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[Freiya]

Oh you mean those trade offs that didn't exist 6 months ago?

I've always been a huge supporter of gaming on Linux and I'm hoping this pushes developers towards Vulkan and Linux.

I just don't get how you can defend something that will potentially destroy a huge benefit on PC for little benefit to the consumer.

I'm really not trying to defend it and I wish you didn't see it that way lol. The only reason I even commented in the first place is because people acted like security is not a legit concern. I mean in a perfect world there would be zero drm and everyone would pay for their shit but that's not how it is. I also don't see modding as some super duper thing that I can't live without. Granted I would expect certain things to not be a problem if modders aren't going to be able to fix it. Durante's work for example should not even be needed in the first place.

If UWP/win10/dx12(totally safe to lump all this shit together) or whatever worked as well as steam and I was getting sli support on my games like I was a year ago then I don't care if it has modding support or not tbh. I wanted to play xbox exclusives on my pc @ 1440p/4k and 60 fps and not my under powered xbox 720p/900p 30 fps bs.

 

[cleveridea]

Yeah, ultimately what I always miss from the opposing side in these discussions is a solid list of reasons why any core PC gamer should desire to support UWP.

"It will be somewhat less of a reduction in functionality at some point in the future" is hardly the most striking of motivaions.

This sounds eminently reasonable.

Well personally I like that I can do the same console-style simple controller based capturing of image and video, given that I play leaning back (ie back from keyboard) using controller in same way console players play games

Thats...the end of the list really. I would always purchase games from alternative platforms where available (same with origin and uplay)

 

[Dictator93]

just an itty bitty little grain, mind you... of salt

I think all the salt is spent if you look at the middle to last 1/4th of this thread. Such ire and rapid posting in response to people expressing their dismay that a ham-fisted, corporate, and expensive piece of shite.

 

[Crayon]

I think all the salt is spent if you look at the middle to last 1/4th of this thread. Such ire and rapid posting in response to people expressing their dismay that a large, corporate, and expensive producte is shite.

I fuckin tried to tell em go easy on the fuckin salt. Now look.

 

[Akronis]

I'm really not trying to defend it and I wish you didn't see it that way lol. The only reason I even commented in the first place is because people acted like security is not a legit concern. I mean in a perfect world there would be zero drm and everyone would pay for their shit but that's not how it is. I also don't see modding as some super duper thing that I can't live without. Granted I would expect certain things to not be a problem if modders aren't going to be able to fix it. Durante's work for example should not even be needed in the first place.

In a perfect world indeed.

It's not a perfect world though. Having Microsoft limit a user's ability to share fixes when developers willfully abandon titles should be enough to know this is a fucking awful idea.

And it's not that fucking difficult to put a toggle and a giant fucking warning about turning off any extra security features. Then everyone wins. People get to mod and people get the extra security if they want. Forcing this on everyone is a huge dick move and will only serve to piss the people off that notice. There aren't going to be people thanking Microsoft for the extra security because those people don't give a shit in the first place. The people who will be making noise are the people that Microsoft just fucked by stepping on a big part of the PC community.

I don't care that you think PC modding isn't a big deal, but it's a huge deal to a lot of people and this is unnecessary for Microsoft's big "security" goal.

 

[Freiya]

What? Mods are huge on PC, the most casual PC players I know did play Skyrim with mods. Same with lets say every moddable game ever. "Most people don't care about mods" is just something someone who has no idea about what PC gaming is would say.

That's your idea of pc gaming. I have 980ti sli @ 1500 and i7 4790k @ 4.6 ghz and 16 gigs of ram. My Idea of pc gaming is enjoying lovely graphics and IQ with nice fps and great gameplay. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading something about mods being supported to a certain extent. I don't think games like skyrim would have a problem. Though I bet skyrim did have a problem with piracy. I can go download skyrim right now and have a blast with all those great mods and not pay a single dime for any of it. Those great pc perks.

In a perfect world indeed.

It's not a perfect world though. Having Microsoft limit a user's ability to share fixes when developers willfully abandon titles should be enough to know this is a fucking awful idea.

And it's not that fucking difficult to put a toggle and a giant fucking warning about turning off any extra security features. Then everyone wins. People get to mod and people get the extra security if they want. Forcing this on everyone is a huge dick move and will only serve to piss the people off that notice. There aren't going to be people thanking Microsoft for the extra security because those people don't give a shit in the first place. The people who will be making noise are the people that Microsoft just fucked by stepping on a big part of the PC community.

I don't care that you think PC modding isn't a big deal, but it's a huge deal to a lot of people and this is unnecessary for Microsoft's big "security" goal.

I only assume that uwp is partly due to security. I have no idea wtf Microsoft is really thinking with their decisions. I know one thing though, your idea wouldn't work. How in the world could toggle security work? all it takes is one person to buy the game, toggle it off and then crack it for everyone else. You are right that "modders" won't thank Microsoft for the extra security though. Devs/pubs will though and so will the people who wouldn't be able to enjoy Microsoft games otherwise.

I have a hard time believing the majority of people playing KI on pc right now and enjoying cross play with xb1 players give 2 shits about being able to mod KI for example.

 

[w0s]

EDIT: I can't read

continue arguing.

 

[GHG]

That's your idea of pc gaming. I have 980ti sli @ 1500 and i7 4790k @ 4.6 ghz and 16 gigs of ram. My Idea of pc gaming is enjoying lovely graphics and IQ with nice fps and great gameplay. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading something about mods being supported to a certain extent. I don't think games like skyrim would have a problem. Though I bet skyrim did have a problem with piracy. I can go download skyrim right now and have a blast with all those great mods and not pay a single dime for any of it. Those great pc perks.

Ironically Skyrim has had such great (and consistently great) sales because of mods. There are even some mods that won't work properly if you are using a pirated copy of the game.

And no, a game like Skyrim would have a huge problem since it's the open nature of the platform that has allowed these mods to come about and enabled the widespread distribution of them.

 

[Akronis]

That's your idea of pc gaming. I have 980ti sli @ 1500 and i7 4790k @ 4.6 ghz and 16 gigs of ram. My Idea of pc gaming is enjoying lovely graphics and IQ with nice fps and great gameplay. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading something about mods being supported to a certain extent. I don't think games like skyrim would have a problem. Though I bet skyrim did have a problem with piracy. I can go download skyrim right now and have a blast with all those great mods and not pay a single dime for any of it. Those great pc perks.

Great non-sequitur buddy. Despite piracy, Skyrim still sold 10 million copies on PC.

Continue to ignore a large part of the PC gaming community and wonder why so many people disagree with your assessment.

 

[Durante]

That's your idea of pc gaming. I have 980ti sli @ 1500 and i7 4790k @ 4.6 ghz and 16 gigs of ram. My Idea of pc gaming is enjoying lovely graphics and IQ with nice fps and great gameplay. I'm also pretty sure I remember reading something about mods being supported to a certain extent. I don't think games like skyrim would have a problem.

Well, I think you have been insufficiently briefed.

Do report back that many of the most popular and complete TES (including, of course, Skyrim) mods fundamentally rely on script extenders, which in turn fundamentally rely on the dangerous and unpredictable nature of the PC platform which UWP seeks to extinguish.

 

[Freiya]

Well, I think you have been insufficiently briefed.

Do report back that many of the most popular and complete TES (including, of course, Skyrim) mods fundamentally rely on script extenders, which in turn fundamentally rely on the dangerous and unpredictable nature of the PC platform which UWP seeks to extinguish.

So phil never said anything about there being mod support in the future?

Great non-sequitur buddy. Despite piracy, Skyrim still sold 10 million copies on PC.

Continue to ignore a large part of the PC gaming community and wonder why so many people disagree with your assessment.

You can claim it sold however many copies you want. Doesn't change the fact that from day one you could download the game for free and enjoy mods without paying a single cent. My point stands

 

[Durante]

So phil never said anything about there being mod support in the future?

No, you don't understand anything I just posted.

 

[Akronis]

So phil never said anything about there being mod support in the future?

He said "sanctioned" mods. That tells us fucking nothing. Sanctioned mods FUNDAMENTALLY GOES AGAINST WHAT MODDING IS ABOUT.

 

[GHG]

So phil never said anything about there being mod support in the future?

Phil Spencer says a lot of things. You just need to take the time to decipher what he is actually saying.

 

[roadrunn3r]

Considering many mods have turned into full games, I don't understand how that can be an argument that no one gives "two shits" about them.

These limitations didn't exist 6 months ago. There is absolutely no reason to believe Microsoft will develop UWA into a bigger or better platform compared to Win32 without giving up features we've had for 20 years. The fact so many people staunchly defend Microsoft for these moves scares the hell out of me.

It's a recent thing I guess that started when previously console only players had the idea to get a PC also and use it the same way they use their console. They don't get the open platform concept as they aren't really into PC gaming, all they want is a powerful box to play some games. This is exactly why the new console iterations are a very good thing. People who need that kind of experience will have a perfect solution to them (powerful closed platform box) and leave PC gaming to people who prefer open platforms and I say this in the least elitist way possible.

 

[Akronis]

It's a recent thing I guess that starts when previously console only players had the idea to get a PC also and use it the same way they use their console. They don't get the open platform concept as they aren't really into PC gaming, all they want is a powerful box to play some games. This is exactly why the new console iterations are a very good thing. People who need that kind of experience will have a perfect solution to them (powerful closed platform box) and leave PC gaming to people who prefer open platforms and I say this in the least elitist way possible.

Agreed. It really just seems like a bunch of random people jumping into PC all fresh and new ready to defend Microsoft for no reason other than "Phil Spencer said some things that I understood and I believe him or something"

Bunch of people with the weakest memories ever as they forget the 12 years of "MICROSOFT PC GAMING" and the absolute fuckfest that it was.

 

[KingBroly]

I get that UWP/A is supposed to be console experiences on PC, but I don't think there's much of a market for that. People get Gaming PC's to play games better on superior hardware. It's the complete opposite of the original Xbox being a 'PC experience on a Console' which, to be honest, I think a lot of people are already sick and tired of (patches, installing, incomplete/buggy launches, etc.).

Unless every digital Xbox game bought is cross-platform with PC on Microsoft's store, they won't move the needle much. And this isn't JUST for exclusives, either. It's for third party stuff as well.

 

[Freiya]

No, you don't understand anything I just posted.

I guess skyrim wouldn't have been a good purchase as a uwp game then.

 

[Akronis]

I guess skyrim wouldn't have been a good purchase as a uwp game then.

Only the most perfectest of perfect games with the most attentive and perfect developers could be marginally argued as a "good" UWA purchase.

 

[aeolist]

I guess skyrim wouldn't have been a good purchase as a uwp game then.

skyrim UWP could still have mod support but it would be far more limited than what you can get right now on steamworks, yes

 

[Trup1aya]

Not worth pursuing because it's getting off-topic. Even if Microsoft's entire goal was to stop piracy with UWA, there are plenty of other ways to do it without affecting core gamers. Denuvo works pretty well and allows injection.



This has such enormous ramifications, I don't know why you are trying go up to bat for this shit.

Lol show me where I "go to bat" for the lack of mods... Or of these other gaming related issues for that matter...

Merely stating the FACT that many of the issues with these Xbox ports aren't due to the premise of UWP. Rather due to limitations that will be fixed, or bad porting.

Add you to list of people in this thread who counter arguments that the persons you are talking to never made...

I don't disagree that the lack of mods is bad for a lot of core gamers... I just understand that in the grand scheme, core gaming is a tiny part of the UWP equation.

 

[GHG]

Only the most perfectest of perfect games with the most attentive and perfect developers could be marginally argued as a "good" UWA purchase.

Even then there are always a few edge cases where a few individuals might require so,e specific workarounds to get a game set up to their liking.

There's simply no place for it at all in PC gaming. There is just no need.

 

[Freiya]

Only the most perfectest of perfect games with the most attentive and perfect developers could be marginally argued as a "good" UWA purchase.

Ki damn sure seems like a good purchase to me. Granted that's the only example I can come up with because that's the only game that will hit 4k 60 fps without sli support and it runs amazingly well.

 

[Freiya]

Lol show me where I "go to bat" for the lack of mods... Or of these other gaming related issues for that matter...

Merely stating the FACT that many of the issues with these Xbox ports aren't due to the premise of UWP. Rather due to limitations that will be fixed, or bad porting.

Add you to list of people in this thread who counter arguments that the persons you are talking to never made...

I don't disagree that the lack of mods is bad for a lot of core gamers... I just understand that in the grand scheme, core gaming is a tiny part of the UWP equation.

I feel like my thinking lines up with what you've been posting. I mean I understand people who want mods are upset but at the end of the day that shit doesn't have anything to do with MS bad decisions regarding the treatment of this port.

 

[dsk1210]

I guess skyrim wouldn't have been a good purchase as a uwp game then.

No, it would not for people who want to improve upon the base game!

 

[michaelius]

So phil never said anything about there being mod support in the future?

Remember when Phil promised us pc games? Yeah we are getting them now.

 

[inner-G]

I guess skyrim wouldn't have been a good purchase as a uwp game then.

Not as good of a purchase as the vanilla version was, no.

Would you have had fun? Yes.
Would you have a severely limited experience? Yes.

 

[GHG]

Lol show me where I "go to bat" for the lack of mods... Or of these other gaming related issues for that matter...

Merely stating the FACT that many of the issues with these Xbox ports aren't due to the premise of UWP. Rather due to limitations that will be fixed, or bad porting.

Add you to list of people in this thread who counter arguments that the persons you are talking to never made...

I don't disagree that the lack of mods is bad for a lot of core gamers... I just understand core gaming is a tiny part of the UWP equation.

As PC gamers why on earth should we care to understand the rest of the UWP equation? All we care about is how the platform is in a gaming context. It's simply not good enough and it is looking like it will never be good enough. But yet we should be sympathetic and understanding because of reasons that won't have any impact on us?

You seem to want to support UWP to the death so why don't you tell us how it will benefit us in the long run?

 

[BabyFaceKillah]

So has anybody from remedy or MS said anything yet?

 

[Peltz]

Pretty shocked that this happened tbh. Did another team handle the port?

 

[Pathfinder]

So has anybody from remedy or MS said anything yet?

Nope.

EDIT: Oops, they have. In the OP. My bad.

 

[Slaythe]

Still haven't received my fucking code.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Nope.

Yes, they have. It's right there in the OP.

 

[Berzerkiymc]

any word of a patch?

 

[dragonlife]

Nope.

It's right in the OP.

 

[vcc]

Lol show me where I "go to bat" for the lack of mods... Or of these other gaming related issues for that matter...

Merely stating the FACT that many of the issues with these Xbox ports aren't due to the premise of UWP. Rather due to limitations that will be fixed, or bad porting.

Add you to list of people in this thread who counter arguments that the persons you are talking to never made...

I don't disagree that the lack of mods is bad for a lot of core gamers... I just understand that in the grand scheme, core gaming is a tiny part of the UWP equation.

Considering the dispersal of current UWP and the w10; core gaming is the bulk of the sales volume. MS hopes someday in the future that core gaming will be a tiny part a thriving closed system but for right now they're just thrashing around hoping the XB1 momentum can be co-opted for their more strategically useful store.

 

[Pathfinder]

Yes, they have. It's right there in the OP.

It's right in the OP.

Shit, you're right. My bad.

 

[GHG]

any word of a patch?

Nope. That would require them to admit there are big problems first.

 

[Kuroknight27]

So Remedy is just looking at how we react, they are not doing anything yet.

 

[GHG]

So Remedy is just looking at how we react, they are not doing anything yet.

They're probably looking at the contract they signed with Microsoft again to see if there is any way they can get out of this and release a win32 version on Steam and GOG.

 

[tuna_love]

They're probably looking at the contract they signed with Microsoft again to see if there is any way they can get out of this and release a win32 version on Steam and GOG.

unfortunately I think ms own the ip

 

[AndyMoogle]

So Remedy is just looking at how we react, they are not doing anything yet.

There won't be a patch unless MS tells them, and pays them, to make one. It's Microsoft's IP, and they have the final word.

 

[nynt9]

RE: importance of modding: If you look at the top 15 games on twitch right now:
LOL - based solely on a mod
CS - based solely on a mod
Hearthstone - based on a franchise who owes its earlier success partially to mods
Overwatch - made in direct competition to a game based on a mod
Dota - sequel to a mod
Blops 3
Warcraft 3 - owes its earlier success partially to mods
The culling - a genre spawned by a mod (DayZ)
Runescape
Smite - a genre spawned by a mod
WoW - based on a franchise who owes its earlier success partially to mods and the game itself is almost always played with UI mods
GTA5 - bustling modding community
The division
Dark souls - only reason it's playable on PC is mods
Minecraft - bustling modding community and probably owes its earlier success to mods
Bonus: Arma 3 - bustling modding community

Yeah, mods are unimportant to PC gaming /s

 

[Corpekata]

Don't think I'd really attribute GTA5 to mods. It certainly isn't hurting, but I'd doubt even like 10 percent of those streams are modded games and the game would clearly be successful even on PC without them.

And besides, Rockstar has a pretty shitty attitude toward mods, frequently breaking them on purpose in the past.

 

[nynt9]

Don't think I'd really attribute GTA5 to mods. It certainly isn't hurting, but I'd doubt even like 10 percent of those streams are modded games.

Whenever I see a GTAV video on YouTube it's modded stuff, so I think there's a decent amount of it. There are entire channels dedicated to stunt courses created via modding, stuff with people goofing off using modified physics etc.

I didn't mean to imply the game would have died without mods.

 

[dr_rus]

They're probably looking at the contract they signed with Microsoft again to see if there is any way they can get out of this and release a win32 version on Steam and GOG.

In the game's current renderer state this won't help much. The game is obviously underperforming for its graphics quality and the severe framepacing issues are likely to be engine related as much as they are UWP related. It just isn't ready to be released on PC yet.

 

[AndyMoogle]

How many of those mods contain keyloggers though? Probably all of them.

 

[Big_Al]

The ONE time I decide to take a chance with Windows Store it's with this game because I love Remedys style.

Thankfully I now have my refund processed, never again Microsoft.

 

[diamount]

RE: importance of modding: If you look at the top 15 games on twitch right now:
LOL - based solely on a mod
CS - based solely on a mod
Hearthstone - based on a franchise who owes its earlier success partially to mods
Overwatch - made in direct competition to a game based on a mod
Dota - sequel to a mod
Blops 3
Warcraft 3 - owes its earlier success partially to mods
The culling - a genre spawned by a mod (DayZ)
Runescape
Smite - a genre spawned by a mod
WoW - based on a franchise who owes its earlier success partially to mods and the game itself is almost always played with UI mods
GTA5 - bustling modding community keeps it going
The division
Dark souls - only reason it's playable on PC is mods
Minecraft - bustling modding community and probably owes its earlier success to mods
Bonus: Arma 3 - bustling modding community

Yeah, mods are unimportant to PC gaming /s

I'm as pro-mod as they come but the inclusion of some of those games is mind boggling. Sure, mobas spawned from a mod but I can safely assume the majority of people who play LoL had never touched dota beforehand. Same goes for any inclusion of mobas - it's just stupid to assume that their sole reason for being popular was because of dota all those years ago.

 

[dmix90]

They're probably looking at the contract they signed with Microsoft again to see if there is any way they can get out of this and release a win32 version on Steam and GOG.

They should first fix what they released already.....
From what i see most of the game problems are not related to UWP.
Their FAQ is simply contains false information( about missing framerate lock for example ) and blames other stuff on distribution platform. I know you are a community manager but you should verify information with your team tech guys before you post it or at least take a look at your own product graphics options.

UWP related problems are GSync\Vsync\FreeSync issues and probably that MS forced them to develop using it and they had no experience with it. In this case they should have said that they dont have enough time to properly learn new platform and port the game and insist on delay for PC version

If those frametime graphs are correct their engine is doing something really awful. It smells like straight console port quickly wrapped to UWP with unlocked graphics options. They even forgot to make an quit button in ui( and that from developers who made comfy couch easter egg in their previous game ),

QA is probably simply missing from all these releases. Sure why you need that if you can assign few PR guys to monitor popular forums?