BrokenEchelon
Banned
My copy of Super Mario Galaxy runs great at a downsampled resolution with AA. Thanks for asking!
And your blanket statement about ownership. Jesus christ, lol.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rumor: Grand Theft Auto V will use additional DRM on PC (Steam + Denuvo)
- Thread starter crimsonheadGCN
- Start date
My copy of Super Mario Galaxy runs great at a downsampled resolution with AA. Thanks for asking!
And your blanket statement about ownership. Jesus christ, lol.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
If it doesn't interfere with the games performance and ability to be played when the internet is down in my area, I'll be fine with it. It needs to be a hindrance on pirates, not people who forked out over $50 to a fatty game dev/publisher/corp.
I didn't even think of the multiplayer. Maybe it goes beyond just making sure the game is legit. Jesus, I'm worried. I really hope they don't fuck up with this DRM. The extra two months of development should be enough time for them to make sure it doesn't rape our computers.
I didn't even think of the multiplayer. Maybe it goes beyond just making sure the game is legit. Jesus, I'm worried. I really hope they don't fuck up with this DRM. The extra two months of development should be enough time for them to make sure it doesn't rape our computers.
Which means there are still people that would buy it. Which means profit, regardless of size. A company's goal is to maximize profit and minimize loss.
I don't remember saying a pirated copy is a lost sale. I said if someone is willing to buy the game, but realizes they can pirate it, that's a lost sale.
codswallop
Member
Might want to read your game EULAs. Just having the disc doesn't mean you own it.
I'd challenge your use of often, there. I would hazard a guess that < 10% of failed serious piracy attempts lead to a sale.
I am still wondering why you felt the need to answer a question no one in this thread asked and as a result are now on the verge of derailing it with PC vs Console bullshit like seems to happen in every thread about PC gaming?
PetriP-TNT
Member
* source: (Gut Feeling, 2014 - I have a strong hunch about this. Mental feel. Referenced 11/7/2014)
So any plans of writing a book on this? Because you know I would totally buy it.
Alright, in response I'd estimate that 30% of people who pirate a game would pick it up at some point (whether that be day 1, or later down the line) if they hadn't been given the opportunity to pirate it.
Now where do we go from here? Should we both continue to pull numbers out of our asses based on guesses?
Of course this is assuming that the sales gained by putting in the DRM outweigh the sales lost by people like me who refuse to deal with some of the more intrusive DRM schemes.
Most of this is hypothetical as i doubt anyone could prove it one way or the other, but since companies backing away from DRM has happened before I don't believe that adding DRM to a game is always a net positive.
I never said everyone, chill.
I don't mind DRM given that these criteria are met:
It mustn't have an impact on performance.
It should be non-intrusive.
There should be an offline mode.
PaperFlame
Member
This x 100.
I'm building a PC in a few weeks and now I'm not sure if I should wait to get this game for the PC and just get the ps4 bundle now.
bodyboarder
Member
Pass. Will wait til it's super cheap.
funking giblet
Member
Do people seriously think that if a game could be pirated, that it wouldn't have an affect on sales? If the choice is pirate or buy and both as easy enough, piracy will be the preferred option for many. If a game is popular enough though, people aren't going to wait months for a copy while everyone else plays, so a percentage of those will buy instead just to be able to play.Obviously that isn't everyone, but you are deluded to think it isn't a significant amount either.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131439/keeping_the_pirates_at_bay.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131439/keeping_the_pirates_at_bay.php
dark_inferno
Member
This is how you lose potential customers.
They still dont get it, uh?
They still dont get it, uh?
I agree. It's their responsibility to make DRM the least intrusive it can be for legitimate purchasers of a game. It's a largely necessary evil, particularly for games like GTA V.
I understand the hate towards the DRM concept wholesale, but it really needs to be taken on a case by case basis.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Majority of their sales come from consoles so I can understand why they usually give the middle finger to the PC crowd.
The DRM is a shitty move but when GTA is the most popular game in the world, and almost the most pirated game ever, it is bound to get strict DRM.
Lets look at it another way. When GTA V was released, the PS3 and Xbox 360 were hacked and the game was playable through piracy on these consoles. Yet it still sold a shit ton of copies and broke 6 world records on its launch. Now imagine the sales had the two consoles were free from any piracy.
The last known sales figure puts it at 34 million. Now be realistic, on a PC, it can't really match the sales figure of the console release, even though piracy was there on the consoles too. This is because how rampant and easy piracy is on a PC compared to a console.
Note: I am not supporting this move, just putting a theory on their move to put DRM on their biggest release on PC.
The DRM is a shitty move but when GTA is the most popular game in the world, and almost the most pirated game ever, it is bound to get strict DRM.
Lets look at it another way. When GTA V was released, the PS3 and Xbox 360 were hacked and the game was playable through piracy on these consoles. Yet it still sold a shit ton of copies and broke 6 world records on its launch. Now imagine the sales had the two consoles were free from any piracy.
The last known sales figure puts it at 34 million. Now be realistic, on a PC, it can't really match the sales figure of the console release, even though piracy was there on the consoles too. This is because how rampant and easy piracy is on a PC compared to a console.
Note: I am not supporting this move, just putting a theory on their move to put DRM on their biggest release on PC.
PC gets brought up nearly every time someone asks for console buying advice.
This is a thread about DRM on top of DRM. I think it's no derailment to point out that there are alternatives to playing (and not owning) GTA V on PC with intrusive DRM.
codswallop
Member
If you'd like. Might be a bit messy, though.
There was a study five years ago that showed (with music, at least) that people who pirate are equally as likely, sometimes more likely to buy music as those who don't pirate. Music is possibly a bit different, since even pirating an entire back catalogue can lead to sales in live performances, but the linked study notes that successful piracy and game sales are higher.
Anyway, when I was a poor kid, if the guy selling dodgy, dirt-cheap Amiga games didn't have something I just got something else.
It's a tricky topic for sure, and I certainly don't advocate piracy, but putting in hurdles for legitimate customers rarely works, and shows that new business models are needed as opposed to just making things harder.
lifa-cobex
Member
Create an incentive not to pirate it then
blankempathy
Member
Its a bad day for the legitimate consumer. Pretty soon we'll have to scan an id just to play our damn games.
alexandros
Banned
There's no need to overreact. Apparently this DRM has been already used in fifa and lords of the fallen and there didn't seem to be any problems with those games. It may be benign.
That's what Rockstar Games are doing. If their DRM works out, the incentive to not pirate it will be the ability to play the game.
Every time I enter a store and I see anti-theft devices I walk the fuck back out. I'm not a thief, and I don't think I should be treated as one.
Said no-one ever. If security is non-intrusive people won't mind.
Edit: Eugh, double post. Sorry about that.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Games usually do their biggest numbers during release date hype.
Hype can make people do stupid things and make them spend money they didn't even want or expect to.
Even IF it takes a month or two to be cracked, that's two months of impatient pirates waiting day after day for a crack, not seeing it and possibly caving.
Even if that works for only 1000 pirates who couldn't hold out, £50x1000=£50,000.
Now, since this is GTA, this game could easily shift a million units on PC in a few months. Probably even more. Steam has many multiple million concurrent users online at any time.
If we assume that only 1% of those million units come from people who would pirate, but can't and give in to the hype or simply dont mind paying for a GRA game if they can't pirate it, that's 10,000 people. £100,000 in sales.
If theres a chance to not throw away tens or hundreds of thousands of <insert currency>, they wont.
Money is money.
Hype can make people do stupid things and make them spend money they didn't even want or expect to.
Even IF it takes a month or two to be cracked, that's two months of impatient pirates waiting day after day for a crack, not seeing it and possibly caving.
Even if that works for only 1000 pirates who couldn't hold out, £50x1000=£50,000.
Now, since this is GTA, this game could easily shift a million units on PC in a few months. Probably even more. Steam has many multiple million concurrent users online at any time.
If we assume that only 1% of those million units come from people who would pirate, but can't and give in to the hype or simply dont mind paying for a GRA game if they can't pirate it, that's 10,000 people. £100,000 in sales.
If theres a chance to not throw away tens or hundreds of thousands of <insert currency>, they wont.
Money is money.
Uh huh except that none of the following has anything to do with pointing out that the console versions of GTA5 are an option
or maybe I am missing something because all I see is you giving reasons why you like consoles more.
You'd never enter the store again if that anti-theft device was shoved up your arse without your consent.
I suppose this is where assumptions are made with no facts. This is more of a discussion then (so i'm not really arguing). I would personally assume that the number of people who refuse to buy the game because of it's DRM would be much less than the pirates who want the game, can't pirate it, and end up buying it.
If it's a DRM like Uplay then i would agree, because that shit is annoying. Denuvo isn't as intrusive and interfering so it's not too much of an issue in my opinion.
I would also assume that the reason companies shift away from DRM is because it can all be bypassed unless it's a multiplayer game or has an always online feature, and it's annoying for the people who actually bought the game. But again, i have no facts to back that up. But when the time comes where Denuvo can be bypassed, i will then question why companies are using it. Right now it seems like a good decision to me.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
This.
People think EA could release a game with a DRM system that is broken and not have multiple threads and news articles about it, shottingnall,overmEA talking about worse company in America blah blah blah?
Really?
GAF pls.......
The DRM has been working silently up until now. I doubt it will all of a sudden start exploding PCs.
EventHorizon
Member
Funny. My last post on NeoGaf was yesterday saying that the one issue I'd "vote with my wallet" on was intrusive DRM. Doesn't make a difference to me now since DRM like this is one of the reasons I got out of PC gaming.
Pathfinder
Member
I can't help but think this thread is going to be great to look back on if mods end up still being possible and the DRM doesn't affect stability or gameplay whatsoever.
blankempathy
Member
You know what I do when I store hassles me and treats me like I'm a thief in the making? I stop going there. However security tags aren't specifically targeting you. They're a general anti theft device and so much a non issue and not even relevant to this. Plus they don't make customers upset and or want to steal said protected item more because somehow stealing and not getting caught is less of a hassle then simply buying the item at the register.. They're an actual deterrent for thieves. Gaming drm however is a different story. It treats all customers like they're thieves. Time and time again its been shown that drm causes piracy due to people wanting to pirate out of spite and or convenience. It benefits no one except for the company behind it and even then its anti consumer so it can have the opposite effect. Pirates are always going to find a way around it. They pretty much always do. So how does this drm stop them hmm? Its merely an annoyance they can remedy. Legitimate consumers can't and have to deal with it.
Cry me a river. The melodramatics that DRM seems to inspire are incredible.
alexandros
Banned
What is intrusive about it?
Juke Joint Jezebel
Member
I'll be fine with this DRM as long as it meets these requirements:-
* Doesn't require me to log into it every time I boot up the game.
* Doesn't limit my installs.
* Allows me to play the game if I go offline, or get disconnected.
* Doesn't interfere with mods or custom fixes.
Anybody have experience with Denvuo on PC in the past that can confirm how this DRM performs?
* Doesn't require me to log into it every time I boot up the game.
* Doesn't limit my installs.
* Allows me to play the game if I go offline, or get disconnected.
* Doesn't interfere with mods or custom fixes.
Anybody have experience with Denvuo on PC in the past that can confirm how this DRM performs?
It is not about getting all pirates to buy the game. It is about getting as many as possible to buy the game.
Generally, pirates can be divided into 3 categories
1) People who would never buy the game.
2) People who would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it
3) People who are willing to wait an X amount of time for a crack. If no crack was developed during that X amount of time, they would buy the game.
Some members here at GAF seem to label all pirates in the first category. They ignore the sales potential of group 2 and 3. One would ask how big these two groups are. It is a difficult question to answer, but I am willing to bet that the executives at Rockstars have more data on this than the gaming community, and that is why they took the decision to include another layer of DRM over Steam.
Generally, pirates can be divided into 3 categories
1) People who would never buy the game.
2) People who would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it
3) People who are willing to wait an X amount of time for a crack. If no crack was developed during that X amount of time, they would buy the game.
Some members here at GAF seem to label all pirates in the first category. They ignore the sales potential of group 2 and 3. One would ask how big these two groups are. It is a difficult question to answer, but I am willing to bet that the executives at Rockstars have more data on this than the gaming community, and that is why they took the decision to include another layer of DRM over Steam.
You don't have to "deal" with DRM any more than you have to deal with those security cameras.
It's not impacting you and like the cameras it's there to make sure that the assholes don't get away with stealing shit.
Stop with the "they're treating us like criminals!" bullshit. You're not being "treated" like anything because if you're NOT a pirate, the DRM doesn't impact you. The only people being treated like criminals are - SHOCK - the criminals.
keltickennedy
Member
I'm curious if anyone here has a better view on how to stop people from pirating a game? Serious question....not trying to be a prick.
I guess this gives at least a bit of time for pc players to play the game online before hackers mess everything up.
I guess this gives at least a bit of time for pc players to play the game online before hackers mess everything up.
blankempathy
Member
Right because all drm works flawlessly right?
lordfuzzybutt
Member
Well there is a 4th kind, the kind that pirates the game to see if they can actually run the game on their rig and/or to see if they like it. If yes, they will buy it.
What?
I bought GTA IV legally from Steam when it launched, and due to SecuROM, GFWL and Rockstar Social Club I couldn't even play the game properly. Guess how I figured out a way?
What rubbish.
[EDIT: I will clear it up right now, if this DRM is implemented properly then I have no issues with it, but the second it causes me a headache I'll be pissed.]
blankempathy
Member
You're never going to stop piracy. Its just not going to happen. However you treat your customers with respect and give them an incentive to buy your games legitimately. Its like any store really. You're bound to get repeat business, even if your prices aren't the lowest, If you are good to your customers. The problem is when you have people so out of touch at the top of the company calling shots. Customers aren't people to them. They're just statistics and numbers.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Most peoples responses will either lead to a conclusion of just letting piracy happen as long as it doesn't affect them or having companies design games in a way that has everything based on online game play, leading to the shallow single player depth of game play that so many games suffer from already.
Well I think that people tend to underestimate the numbers of people who really dislike DRM. Though of course I am basing that mostly off of if the publishers had strong evidence that strong DRM increased sales no amount of bitching from people like me would of got companies to have backed down in the past. Which I admit might be flawed reasoning.
Anyway I personally thing it is too early to come to any conclusion of how intrusive the DRM is or isn't at this point in time. As only two games have used it and until we know how they preform without the DRM we have nothing to compare it to. It will also take some time for people to dig into it and find out just what exactly it does.
I can see why companies seem to be drawn to DRM like this i just think that in the long run you will catch more flies with honey(like officially supporting modding and the like) then you do with vinegar.