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[Slaythe]

DmC DE ps4 does not have low LOD (I have the game).

It's an AF issue, it never swaps details or textures it's just the angles that are ruining every single texture in the game due to no AF. It can even look bad right next to you and look great by moving the camera only.

Here are the games Qloc handled :

http://www.giantbomb.com/qloc/3010-8439/developed/

Good or not, it still doesn't justify the atrocious looking (in comparison to all other versions, cause the game is beautiful) ps4 DmC they just released.

I don't mind asking them why the PS4 version has no AF and if a patch to fix it is a possibility, but I need buddies or they will just ignore it.

 

[Mabufu]

DmC DE ps4 does not have low LOD (I have the game).

It's an AF issue, it never swaps details or textures it's just the angles that are ruining every single texture in the game due to no AF. It can even look bad right next to you and look great by moving the camera only.

Here are the games Qloc handled :

http://www.giantbomb.com/qloc/3010-8439/developed/

Good or not, it still doesn't justify the atrocious looking (in comparison to all other versions, cause the game is beautiful) ps4 DmC they just released.



I don't mind asking them why the PS4 version has no AF and if a patch to fix it is a possibility, but I need buddies or they will just ignore it.

Do they have twitter? I cant find them : /
I will join the AF claim force.

I just sent them a mail. Asking them what kind of issues they encountered with ps4 version, showing them an exemple, and saying we hoped for a patch, if not that we would love to hear about the development issue on ps4 that forces the removal of AF.

I don't think they have twitter I looked for it too.

contact@q-loc.com

Sending.

 

[Slaythe]

I just sent them a mail. Asking them what kind of issues they encountered with ps4 version, showing them an exemple, and saying we hoped for a patch, if not that we would love to hear about the development issue on ps4 that forces the removal of AF.

I don't think they have twitter I looked for it too.

contact@q-loc.com

edit :

Oh I think DF is already on the case.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I just sent them a mail. Asking them what kind of issues they encountered with ps4 version, showing them an exemple, and saying we hoped for a patch, if not that we would love to hear about the development issue on ps4 that forces the removal of AF.

I don't think they have twitter I looked for it too.

contact@q-loc.com

edit :

Oh I think DF is already on the case.

Digital Foundry?

Link?

 

[thelastword]

And most importantly how more expensive can x16 be compared to x8 ? It just boggles my mind that regular (understand 16xAF) is not standard on consoles.

Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too, but just a few days back it had little and now it has at least 8x, maybe patching it in was more of a manual process, as it stands it looks much better and I don't think 16xAf would have mattered much in this PP filled game.

 

[Chabbles]

I'd say it's gotten worse. At the fence up ahead, there's less foliage.

Good eye. I didnt notice that before.... Its disappointing if foliage had to be removed for the AF(if thats whats happening here), i'd still rather some AF though than none.

 

[Futaba]

Good eye. I didnt notice that before.... Its disappointing if foliage had to be removed for the AF(if thats whats happening here), i'd still rather some AF though than none.

Could that potentially be a map difference, between the destruction of the tower area and prior?, depends on how the games setup i suppose.

 

[-griffy-]

Could that potentially be a map difference, between the destruction of the tower area and prior?, depends on how the games setup i suppose.

The character in the after shot is also standing ever so slightly farther away from the fence, might be the existing LOD in play already. If he moved forward one step that foliage might pop in. I know the LOD on the console versions is supposed to be quite low already, like lower than PC's setting at 0%, so it may just be that.

I supposed we'd need video of someone walking backwards and forwards in the area to see how the foliage fades in and out to know.

 

[pixelbox]

Good eye. I didnt notice that before.... Its disappointing if foliage had to be removed for the AF(if thats whats happening here), i'd still rather some AF though than none.

What I belive that is is that lod version of the plants appearing to be larger due to it using a lower res texture. Using less texture pixels while filtering creates a bigger, blurred image.

 

[pixelbox]

On second look the poster is almost exactly in the same spot. This is a LOD discrepancy. I don't think it's worst, it could possibly be a refinement as the previous LOD is often glitched.

 

[-griffy-]

On second look the poster is almost exactly in the same spot. This is a LOD discrepancy. I don't think it's worst, it could possibly be a refinement as the previous LOD is often glitched.

The XBO received the patch too right? I wonder if that has similar optimizations to LOD, if that's what this is.

 

[pixlexic]

If they did have to lower the lod to get af it could mean that af is in fact more taxing on the bandwidth than we think for the ps4 and devs don't realize it until the end when they do finsl polishing and it's more of a performance choice than having to rework the game last min.

 

[-griffy-]

If they did have to lower the lod to get af it could mean that af is in fact more taxing on the bandwidth than we think for the ps4 and devs don't realize it until the end when they do finsl polishing and it's more of a performance choice than having to rework the game last min.

I don't think we can correlate one with the other without knowing more about what the patch did to every platform.


Some of the patch notes for all versions are:
Technical:
– Improved overall game performance

Visuals:
– Various improvements in world and character art

Which might mean changing foliage density in certain areas, or changing how LOD works.

 

[omonimo]

If they did have to lower the lod to get af it could mean that af is in fact more taxing on the bandwidth than we think for the ps4 and devs don't realize it until the end when they do finsl polishing and it's more of a performance choice than having to rework the game last min.

For the fuck sake. This thing hardly has something to do with the AF improvement. Seriously please we don't restart to assume things without any kinda of evidence.

 

[mintylurb]

For the fuck sake. This thing hardly has something to do with the AF improvement. Seriously please we don't restart to assume things without any kinda of evidence.

This calls for a new thread by pixlexic titled; PS4's bandwidth issue we need answers!!

 

[pixlexic]

This calls for a new thread by pixlexic titled; PS4's bandwidth issue we need answers!!

And maybe more ps4 games will fixed again.

Yay me!!


But seriously it's all speculation until some one comes out of the af closet. But at least bringing awareness to it is making people take notice.

I'm and sorry if people get offendedbecause of.. feelings??

 

[Chabbles]

The foliage is still there. And that building being missing is story related too.

 

[mintylurb]

The foliage is still there. And that building being missing is story related too.

Welp, there goes pixi's potential bw thread.

 

[-griffy-]

The foliage is still there. And that building being missing is story related too.

Okay, so I think the more likely explanation is that in the earlier comparison the character is standing right on the brink of the LOD/draw distance for grass, so in the pre-patch shot he's slightly closer and it's drawn in, and in the post-patch shot he's ever so slightly farther and not all the grass is drawn in.

EDIT: This is getting a bit overboard, but I took the two pics from the earlier comparison and overlaid them on top of each other, and it's very clear that the post-patch pic the tree along the fence is noticeably smaller, confirming that the character is standing farther away from the fence.

 

[Chabbles]

Okay, so I think the more likely explanation is that in the earlier comparison the character is standing right on the brink of the LOD/draw distance for grass, so in the pre-patch shot he's slightly closer and it's drawn in, and in the post-patch shot he's ever so slightly farther and not all the grass is drawn in.

The After shot was at least a couple of feet further back.

Heres another comparison, only difference is lighting. I cant see any noticeable difference.
Before
After

 

[Marlenus]

And maybe more ps4 games will fixed again.

Yay me!!


But seriously it's all speculation until some one comes out of the af closet. But at least bringing awareness to it is making people take notice.

I'm and sorry if people get offendedbecause of.. feelings??

There is speculation that is based in reality and there is speculation which is just pulling stuff out of thin air. The idea that AF is more bandwidth hungry on PS4 is the latter as it is a hardware function and those features on the PS4 GPU are the same as they are on the Xbox One GPU and they are the same as they are on many (all?) GCN PC GPUs.

The more likely reason, which has been mentioned several times, is some default setting that is not being ported correctly. Might be engine related, might be API related my be porting tool related but it seems like a setting is getting missed.

 

[-griffy-]

The After shot was at least a couple of feet further back.

Heres another comparison, only difference is lighting. I cant see any noticeable difference.
Before
After

There we go.

 

[omonimo]

And maybe more ps4 games will fixed again.

Yay me!!


But seriously it's all speculation until some one comes out of the af closet. But at least bringing awareness to it is making people take notice.

I'm and sorry if people get offendedbecause of.. feelings??

I'm not offended. I'm tired to read assumptions based to the nothing. This whole thread it's a good prove. I'm not talking of people who genuinely asking or who tried to explain seriously how works but who trying to build weird theories without to know exactly the matter. That's all.

 

[cgcg]

The foliage is still there. And that building being missing is story related too.

Oh damn, there goes the great concern about PS4 hardware can't handle AF part 2: no grass allowed.

It is to be noted that Alien Isolation also features an in house engine which pushes 16x Anisotropic filtering @ 180p30 & VSync on PS4

Sound like a huge PS4 hardware issue to me.

 

[Elandyll]

Edit: updated as per ethomaz and other recent infos

Update to my listing of games with their engines

Afaik so far, 4 commerical engines and 1 proprietary are known in games that have had problems on PS4:

- Chrome Engine 6 (Dying Light) [edit] Now Fixed by Patch (1.05 - March 10th 2015)
- Cry engine 3 (Evolve)
- Unreal Engine 3 (Thief, Murdered: Soul Suspect, DmC)

Unsure :
- Unreal Engine 4 (Daylight) / Need an XBO version to confirm, but the PS4 version is very lacking vs PC version in AF
- HEX Engine (Strider definitely has AF issues on PS4, but assumed engine used, but not 100%)

- Unfinished Swan Engine (was Gamebryo on PS3, not sure if still the case on PS4)

About UE3, it's a bummer that DF didn't do a Tech Analysis or Face off on Sherlock Holmes Crimes and Punishments, as it is a prominent title that uses UE3. If anyone who has the game can pitch in on the quality of AF there, you are more than welcome.

Also, not sure what engine Saints Row 4 uses (it does have some AF problems on PS4), it probably is an in house engine, but I guess it could also be UE or something else.

Engines known to have had good/ noticeably present AF on PS4:

- IdTech 5 (Wolfenstein TNO, The Evil Within...)
- Frosbite 3 (in house EA engine for DAI, BF4, BF Hardline...)
- Anvil (in house Ubisoft for Assassin's Creed series)
- Disrupt (in house Ubisoft for Watch Dogs)
- Dunia (in house Ubisoft for Far Cry series)
- Lithtech Engine (in house Monolith for Shadow of Mordor)
- Crystal Engine (in house Crystal Dynamic engine for Tomb Raider series)

- No specific problems had been reported (afaik) on the Activision ones (whether COD or Destiny, both using in house engines)

It is to be noted that Alien Isolation also features an in house engine which pushes 16x Anisotropic filtering @ 1080p30 & VSync on PS4 (according to DF/ some very minor fps drops and no tearing throughout thanks to vsync).

 

[Donny]

Sound like a huge PS4 hardware issue to me.

How so?

 

[Gbraga]

How so?

He's joking.

 

[pixlexic]

There is speculation that is based in reality and there is speculation which is just pulling stuff out of thin air. The idea that AF is more bandwidth hungry on PS4 is the latter as it is a hardware function and those features on the PS4 GPU are the same as they are on the Xbox One GPU and they are the same as they are on many (all?) GCN PC GPUs.

The more likely reason, which has been mentioned several times, is some default setting that is not being ported correctly. Might be engine related, might be API related my be porting tool related but it seems like a setting is getting missed.

The ps4 gpu could easily be more bandwidth bloated. There is no dedicated vram. The gpu has to pull texture data from its memmory to proccess it. Everything the gpu does with memory it has to wait for any other calls that were made to that memory before it called that texture to complete. That could be a call from the cpu for example. It's a single source that can only be accessed one call at a time.

Xbone has its esram to hold the frame buffer along with its ddr. That esram memory is not shared with any other hardware in the system. It doesn't have to wait on anything but the gpu to access it.

That's were the difference is. the gpu being the same doesn't matter when the memory set up feeding it is different.


if that's the case or not is a different story I'm sure it differs from game to game how memory is being handled but don't say it's not just because the gpus are the same When the whole memory structure feeding those gpus are different.

 

[shandy706]

I agree.

If you enjoy PC more play your games there....let us enjoy PS4/X1. 8X AF is fine by me.
We started the discussion with lack of AF on PS4, now we have it, but it isnt high enough. You cant please all of GAF.

The guy you quoted said Xbox has no good exclusives in another thread. We only get to enjoy PS4 apparently. trollface.gif

He's new though.

8x AF is certainly not bad, we should be getting it in all games. The hardware is capable.

(I say that having a high-end rig)

 

[Donny]

He's joking.

errr....

 

[omonimo]

The ps4 gpu could easily be more bandwidth bloated. There is no dedicated vram. The gpu has to pull texture data from its memmory to proccess it. Everything the gpu does with memory it has to wait for any other calls that were made to that memory before it called that texture to complete. That could be a call from the cpu for example. It's a single source that can only be accessed one call at a time.

Xbone has its esram to hold the frame buffer along with its ddr. That esram memory is not shared with any other hardware in the system. It doesn't have to wait on anything but the gpu to access it.

That's were the difference is. the gpu being the same doesn't matter when the memory set up feeding it is different.


if that's the case or not is a different story I'm sure it differs from game to game how memory is being handled but don't say it's not just because the gpus are the same When the whole memory structure feeding those gpus are different.

There is not an real disadvantage for the AF in the memory setup on ps4 if you tried to argue that. And I'm not that sure to understand what you tried to say about the latency but the person you quoted know the matter better of you.

 

[cgcg]

Are you saying the Xbone doesn't have pull texture data from its slow ass ddr3 ram?

 

[dan2026]

contact@q-loc.com
Is this the email for the DmC people?

Has anyone got a reply yet?
I will also send them an email.

 

[Marlenus]

The ps4 gpu could easily be more bandwidth bloated. There is no dedicated vram. The gpu has to pull texture data from its memmory to proccess it. Everything the gpu does with memory it has to wait for any other calls that were made to that memory before it called that texture to complete. That could be a call from the cpu for example. It's a single source that can only be accessed one call at a time.

Xbone has its esram to hold the frame buffer along with its ddr. That esram memory is not shared with any other hardware in the system. It doesn't have to wait on anything but the gpu to access it.

That's were the difference is. the gpu being the same doesn't matter when the memory set up feeding it is different.


if that's the case or not is a different story I'm sure it differs from game to game how memory is being handled but don't say it's not just because the gpus are the same When the whole memory structure feeding those gpus are different.

Then why can the a10-7800 APU handle AF just fine? It too shares the memory between gpu and cpu and that only uses DDR3 which is much slower than the PS4 memory system.

Xbox is also in the same boat as textures are too large to store in ESRAM unless you use PRT which has downsides.

Besides your scenario would only increase memory latency for the GPU and have no real impact on bandwidth. GPUs are amazingly latency tolerant though so it will have little if any impact.

 

[thelastword]

Oh damn, there goes the great concern about PS4 hardware can't handle AF part 2: no grass allowed.



Sound like a huge PS4 hardware issue to me.

Yeah A.I, that's another for sure, Sniper elite had pretty good AF as well. It's also 60fps on PS4 does not tear and have more advanced effects over xbone.

 

[pixlexic]

Then why can the a10-7800 APU handle AF just fine? It too shares the memory between gpu and cpu and that only uses DDR3 which is much slower than the PS4 memory system.

Xbox is also in the same boat as textures are too large to store in ESRAM unless you use PRT which has downsides.

Besides your scenario would only increase memory latency for the GPU and have no real impact on bandwidth. GPUs are amazingly latency tolerant though so it will have little if any impact.

Devs can use the esram to perform texture and frame buffer tasks while doing something else with the ddr memory AT THE SAME TIME.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

The ps4 gpu could easily be more bandwidth bloated. There is no dedicated vram. The gpu has to pull texture data from its memmory to proccess it. Everything the gpu does with memory it has to wait for any other calls that were made to that memory before it called that texture to complete. That could be a call from the cpu for example. It's a single source that can only be accessed one call at a time.

Xbone has its esram to hold the frame buffer along with its ddr. That esram memory is not shared with any other hardware in the system. It doesn't have to wait on anything but the gpu to access it.

That's were the difference is. the gpu being the same doesn't matter when the memory set up feeding it is different.


if that's the case or not is a different story I'm sure it differs from game to game how memory is being handled but don't say it's not just because the gpus are the same When the whole memory structure feeding those gpus are different.

Yeah, this is definitely not the case. Again, seems to be an SDK/tools implementation issue. Issue was fixed quickly in Dying light when directly addressed with no noticeable impact to performance (fps) or LOD.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Devs can use the esram to perform texture and frame buffer tasks while doing something else with the ddr memory AT THE SAME TIME.

The main pool of ram is being shared between the CPU and the GPU; plus the ESRAM is also being fed by the main ram. There are a number of bottlenecks potentially present here.

On top of that, bits can't be marked 'volatile' to be worked on simultaneously by both the CPU and GPU without having to be copied back and forth between the 2 like they can be in the PS4. Also, the GPU only has 32 MB of ESRAM that's more likely used as a scratchpad rather than a framebuffer (though it can be used as a framebuffer under certain circumstances).

 

[pixelbox]

The XBO received the patch too right? I wonder if that has similar optimizations to LOD, if that's what this is.

Id bet you it is. The bottom line is that the game has like 8x AF or more at 1080p with relatively similar performance. This is a non-issue and a dev issue, close the thread.

 

[Slaythe]

contact@q-loc.com
Is this the email for the DmC people?

Has anyone got a reply yet?
I will also send them an email.

It should be.



As for the Xbox one esram..... it s so small i dont think any dev would rely on it but okay...

And it doesnt explain why other games that are more demanding visually have no problem on ps4.

 

[riskVSreward]

Devs can use the esram to perform texture and frame buffer tasks while doing something else with the ddr memory AT THE SAME TIME.

Nah, I bet MS unlocked the second layer and are now just showing the Xbox's true power. Much more plausible imo.

 

[ethomaz]

Update to my listing of games with their engines

Afaik so far, 4 engines are known in games that have had problems:

- Chrome Engine 6 (Dying Light) [edit] Now Fixed by Patch (1.05 - March 10th 2015)
- Cry engine 4 (Evolve)
- Unreal Engine 3 (Strider, Thief, Murdered: Soul Suspect, DmC)
- Unreal Engine 4 (Daylight)

- Unfinished Swan Engine (was Gamebryo on PS3, not sure if still the case on PS4)

About UE3, it's a bummer that DF didn't do a Tech Analysis or Face off on Sherlock Holmes Crimes and Punishments, as it is a prominent title that uses UE3. If anyone who has the game can pitch in on the quality of AF there, you are more than welcome.

Also, not sure what engine Saints Row 4 uses (it does have some AF problems on PS4), it probably is an in house engine, but I guess it could also be UE or something else.

Engines known to have had good/ noticeably present AF on PS4:

- IdTech 5 (Wolfenstein TNO, The Evil Within...)
- Frosbite 3 (in house EA engine for DAI, BF4, BF Hardline...)
- Anvil (in house Ubisoft for Assassin's Creed series)
- Disrupt (in house Ubisoft for Watch Dogs)
- Dunia (in house Ubisoft for Far Cry series)
- Lithtech Engine (in house Monolith for Shadow of Mordor)
- Crystal Engine (in house Crystal Dynamic engine for Tomb Raider series)

- No specific problems had been reported (afaik) on the Activision ones (whether COD or Destiny, both using in house engines)

It is to be noted that Alien Isolation also features an in house engine which pushes 16x Anisotropic filtering @ 180p30 & VSync on PS4 (according to DF/ some very minor fps drops and no tearing throughout thanks to vsync).

A friend that don't have a GAF account said that to me in reply to your post.

2 facts are incorrect in this post (and he repeats those errors in previous posts in this thread or others):

- Evolve is done in Cry Engine 3, not 4. source:
http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?528366-What-engine-Evolve-use
- We don't know if Unreal Engine 4 (Daylight) has this problem because we don't have any XB1 version of Daylight. The fact that the PS4 version of Daylight having less anisotropic filtering than PC proves absolutely nothing. Until we have the XB1 (or PS3/ X360) version with higher level of AF compared to PS4 we can't state anything about Unreal Engine 4.

 

[cleveridea]

felt weird buying X1 version of devil may cry in target today when they had both console versions (and I have both consoles)

 

[virtualS]

It should be pretty obvious to all and sundry that this is not and has never been a hardware related issue. Use some common sense.

It is a software couldn't give a shit making sure toggle X results in AF Y on PS4 via middleware or game engine Z issue.

I'm really surprised by this. Do devs not have eyes? Are they not passionate perfectionists about their work? If not, why not?

 

[Majanew]

Okay, so I think the more likely explanation is that in the earlier comparison the character is standing right on the brink of the LOD/draw distance for grass, so in the pre-patch shot he's slightly closer and it's drawn in, and in the post-patch shot he's ever so slightly farther and not all the grass is drawn in.

EDIT: This is getting a bit overboard, but I took the two pics from the earlier comparison and overlaid them on top of each other, and it's very clear that the post-patch pic the tree along the fence is noticeably smaller, confirming that the character is standing farther away from the fence.

Looks like they're standing in almost the exact same spot -- the white debris (whatever it is) near the bottom left is almost the same distance. Looks like LOD could have been changed just enough for AF.

 

[mrklaw]

If they did have to lower the lod to get af it could mean that af is in fact more taxing on the bandwidth than we think for the ps4 and devs don't realize it until the end when they do finsl polishing and it's more of a performance choice than having to rework the game last min.

It's possible, but at 1080p,m30fps (usually) and an equivalent of medium PC settings, there should be enough bandwidth available for AF. What is Ps4 - 176GB/s? That's pretty decent and on par with an R9 285 and not far below the 196Gb/s on a GTX970. Considering those cards can handle high detail settings at 1080p *and* 16x AF, I can't imagine there is any real technical limitation on Ps4 (or XB1 for that matter).

 

[omonimo]

Devs can use the esram to perform texture and frame buffer tasks while doing something else with the ddr memory AT THE SAME TIME.

That's useless to have access at the same time to different memory with slower bandwidth bottlenecked. I don't know how you can think it's even a real advantage for the AF. The only advantages I imagine it's handle different framebuffer simultaneously but I don't know how AF and LOD are favourite in such process with an inferior gpu and pratically the same CPU. It's the first time I heard unified ram it's a disadvantage for graphic filter.
I don't know even the hell we are talking about: really a single shot it's enough to prove a decreased LOD?

 

[UnrealEck]

Yeah A.I, that's another for sure, Sniper elite had pretty good AF as well. It's also 60fps on PS4 does not tear and have more advanced effects over xbone.

Are you talking about Sniper Elite 3? That doesn't run anywhere near 60 FPS on PS4.

 

[-griffy-]

Looks like they're standing in almost the exact same spot -- the white debris (whatever it is) near the bottom left is almost the same distance. Looks like LOD could have been changed just enough for AF.

No, like I said I laid the images over the top of each other and confirmed it: the tree/fence is smaller in the frame and therefore farther away. Chabbles, who posted the original comparison, confirmed the second shot was several feet farther back. I could put both images in After Effects and make an animation demonstrating it, but I really don't feel like putting in the effort to do so.

And again, there's no reason to conclude any change of LOD (that there isn't evidence of) is because of adding AF, and not just changes made in the patch to the game on both platforms.

 

[Majanew]

No, like I said I laid the images over the top of each other and confirmed it: the tree/fence is smaller in the frame and therefore farther away. Chabbles, who posted the original comparison, confirmed the second shot was several feet farther back. I could put both images in After Effects and make an animation demonstrating it, but I really don't feel like putting in the effort to do so.

And again, there's no reason to conclude any change of LOD (that there isn't evidence of) is because of adding AF, and not just changes made in the patch to the game on both platforms.

Dude, look at the markings on the ground. Looks pretty identical with just the angle of the camera slightly off.