Skellig Gra
Member
Ok I'll do that if you stop being an aggressive jerk to people. Deal?
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Senate Democrats weigh blockade to protest GOP health care plan
- Thread starter Tovarisc
- Start date
you have to look at the reality. if senate republicans are able to carve out something acceptable amongst their majority it *will* pass
i just don't see how caterwauling and blocking appointments really makes the case for democrats. and you can't really tie it to some noble purpose because it'd be passed anyway.
i just don't see how caterwauling and blocking appointments really makes the case for democrats. and you can't really tie it to some noble purpose because it'd be passed anyway.
Are you an amirox alt account?
jackissocool
Member
You're so on point this thread
SJurgenson
Banned
Deal. But I'll hold you to that.
With that over, I want to write a bit in general about why I hate defeatist bullshit.
Let's look at the Neil Gorsuch appointment. It can be reasonably argued that the Republicans were able to steal that seat, in part because of the inaction of Obama and Democrats.
When Trump nominated Gorsuch, there were people arguing that the Democrats should not filibuster him, because McConnell would then nuke the filibuster. The thinking went that it would be better to save the filibuster for a more important battle. That argument never made much sense:
1. Trump was replacing hard-right Scalia with a hard-right Gorsuch. The ideological delta between the two is minuscule; the balance of the Supreme Court is unchanged.
2. If the Republicans were willing to nuke the SCOTUS appointment filibuster over an appointment that did not change the ideological make-up of the court, why wouldn't they do it on one that would?
If Democrats didn't filibuster Gorsuch, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg died in her sleep six months later, McConnell would awake from his slumber screaming "NUKE IT!" before Schumer even heard the news.
So, that argument was always bunk. The real argument the Senate Democrats were having is the same here -- 'why bother'? We all knew that the seat was Trump's to fill the second he won, and that nothing was going to stop that. The battle never was to save the seat, the battle was to resist and show that the Democrats were going to fight tooth-and-nail.
So, if the battle were lost before it was started, why bother? Because fighting does not just affect this battle, it affects the next. It riles up the public, and the Democratic base to pay attention and fight harder themselves.
That was a case where a loss was a 100% certainty, and they still fought back by filibustering. To claim that fighting back is useless is to not realize that you can still win a war while losing battles.
In the case of healthcare, it is not a certainty that the AHCA will pass. So the Democrats should fight, they should fight dirty, and they should fight to the last man -- because even if they lose this battle, they will energize the base and the public for the next battle.
SJurgenson
Banned
OK, here's my vision on how to fight and win:
1. Throw civility, Senate decorum, and 'playing fair' out of the window. Do everything legally and procedurally in the book to slow down the progress of the bill. Hell, do things out of the procedural book to waste time being called out for it being out-of-procedure.
2. The delay tactics keep the bill from passing before the July 4th recess, the deadlines the Senate Republicans set for themselves.
3. The news reporting of the Democratic fight will be read and heard by millions of Americans, causing a non-zero number of them to take action -- writing their Senator, protesting, going to their Senator's town hall, etc.
4. During the recess, the Senators on the fence about the bill will see the public outcry and will be pressured into voting no.
5. The bill does not have enough votes to pass.
The reason the Republicans are doing this quickly and in secret is because they don't want the public to find out, flip their shit, and yell at their Senators before they vote on it. Considering that is their plan, we need to fight their attempt at secrecy and calm with a giant backlash of publicity and anger.
this would just be standard tit-for-tat 'do nothing congress' procedural nonsense to the public at large.
you're looking to move the needle of public opinion go out and campaign against raised premiums, lower quality, some 20 million having the carpet yanked beneath them, ect
its important to have ideals but being a liberal firebrand isn't necessarily going to get things done
LegendofJoe
Member
They won't, the one media outlet who could turn the tide is Fox News and they will do nothing. They're owned by a foreigner who cares nothing for this country, only for fattening his own bottom line.
Conservative voters are some of the easiest marks in the world. They're a cash cow for anyone immoral enough to take advantage of people.
Fox News being filled with scam advertisements: not an accident.
LegendofJoe
Member
Gold, the best investment money can buy. Oh and don't forget reverse mortgages so you can afford to eat AND pay for your medications. Isn't that the Amerian dream - to live just long enough to die penniless? Those damn liberals taxing you to death.
WiiredShawn
Member
Because America has run on an honor system that doesn't work when its actors are no longer honorable.
SJurgenson
Banned
Please let me know when the Senate Democrats can go out and campaign against those things. I don't think there's an election in the next two weeks, and I'm pretty sure the Democrats have always been against those things.
Your solution to a historically secret and rushed attempted at passing a bill is to play fair, but a bit louder?
Fuck that. Next up you're going to tell me that Trump won because of his well-articulated detailed policies and firm and stoic demeanor.
Why is that when defeatists want to answer why Trump won, it is because his bravado spurned his base to rise up and take political action -- but when those same people are asked what Democrats should do, the answer always is 'nothing -- because nothing will change anything, as public opinion won't be swayed'?
Why the fuck does riling up the base and prompting political action through unchecked bravado and legislatively pointless grandstanding work for the Republicans, but not the Democrats?
Please, I'm waiting for an answer.
This post is exactly right.
Democrats have no power in the House or the Senate. They literally can't "get things done."
The ONLY thing Democrats can do right now, the only card they have to play, is to keep their base engaged. And the only way they do that is by proving at every opportunity that Democrats are the party of the resistance. That won't happen on its own, and as we learned last year merely standing back and letting Republicans prove how awful they are is not a guarantee that enough people will join us.
Sitting back and playing "we'll let you have this one, Republicans. But just you wait..." gets nothing done but putting our base to sleep which is exactly what Republicans want.
SJurgenson
Banned
I'm going to agree with you, except for one point:
"The ONLY thing Democrats can do right now, the only card they have to play, is to keep their base engaged. "
That is UNTRUE. While they cannot do anything legislatively, they can grind the process to a halt -- they can chain themselves to Senate lunch counters to keep the bill from passing before July 4th.
Here's the current thought on something Senate Democrats can do to slow down the bill: Filibuster by Amendment
Basically, the Democratic senators can offer up amendments to the bill before it is voted upon. Obviously, the Republicans will vote down all amendments -- but there is no limit to the number of amendments that can be offered up. So, just keep offering up minor, bullshit amendments.
Is the plan foolproof? Probably not, but it's a hell of a lot better than doing nothing. At worst it shows the Democrats are still fighting.
ask yourself where the leverage lies though. most senate republicans don't want to touch the bill in its current form. trump himself more or less conceded he's not signing off on the legislation as is. it's even more unpopular than obamacare was in 09 (read: very unpopular).
its not like they particularly have an ace up their sleeve here
SJurgenson
Banned
If you really think, that given no additional pressure, that Senate Republicans and Trump won't turn AHCA into law -- I have a bridge to sell you.
Do the prospects of it passing seem lower than they did a week ago? Sure, but that's no excuse to lay down on the field.
Repealing Obamacare has been the single biggest domestic policy of the Republican Party since the ACA was enacted. They would claw out the eyes of their goddamn grandchildren to see ACA killed. These are not people you lay your guard down around.
Edit:
I also want to refute the bullshit idea of 'why bother' in particular.
Let's look at this in a game theory sense, at the pros/cons of all actions.
Case 1: AHCA on track to pass. Democrats do nothing.
Worst Case Scenario: AHCA passes, millions lose health care.
Best Case Scenario: AHCA passes, millions lose health care.
Cost of Democratic Action: None
Positive Result of Democratic Action: None
Case 2: AHCA on track to fail. Democrats do nothing.
Worst Case Scenario: AHCA fails.
Best Case Scenario: AHCA fails.
Cost of Democratic Action: None
Positive Result of Democratic Action: None
Case 3: AHCA on track to pass. Democrats fight back.
Worst Case Scenario: AHCA passes, millions lose health care.
Best Case Scenario: Democratic action stops the AHCA from passing.
Cost of Democratic Action: Minor
Positive Result of Democratic Action: Major. AHCA fails.
Case 4: AHCA on track to fail. Democrats fight back.
Worst Case Scenario: AHCA fails.
Best Case Scenario: AHCA fails.
Cost of Democratic Action: Minor
Positive Result of Democratic Action: Nothing, but AHCA still fails.
And before anyone claims that the 'Worst Case' in Case 4 is that Republican Senators shore up and manage to pass it due to Democratic resistance, that's bullshit. They are already motivated 100% to kill Obamacare, another fight with the Democrats won't spur them on harder -- that's absurd.
When you look at the potential costs and benefits of action, it is a no-brainer -- Democratic Senators should fight like hell.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
congratulation, you're no different than the radical right
RPGCrazied
Member
Democrats should do nothing. Like Republicans did for Obama. They control every branch and can't do anything. Sounds like they are the true obstructionists.
I don't really have any problem with the Democrats getting their hands a bit dirty but I'm not sure what just adding more obstruction does in a body whose approval ratings are in the gutter anyway, yet voters don't really punish it even despite unprecedented obstruction over the last 8 years.
Personally I would think the better approach here would be for Democrats to offer an alternative healthcare bill that they publicize heavily, pit directly against the Republican alternative in the public eye, make sure it's completely transparent and scored by the CBO. Then go ahead an play dirty with the optics, call it Obamacare 2.0 vs the Trumpcare Beta, clearly list out all the ways Ocare 2.0 preserves everything you liked about 1.0, makes improvements, helps even more people get healthcare readily, etc. Play up Trumpcare's unwillingness to be scored by the CBO as shady as not having the Carfax. Etc.
Personally I would think the better approach here would be for Democrats to offer an alternative healthcare bill that they publicize heavily, pit directly against the Republican alternative in the public eye, make sure it's completely transparent and scored by the CBO. Then go ahead an play dirty with the optics, call it Obamacare 2.0 vs the Trumpcare Beta, clearly list out all the ways Ocare 2.0 preserves everything you liked about 1.0, makes improvements, helps even more people get healthcare readily, etc. Play up Trumpcare's unwillingness to be scored by the CBO as shady as not having the Carfax. Etc.
longest_fart_ever.wav
I think they should do both.
SJurgenson
Banned
That makes no sense. This is not an honest debate in the marketplace of ideas. This is the Republicans shoving through a shitty healthcare bill in a matter of weeks, in secrecy.
Do you not understand that the Republicans DO NOT CARE about any details of the bill, or how it makes people feel? They just want to destroy Obama's legacy, and get that sweet sweet budget money to throw into tax breaks for the rich.
Lord Frieza
Member
That's a lot of time and effort that will end up with the same result in the end and really doesn't do anything.
SJurgenson
Banned
The Republicans are not interesting in fighting fair. Any solution that is 'fair' is not going to work. The Democrats have to fight dirty if they want any hope of winning.
Lord Frieza
Member
The approval ratings for this bill is like 17%. Old conservatives are pretty stupid in general, but when something affects them personally they can get surprisingly attentive. Not to mention a lot of medical associations had taken local TV news airtime to bash the bill
SenorArdilla
Member
Psychoward
Banned
How About No
Member
humans were the aliens all along!
Lord Frieza
Member
Dems can't block this. You're done.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
hodayathink
Member
They can try (and I want them to try), but all this is really about is delaying the bill so that a.) It's not done by the next recess, so Republican senators actually have to go back and face their constituents and b.) getting it out in public view long enough for people to read the details and, ideally, long enough for it to be scored by the CBO. Dems can't stop it without some Republicans turning against it.
I'm well aware of Republicans' true motives and I'm not expecting Democrats to confine themselves to strictly honest debate here. But if Democrats had a demonstrably better healthcare bill to offer RIGHT NOW, that they'd be publicizing to the high heavens, pointing out they have a CBO score and their bill isn't secret in any way...going on every network possible to talk it up and say they'd be happy to walk Pres. Trump and Repubs through it, if they'd just give us the time...meanwhile go right ahead and trash Trumpcare...if they had that, they'd be making a lot stronger case for themselves.
It's their fucking job, which is kinda what I'd preferred not to get lost in all this, "let them fight dirty - they need to stop taking the high road" rhetoric.Lord Frieza said:
Assuming all opinions are equally right, sure.
CornBurrito
Member
Wowfunhappy
Member
No, please don't freaking do this. Blocking EVERYTHING over one unrelated issue is undemocratic and antithetical to how the process is supposed to work. It's just as bad as the republicans tying key budget negotiations to Obamacare repeal bills.
(Yes, writing a bill behind closed doors is undemocratic too. So let's vote the morons out of office.)
I... have never seen this before.
Oh dear. Wow.
(Yes, writing a bill behind closed doors is undemocratic too. So let's vote the morons out of office.)
It is the American way.
I... have never seen this before.
Oh dear. Wow.
He's not wrong--in the sense that was the original intention of the Second Amendment. Hence why that amendment is stupid and outdated.
SJurgenson
Banned
There is a better bill -- The ACA and it is now law.
No debating will stop the Republicans. How do you not understand that?
If doing this now, to stop a horrendous bill that rips healthcare from 20+ million people is not the time, please let me know when is -- because this is once in a generational piece of horrible legislation that must be stopped at all costs.
No, please do. Millions of lives WILL die otherwise
SJurgenson
Banned
That's a bit of a stretch. People will likely die, no doubt. But 'millions' refers to those dropped from healthcare coverage.
Newsflash. Having worked closely to a state legislature, i can tell you that there is no "marketplace of ideas" in the legislative process. That marketplace is the province of academia and intellectuals, if it even exists at all. The legislative process as I've seen it and studied it is a cesspool of special interest drafted issue papers and influence. There is no sustained dialogue or discussion except as one might see in a show trial.
Lol worst argument ever.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
To hell with weighing it, contemplating it, considering it, ect...
It's time for Democrats in the Senate and House to be straight up obstructionists. The GOP has been governing explicitly on a philosophy of "will this piss off liberals" for almost a decade. There is zero motivation or incentive on ever trying to play nice.
We need to abandon the idea of working with these people. Their behavior on ramming this bill through with little to no input from the Dems makes it abundantly clear that they don't want to work together. Democrats need to play every little dirty trick in the book to make sure it's never passed in ANY form.
If we want to get anything done we need to focus on winning the majority of the house and Senate so some good can actually come of government. Some people might not like it but the vast majority of the population will be better off when Democrats are writing and passing legislation.
Just look back over the past 30 years nearly every single piece of legislation that helps the population at large is crafted by Dems. We've got to win elections and continue to block any GOP attempt to make laws until we do.
It's time for Democrats in the Senate and House to be straight up obstructionists. The GOP has been governing explicitly on a philosophy of "will this piss off liberals" for almost a decade. There is zero motivation or incentive on ever trying to play nice.
We need to abandon the idea of working with these people. Their behavior on ramming this bill through with little to no input from the Dems makes it abundantly clear that they don't want to work together. Democrats need to play every little dirty trick in the book to make sure it's never passed in ANY form.
If we want to get anything done we need to focus on winning the majority of the house and Senate so some good can actually come of government. Some people might not like it but the vast majority of the population will be better off when Democrats are writing and passing legislation.
Just look back over the past 30 years nearly every single piece of legislation that helps the population at large is crafted by Dems. We've got to win elections and continue to block any GOP attempt to make laws until we do.
Lord Frieza
Member
They offered to help improve the ACA, they've done their fucking job. Quit playing into the double standard of the right. There's literally no point for them to create a bill that has no chance of being voted on when they already have a bill in place that could be fixed that is their goddamn bill
You're point doesn't even make sense. They already have a bill that's better to point to as an alternative, it's called the ACA
kaname-san
Member
That's very logical but logic won't work on the people who already decided that the world is trash and everything is hopeless. I think they're better left ignored.
dead souls
Member
I hope they do, but they're democrats so they'll probably fold.
Lord Frieza
Member
Do people truly just not understand that the Democrats have no actual power in this? Are people even reading this article? The most they can do is slow down the process or hinder operations of the Senate, the former of which plays into what the GOP wants. The only thing they can do is add amendments, but the bill has to be put up first. Until then, all they can do is slow down the function of Congress. And if McConnell uses that substitute amendment thing they probably won't have any time to introduce amendments. There's no reason not to do this 'blockade,' but it's not an actual ability to stop anything.
Any fight at this point is symbolic. That isn't a reason for them not to fight, but people need to quit pretending like Democrats are just giving up or whatever, because they have nothing to really give up to begin with
Any fight at this point is symbolic. That isn't a reason for them not to fight, but people need to quit pretending like Democrats are just giving up or whatever, because they have nothing to really give up to begin with
Here is some shit they can do
Ezralevin's Tweet: https://twitter.com/ezralevin/status/875382866452119555?s=09
Lord Frieza
Member
I addressed that in my post. There's a rule called a submission amendment that can be used to bypass that.
Just expanding on yours