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Senate Democrats weigh blockade to protest GOP health care plan

they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

I don't know if that's an accurate characterization of the situation:

Vox Reporter on ACA said:
My professional life in 2009 and 2010 was an endless string of Affordable Care Act hearings aired on C-SPAN. I lived in New York at the time. It became a regular ritual to sit down in my cubicle, plug my headphones into my laptop, and listen to an entire day of Senate debate.

There were hundreds of hearings and markups that lasted days — or in the case of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, months," Rovner recalls in her piece.

Senators wanted to talk about the Affordable Care Act and why they believed they needed to pass it. They gave floor speech and after floor speech defending its provisions. Patients had months to lobby their legislators on particular issues that they thought were important. A few months ago I interviewed one woman, for example, who successfully lobbied former Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) to add a ban on lifetime limits in health insurance.

I remember Christmas Eve 2009 in particular, when I lived in New York and my roommate's family came to visit for the holiday. They opened presents in our living room. I was holed up in my bedroom watching the Senate vote on the ACA, the culmination of a 25-day floor debate.

https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/6/15/15807986/obamacare-lies-obstruction

I don't doubt that Democrats did some behind-closed-doors sessions for the ACA, and honestly I'm not that concerned that they did, or that Republicans might do the same. The problem is that Republicans want to push out a bill we haven't even seen, while Democrats openly debated their bill for months and gave the public a chance to respond.

Don't try to "both sides" this shit.
 

leroidys

Member
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

So, this is verifiably completely false. What are the chances you're going to come back in here and own up to that?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Let me state this simply:

Fuck. Them.

Who the fuck cares about rallying the fucking conservative base against the Democrats? They already are against them!

We need to rally the independents, the more liberal republicans, and the people who are not paying attention.

Holding back our punches because people who were never on our side would be against us is fucking stupid.

The GOP Senators have to be worried about their seats if they're going to kill this thing, and they are the only ones with tangible power to do so. "What makes the AHCA the most unpopular among the GOP base" is not a trivially answerable question, hence this debate. I honestly do not know what the answer is
 

Branduil

Member
What is there to debate? McConnell is destroying every norm to get this demonic bill passed in secret, they have to do whatever they can to shed light on it.
 

zelas

Member
Slowing shit down for the sake of slowing shit down aint going to do nothing but fuel the base of both parties while giving the "both sides" clowns more reason not to educate themselves.

Dems should focus a blockade 100% on demanding Republicans exercise transparency when it comes to this bill and the public. Demanding they wont relent until Republicans allow the public and business interests a chance to digest their bill. Dems have to make it clear that they're willing to drop these tactics once the bill is presented in full to the public. That way Republicans will actually own this bill, even in the eyes of ignorant voters who are likely to fall susceptible to "it could have been better if not for Dem obstruction" claims.
 
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

Here's a photograph of President Obama talking about and defending the ACA publicly in Dallas:
524424149.jpg


Here's a photograph of President Trump talking about and defending the AHCA publicly:
file-not-found.jpg
 
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.



BULL SHIT

ACA had amendments opened up to Republicans.
 

royalan

Member
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

This is absolutely, completely, totally wrong.

Contrary to Republican claims, the process that led to the passage of the Affordable Care Act was one of the most transparent in our nation's history. Below is a selection of points to refute many claims House Republicans are expected to make at today's hearing.

FACT: The ACA had a historic number of hours of debate and amendments during Committee development of the legislations.

The House process spanned three committees - Energy and Commerce, Ways and means, and Education and Labor - with dozens of hearings over many months.
Specifically, the House held 79 bipartisan hearings and markups on the health reform bill over the period of an entire year.
House members spent nearly 100 hours in hearings, heard from 181 witnesses from both sides of the aisle, considered 239 amendments (both Democratic and Republican), and accepted 121 amendments.

FACT: The Senate held dozens of public meetings and hearings in both the Finance and HELP Committees and accepted hundreds of Republican amendments.

The HELP Committee held 14 bipartisan roundtables, 13 bipartisan hearings, and 20 bipartisan walkthroughs on health reform.
The HELP Committee considered nearly 300 amendments and accepted more than 160 Republican amendments.
The Finance Committee held 17 roundtables, summits, and hearings on health reform. The Finance Committee also held 13 member meetings and walkthroughs and 38 meetings and negotiations for a total of 53 meetings on health reform. [Senate Finance Committee, 5/3/10]
The Finance Committee held a seven-day markup of the bill, the longest Finance Committee markup in 22 years, resulting in a bipartisan 14-to-9 vote to approve the bill. [Senate Finance Committee, 5/3/10]
The Finance Committee markup resulted in 41 amendments to revise the bill, including 18 by unanimous consent or without objection. [Senate Finance Committee, 10/13/09]

FACT: The financing of the ACA's coverage provisions was well known and debated.

When the bill came to the floor, the Senate spent 25 consecutive days in session on health reform, the second longest consecutive session in history. In total, the Senate spent more than 160 hours considering the health reform legislation.

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office issued many reports on the Affordable Care Act's financing, clearly showing that revenue would be raised by the personal responsibility provision, also known at the individual mandate or free-rider penalty, in every case that it described the law's coverage provisions. [CBO, 12/10; The Washington Post, 9/24/14; ASPE, 9/24/14]

CBO also wrote extensively about how a properly-functioning insurance market would work as designed under the ACA. The entire purpose of insurance is to balance out the risk of healthy and non-healthy enrollees; anyone who believes that this point was avoided during debate of the ACA was simply not paying attention to advocates of the law as they described it during the many public hearings the law received.

https://www.dpcc.senate.gov/?id=328&p=issue

Turn off Fox News. Stop reading chain links.
 

Pbae

Member
You don't think Dem opposition to the bill will actually rally conservative base against it? These people elected Donald Trump, among other things, to "stick it to the libtards"

I'm not saying that letting the GOP hang themselves with this bill is the obviously correct or only thing to do, just that the decision here is not a straightforward one, I don't think

You're right it's not a straightforward answer; it's the only one.

Fuck the base, fuck the optics, fucking don't let it pass.

The other option is swathes of people losing their coverage and more alarmingly, their lives. For what, to look a little better?

Politics is dirty.
 
The GOP Senators have to be worried about their seats if they're going to kill this thing, and they are the only ones with tangible power to do so. "What makes the AHCA the most unpopular among the GOP base" is not a trivially answerable question, hence this debate. I honestly do not know what the answer is

The GOP senators will be worried about their seats when they see the public riled up when the Democratic senators cause such a shitstorm that the public pays attention.

Slowing shit down for the sake of slowing shit down aint going to do nothing but fuel the base of both parties while giving the "both sides" clowns more reason not to educate themselves.

Dems should focus a blockade 100% on demanding Republicans exercise transparency when it comes to this bill and the public. Demanding they wont relent until Republicans allow the public and business interests a chance to digest their bill. Dems have to make it clear that they're willing to drop these tactics once the bill is presented in full to the public. That way Republicans will actually own this bill, even in the eyes of ignorant voters who are likely to fall susceptible to "it could have been better if not for Dem obstruction" claims.

FUCK THAT. This is not a fucking sporting game of chess, this is MILLIONS OF PEOPLE'S FUCKING LIVES.

The public knows the bill already, or at least enough of it to know what's coming. The Senate version cannot be meaningfully different than the House one, or else it cannot pass the House.

These tactics are not for transparency, they are to to kill the fucking bill and save health care for millions of people.
 

Kevinroc

Member
The Democrats should absolutely fight this with whatever trick they have at their disposal. They want to stand for something, stand for not throwing millions off of their health care so the richest of the rich get a tax cut. Raise as much noise as humanly possible.

john-lewis-good-trouble-1.png


In other words, listen to this guy.
 
Russia is an excuse to avoid the real reason Hillary lost the election. It's also downright impossible to take seriously as a threat to democracy. Every single major power interferes in the elections of every other major power, especially the US. What is even the end game? War with Russia? Impeaching Trump won't happen with a Republican Congress and even if it did we'd just have Pence. It's a road to nowhere that most Americans simply don't care about.

They care about not fucking dying without healthcare.

Hillary lost for many reasons. Yes, many of them were due to a poorly managed campaign, but Russian interference was also one of those reasons. If you don't want Trump-like candidates (or Pence) to take away people's health care, you want them to have as few tools at their disposal as possible when they run for election. The "end goal" is to get Russia to suffer economically to the point where they're willing to back off.

Also, a majority of Americans do actually care about the Russia probe (a slim majority, but a majority none the less).

Now that the sanctions have been settled, I do hope the Democrats make some noise, but they were right to use what little power they have.
 
Not holding my breath on this one.

Cool, then also hold your fingers on your useless commentary.

Enjoy staying silent and pessimistic while the Senate Republicans remove healthcare from tens of millions of Americans.

Why bother trying if there is a chance of failure, am I right?
 
You don't think Dem opposition to the bill will actually rally conservative base against it? These people elected Donald Trump, among other things, to "stick it to the libtards"

This thought process is crippling. If Dems wanted to give $2 million to every American, they'd still have opposition from the right and the idiots in their base. Thinking like this is essentially committing democrats to never passionately fight for anything right because it might piss off gun toting, bible thumping morons. Fuck them. We need to push for the right thing through opposition. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. But being mealymouthed & waiting patiently to be taken seriously hasn't worked either because if Dems aren't "crazy lunatics" in the eyes of the GOP and from the mouths of their cheerleaders, they're "ineffective and limp-wristed".

This is absolutely, completely, totally wrong.



https://www.dpcc.senate.gov/?id=328&p=issue

Turn off Fox News. Stop reading chain links.

No doubt they won't be coming back.
 

RCSI

Member
Have not seen it the message here yet:

Call your Senators

If you want your Senator to make this blockade happen, tell them.
 
Footage of Senate Democrats resisting the bill tooth-and-nail, and stating their reasons why would run on every nightly newscast across the country.

Burn down the goddamn house, and then the gawkers can see for themselves what dirty shit the Republicans were hiding in the basement.

People know good and well what's hiding in the basement. They don't care, though, as long as there's an R next to that person's name. This idea that the issue is that people don't actually know how bad/evil the Republicans are is misguided at best. It's not that. It's that as long as Republicans agree with them on a few issues (for some it's abortion, for some is gun rights, for some its immigration, for some it's LGBT rights, and so on), they don't care about the rest of it. That's the beauty of not being a big tent party like the Dems are (supposed to be, at least).
 
People know good and well what's hiding in the basement. They don't care, though, as long as there's an R next to that person's name. This idea that the issue is that people don't actually know how bad/evil the Republicans are is misguided at best. It's not that. It's that as long as Republicans agree with them on a few issues (for some it's abortion, for some is gun rights, for some its immigration, for some it's LGBT rights, and so on), they don't care about the rest of it. That's the beauty of not being a big tent party like the Dems are (supposed to be, at least).

Again, who the fuck cares about the dyed-in-the-wool Republican voters?

Last I checked, The Democrats won some elections in the last few decades. They weren't won because hard-core Republicans voted for them, they won because the independent/undecided voters voted for them.

This fucking fixation on hard-core Republicans as some sort of reason to do nothing is fucking pathetic.

Decide on your positions and actions based off your goddamn ethical and moral judgement, not some minority immovable voting bloc, for fuck's sake.
 
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

Yeah, that's not what happened with the ACA/Obamacare, but way to buy into a bunch of bullshit the GOP has been selling you for years. People like you are the problem, your civic responsibility is to at least know what your taking about.
 

Tain

Member
if only there was a big recent event in another modern democracy that demonstrated that leftist policies bring people to vote and aren't something to be horrified of 🤔
 

Jordan117

Member
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.

I guess I just hallucinated, among other things, that hours-long bipartisan health care summit that was broadcast live on national television.

oh wait:

11974.jpg
 

kirblar

Member
if only there was a big recent event in another modern democracy that demonstrated that leftist policies bring people to vote and aren't something to be horrified of 🤔
Macron got a overwhelming majority, Corbyn didn't even wrench control from the Tories.
 
Again, who the fuck cares about the dyed-in-the-wool Republican voters?

Last I checked, The Democrats won some elections in the last few decades. They weren't won because hard-core Republicans voted for them, they won because the independent/undecided voters voted for them.

This fucking fixation on hard-core Republicans as some sort of reason to do nothing is fucking pathetic.

Decide on your positions and actions based off your goddamn ethical and moral judgement, not some minority immovable voting bloc, for fuck's sake.

At no point did I actually say they shouldn't obstruct. They should obstruct, because this is a terrible bill that will hurt people. I just think that the majority of people out there (and this includes independents and moderate Republicans) already know the bill is shit (or to be technically correct, is going to be shit), which is why the bill already has a low approval rating. I just don't think I buy the idea that they level of shittiness of the bill is really going to have an effect on how people view it. In other words, the bill should be put to light because that's how all bills should be, and especially ones that effect this many people, but I don't expect what gets put out there to change anybody's minds on it, and that includes moderates.
 
Cool, then also hold your fingers on your useless commentary.

Enjoy staying silent and pessimistic while the Senate Republicans remove healthcare from tens of millions of Americans.

Why bother trying if there is a chance of failure, am I right?

As if your commentary is any more "useful". I'm being realistic. Democratic leadership has completely and utterly failed us so my expectations are very low.
 
The AHCA approval ratings are absolute dogshit. We don't even need to do that. People already hate it.

If they want to pass this, they will pass this. It's not that we shouldn't fight it, but that people need to understand that if they get 50+1 votes on board, it is already over no matter what our elected officials do.

If the AHCA passes and people complain it, the younger generation will witness the democrats opposing it, and that could affect future voters and party switching. It's important we do everything we can to make the issue clear so conservative propaganda can't muddy it up. If the GOP will pass the AHCA, they will own the AHCA.
 

kirblar

Member
You're right, it is complete bullshit that the Labour Party only won 30 additional seats in a general election they were initially forecast to lose 77 seats! (Source)
The point is that the idea that there's an overwhelming secret majority out there for leftism is complete nonsense.
 
As if your commentary is any more "useful". I'm being realistic. Democratic leadership has completely and utterly failed us so my expectations are very low.

Democratic leadership is totally going to step up to the plate if you write more defeatist comments, I'm just sure of it! Shitty 'nothing will happen' posts are just the thing that motivates elected leaders and voters for change!

At no point did I actually say they shouldn't obstruct. They should obstruct, because this is a terrible bill that will hurt people. I just think that the majority of people out there (and this includes independents and moderate Republicans) already know the bill is shit (or to be technically correct, is going to be shit), which is why the bill already has a low approval rating. I just don't think I buy the idea that they level of shittiness of the bill is really going to have an effect on how people view it. In other words, the bill should be put to light because that's how all bills should be, and especially ones that effect this many people, but I don't expect what gets put out there to change anybody's minds on it, and that includes moderates.

" I just don't think I buy the idea that they level of shittiness of the bill is really going to have an effect on how people view it."

tumblr_inline_obo6svRsgq1unmfg0_400.jpg
 

Chumly

Member
they would have a point if Dems hadn't done the exact same fucking thing, writing their bill behind closed doors, letting insurance industry lobbyists write the bill.

maybe if it had been an open process w public option from the start you would have more defending it. as is, can't blame Republicans for doing the exact same thing Dems did.
I wish people would own up when they are 100% embarrassingly wrong. No doubt you will never return to this thread. I wouldn't be surprised to see you shitposting somewhere else and running as well
 
Democratic leadership is totally going to step up to the plate if you write more defeatist comments, I'm just sure of it! Shitty 'nothing will happen' posts are just the thing that motivates elected leaders and voters for change!
You have a real bad attitude my friend.
 

slit

Member
Don't get me wrong, I want the Dems to fight tooth and nail against this but I gotta believe the GOP will pass something that will screw people over. They're not going to let their golden opportunity go by. I hope people are bracing themselves for it and are ready to come out fighting after it does pass.
 
You have a real bad attitude my friend.

Nah, I'm just sick of defeatist bullshit, whether it's honest or not.

There is no defensible debate that doing nothing and expecting nothing is the best thing to do to fix the problems of American democracy.

The entire history of America is a history of working hard for change, even if that change was hard and seemed impossible to accomplish.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I want the Dems to fight tooth and nail against this but I gotta believe the GOP will pass something that will screw people over. They're not going to let their golden opportunity go by. I hope people are bracing themselves for it and are ready to come out fighting after it does pass.

The GOP cares only about getting re-elected. We have to make them believe they will not get re-elected if they pass the bill. The way to do that is to fight tooth and nail and spawn a public outcry that they cannot ignore.
 
Nah, I'm just sick of defeatist bullshit, whether it's honest or not.

There is no defensible debate that doing nothing and expecting nothing is the best thing to do to fix the problems of American democracy.

The entire history of America is a history of working hard for change, even if that change was hard and seemed impossible to accomplish.
Who said I'm doing nothing?
 

Kevinroc

Member
If the AHCA passes and people complain it, the younger generation will witness the democrats opposing it, and that could affect future voters and party switching. It's important we do everything we can to make the issue clear so conservative propaganda can't muddy it up. If the GOP will pass the AHCA, they will own the AHCA.

Exactly this. The GOP were mocked for their 50+ votes to repeal Obamacare when Obama was still President, but that was red meat to the GOP base.
 
" I just don't think I buy the idea that they level of shittiness of the bill is really going to have an effect on how people view it."

tumblr_inline_obo6svRsgq1unmfg0_400.jpg

Okay, I'll break it down even further for you. We already know the House version of the bill results in, IIRC, something like 23-24 million people losing their insurance from its CBO scoring. If the Senate version only results in 21 million people losing it, I don't think the bill gets viewed demonstrably better. If it results in 27 million people losing it, I don't think it gets viewed demonstrably worse. It's going to be a shit bill, and viewed as a shit bill, regardless of the specifics. That doesn't mean I don't think the specifics should be released. I'm just not counting on them having a noticeable affect on the bill's approval rating, or on how moderates view it.
 
Exactly this. The GOP were mocked for their 50+ votes to repeal Obamacare when Obama was still President, but that was red meat to the GOP base.

Yeah. Appearances matter. One thing the GOP is great at is riling up their base. The Democrats need to do that too, even if it does not lead to legislative victory.

It energizes people to vote and civically participate who would otherwise sit it out.
 
I mean, you could at least hold your breath on this one.
I have low expectations for our Senators and rightfully so. I'm as active as I can be in the political scene. I vote in every election, donate to the ACLU, go to protests and rallies, and spread political truth to my social circle who is otherwise too busy with memes. I guess I'm not trying hard enough if I don't act like a smug jerk to people on a message board if I don't agree with them.
 

jay

Member
This divide into "Us vs. Them" camps is big part of current political climate in US and will only further poison the well.

That's ok when they are wrong.

Democratic leadership is totally going to step up to the plate if you write more defeatist comments, I'm just sure of it! Shitty 'nothing will happen' posts are just the thing that motivates elected leaders and voters for change!

Ah yes, it's the people in power who have no power.
 
Okay, I'll break it down even further for you. We already know the House version of the bill results in, IIRC, something like 23-24 million people losing their insurance from its CBO scoring. If the Senate version only results in 21 million people losing it, I don't think the bill gets viewed demonstrably better. If it results in 27 million people losing it, I don't think it gets viewed demonstrably worse. It's going to be a shit bill, and viewed as a shit bill, regardless of the specifics. That doesn't mean I don't think the specifics should be released. I'm just not counting on them having a noticeable affect on the bill's approval rating, or on how moderates view it.

In what fucking world is the public's opinion on something binary?

Yeah, I agree with the premise that the Senate bill will not be meaningfully better or worse than the House bill -- but that's now the thing we were discussing.

Public opinion will not change solely on the particular specifics of the bill, it will change based on the publicity of the shittiness of the bill.

That's why the Democrats need to not hold back, and shout from the rooftops that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL LOSE HEALTH COVERAGE.

The louder the Democrats scream, the more people will pay attention, and see for themselves that the bill is terrible. Once people start paying attention, the particular horrors of the bill will be useful for swaying opinions.
 
I have low expectations for our Senators and rightfully so. I'm as active as I can be in the political scene. I vote in every election, donate to the ACLU, go to protests and rallies, and spread political truth to my social circle who is otherwise too busy with memes. I guess I'm not trying hard enough if I don't act like a smug jerk to people on a message board if I don't agree with them.

You could at least try a little bit harder, and not post drive-by defeatist trash instead of meaningfully participating in the discussion.
 
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