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[Tovarisc]

Edit: Call your senators, plus read this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1337974

Senate Democrats are weighing whether to bring the chamber's business to a halt next week in an effort to voice their objections to the GOP health care push, according to sources familiar with the effort.

The Democratic leadership and rank-and-file members are planning to prevent the chamber from conducting routine business, including allowing committees to meet for extended hearings when the Senate is in session. And they will demand an open process to consider health care when the Senate reconvenes Monday.

If carried through, the hardball tactics would make it difficult for Republicans to schedule votes even on uncontroversial bills and nominees, further slowing down the already slow-moving body.

But other Democrats said they wanted to escalate the fight to give more prominence to the GOP's closed-door process of drafting health care legislation, which Republican leaders want to pass by month's end.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/17/p...p-health-care0805PMVODtopLink&linkId=38812372

GOP is rewriting health care plan behind closed doors, even people working on it doesn't know whole picture. Their plan is to piece it together and ram it through before Democrats and public can have actual look at it.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Do it. Give those monsters no quarter.

 

[jackissocool]

How is this even a debate?

Could the democrats be more fucking spineless? Shut this shit down!

 

[Lastgengamer]

"GOP is rewriting health care plan behind closed doors, even people working on it doesn't know whole picture. Their plan is to piece it together and ram it through before Democrats and public can have actual look at it."

By the people, who want poor people dead.

May they have to answer for this someday.

 

[Ludovico]

If there was ever a hill to die on, this is definitely it.
Hoping the Dems fight this tooth and nail. Get the details of this clusterfuck all out in the open - the cruelty, the secrecy, and the indefensible moves of this bill should be plastered across all news venues and mediums.

 

[kirblar]

How is this even a debate?

Could the democrats be more fucking spineless? Shut this shit down!

They needed to get the Russia sanctions passed before doing this.

The problem is that without a bill submitted to the CBO they are fighting phantoms.

It's not about having a Spine, it's that the Dems have zero power on capitol hill that doesn't come at the pleasure of McConnell.

 

[Tovarisc]

How is this even a debate?

Could the democrats be more fucking spineless? Shut this shit down!

I imagine some of them want use new roads of bipartisan co-operation to get bill into light, but most likely they end up burning them down and going through with this plan.

 

[jackissocool]

They needed to get the Russia sanctions passed before doing this.

The problem is that without a bill submitted to the CBO they are fighting phantoms.

I imagine some of them want use new roads of bipartisan co-operation to get bill into light, but most likely they end up burning them down and going through with this plan.

To both of these points I ask: why?

Most Americans are a million times more concerned with healthcare than Russia, and why waste time being bipartisan with an organization that is so openly hostile to the people at large? It has never worked and it never will.

 

[Ekai]

"GOP is rewriting health care plan behind closed doors, even people working on it doesn't know whole picture. Their plan is to piece it together and ram it through before Democrats and public can have actual look at it."

By the people, who want poor people dead.

May they have to answer for this someday.

Hopefully every last Republican will be denied the heaven they think they belong in. These "people" are anything but saints.

 

[Tovarisc]

To both of these points I ask: why?

Most Americans are a million times more concerned with healthcare than Russia, and why waste time being bipartisan with an organization that is so openly hostile to the people at large? It has never worked and it never will.

This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

 

[jackissocool]

This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

Jesus Christ, are there people on the "left" still operating under the delusion that the republicans as a party are capable of anything besides despicable evil? The constant effort to compromise no matter what is what has led to the continuous loss of ground by progressive causes. Us vs. them isn't a rhetorical tactic, it's a reality when the republican party is downright evil.

When someone points threatens to kill you and everything you've worked for, you don't compromise with them out of some sense of unity. You fight for what you have.

 

[Juice]

In my mind there is no option: if the democrats don't gum up the works with nonsensical amendments as long as possible, the progressives wing will crucify them. Possibly even start talking about primaries.

I think a lot of dems believe (and I'm one of them) that the most likely way to get Medicare for all is for this to pass and then in 2021 a new law will be needed and the only appetite on the left will be for single payer.

But if dems want to win the house in 2018, they need the senate to draw this out however possible. Doing so will get the media time to cover the bill, which will put more pressure on spineless assholes like Flake and Portman

 

[Plumbob]

This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

This is an attitude acceptable only to someone who isn't paying attention.

 

[kirblar]

To both of these points I ask: why?

Most Americans are a million times more concerned with healthcare than Russia, and why waste time being bipartisan with an organization that is so openly hostile to the people at large? It has never worked and it never will.

Because Russia is an active threat to Western Democracy that attacked us in 2016. Because sending this bill to Trump puts him in a bind where he has to cowtow to his puppetmasters or veto it. It needed to go through for both political and practical reasons.

Yes, Healthcare is more popular as an issue among the base and voters. And a vocal minority of the base gets real upset about talk about Russia because they fell into the Russian fake newsbot/Intercept/Hillary-hate anti-west vortex bubble. They get very angry when the issue is brought up and want Dems to ignore it.

And our elected Dems are rightfully ignoring them. They are capable on working on multiple issues and fronts. And we should not want them only addressing the issues that are most politically popular w/ their base.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

It's been "Us vs. Them" for the past 8 years now. The Republicans aren't about to let the Democrats make changes to the bill.

And even if the Democrats did make changes, the Republicans would use them as a scapegoat for the bill's failures. Democrats should have nothing to do with taking people's health care away, no matter how much they soften the blow. Bipartisanship has been dead for a while, but in this instance it's not just pointless, it's actively harmful.

 

[GK86]

Please, Dems, please do this. Fuck the GOP as a whole and give them nothing.

 

[andythinkpad]

Burn the capitol hill down.

 

[jackissocool]

Because Russia is an active threat to Western Democracy that attacked us in 2016. Because sending this bill to Trump puts him in a bind where he has to cowtow to his puppetmasters or veto it. It needed to go through for both political and practical reasons.

Yes, Healthcare is more popular as an issue among the base and voters. And a vocal minority of the base gets real upset about talk about Russia because they fell into the Russian fake newsbot/Intercept/Hillary-hate anti-west vortex bubble. They get very angry when the issue is brought up and want Dems to ignore it.

And our elected Dems are rightfully ignoring them. They are capable on working on multiple issues and fronts. And we should not want them only addressing the issues that are most politically popular w/ their base.

Pursue Russia, sure, whatever. Who cares.

But letting it do anything to interfere with what is undoubtably the most important issue shows a stunning lack of understanding on the part of the democrats. Russia is fundamentally an issue about Trump as an individual. Healthcare is a systematic issue with an impact orders of magnitude more important.

"Weighing"

Just fucking do it!

OBSTRUCT. Make this fight as loud and visible as possible, because the entire point behind what the GOP is doing with this behind-the-scenes healthcare bill is getting it passed before people notice what they're doing.

What is there to weigh here!?

"They go high, we go low"

Democrats have always been more concerned about appearances than progress and winning.

 

[royalan]

"Weighing"

Just fucking do it!

OBSTRUCT. Make this fight as loud and visible as possible, because the entire point behind what the GOP is doing with this behind-the-scenes healthcare bill is getting it passed before people notice what they're doing.

What is there to weigh here!?

 

[kirblar]

This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

The GOP is the party of white rural identity politics. We didn't divide things this way, in the '70s the GOP decided to actively lean into this as their political base going forward, and Trump is the ultimate conclusion of their process of actively feeding their voting base propaganda via Fox News and AM Radio for decades.

Pursue Russia, sure, whatever. Who cares.

But letting it do anything to interfere with what is undoubtably the most important issue shows a stunning lack of understanding on the part of the democrats. Russia is fundamentally an issue about Trump as an individual. Healthcare is a systematic issue with an impact orders of magnitude more important.

It hasn't done anything to interfere with it. THERE IS NO BILL YET. There is nothing to fight about yet! This is the GOP strategy- we know it's being worked on, but until it's more tangible than rumors, it's very hard to fight against.

Russia is NOT only about Trump as an individual. They have been systemically interfering in elections and politics across the West. If you think this is only about Trump you are badly, badly mistaken.

 

[RinsFury]

Shut it all down, paralyze these evil fucks at every opportunity.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Russia is fundamentally an issue about Trump as an individual.

It's not. Russia would have pulled the same shit if Trump didn't run, and they would only be emboldened if the US rolls over and lets them do it without any repercussions.

 

[jackissocool]

It hasn't done anything to interfere with it. THERE IS NO BILL YET. There is nothing to fight about yet! This is the GOP strategy- we know it's being worked on, but until it's more tangible than rumors, it's very hard to fight against.

But clearly there's a serious discussion in the party about not fighting it as hard as they can. The supposed Resistance should have blocked every single little action the right has tried to make with every fiber of their being. Its what the Republicans did for eight years and it worked. The utter lack of commitment to anything besides Russia is a farce.

It's not. Russia would have pulled the same shit if Trump didn't run, and they would only be emboldened if the US rolls over and lets them do it without any repercussions.

Russia is an excuse to avoid the real reason Hillary lost the election. It's also downright impossible to take seriously as a threat to democracy. Every single major power interferes in the elections of every other major power, especially the US. What is even the end game? War with Russia? Impeaching Trump won't happen with a Republican Congress and even if it did we'd just have Pence. It's a road to nowhere that most Americans simply don't care about.

They care about not fucking dying without healthcare.

 

[excelsiorlef]

But clearly there's a serious discussion in the party about not fighting it as hard as they can. The supposed Resistance should have blocked every single little action the right has tried to make with every fiber of their being. Its what the Republicans did for eight years and it worked. The utter lack of commitment to anything besides Russia is a farce.

Republicans controlled the house and senate when they obstructed.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Burn the capitol hill down.

Is that really the message you want to give after the shootings that just happened?

 

[Lautaro]

What is there to weigh? the fact that they discuss the plan behind closed doors shows that is garbage. Are you going to find a middle ground so they can get away with a plan that only damages a few million people instead of 23 million as long as they get the tax cuts they really want?

The middle ground is not always the best solution, sometimes you have to make a stand if you have any convictions.

 

[kirblar]

But clearly there's a serious discussion in the party about not fighting it as hard as they can. The supposed Resistance should have blocked every single little action the right has tried to make with every fiber of their being. Its what the Republicans did for eight years and it worked. The utter lack of commitment to anything besides Russia is a farce.

You are under the illusion that the Democrats have actual power here.

The problem is that McConnell can wave a magic wand and change the rules on them w/ many things, and that finding a way that actually works to stall this out without McConnell being able to snap his fingers and ignore the rules is difficult at best and impossible at worst. Not to say they shouldn't fight it, but they do have to actually figure out a good strategy for doing it.

 

[jackissocool]

What is there to weigh? the fact that they discuss the plan behind closed doors shows that is garbage. Are you going to find a middle ground so they can get away with a plan that only damages a few million people instead of 23 million as long as they get the tax cuts they really want?

The middle ground is not always the best solution, sometimes you have to make a stand if you have any convictions.

The middle ground is never the best solution if it's the middle between good and bad.

Is that really the message you want to give after the shootings that just happened?

Yes.

 

[royalan]

It hasn't done anything to interfere with it. THERE IS NO BILL YET. There is nothing to fight about yet! This is the GOP strategy- we know it's being worked on, but until it's more tangible than rumors, it's very hard to fight against.

Russia is NOT only about Trump as an individual. They have been systemically interfering in elections and politics across the West. If you think this is only about Trump you are badly, badly mistaken.

But there is a bill. Just because we can't see the bill doesn't mean that there isn't one. And by the time we DO see it, it'll likely be too late to fight it if we don't start now.

We don't need the actual text of the bill in hand to paint as a horribly disgusting thing Republicans are attempting to get through and scream that from every mountain top.

 

[kirblar]

But there is a bill. Just because we can't see the bill doesn't mean that there isn't one. And by the time we DO see it, it'll likely be too late to fight it if we don't start now.

We don't need the actual text of the bill in hand to paint as a horribly disgusting thing Republicans are attempting to get through and scream that from every mountain top.

The AHCA approval ratings are absolute dogshit. We don't even need to do that. People already hate it.

If they want to pass this, they will pass this. It's not that we shouldn't fight it, but that people need to understand that if they get 50+1 votes on board, it is already over no matter what our elected officials do.

 

[Lautaro]

The middle ground is never the best solution if it's the middle between good and bad.

I'm a fan of the middle ground but that's because in my country the right wing politicians have not completely lost their minds so I guess reaching across the aisle is a luxury that americans no longer have. In my opinion, you can talk about bipartisan agreements only if Trump gets impeached with the help of the GOP, until then you have to assume the well is fucking poisoned.

 

[thefro]

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Show the public the bill, let's have debate on it and committee hearings.

The AHCA approval ratings are absolute dogshit. We don't even need to do that. People already hate it.

If they want to pass this, they will pass this. It's not that we shouldn't fight it, but that people need to understand that if they get 50+1 votes on board, it is already over no matter what our elected officials do.

They can block reconciliation in practice from passing since they have the ability to offer unlimited amendments.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Do it. Don't give them an inch.

 

[kirblar]

They can block reconciliation in practice from passing since they have the ability to offer unlimited amendments.

Yeah, I saw that suggestion, and it seemed like by far the best option. The "throw tantrum and shut down everything" one doesn't work because of the McConnell wand - it just got ignored when they tried it vs Price/Mnuchin.

I'm a fan of the middle ground but that's because in my country the right wing politicians have not completely lost their minds so I guess reaching across the aisle is a luxury that americans no longer have. In my opinion, you can talk about bipartisan agreements only if Trump gets impeached with the help of the GOP, until then you have to assume the well is fucking poisoned.

What country you from?

 

[royalan]

The AHCA approval ratings are absolute dogshit. We don't even need to do that. People already hate it.

If they want to pass this, they will pass this. It's not that we shouldn't fight it, but that people need to understand that if they get 50+1 votes on board, it is already over no matter what our elected officials do.

It's not that we need to make AHCA unpopular. You're right, it's already hella unpopular.

But Democrats need to start doing the symbolic thing (obstruct like fuck) to show that they are the force for the left to rally behind, instead of always assuming they'll just become that by default.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

It's not that we need to make AHCA unpopular. You're right, it's already hella unpopular.

But Democrats need to start doing the symbolic thing (obstruct like fuck) to show that they are the force for the left to rally behind, instead of always assuming they'll just become that by default.

Exactly. You need examples to refer to when people ask "who will fight for my health?"

 

[Tain]

The middle ground is never the best solution if it's the middle between good and bad.

Yes.

10,000% yes.

https://twitter.com/BAKKOOONN/status/876175138240077824

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Drag the fight into the court of public opinion.

 

[jWILL253]

Someone in this thread really went with the "tolerant left" defense.

Please... I beg of you... shut the fuck up. The people that keep disingenuously bringing up the political divide or the extremism of the left are helping no one, and only serve to derail the discussion.

You may not think this shit is life and death and we need more calm "discussion"... but honestly... fuck you. An entire political party keeps rigging the game in their favor, and are set to literally remove the one thing saving people's lives, for no reason at all. Fuck your​ discussion. Fuck your fence-sitting. This is literally life or death.

20 million people, including myself, are about to lose health care, just so Donald Trump can say he's actually done something during his lame duck term, furthering his plan to remove all evidence that a Black man was ever president. And you wanna say we're making the political divide worse??? Even though we aren't the ones that are literally trying to kill you by removing something that has saved so many lives?

If you legitimately feel this way, please, sincerely, fuck off. People's lives take precedent over your bullshit sense of order.

 

[SJurgenson]

They should do every single thing procedurally and legally within their power to do to stop the Senate from voting on the bill. This is literally a matter of life and death that affects every single American. If they can delay the vote until after the recess, there is a good chance the bill is dead.

Remember when the House Democrats staged a sit-in for gun legislation? That was 100% political theater -- there was no hope for any gun legislation with the Republicans running the House. But it was good political theater.

I want the Senate Democrats to do the same thing. This time, there is hope of a positive result. I want video on CPAN of Democratic Senators being dragged out of the Senate by the Capitol Police, and I want it Periscoped by Chuck Schumer with a goddamn selfie-stick!

Appearances matter. This is a historically secret bill that the general public detests. The Senate Democrats should fight tooth and nail to make sure it is never voted upon.

 

[120v]

you'll win the public over by stressing how much of a pos the legislation is rather than burning the house down, even if the latter is "the right thing to do"

 

[SJurgenson]

you'll win the public over by stressing how much of a pos the legislation is rather than burning the house down, even if the latter is "the right thing to do"

Footage of Senate Democrats resisting the bill tooth-and-nail, and stating their reasons why would run on every nightly newscast across the country.

Burn down the goddamn house, and then the gawkers can see for themselves what dirty shit the Republicans were hiding in the basement.

 

[Adam_Vania]

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

 

[The Technomancer]

Footage of Senate Democrats resisting the bill tooth-and-nail, and stating their reasons why would run on every nightly newscast across the country.

Burn down the goddamn house, and then the gawkers can see for themselves what dirty shit the Republicans were hiding in the basement.

You don't think Dem opposition to the bill will actually rally conservative base against it? These people elected Donald Trump, among other things, to "stick it to the libtards"

I'm not saying that letting the GOP hang themselves with this bill is the obviously correct or only thing to do, just that the decision here is not a straightforward one, I don't think

 

[SJurgenson]

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

Nice try. The ACA took over a year to pass, had hundreds of hours of congressional hearings, had several public town halls, and accepted dozens of Republican amendments.

This bill has had NONE of that.

 

[kirblar]

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

Dems didn't do the exact same thing. Once both the House and Senate bill were out they was in the public eye for a very long time. The idea that "Dems rammed it through" is a right-wing propaganda lie pushed by Fox News and other conservative media. Stop listening to it.

The Dems did have a Public Option in the House bill. It had to be removed in the Senate because Obama and Reid didn't have the balls to kill the fillibuster, and so it gave all 60 senators veto power. Thankfully, those senators who opposed the public option? (Baucus, Lieberman, Nelson, etc.) They're gone now!

 

[Tranqueris]

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

Just compare the process for passing AHCA with that for passing Obamacare. As that bill was being drafted, the Senate HELP Committee held 14 bipartisan roundtables and 13 public hearings in 2008 and 2009. The Center for American Progress' Topher Spiro detailed in the Washington Post that Democrats accepted more than 160 Republican amendments to the bill in June 2009.

The Senate Finance Committee held 17 public events and hearings. Democrats negotiated with Republicans for months. Then there were Congressional Budget Office scores that appeared before Congress voted on the bill. Vox's Sarah Kliff Obama recalls just how extensive the debate was.

All of these procedural points (and others) created chokepoints that allowed the Republicans to stir up opposition to the law. This time, McConnell rewrote the normal rules of legislating to instead blow right past them.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/16/15814194/the-resistance-mcconnell-secrecy

 

[nature boy]

Zero problems with this tactic.

Senate "courtesy" is a myth. Kill it once and for all

 

[SJurgenson]

You don't think Dem opposition to the bill will actually rally conservative base against it? These people elected Donald Trump, among other things, to "stick it to the libtards"

Let me state this simply:

Fuck. Them.

Who the fuck cares about rallying the fucking conservative base against the Democrats? They already are against them!

We need to rally the independents, the more liberal republicans, and the people who are not paying attention.

Holding back our punches because people who were never on our side would be against us is fucking stupid.

 

[rjinaz]

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

I don't think this is true. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. At least Republicans had some say. There were amendments that were accepted, made by Republicans and I think it was a long ass process including waiting until after it was scored.

This is basically do it in secret and let nobody have a say but us.

Edit: yeah somebody addressed this above. It's easy just saying "both sides though" I guess.