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[Lord Frieza]

Just expanding on yours

Not sure how, but okay. If McConnell uses that the vot-a-rama becomes useless because I doubt an hour is enough time to draw up amendments. Unless the Senate Bill leaks at some point

Edit: Unless the CBO has to be public. Someone posted about that earlier, but I already forgot. Then yeah, vot-a-rama needs to happen

 

[WiiredShawn]

Not sure how, but okay. If McConnell uses that the vot-a-rama becomes useless because I doubt an hour is enough time to draw up amendments. Unless the Senate Bill leaks at some point

Edit: Unless the CBO has to be public. Someone posted about that earlier, but I already forgot. Then yeah, vot-a-rama needs to happen

I got the impression that the CBO score is public and has to accompany the legislation in order for reconciliation to apply.

 

[kaching]

There is a better bill -- The ACA and it is now law.

No debating will stop the Republicans. How do you not understand that?

They offered to help improve the ACA, they've done their fucking job. Quit playing into the double standard of the right. There's literally no point for them to create a bill that has no chance of being voted on when they already have a bill in place that could be fixed that is their goddamn bill

You're point doesn't even make sense. They already have a bill that's better to point to as an alternative, it's called the ACA

The ACA is vulnerable, not perfect and shouldn't be considered the final word when it comes to healthcare. Congress' job is never done and this has nothing to do with any sort of double standard. I didn't think any of that was particularly debatable, but I guess here we are. The Republicans voted dozens of times to repeal ACA, knowing full well those votes wouldn't go anywhere. If you're telling the Left to take a page from the Right's playbook, then why not grandstand a legitimately better bill that could revise and improve the ACA, even if it doesn't stand a chance of being voted? It plays into the same kind of symbolism that the Right so readily engages and has the virtue of being legislation that may actually be worth coming back to and passing if we ever get past all this obstruction...

 

[SJurgenson]

The ACA is vulnerable, not perfect and shouldn't be considered the final word when it comes to healthcare. Congress' job is never done and this has nothing to do with any sort of double standard. I didn't think any of that was particularly debatable, but I guess here we are. The Republicans voted dozens of times to repeal ACA, knowing full well those votes wouldn't go anywhere. If you're telling the Left to take a page from the Right's playbook, then why not grandstand a legitimately better bill that could revise and improve the ACA, even if it doesn't stand a chance of being voted? It plays into the same kind of symbolism that the Right so readily engages and has the virtue of being legislation that may actually be worth coming back to and passing if we ever get past all this obstruction...

The fact that you keep talking about this is as if there is a legitimate debate on policy tells me something: You don't understand.

There are no legitimate healthcare policy debate at play. No person in their right mind actually believes this is a debate about healthcare at this point. It is a 'debate' about Republicans destroying the great Obama/liberal legacy of the last decade so they can give more tax breaks to rich people.

Again, let me be clear: There is not about better healthcare for Americans.

There is no debate to be had about the subject, because it's not about that subject. Grandstanding a better bill does nothing, because the Republicans don't fucking care. They. Don't. Fucking. Care.

Obamacare could literally have a provision saying, "Registered Republicans get free healthcare for life", and the Republicans would still destroy it -- because it was a major accomplishment of Obama, and it can be sacrificed at the altar of tax cuts for the rich.

Fighting them on the field of Healthcare Policy is a fools errand -- as they are not fighting there. They are trying to pass a bill that kicks tens if millions of people off healthcare!

Here, I have a policy proposal to end the scourge of teenage suicide: We give guns to all teens, and pass out pamphlets to them telling them they are worthless, and life is a cruel joke.

That's as serious a 'suicide prevention' policy as this bill is a serious 'healthcare policy' bill. Debating them in the public sphere on the merits of it is fucking stupid. Trying to 'counter' their bill with a better one is fucking stupid, as it's not about healthcare.

 

[TyrantII]

I imagine some of them want use new roads of bipartisan co-operation to get bill into light, but most likely they end up burning them down and going through with this plan.

Did you pay attention to the last election?

Obstruction is rewarded in this climate.

 

[Tovarisc]

Dems are going through with this plan.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/876820670906335234

 

[Oni Jazar]

good

 

[Got]

nothing to lose with this maneuver.

 

[Ogodei]

nothing to lose with this maneuver.

Not after we got them to sign those Russian sanctions, anyway.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Did you pay attention to the last election?

Obstruction is rewarded in this climate.

Only when the right-wing does it. When the left does it then all the center and independent fuckheads are like, "THEY DON'T WANT TO GET ANYTHING DONE" and vote for (even more) Republicans as punishment.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Only when the right-wing does it. When the left does it then all the center and independent fuckheads are like, "THEY DON'T WANT TO GET ANYTHING DONE" and vote for (even more) Republicans as punishment.

When has this been the case? Democrats haven't had a chance to obstruct in almost a decade.

 

[kaching]

The fact that you keep talking about this is as if there is a legitimate debate on policy tells me something: You don't understand.

The fact that you keep talking about my position like my focus is on legitimate debate with Republicans tells me something: You've misread me entirely.

There is no debate to be had about the subject, because it's not about that subject. Grandstanding a better bill does nothing, because the Republicans don't fucking care. They. Don't. Fucking. Care.

The grandstanding isn't for Republican's sake, I don't expect an iota of honest debate from them on this or any other subject in their current state. The grandstanding is for the media and for the rest of the country that aren't brainwashed to the conservative baseline but who still broadcast and consume a noxious amount of conservative propaganda. This is counter-programming.

 

[The Technomancer]

How the hell is it legal that they are keeping this process under wraps and expect it to pass?

This shit is so un-american and gross. I really hope the media grills them for this shit.

The Senate controls the rules for the Senate

In hindsight this is a very bad idea

 

[Lord Frieza]

The ACA is vulnerable, not perfect and shouldn't be considered the final word when it comes to healthcare. Congress' job is never done and this has nothing to do with any sort of double standard. I didn't think any of that was particularly debatable, but I guess here we are. The Republicans voted dozens of times to repeal ACA, knowing full well those votes wouldn't go anywhere. If you're telling the Left to take a page from the Right's playbook, then why not grandstand a legitimately better bill that could revise and improve the ACA, even if it doesn't stand a chance of being voted? It plays into the same kind of symbolism that the Right so readily engages and has the virtue of being legislation that may actually be worth coming back to and passing if we ever get past all this obstruction...

There is a better bill: it's called the ACA, and it is the Democratic bill. All you're talking about is a massive waste of time and resources for something that already exists

 

[kaching]

:-/ I don't get the "massive waste of time" angle...because we'd never want to ever improve ACA? Because a concrete, CBO-scored response to, "If you really wanted to repeal and replace ACA with something better, it would like this..." couldn't possibly help sell Democrats' position to the media and to voters?

I'm not really proposing that Dems need to put in any more "massive" effort than Reps have into this (which is to say, barely anything): it needn't be a piece of legislation that's absolutely ready for vote now, just something that shows what the future of healthcare reform looks like assembled by people who aren't total dicks to anyone but the ultra rich.

 

[Lord Frieza]

:-/ I don't get the "massive waste of time" angle...because we'd never want to ever improve ACA? Because a concrete, CBO-scored response to, "If you really wanted to repeal and replace ACA with something better, it would like this..." couldn't possibly help sell Democrats' position to the media and to voters?

I'm not really proposing that Dems need to put in any more "massive" effort than Reps have into this (which is to say, barely anything): it needn't be a piece of legislation that's absolutely ready for vote now, just something that shows what the future of healthcare reform looks like assembled by people who aren't total dicks to anyone but the ultra rich.

The point is, you're basically holding the Democrats to a double standard, even though you don't realize it. The Democrats have an alternate bill that is better than the GOP alternative: it's called the ACA, and they have already offered to Trump and the GOP Congress to improve that bill, their bill that they worked goddamned hard on for over a year to pass when there's already a relatively popular bill that they made the first time that they have openly offered to improve several times.

Do you really not understand how massive a waste of time that is for absolutely no reason at all?

You're basically advocating that Dems have to do twice as much work, for no real reason, that will not amount to any difference, just to look the part they are already playing. Not to mention that the ACA has skyrocketed in popularity since the repeal process began, so them abandoning it now makes zero fucking sense, except for the Dems to just roll over, submit to Trump and the GOP, and put their own time and effort into a bill that will never even be debated, much less passed.

 

[Dude Abides]

The point is, you're basically holding the Democrats to a double standard, even though you don't realize it. The Democrats have an alternate bill that is better than the GOP alternative: it's called the ACA, and they have already offered to Trump and the GOP Congress to improve that bill, their bill that they worked goddamned hard on for over a year to pass when there's already a relatively popular bill that they made the first time that they have openly offered to improve several times.

Do you really not understand how massive a waste of time that is for absolutely no reason at all?

You're basically advocating that Dems have to do twice as much work, for no real reason, that will not amount to any difference, just to look the part they are already playing. Not to mention that the ACA has skyrocketed in popularity since the repeal process began, so them abandoning it now makes zero fucking sense, except for the Dems to just roll over, submit to Trump and the GOP, and put their own time and effort into a bill that will never even be debated, much less passed.

It's not a waste of time. It would be helpful politically for Democrats to have in hand a set of improvements they could point to. It's not like they deny it could be improved. It's not the biggest deal in the world but it would make the talking points better.

 

[Lord Frieza]

It's not a waste of time. It would be helpful politically for Democrats to have in hand a set of improvements they could point to. It's not like they deny it could be improved. It's not the biggest deal in the world but it would make the talking points better.

It is, because they already have an alternative bill to the ACHA. I don't really understand how it's so hard for some of you to understand this.

 

[SJurgenson]

It is, because they already have an alternative bill to the ACHA. I don't really understand how it's so hard for some of you to understand this.

I think it's time we stop feeding the trolls here.

Anyone still operating under the thought that this is an honest policy disagreement are either unpursuadeable or are just straight trolling.

Let's try this: How about the we call upon the Republicans to field a bill that actually improves the healthcare system, and then we debate them on that? I'm

Because no intellectually honest healthcare bill comes out that lessens the number of people covered, and especially to the tune of tens of millions.

I mean, shit, their Individual Mandate replacement make no sense at all! The penalty for not being insured for 3 or more months is... The cost of 3 months of coverage?!? So, if I go 4 months without before being fined, I still save 25% vs having been covered. It's win/win for those trying to buck the system.

Easily claculatable shit like that shows it's not an intellectually level honest healthcare bill.

 

[Mask]

Good, block it. They have nothing to lose. Dems are likely to make huge gains during the upcoming elections anyway, so if they can get the message out about republicans trying to take away people's healthcare, they'll have more to gain than they can lose. Only demographic they'll lose is the major trumpsters, but they're a tiny demographic anyway.

 

[royalan]

It's not a waste of time. It would be helpful politically for Democrats to have in hand a set of improvements they could point to. It's not like they deny it could be improved. It's not the biggest deal in the world but it would make the talking points better.

Exactly.

Guys, this is not trolling. Let's get this through our heads: functionally, as an argument, the ACA is dead. You do NOT take on AHCA by pointing to the Obamacare, because Obamacare is done. Even if we somehow stop AHCA, we will not save the ACA.

And yes, this is not about healthcare (it's about Republicans getting tax cuts), but if they're going to use the healthcare debate as their Trojan horse to get those tax cuts, then Democrats need to take them head on, not point back to legislation that is on its deathbed.

Every Democrat who ran for President last year talked about improving Obamacare. Show us what that looks like. Draft a bill. Get it scored. We already have Obamacare to start with. Instead of constantly pointing to the old dead thing (because we saw how fabulously that worked last year), point to the shiny new thing that is even more cost effective, covers even more people, and even more drastically emphasizes how full of shit Republicans are.

We will not beat Republicans by looking back. Look forward. Democrats need to use EVERY tool at their desposal. Republicans want to pretend that this is about healthcare? Fucking call them out on it.

I mean, what the fuck else is Chuck Schumer doing...

 

[Lord Frieza]

Exactly.

Guys, this is not trolling. Let's get this through our heads: functionally, as an argument, the ACA is dead. You do NOT take on AHCA by pointing to the Obamacare, because Obamacare is done. Even if we somehow stop AHCA, we will not save the ACA.

And yes, this is not about healthcare (it's about Republicans getting tax cuts), but if they're going to use the healthcare debate as their Trojan horse to get those tax cuts, then Democrats need to take them head on, not point back to legislation that is on its deathbed.

Every Democrat who ran for President last year talked about improving Obamacare. Show us what that looks like. Draft a bill. Get it scored. We already have Obamacare to start with. Instead of constantly pointing to the old dead thing (because we saw how fabulously that worked last year), point to the shiny new thing that is even more cost effective, covers even more people, and even more drastically emphasizes how full of shit Republicans are.

We will not beat Republicans by looking back. Look forward. Democrats need to use EVERY tool at their desposal. Republicans want to pretend that this is about healthcare? Fucking call them out on it.

I mean, what the fuck else is Chuck Schumer doing...

Missing the point. There will be no bill debated that the Democrats make. There will be no option here. The democrats already have an option, the bill they spent years making, the bill that is skyrocketing in popularity against a bill that has incredibly low approval ratings: it's the ACA.

It's insane, you guys are literally saying that Democrats should submit to Trump and the GOP, abandoned a bill that is now more popular than it has ever been in its entire history, to waste time making a bill that will never see a debate, much less a vote. The fuck is Chuck Schumer doing? Thank God not listening to this nonsense, because all you guys are doing is advocating wasting time to do something they are already doing.

 

[royalan]

Missing the point. There will be no bill debated that the Democrats make. There will be no option here. The democrats already have an option, the bill they spent years making, the bill that is skyrocketing in popularity against a bill that has incredibly low approval ratings: it's the ACA.

It's insane, you guys are literally saying that Democrats should submit to Trump and the GOP, abandoned a bill that is now more popular than it has ever been in its entire history, to waste time making a bill that will never see a debate, much less a vote. The fuck is Chuck Schumer doing? Thank God not listening to this nonsense, because all you guys are doing is advocating wasting time to do something they are already doing.

You can rant and rave about how great Obamacare is. It IS great. Flawed, but great. I have insurance because of Obamacare. But you're missing the point.

The ACA is dead.

And it's not dead because it's not a great, progressive piece of legislation. It's dead because it needs money. Money that Republicans have refused, and will continue to refuse, to give it. They're essentially starving it to death regardless of how popular it is.

So yeah, Obamacare is wonderful. But it's dead. Its legacy will be in getting the majority of the American public to realize that healthcare should be something guaranteed by our government, and that alone will make it one of the most pivotal pieces of legislation in our nation's history. But as it stands now? Dead.

As a grassroots organizer, I'm thinking about messaging. And one thing Democratic legislators have sucked at, and continue to suck at, is giving us material. Giving their pundits, and activists, and organizers red meat to rile up the base and bludgeon the right with. Republicans want to pretend that their blatant cash grab is really about healthcare? Fine. Let's battle. Because they can't win this battle in the court of public opinion. We'll produce a bill even better than Obamacare, that will score better than AHCA, demonstrably cover more people, because even if Hillary had won that's what was going to happen. And when we go to war with that bill, people will look for the differences, and the only differences they'll find are...tax cuts for the wealthy.

Look, I hate that Obamacare is in the state its in. Because it is the crowning piece of legislation from the First Black President, legislation that saved lives. And I worked my fucking ass off to elect the person who would have protected it.

But if we stop AHCA? What next? The GOP won't allocate funds to save the ACA. It'll still die the tortured death it's dying right now. And what's more the Republican talking points will still be in place. They'll still be able to go on the news and write bullshit think pieces, about how the ACA is a failure, and how we need to trust their vision.

 

[Lord Frieza]

You can rant and rave about how great Obamacare is. It IS great. Flawed, but great. I have insurance because of Obamacare. But you're missing the point.

The ACA is dead.

And it's not dead because it's not a great, progressive piece of legislation. It's dead because it needs money. Money that Republicans have refused, and will continue to refuse, to give it. They're essentially starving it to death regardless of how popular it is.

So yeah, Obamacare is wonderful. But it's dead. Its legacy will be in getting the majority of the American public to realize that healthcare should be something guaranteed by our government, and that alone will make it one of the most pivotal pieces of legislation in our nation's history. But as it stands now? Dead.

As a grassroots organizer, I'm thinking about messaging. And one thing Democratic legislators have sucked at, and continue to suck at, is giving us material. Giving their pundits, and activists, and organizers red meat to rile up the base and bludgeon the right with. Republicans want to pretend that their blatant cash grab is really about healthcare? Fine. Let's battle. Because they can't win this battle in the court of public opinion. We'll produce a bill even better than Obamacare, that will score better than AHCA, demonstrably cover more people, because even if Hillary had won that's what was going to happen. And when we go to war with that bill, people will look for the differences, and the only differences they'll find are...tax cuts for the wealthy.

Look, I hate that Obamacare is in the state its in. Because it is the crowning piece of legislation from the First Black President, legislation that saved lives. And I worked my fucking ass off to elect the person who would have protected it.

But if we stop AHCA? What next? The GOP won't allocate funds to save the ACA. It'll still die the tortured death it's dying right now. And what's more the Republican talking points will still be in place. They'll still be able to go on the news and write bullshit think pieces, about how the ACA is a failure, and how we need to trust their vision.

I really can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you really just don't understand how little sense what you're saying makes. This argument has nothing to do with what I think of the ACA. Did I say anything about how great it is? No, not at all. Because this isn't about my personal opinion. But, at this point, I really don't think there's any point arguing, because I feel like you've fallen into the double standard of the right/left and proposing literally one of if not, the, dumbest waste of time the Democrats can possibly do in the situation they are in.

For all the talk of 'spineless' Democrats, it's amazing to think people really propose the Democrats abandoning their own bill at the hype of its popularity to make a bill that will never see debate and become white noise. But whatever, I don't know what else to say about it.

 

[Aaron]

It's not a waste of time. It would be helpful politically for Democrats to have in hand a set of improvements they could point to. It's not like they deny it could be improved. It's not the biggest deal in the world but it would make the talking points better.

Using facts and logic against the GOP? That's an enormous waste of time.

 

[Valhelm]

Exactly.

Guys, this is not trolling. Let's get this through our heads: functionally, as an argument, the ACA is dead. You do NOT take on AHCA by pointing to the Obamacare, because Obamacare is done. Even if we somehow stop AHCA, we will not save the ACA.

And yes, this is not about healthcare (it's about Republicans getting tax cuts), but if they're going to use the healthcare debate as their Trojan horse to get those tax cuts, then Democrats need to take them head on, not point back to legislation that is on its deathbed.

Every Democrat who ran for President last year talked about improving Obamacare. Show us what that looks like. Draft a bill. Get it scored. We already have Obamacare to start with. Instead of constantly pointing to the old dead thing (because we saw how fabulously that worked last year), point to the shiny new thing that is even more cost effective, covers even more people, and even more drastically emphasizes how full of shit Republicans are.

We will not beat Republicans by looking back. Look forward. Democrats need to use EVERY tool at their desposal. Republicans want to pretend that this is about healthcare? Fucking call them out on it.

I mean, what the fuck else is Chuck Schumer doing...

Good post, although I think that cost-effectiveness is a lot less important than proving to voters that this legislation will help you.

Democrats need to realize that the best defence is a good offense. Always be proactive and always find a way to out-do the GOP.

 

[Big Baybee]

I really can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you really just don't understand how little sense what you're saying makes. This argument has nothing to do with what I think of the ACA. Did I say anything about how great it is? No, not at all. Because this isn't about my personal opinion. But, at this point, I really don't think there's any point arguing, because I feel like you've fallen into the double standard of the right/left and proposing literally one of if not, the, dumbest waste of time the Democrats can possibly do in the situation they are in.

For all the talk of 'spineless' Democrats, it's amazing to think people really propose the Democrats abandoning their own bill at the hype of its popularity to make a bill that will never see debate and become white noise. But whatever, I don't know what else to say about it.

ACA is on its deathbed. What do you propose Dems run on in 2018? Bring back Obamacare? Or brand new legislation even better than it?

 

[royalan]

I really can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you really just don't understand how little sense what you're saying makes. This argument has nothing to do with what I think of the ACA. Did I say anything about how great it is? No, not at all. Because this isn't about my personal opinion. But, at this point, I really don't think there's any point arguing, because I feel like you've fallen into the double standard of the right/left and proposing literally one of if not, the, dumbest waste of time the Democrats can possibly do in the situation they are in.

For all the talk of 'spineless' Democrats, it's amazing to think people really propose the Democrats abandoning their own bill at the hype of its popularity to make a bill that will never see debate and become white noise. But whatever, I don't know what else to say about it.

You're not getting it.

Nobody is saying "abandon" Obamacare. But acknowledging that it's functionally dying in the hands of a GOP controlled government is not abandoning it.

Every Democrat who ran in the primary did so with the promise of overhauling and improving Obamacare. Bernie Sanders ran on completely morphing it into Medicare For All. Not a single fucking one advocated keeping it as it is.

So do that. Don't abandon Obamacare, give us its successor. The glory bill that would have been. Demonstrate that this isn't just a partisan fight for the Democrats. That this isn't just about protecting the achievements of a D President. Prove that the Democratic party has been, and will always be, the party that believes that healthcare should be a right for every American. You don't do that by constantly pointing to a dying bill. You do that by showing yeah, you're strangling that bill. But guess what? We have an even better one...

And yeah, as has been said this fight isn't really about healthcare. But Democrats aren't in the position to allow the GOP any open windows. They want to pretend this is about healthcare? Engage them.

 

[hermit7]

Dems should use every procedure they can to delay the passage of the bill.

ACA is dead not because of the AHCA but because there is uncertainty in the market as a result of the POTUS threatening to stop making subsidy payments.

That's why all the insurers are dropping out of the markets and we are seeing more large increases in premiums. Dems need to message a bit better on the harm that is being done and place it squarely on the shoulders of Trump. Once/if the bill passes the senate (we are fairly certain it is going to pass with 50+1 votes) then they need to message to seniors and the people that are directly going to be impacted by it.

My hope is that the ACA gets fixed, and that the markets can stabilize and that the subsidy payments can be made to ensure that the insurance companies are able to remain in markets. I think though that the GOP are so ineffective at governance that they will do whatever they can to ensure its failure and give their "savings" to the wealthy.