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[KingFire]

Well there is a 4th kind, the kind that pirates the game to see if they can actually run the game on their rig and/or to see if they like it. If yes, they will buy it.

I think my post was too simplifying. We can infinite sub groups of pirate who have different motivations and outcomes.

 

[Spaghetti]

i have no idea why developers would use DRM that causes problems with game performance up to and including crashes. you're crippling yourself.

 

[hobblygobbly]

I heard about some new DRM with FIFA 15 and Lords of the Fallen that they haven't been able to bypass, guess this is the name of it.

I don't really see why it's so necessary and why developers pay money for it, it will be bypassed eventually just like everything else has even if it's not immediately done with most games, they must either have some good statistics on people that don't want to wait for a pirate copy and land up buying it any ways out of frustration/impatience/whatever as a result, otherwise things like this doesn't make sense to me. Why would you put time and money into it otherwise? There must be a good % of sales that come out of preventing pirated copies for X time to make something like this a worthwhile approach by developers.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

So this ain't legit?

 

[GrizzleBoy]

i have no idea why developers would use DRM that causes problems with game performance up to and including crashes. you're crippling yourself.

There is almost no software in existence that doesn't have the ability to crash someone's computer.

I'm sure steam doesn't run beautifully on 100% of PCs, in the same way ill assume that Denuvo wont cause performance issues and crashes on 100% of PCs either.

What you're complaining about is a PC thing, not a DRM specific thing.

 

[cripterion]

Not really excited about additional DRM but I own Lords of the Fallen and FIFA15 and I can't say I've had any problem with these (besides Lords of the Fallen crashing because of apex), I didn't even know they had Denovo in it so won't pretend to be outraged by these news.

 

[Kiyo]

i have no idea why developers would use DRM that causes problems with game performance up to and including crashes. you're crippling yourself.

There's no proof that it does. And we can point to Fifa 15 as an example of a game that has this DRM and runs fine. Lords of the Fallen issues were due to PhysX.

 

[Gaogaogao]

I seriously do not understand how this benefits anyone but denuvo.

 

[Enco]

Delay the game a million times - less anticipation
Announce first person mode - more anticipation
DRM revealed - less anticipation

This game is all over the place

 

[Randam]

So this will block mods too?

 

[Gaogaogao]

So this will block mods too?

this wont block a god damn thing

 

[sinxtanx]

lol10

Putting DRM in front of Grand Theft Auto is like putting up a single sheet of A4 paper in front of a rampaging elephant and thinking it's going to work out. I mean these guys just painted the biggest damn target they could on their foreheads

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I seriously do not understand how this benefits anyone but denuvo.

If one pirate buys the game, that benefitted the creators/distributors about £50.

If 1000 pirates buy the game, it benefits them £50000.

If ten thousand buy the game, it benefits them £100000.

Money is a thing and companies like when they get that thing. A lot.

 

[funking giblet]

It is not about getting all pirates to buy the game. It is about getting as many as possible to buy the game.

Generally, pirates can be divided into 3 categories

1) People who would never buy the game.
2) People who would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it
3) People who are willing to wait an X amount of time for a crack. If no crack was developed during that X amount of time, they would buy the game.

Some members here at GAF seem to label all pirates in the first category. They ignore the sales potential of group 2 and 3. One would ask how big these two groups are. It is a difficult question to answer, but I am willing to bet that the executives at Rockstars have more data on this than the gaming community, and that is why they took the decision to include another layer of DRM over Steam.

Rockstar definitely have more data, they would bring in consultants and have in house marketing whose sole role is to figure out how to make money.

 

[CecilRousso]

Is there somewhere where you can read how this DRM actually works? What does it install? What server depedencies are there? Are there any restrictions in activations?

 

[cripterion]

So this will block mods too?

FIFA 15 is moddable so I don't think so.

 

[Gaogaogao]

If one pirate buys the game, that benefitted the creators/distributors about £50.

If 1000 pirates buy the game, it benefits them £50000.

If ten thousand buy the game, it benefits them £100000.

Money is a thing and companies like when they get that thing. A lot.

none of the above is relevant to drm. it just doesn't matter.

 

[funking giblet]

So this ain't legit?

Did you read that? It's obvious nonsense.

 

[RulkezX]

Is there somewhere where you can read how this DRM actually works? What does it install? What server depedencies are there? Are there any restrictions in activations?

It doesn't install anything, I've both games using it already and there was no installation, there are no additional processes running and there is no issue with performance.

Neither game even mentions it. This is outrage over nothing.

 

[Spaghetti]

There is almost no software in existence that doesn't have the ability to crash someone's computer.

I'm sure steam doesn't run beautifully on 100% of PCs, in the same way ill assume that Denuvo wont cause performance issues and crashes on 100% of PCs either.

What you're complaining about is a PC thing, not a DRM specific thing.

There's no proof that it does. And we can point to Fifa 15 as an example of a game that has this DRM and runs fine. Lords of the Fallen issues were due to PhysX.

good god, neogaf does have a defence force for everything after all

 

[serenewarfare]

If one pirate buys the game, that benefitted the creators/distributors about £50.

If 1000 pirates buy the game, it benefits them £50000.

If ten thousand buy the game, it benefits them £100000.

Money is a thing and companies like when they get that thing. A lot.

I think you have a misunderstanding of pirates. If someone wants to pirate it, a majority of the time they'll play it when they can pirate it, whenever that may be. Most pirates don't say "Well, I guess I have to buy it!". Instead, they just don't play it until it's cracked. The people who are willing and able to buy the game typically just do that anyways.

 

[CaptainGyro]

So in summary what are the drawbacks of this? I'm not a pc gamer so I don't know what this changes. Most I do is play on emulators every now and then.

This was more than 5 years ago, so I don't remember all the details, but I once downloaded just a demo that had securom (I didn't know it had it at the time) . After that I would get messages on my pc where the basic gist was that something was not running properly due to the securom. I tried uninstalling with a supposed securom remover but the messages never went away for good so who knows what kind of shit was going on. I don't want any of that shit on my nice newer computer, especially considering I just bought upgrade parts today

 

[RulkezX]

I think you have a misunderstanding of pirates. If someone wants to pirate it, a majority of the time they'll play it when they can pirate it, whenever that may be. Most pirates don't say "Well, I guess I have to buy it!". Instead, they just don't play it until it's cracked. The people who are willing and able to buy the game typically just do that anyways.

And yet Sports Interactive saw a sharp incline in sales in 2013 when FM13 want cracked for 7 months.

 

[Pathfinder]

good god, neogaf does have a defence force for everything after all

You should forgive people for being optimistic that this DRM will go completely unnoticed while playing the game.

After all, there's no concrete evidence that proves it will. Just a lot of speculation.

 

[CecilRousso]

It doesn't install anything, I've both games using it already and there was no installation, there are no additional processes running and there is no issue with performance.

Neither game even mentions it. This is outrage over nothing.

What about server dependencies for installation? Activiation limits?

 

[cripterion]

good god, neogaf does have a defence force for everything after all

Defending what? Some people are saying that they didn't have problems at all with the games where that DRM is included.

As I said, I didn't even know they had them until today. I know fake outrage is a thing nowadays but it's getting tiring. Wait till you hear the game is seriously fucked because of Denuvo before you start casting the game out.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

It is not about getting all pirates to buy the game. It is about getting as many as possible to buy the game.

Generally, pirates can be divided into 3 categories

1) People who would never buy the game.
2) People who would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it
3) People who are willing to wait an X amount of time for a crack. If no crack was developed during that X amount of time, they would buy the game.

Some members here at GAF seem to label all pirates in the first category. They ignore the sales potential of group 2 and 3. One would ask how big these two groups are. It is a difficult question to answer, but I am willing to bet that the executives at Rockstars have more data on this than the gaming community, and that is why they took the decision to include another layer of DRM over Steam.

The 2) and 3) categories are Loch Ness monsters in white whale suits that publishers have been chasing since the shareware days. There's theoretical sales potential, but there's been no proof what-so-ever of it.

 

[Acidote]

Well, one more game I won't buy. And this one hurts.

 

[SparkTR]

One of the reasons I prefer console games and don't play on PC.
The others are: I actually own my physical games and can transfer ownership, within one generation I need no hardware upgrades to run the latest games, I can just insert the disc and play (on PS4 it even installs while you play, so very little waiting the first time you play a new game).

That's like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire for digital games and posterity.

 

[Acinixys]

Do people pirate games that require steam?

Yes

The crack usually bypasses all of steams DRM

 

[RulkezX]

good god, neogaf does have a defence force for everything after all

Faux outrage about something you have zero info about is better?

What about server dependencies for installation? Activiation limits?

Well LotF users Steam and Fifa Origin, so you need to be online when you install anyway, both games work offline and as I previously said there isn't any mention of this DRM, it doesn't install anything on your PC or run any additional processes.

 

[funking giblet]

The 2) and 3) categories are Loch Ness monsters in white whale suits that publishers have been chasing since the shareware days. There's theoretical sales potential, but there's been no proof what-so-ever of it.

I'm sorry but you're talking rubbish. Are you saying then that 100% of potential pirates would never buy if there was an impediment to their piracy?

 

[texhnolyze]

It is not about getting all pirates to buy the game. It is about getting as many as possible to buy the game.

Generally, pirates can be divided into 3 categories

1) People who would never buy the game.
2) People who would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it
3) People who are willing to wait an X amount of time for a crack. If no crack was developed during that X amount of time, they would buy the game.

Some members here at GAF seem to label all pirates in the first category. They ignore the sales potential of group 2 and 3. One would ask how big these two groups are. It is a difficult question to answer, but I am willing to bet that the executives at Rockstars have more data on this than the gaming community, and that is why they took the decision to include another layer of DRM over Steam.

How about people who view pirated games as demo?
They might just want to see if their PC can handle it, or wheter the game has a bad port (as in GTA IV) or just bad. If more devs provide refunds on games like in Origin, I think less people will pirate games.

 

[RulkezX]

The 2) and 3) categories are Loch Ness monsters in white whale suits that publishers have been chasing since the shareware days. There's theoretical sales potential, but there's been no proof what-so-ever of it.

Miles Jacobson and Sega would disagree.

 

[ymmv]

Let's hope someone can crack it, I don't want to waste $40 on non-steam DRM garbage.

So you can then get the game free?

 

[CaptainGyro]

The 2) and 3) categories are Loch Ness monsters in white whale suits that publishers have been chasing since the shareware days. There's theoretical sales potential, but there's been no proof what-so-ever of it.

well I know people that fit those categories but I guess that is anecdotal. I don't agree at all with the idea that they are a myth though

 

[SparkTR]

I'm sorry but you're talking rubbish. Are you saying then that 100% of potential pirates would never buy if there was an impediment to their piracy?

I'm sure the number is insignificant, the vast majority of piracy happens in countries that aren't compatible with the $60 retail model, and the bad word of mouth from the DRM will discourage other potential buyers in western countries. There's never been a case where DRM is linked with increased sales, maybe Diablo 3 could be argued but that was going to be massive no matter what, and it's heavily multiplayer focused. While there's been cases where DRM is linked to decreased sales, namely Ubisoft around AC2 launch where their PC revenue decreased 90% after their new DRM introduction.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

On one hand, I kinda hope this is cracked just as an F U to the people who decided to include extra DRM.

On the other, I think people are completely overreacting by saying they won't buy it without even seeing it in action, since we really don't know anything about how it'll be implemented.

It's made by the people that gave us SecuROM, which was practically malware in many ways. Given that they refer to SecuROM as "best-of-breed". I think there is enough information for people to make a reasoned purchasing decision when it comes to games containing Denuvo. If you ever suffered from SecuROM, why take the risk?

I'm not so worried about it affecting the game as much as I'm worried about what Denuvo will do to my system, like SecuROM before it.

 

[CecilRousso]

Well LotF users Steam and Fifa Origin, so you need to be online when you install anyway, both games work offline and as I previously said there isn't any mention of this DRM, it doesn't install anything on your PC or run any additional processes.

Being online is one thing, but when you buy game with Steam, you're depedent on their servers. Does this DRM mean that you're depedent on additional servers?

And if so, how does that restrict the useage of your purchase? With Steam you can install the game as many times as you want, on as many machines as you want. Does the inclusion of this DRM change that?

 

[SparkTR]

Being online is one thing, but when you buy game with Steam, you're depedent on their servers. Does this DRM mean that you're depedent on additional servers?

And if so, how does that restrict the useage of your purchase? With Steam you can install the game as many times as you want, on as many machines as you want. Does the inclusion of this DRM change that?

Let's put it this way, barely anybody had any idea FIFA15 had any DRM at all (outside of origin) until this news came out. As far as DRM goes, this one seems pretty unobtrusive, no activation limit, no always online, allows mods. You wouldn't notice it unless someone told you it was there.

 

[EventHorizon]

What is intrusive about it?

For one thing DRM has a history of adding bugs and extra inconveniences to the games they are trying to protect.

Second I never liked the idea of games leaving behind their DRM on the computer when not running. Ultimately DRM is technology designed to hide itself, work at a low level, and prevent a perfectly working piece of software from working correctly under certain circumstances. That always made me feel like they were little time bombs waiting to go off. I never wanted to be in a situation where my computer acted funny and have to ask myself "Is that that some bug in the DRM?"

Third, I always feared multiple DRM schemes interfering with one another or with some other piece of software I have installed. I've grown to accept Steam as Valve has won my trust, but that's it. I won't be putting a separate DRM system on my computer for every publisher who wants to the keys to their own castle.

Ultimately, DRM just felt wrong to me on my computer and I felt much better confining it to my dedicated consoles. Then I discovered that I actually like gaming on my console better so there was no reason to go back.

 

[Turin Turambar]

How fast people forget Steam's DRM...

 

[hepburn3d]

If it works without crashing the game, kicking me offline, or when my internet is down, then I have no problem with it at all.

If a developer makes a game they can do what ever they want with it, it's there's after all. If this DRM prevents Rockstar losing any sales and therefore they release all future IPs on PC synchronously with consoles, then I am all for it!

Spoiler

Don't hate me

 

[PetriP-TNT]

How fast people forget Steam's DRM...

Because it works so well and is practically invisible? I agree with you mate!

 

[GrizzleBoy]

So to recap:

Someone doesn't know how this dorm could benefit anyone but denuvo.

I seriously do not understand how this benefits
anyone but denuvo.

I point out very realistic circumstances in which it would benefit Devs/distributors if some who couldn't pirate ended up buying after the game went untracked for a while

If one pirate buys the game, that benefitted the creators/distributors about £50.

If 1000 pirates buy the game, it benefits them £50000.

If ten thousand buy the game, it benefits them £500000.

Money is a thing and companies like when they get that thing. A lot.

But somehow, sales from people who couldn't pirate due to successful DRM, has absolutely nothing to do with DRM.

none of the above is relevant to drm. it just doesn't matter.

I don't even..... what?

I think you have a misunderstanding of pirates. If someone wants to pirate it, a majority of the time they'll play it when they can pirate it, whenever that may be. Most pirates don't say "Well, I guess I have to buy it!". Instead, they just don't play it until it's cracked. The people who are willing and able to buy the game typically just do that anyways.

You're not refuting my point at all. There are millions of pirates. They usually turn out in force for the big name games.

Even if the game only moved 1 million on PC legally or illegally (it'll, do much more), even if only 10% of that million in the wild was pirates and only 1% in that pool of pirates caved after waiting for cracks, that's £500,000 worth of sales made.

In this case your point that "most" pirates wont cave would still be true, but my point that 10000 out of that 100000 pirates who caved would still generate a half of a million in sates still holds true as well.

You're making a point, but that point only serves to be part of the picture I was painting. Not discrediting it.

 

[Kiyo]

Because it works so well and is practically invisible? I agree with you mate!

Steam DRM doesn't work well at all. Games are cracked within minutes of releasing on Steam. If DRM is a necessary evil, shouldn't we be looking for one that's just as invisible as Steam's, but more effective? Who's to say this DRM isn't what we're looking for? Every indication so far is that it's just as invisible, but works.

 

[SparkTR]

Steam DRM doesn't work well at all. Games are cracked within minutes of releasing on Steam. If DRM is a necessary evil, shouldn't we be looking for one that's just as invisible as Steam's, but more effective? Who's to say this DRM isn't what we're looking for?

Steam DRM is extremely effective at stopping day zero piracy, which was a massive breakthrough at the time. Other than that its main function is to not let users copy games to a USB and give it to their friends like in the 90s (though, this is optional, many smaller games do allow that). Though it's true people seem to be jumping the in regards to Denuvo, but they have every right to be skeptical of it, there's no more good will left in regards to publishers and PC DRM.

 

[Pathfinder]

Look at it from Rockstar's point of view. They're a business. Their aim is to make money.

The amount of money they will potentially lose to piracy by not including DRM is SUBSTANTIALLY more than the amount of money they will potentially lose due to the small percentage of gamers who refuse to buy it because of DRM.

So them, it's probably well worth it.

 

[blankempathy]

Steam DRM doesn't work well at all. Games are cracked within minutes of releasing on Steam. If DRM is a necessary evil, shouldn't we be looking for one that's just as invisible as Steam's, but more effective? Who's to say this DRM isn't what we're looking for? Every indication so far is that it's just as invisible, but works.

Works because its been on some low profile releases? Lets see how long it works after GTAV, a game pc gamers have been waiting years for, is out.

 

[twisted89]

Publishers, I have a solution to your problem. Why don't you just make the multiplayer good enough that people actually want to buy your game! I know its a radical idea but I'm sure it'll work and then no more DRM that annoys only loyal customers.