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[PixyJunket]

Nintendo changing something on their own without anyone outside saying anything before said decision is not book burning.

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

 

[Warxard]

Yep. My thoughts exactly. And you can see it already in many games where the protagonist is some non-offensive bland Average Joe guy that simply possibly can't be taken the wrong. It's sad how far this has gone. Now even different cultures is deemed offensive. Absurd.

Most game writers don't know how to write different cultures without catering to the lowest common denominator.

I mean, that must be the reason why the majority of black male characters in games are large, burly meatheads right?

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

There it is, the 'art' defense.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If your game has a village of natives that does the Native American trope, at least either:

a) be faithful to the tribe you're adapting to

or

b) make it stylistically unique and original as possible.

I think Breath of Fire IV did B very well with the Worent clan.



Sexuality is not bad, no. Bastardizing an already troped-to-hell culture is shitty, none the less. It's 2015, and believe it or not most game developers have grown out of the 'sexy native american' garbage that grew out of american culture.

I personally prefer going with a stylistic adoption with a back story relevant to the game. I dunno how they did it in this game but if it was similar to FF3 I wonder what the response would be. The costume literally looks ridiculous though. How the fuck do you fight in that?

 

[Village]

It's fanservice, the purpose it serves is to be eye candy and there's nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes there is , especially in this case where its just an appropriation of a culture that's been being pushed aside for centuries.

 

[Slayven]

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

Damn those bullies for forcing Nintendo to drop stereotypes.

 

[LordGorchnik]

maybe you should try reading my comment again without your outrage glasses on

No glasses on at all I just found the comment hilarious.

My problem is not with the outfit itself (I think Shantae's awesome).

My only problem with how in Bravely Default the female characters usually get more scantily clad or "cute" costumes when male characters are typically exempt from that. This is especially shown in some of the jobs in the game and bonus outfits you can get. The spell fencer is just the most egregious example of this.

Looking at the male spell fencer costumes I see your thoughts on that. It would have been interesting if the males had a more "revealing" costume but at the same time if we are trying to appropriate this towards a "cultural" theme do male "dancers" in those cultures have those types of outfits? If so that would have been pretty cool to see. But even then would it even be enough. The "most revealing" one I can find is something like this from a movie.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Most game writers don't know how to write different cultures without catering to the lowest common denominator.

I mean, that must be the reason why the majority of black male characters in games are large, burly meatheads right?



There it is, the 'art' defense.

But, games are art. It's a perfectly valid defense.

 

[Tohsaka]

My problem is not with the outfit itself (I think Shantae's awesome).

My only problem with how in Bravely Default the female characters usually get more scantily clad or "cute" costumes when male characters are typically exempt from that. This is especially shown in some of the jobs in the game and bonus outfits you can get. The spell fencer is just the most egregious example of this.

They removed this model from the western version. If you summon someone who has it, they replaced it with the Freelancer outfit.

 

[Puruzi]

goddamnit

 

[Joey Ravn]

Some people forget that the right to self-censor comes hand in hand with the right of free speech. Nintendo is a company and, as such, has the option to remove or alter any aspect of their creative production that it considers unfitting for a certain market. Case in point:

Progressives are becoming the modern day book burners.

I am a quarter (or so) Native American.

Dear white college kids, stop telling everybody else what to be offended by.

You have your own agenda and it shows. It's OK, though. Everyone has their own ideas. The thing you're missing is that Nintendo did this of its own accord. It is more than probable than no white college kids were involved in this decision. If anything, your "ire" should be directed at Nintendo, not anyone else.

Spoiler

You could argue if using "white college kids" as a derogatory term isn't an objectionable act in itself, but you clearly don't give two craps about that discussion, so we better not even touch the matter.

Edit:

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

[Citation needed]

 

[fernoca]

I could understand, but...has it been 100% confirmed it was a complete change and not an additional costume or hat? I mean, the character name's Magnolia and has a magnolia on the hat. So maybe is a new ...something, who knows.

 

[Slayven]

But, games are art. It's a perfectly valid defense.

Then why can't the artist aka nintendo change it if they want to?

 

[Battlechili]

I hope this is just an additional costume, because otherwise, this is a really weird change.
Like, I could see it maybe being done to try and not be offensive, but despite this, it actually winds up more offensive.

Then why can't the artist aka nintendo change it if they want to?

Its not Nintendo. Square Enix Japan originally made the game, and this is a localizer changing it when a version of the game already exists. That's not the same thing as an artist changing his mind on a work.

 

[Alucrid]

No glasses on at all I just found the comment hilarious.



Looking at the male spell fencer costumes I see your thoughts on that. It would have been interesting if the males had a more "revealing" costume but at the same time if we are trying to appropriate this towards a "cultural" theme do male "dancers" in those cultures have those types of outfits? If so that would have been pretty cool to see. But even then would it even be enough. The "most revealing" one I can find is something like this from a movie.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8a/f1/25/8af125e2c0b45863f1573decc8ddff71.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

okay so you just have piss poor reading comprehension then, thanks

 

[Thorgi]

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

Hello, hyperbole.

I should be a little more specific: no one wants to eliminate art. Calling out bad shit in art for being bad is not asking to eliminate it, and people who make exaggerated claims like that actually look way more sensitive than the person rightfully criticizing a piece of art. Art is not infallible.

 

[Nudull]

Damn those bullies for forcing Nintendo to drop stereotypes.

The PC Mafia is everywhere, Slay. Watch your back.

 

[Warxard]

But, games are art. It's a perfectly valid defense.

Not when you're prefacing your argument with bullshit fallacies.

 

[JDSN]

Good to see Nintendo exercising their right of free speech by doing what they want with their art. Thats the american way.

 

[PBalfredo]

The post I was quoting was -

Obviously "Tomahawk" is one step beyond the tastelessness of a pro football team, but there's indeed a middleground and essentially removing the character instead of making tasteful changes while staying Native American is exactly at the 'zero representation' end of the spectrum.

There's no character that's being removed.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Nintendo's recent changes are preemptive measures to avoid bullying from extremist groups that want to eliminate art that disagrees with their delicate sensibilities.

Well, that's...

uh... okay.

I like how we're jumping straight to "extremist bullies" and "delicate sensibilities" for anyone who would maybe look at example of cultural appropriation and say "hey, that's a bit tasteless, huh".

But you clearly have your agenda you want to push here.

 

[chaobreaker]

It's fanservice, the purpose it serves is to be eye candy and there's nothing wrong with that.

In a vacuum it wouldn't, but when 99% of the depictions of native americans in video games is reduced to the mystical native stereotype (Prey, Mortal Kombat) or a RPG class, then there's no surprise that people would find this problematic. That's not even talking about the greater depiction of Native Americans in all other forms of media.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Then why can't the artist aka nintendo change it if they want to?

I didn't say they couldnt. I was just commenting on the snarky reaction to the idea that games being art isn't a valid defense on people attempting to get a company to change its game.

If Nintendo wants to change their game because they feel like it could help them avoid backlash they don't want, they can. I don't like the idea that people can complain about someone else's art until they get them to change it just so that the person complaining will like it more, but if that's what Nintendo wants to do, that's their decision and they're free to make it.

 

[LordGorchnik]

Then why can't the artist aka nintendo change it if they want to?

Nintendo is the publisher/localizer, not the original artist. If you're claiming that Nintendo is exercising their rights of self-censorship as the localizer then just state that but let's not call NoA what they aren't. They didn't design the game and they certainly didn't draw the original costume design.

 

[partyphone]

i love these threads. every single one of them has people with zero self awareness whining over inconsequential changes.

 

[diaspora]

I hope this is just an additional costume, because otherwise, this is a really weird change.
Like, I could see it maybe being done to try and not be offensive, but despite this, it actually winds up more offensive.Its not Nintendo. Square Enix Japan originally made the game, and this is a localizer changing it when a version of the game already exists. That's not the same thing as an artist changing his mind on a work.

SE is giving Nintendo a license to make any changes as they see fit.

 

[Warxard]

Nintendo is the publisher, not the original artist. If you're claiming that Nintendo is exercising their rights of self-censorship as the localizer then just state that but let's not call NoA what they aren't. They didn't design the game and they certainly didn't draw the original costume design.

Square Enix are the ones making the edits to the costumes for NoA though, they gave consent for Nintendo to do whatever. If they didn't well the game wouldn't be localized

 

[Nirolak]

To note, Square Enix overseas and manages the localizations even when Nintendo is publishing.

It's not impossible this direction came from Nintendo, but it's actually most likely Square Enix themselves wanting to change things.

 

[Yasumi]

Sometimes there is , especially in this case where its just an appropriation of a culture that's been being pushed aside for centuries.

Doesn't the main cast receive the clothes from the native character? That's like saying a non-Japanese person wearing a kimono they receive from a Japanese friend is cultural appropriation.

 

[Ninjimbo]

*groans*

Another change. At this point I would rather not know about any of these things just so I don't get frustrated.

 

[Kintaro]

Considering a bunch of native americans were the ones caling for the Washington's team to change their name. Maybe they would be, don't generalize all native Americans because you knew some once. They aren't a damn hive mind. This goes for all peoples, by the way.

No shit sherlock. "Knew some once." LOL.

Obviously, some have issue. Some do, some don't. This particular tribe doesn't take issue. Of course, you're read my local papers and though right? Don't generalize all Native Americans the other way either.

The change to a Cowboy, by the way, could be just as offensive. So, I find THAT part really strange. Cowboys and Indians anyone?

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving this week.

 

[LordJim]

i love these threads. every single one of them has people with zero self awareness whining over inconsequential changes.

They'd rather the changes stop before becoming significant.

 

[diaspora]

To note, Square Enix overseas and manages the localizations even when Nintendo is publishing.

It's not impossible this direction came from Nintendo, but it's actually most likely Square Enix themselves wanting to change things.

True enough, either way this idea of comparing it to book burning and censorship is hilariously idiotic.

They'd rather the changes stop before becoming significant.

Yeah, I mean if we're already trying to change racist outfits and titty sliders, where does it end?

 

[PixyJunket]

Some people forget that the right to self-censor comes hand in hand with the right of free speech. Nintendo is a company and, as such, has the option to remove or alter any aspect of their creative production that it considers unfitting for a certain market.

You wouldn't support this statement if say, a far-right religious group "forced" a company to self-censor a gay character out a book/game/movie, would you?

But you clearly have your agenda you want to push here.

As does everyone in support of altering art to pacify a small number of vocal people, to be fair.

 

[Plywood]

That's kind of a bummer seeing as I'm not big on cowboy outfits and I think the original outfit looks kinda cool.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

*groans*

Another change. At this point I would rather not know about any of these things just so I don't get frustrated.

Well yeah, this is all shit you could sneak past most people anyway. Making whole stories out of them is pointless unless all you're interested in is controversy blowing up.

 

[Sami+]

I see where that Destructoid journalist is going with this, but I still can't get behind the sexy halloween costume Native American class that's literally called Tomahawk. That's just... really in bad taste. The cowboy will probably not be any better but come on.

Some of the jobs costumes in the first Bravely Default were pretty dumb, especially the one's for from the 2 female party members, like the Spell Fencer job.

I'm Arab and I don't see what's wrong with this. Belly dancers look cool.

The proportions are fucking weird tho and they look like kids which makes it kind of uncomfortable but if we're talking cultural appropriation I really don't have a problem with repping Arab dance culture - better than nothing at all which is what we usually get lol.

 

[Jawmuncher]

To note, Square Enix overseas and manages the localizations even when Nintendo is publishing.

It's not impossible this direction came from Nintendo, but it's actually most likely Square Enix themselves wanting to change things.

I still don't get why with the companies it's okay in japan but not anywhere else. If they know they're going to bring the game over why don't they just not put it in the first place.

 

[Tempy]

In a vacuum it wouldn't, but when 99% of the depictions of native americans in video games is reduced to the mystical native stereotype (Prey, Mortal Kombat) or a RPG class, then there's no surprise that people would find this problematic. That's not even talking about the greater depiction of Native Americans in all other forms of media.

But there are no Native Americans in Bravely Default. It has a class system portrayed by outfits. Though I would've expected a tomahawk and/or bow instead of a crossbow if they were following the stereotypes.

 

[Battlechili]

SE is giving Nintendo a license to make any changes as they see fit.

SE is giving Ninteno of America a license to localize it. The implications in how localization works though, is Nintendo of America's?( I don't know who's involved specifically here) job, and all they need is SE's approval. At least that's my understanding of it, anyways. This is not the same as an artist changing their own work. This is like an artist saying "Hey, can you translate this for me for audiences overseas? I'm giving you full control over its release out of country" and then Nintendo of America changes it in release because they feel it could cause problems to be released unedited. Although this specific situation, like I said, is kind of strange because the end result could wind up being more offensive than the original product due to how its been changed and the history involved.

I think this could very well be seen as changing an original artists artistic vision, especially when in likelihood the change wasn't necessary, especially for the audience the localization is for to understand it.

 

[Slayven]

Nintendo is the publisher/localizer, not the original artist. If you're claiming that Nintendo is exercising their rights of self-censorship as the localizer then just state that but let's not call NoA what they aren't. They didn't design the game and they certainly didn't draw the original costume design.

I doubt they could change it with out Squares OK

 

[Ridley327]

To note, Square Enix overseas and manages the localizations even when Nintendo is publishing.

It's not impossible this direction came from Nintendo, but it's actually most likely Square Enix themselves wanting to change things.

Yeah, I think it was said to something along that effect for the first game as well, with Squenix being the ones wanting the character model edits. I think the only game that Squenix was "hands off" on was DQ6, but 8-4 still had to follow the playbook that Squenix established with DQ8.

 

[Doukou]

They should of just renamed it Akecheta or something and make costume look better. Right now it has as much thought as a Halloween costume.

 

[diaspora]

SE is giving Ninteno of America a license to localize it. The implications in how localization works though, is Nintendo of America's job, and all they need is SE's approval. At least that's my understanding of it, anyways. This is not the same as an artist changing their own work. This is like an artist saying "Hey, can you translate this for me for audiences overseas? I'm giving you full control over its release out of country" and then Nintendo of America changes it in release because they feel it could cause problems to be released unedited.

So, they're doing what the artist is allowing them to do.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

But, games are art. It's a perfectly valid defense.

No. They are not. They are products which contain artistic assets but that doesn't make it art itself. Art is something that has meaning, and for a product that's focus tested to shit this certainly doesn't qualify.

The use of "games are art" is just another form of "wah wah don't touch my video games because reasons"

 

[DarknessTear]

I see where that Destructoid journalist is going with this, but I still can't get behind the sexy halloween costume Native American class that's literally called Tomahawk. That's just... really in bad taste. The cowboy will probably not be any better but come on.

Some of the jobs costumes in the first Bravely Default were pretty dumb, especially the one's for from the 2 female party members, like the Spell Fencer job.

What's wrong with this?

 

[PBalfredo]

I guess I'm a bit desensitized since I live near an Indian Reservation (and worked there in the past as well, New Mexico) who seem to be diehead Washington Redskins fans (stickers are everywhere) so I wonder if this tribe would find this the least bit offensive, but whatever.

However, changing it to a Cowboy? You beat the Indian Boss and become a Cowboy? Is this right? Like, really? That's the change? Which is worse here?

Doesn't the main cast receive the clothes from the native character? That's like saying a non-Japanese person wearing a kimono they receive from a Japanese friend is cultural appropriation.

At this point we don't know if the boss has received a similar design change or not.

 

[Teletraan1]

As part Cowboy I find this offensive.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The change is fine and all what I don't get is how it's awful not to butcher the native american culture because of the genocide?

That sounds like backwards logic.

 

[LordJim]

True enough, either way this idea of comparing it to book burning and censorship is hilariously idiotic.



Yeah, I mean if we're already trying to change racist outfits and titty sliders, where does it end?

Maybe aking out Yoga references.
Or making sure non-asian characters cannot wear kimonos.
Cultural appropriation is bad.

 

[Battlechili]

So, they're doing what the artist is allowing them to do.

Being allowed and being the artist's vision aren't the same thing, however. Is it so bad that someone might find this to be unfair to artists/game creators?

No. They are not. They are products which contain artistic assets but that doesn't make it art itself. Art is something that has meaning, and for a product that's focus tested to shit this certainly doesn't qualify.

The use of "games are art" is just another form of "wah wah don't touch my video games because reasons"

What makes games any less art than film? Since when does a game not have intended meaning? How does one say something doesn't have meaning when someone could find meaning in a work such as a game?