently wrong with the PS4 and not the Xbone (console warz and what not)..i think YOUR argument is just getting mixed in with that one incorrectly in some people's minds and they are not actually understanding what youre saying...

in their defense however..the argument you are making is not relevant to the discussion in this thread. This wasnt a discussion about why consoles use low levels of AF...its a discussion about why there is a small, but growing number of games on the PS4 that are lacking AF completely when other platforms (even last gen versions) have it.

Fair enough.

I did went a bit off topic. My original point on the matter was more like "even if it's as simple as Xbone having AF on as default and PS4 off, we should be asking Sony to change this, not every single developer who is making a game on PS4 to pay attention to it.", in response to "this is a dev issue, you shouldn't ask Sony, ask them".

 

[R_Deckard]

That was not my stance, I was responding to Lux (Jux?) in a hypothetical fashion about his saying that AF may be expensive. My stance is detailed in my quotes above (of which there are 3). The ability to limit it is not a software or API issue, rather a choice. It is also referencing a game like the Order or KZSF where they reduce AF often.

In multiplatform games (which is what this thread is about) I think it is oversight in some sense of the word (from either side, dev or sony) and have always thought it was.

And of course, no offense taken. If there is one thing I have problems with, it would be being steadfast in my wrongness at times. Not being a flip flopper.

Fair enough see what you are saying. I think that AF will be an issue on some games for sure and as Jux said as I spoke to him also that it is based on the engine/textures etc so will change from game to game.

 

[Dictator93]

Fair enough see what you are saying. I think that AF will be an issue on some games for sure and as Jux said as I spoke to him also that it is based on the engine/textures etc so will change from game to game.

Yeah. I also see that too as being a thing (even though I scarcely notice the difference on PC of enabling AF in a PBR or non-PBR game).

I will run some tests some time to see the difference of running AF say... in a game with complex shading (the witcher 3, Ryse, Star Citizen, etc.. should be great for this) vs some last gen game like DMC. It would reveal how much more intensive AF is from app to app.

 

[KKRT00]

Lol so you are clueless about AF and yet you kept yapping about it. Hilarious but not unexpected from you.

Sure, i'm cluess, says a guy with console only post history.

Disprove anything i said. Its really simple, launch PC game with quite clear image clarity, similar camera placement in FPP mode and post screenshots from 2x/4x/8x/16x AF.

I've done this in the past in Skyrim thread, i dont have relevant FPP game even installed on PC right now and dont even have time at home to do it. But it is simple!
So if i'm so clueless educate me with examples [which i provided at least in some form already btw] instead of 'yapping'.

 

[cakely]

It's because Xbox one has a discrete gpu in the power brick and PS4 doesn't have a power brick.

Let's not be ridiculous. It has to be the 4MB L2 cache that effectively increases x1's esram to 36MB.

 

[-griffy-]

Sure, i'm cluess, says a guy with console only post history.

Disprove anything i said. Its really simple, launch PC game with quite clear image clarity, similar camera placement in FPP mode and post screenshots from 2x/4x/8x/16x AF.

I've done this in the past in Skyrim thread, i dont have relevant FPP game even installed on PC right now and dont even have time at home to do it. But it is simple!
So if i'm so clueless educate me with examples [which i provided at least in some form already btw] instead of 'yapping'.

You are pushing this a bit far. The point is that the game was patched from no/horrendously low AF to fix the AF and bring it in line with XBO. Trying to complain that it's still low (when in fact it actually looks quite good, certainly above par for a console game), posting other examples and demanding more comparison screenshots to PC is pushing further off topic and redirecting the discussion away from the problem that was in fact fixed.

 

[cgcg]

Hahah you can't even tell if it's 2x, 4x or 8x. I mean it's so easy to tell the patched version is not using 4x AF.

Its not as good as 8x, its as bad as 2x, so the only logical one is 4x.

but keep on yapping about how important AF is to you.

 

[dan2026]

Guys seriously stop bickering amongst yourselves. Its childish and pointless.

Now that techland has fixed dying light, has anyone tried tweeting ninja theory about DmC?

 

[pixlexic]

You pushing this a bit far. The point is that the game was patched from no/horrendously low AF to fix the AF and bring it in line with XBO. Trying to complain that it's still low (when in fact it actually looks quite good, certainly above par for a console game), posting other examples and demanding more comparison screenshots to PC is pushing further off topic and redirecting the discussion away the problem that was in fact fixed.

I wonder if that patch was because of the awareness this thread was bringing?

You are welcome ps4 fans.
Even the ones complaining about this thread.

Spoiler

sorry just had to

 

[Dictator93]

Hahah you can't even tell if it's 2x, 4x or 8x. I mean it's so easy to tell the patched version is not using 4x AF.



but keep on yapping about how important AF is to you.

Easiest way to tell is just have someone load up the game on PC and adjust it in that scene. I don't own the game though... mind you.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Hahah you can't even tell if it's 2x, 4x or 8x. I mean it's so easy to tell the patched version is not using 4x AF.



but keep on yapping about how important AF is to you.

You can't just eyeball texture filtering, different hardware with different drivers filter differently, tellng 4x and 8x apart isn't like telling bilinear and trilinear apart. Not sure what the hell you're trying to say here, like, at all.

 

[R_Deckard]

Yeah. I also see that too as being a thing (even though I scarcely notice the difference on PC of enabling AF in a PBR or non-PBR game).

I will run some tests some time to see the difference of running AF say... in a game with complex shading (the witcher 3, Ryse, Star Citizen, etc.. should be great for this) vs some last gen game like DMC. It would reveal how much more intensive AF is from app to app.

Would be interested in hearing the results, thanks

 

[BradleyLove]

Sure, i'm cluess, says a guy with console only post history.

Disprove anything i said. Its really simple, launch PC game with quite clear image clarity, similar camera placement in FPP mode and post screenshots from 2x/4x/8x/16x AF.

I've done this in the past in Skyrim thread, i dont have relevant FPP game even installed on PC right now and dont even have time at home to do it. But it is simple!
So if i'm so clueless educate me with examples [which i provided at least in some form already btw] instead of 'yapping'.

Console owners like Jon Snow confirmed.

 

[cgcg]

So you are not supposed to see the difference between different AF levels with your eyes? So what's the point then?

Yes different hardware does AF differently but the difference is so slight that it doesn't make 4x on one hardware looking the same as 8x on another. Unless you can give some examples supporting that.

 

[Dictator93]

So you are not supposed to see the difference between different AF levels with your eyes? So what's the point then?

Yes different hardware does AF differently but the difference is so slight that it doesn't make 4x on one hardware looking the same as 8x on another. Unless you can give some examples supporting that.

There was a controversy a number of years ago where the AF on AMD hardware was noticably less hardware intensive than on NV hardware. Long story short, the AF on AMD was of noticably worse quality.

 

[Chabbles]

LOD also improved ?

Spoiler

entire building missing in "before" pic

Edit, Or is that the building you take down during that mission ?

Before

After

 

[omonimo]

Sure, i'm cluess, says a guy with console only post history.

Disprove anything i said. Its really simple, launch PC game with quite clear image clarity, similar camera placement in FPP mode and post screenshots from 2x/4x/8x/16x AF.

I've done this in the past in Skyrim thread, i dont have relevant FPP game even installed on PC right now and dont even have time at home to do it. But it is simple!
So if i'm so clueless educate me with examples [which i provided at least in some form already btw] instead of 'yapping'.

Isn't it completely clueless this sentence?

Before

After

Man, why the others never cared to fix it before? That's embarrassing. So there is a solution.

 

[cgcg]

There was a controversy a number of years ago where the AF on AMD hardware was noticably less hardware intensive than on NV hardware. Long story short, the AF on AMD was of noticably worse quality.

How long ago was that and is it still an issue today?

 

[Dictator93]

How long ago was that and is it still an issue today?

No, (not that I know of at least!). I was just illustrating your point about different hardware doing AF differently.

 

[omonimo]

LOD also improved ?

Spoiler

entire building missing in "before" pic

Edit, Or is that the building you take down during that mission ?

Before

After

Not at all. Where is finished the grass?

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Before

After

I see they've fixed the Architecture Filtering too.

 

[c0de]

I see they've fixed the Architecture Filtering too.

This is even better. It's not only free, it even frees up resources! Game developers are geniuses.