Support NeoGAF

[badb0y]

This just proves we should never assume anything until we have concrete information. I too believed that the Xbox One's CPU would be stronger because of the clock boost but apparently the PS4 is performing better. Either the PS4 CPU also got a clock boost or there's something else that is taking up resources on the Xbox One's CPU.

Also, I think we can safely throw this on the board:

"Xbox One CPU will perform better because DDR3 and ESRAM have lower latency than GDDR5!"

Debunked

If only I bookmarked all those posts on this issue with Senjutsusage, dr. Apocalyps(sp?), and cyberheater. The crow being served would be glorious!

 

[Dali]

No I'm not saying that at all. No future console will probably ever match the PS2 since the great graphical leap it had over the PS1 + "cheap DVD player" will probably never be duplicated in impact size.

What I am saying though is that many people choose a console based on the content it has vs. the competition, regardless of its rank in power within its respective gen. That's it.

Don't see what makes my opinion so controversial at all.

The problem is when you use a completely irrelevant example to make your point. PS2 was successor to previous gens number one console and based on psx would have exclusives that would define the gen. It released a year ahead of the competition which consisted of a first effort from an unproven company and a Nintendo console which was likely to not have the support the PS2 would enjoy as could be inferred by the previous gen. Oh yeah and the PS 2 could play all your old games from the previous gens #1 console. Pretty unheard of in the home console space I believe. And the dvd player thing too.

Now compare that to two well established brands releasing within a month of each other with comparable features. At the very least neither has the laundry list the PS2 had but one is still charging a $100 premium.

 

[GetemMa]

We should never be surprised when we found that Sony build's better hardware than MS.

It has always been this way.

 

[Naminator]

PS4 has:

Better CPU.
Better GPU.
Better RAM setup.
More RAM available.

OS

Faster (installs - UI )
Simpler
Social (streams)
Remote Play
Better Chat

Hardware design

Smaller
better looking
internal PSU

Software support:

More 1st party studious.
Complete support for indies.
Best console Multiplatform versions guaranteed.

VALUE:

you get the most powerful console on earth for $399 ($100 cheaper than main competitor)


Fatality!

You keep fighting the good fight bratha!

 

[badb0y]

We should never be surprised when we found that Sony build's better hardware than MS.

It has always been this way.

Xbox 360 was arguably better than the PS3, the only thing that saved the PS3 was it's CPU. On literally every other metric in terms of hardware the Xbox 360 was better.

 

[Optimis0r]

Xbox 360 was arguably better than the PS3, the only thing that saved the PS3 was it's CPU. On literally every other metric in terms of hardware the Xbox 360 was better.

yeah literally DVDs are better than Blu-Rays

 

[gtj1092]

No, both systems are starting well. That is all. What is evident is we always have each generation a few that like to paint the darkest picture possible. I know the X1 has larger hurdles to keep the momentum going but some of you guys seem to get a payoff making the X1 look bad.

Your posts extend beyond this thread. You jump in wherever a bad word is spoke of Xbox. You don't seem to run to the defense of Sony or Nintendo.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Uh, what?

I agree that they weren't as "AAA huge" but they were still popular and still made up a large portion of games being sold on consoles. Heck, certain multiplats (like Madden for example) were even more popular back then in comparison to now.

There's two problems with this:
1) It's good that you agree that they weren't as "AAA huge" (whatever that means) back then because it also points out how dumb your original point was. You were trying to downplay the importance of superior multiplatform games by pointing to the PS1 and PS2 alongside the PS3. In reality, that aspect only became a real selling point last gen when third parties gave up on releasing exclusives almost entirely.

2) Saying multiplatform games were better on the N64 than the PS1 is fucking ridiculous. Both systems had their advantages in that area and often they made the PS1 versions more appealing (price is important).

What "narrative"? It was pretty much a fact through a large portion of last gen that the 360 had better looking multiplats... especially early on. Even though this is true, it doesn't automatically negate the cases in which the multiplats looked pretty much the same.

Are you following your own argument?

Heh, okay -- if you say so.

I do say so.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Your posts extend beyond this thread. You jump in wherever a bad word is spoke of Xbox. You don't seem to run to the defense of Sony or Nintendo.

Whats there to defend? Nintendo is doing poorly with the Wii U and I'm not seeing anything remotely as bad going on with the PS4. The PS4 and X1 just came out and both have started out well out of the gates, what's the problem? The PS4 is doing better than the X1 but some of you make it appear the X1 has no hope and I'm not sure what the payoff of that is. We already have evidence the Wii U is struggling.

MS made a bunch of blunders this year prior to getting the message out for the X1 but have managed to turn things around. It's apparent some people can't seem to move on.

 

[Uno Venova]

Holy crap, what is BGamer arguing about?

Never ending cycle, people talk about the disadvantages of the XB1, he brings up the PS2, a console with some similarities, and also a number of significant advantages none of the consoles that released this year had. The poor points get refuted, it's brought up in the next thread.

 

[Melchiah]

It wasn't an issue for the PS2 mainly because it had a great game library and was a cheap DVD player. It's userbase (welll at least in the US) during 2000-2001 was obviously no where near the userbase it had in the US in say, 2004-2005.

You can't say this at all. We don't know what MS could put out years from now. The PS3 didn't get the ball rolling in terms of this until around the same time as the first PS3 slim remodel -- so around 2009. That's 3 years after launch.

Again, we don't know this. If the new IPs they introduce during the beginning of the gen are good and get great mainstream praise/word-of-mouth then they'll get a decent userbase that will support possible future sequels of those games.

The first xbox was launched worldwide in March 2002, by that time the PS2 had sold 28.68 million according to Wikia. More than Xbox sold during its life. The multiplatform games looking worse was inconsequential at that point.

Microsoft doesn't have as many 1st party studios as Sony, or Nintendo for that matter. So, we can be pretty sure even now, that their releases won't be as many and varied as the PS3's.

Sequels perhaps, but will they get new 3rd party exclusives if their userbase is lower? Mass Effect was also popular on the 360, but it didn't stop it coming to PS3. Think about how much easier it'll be to go multiplatform, if the PS4 is a more succesful system.

 

[Chumpion]

Devs still chronicling their multicore exploits? Ho fucking hum. Learn programming you noobs.

 

[serversurfer]

Really? That's very interesting if true since it being a cheap DVD player was all over mainstream media.

I'll admit my friends and I didn't spend much time watching the news, but if your claim is correct, I assume you'll be able to produce several links showing CNN, USA Today, and others encouraging consumers to buy the PS2 because it was a cheap DVD player?

Honestly, I'd never heard this narrative until XB360 fans were trying to dismiss PS3 sales as people only wanting a cheap BD player. Then the "… just like PS2" bit was tacked on at the end as "proof" of these claims.

You mean worldwide correct?

Correct. I don't think PS3 ever beat XB360 in the US apart from the odd month here and there. That's actually why I think "It's what my friends have" tends to be a bigger motivator than "So many exclusives!"

No, I definitely agree with that. My main point though was that there were many people who chose a PS2 vs. the competition after the competition was released solely based on the content and features the PS2 had in comparison.

I just brought that up since many people (big gamers matter of fact) who went with a PS2 that gen didn't really care about the advantages of the competition -- and again, I'm referring to people who bought the PS2 after its first year (which is the majority).

Here's where you lose me. Even if we accept your premise that having lots of appealing, exclusive content is what primarily drives sales, how does that argument apply to XBone? Sure, maybe you're right and people only flocked to PS2 because it had hundreds of de facto exclusives — including heavy hitters like Final Fantasy and GTA — where are MS going to find all of these exclusive to drive sales? They don't have a big head start like PS2 and XB360 did, so there are no de facto exclusives to speak of. Microsoft's first parties pale in comparison to Sony's. Yes, MS can buy exclusives from third parties, but that won't be cheap if PS4 has a substantial sales lead, not to mention the fact investors are watching the division like a hawk.

If you're predicting/hoping for an exclusive-driven surge to save XBone, where will it come from? One or two noteworthy exclusives won't drive that kind of shift. PS2 had tons of exclusives compared to the others; XBone isn't in the same situation, nor will it be.

It's like some people act as though there can only be one winner.

That's because this is almost invariably the case. Apart from Gen4, where SNES and Genesis arguably tied for first, every console generation has been dominated by a single winner. Nintendo won Gen7, as they often do. Sony won Gen6 and Gen5.

Usually, we have a pretty clear winner. It's not wishful thinking; it's just a fact.

This whole comment seems to come from someone who is mature and does not get emotionally attached to brands. Well said.

Wait. Brand loyalty equates to immaturity? Sorry, but I buy Apple, Sony, and Honda because they make excellent products, not because I think like a seven year old. Maybe you're thinking of people who buy products based on claims like "WE INVENTED DIRECTX!!" (which isn't even true, FWIW).

 

[badb0y]

yeah literally DVDs are better than Blu-Rays

I meant in terms of gaming. Blu ray is better than DVD but for gaming it's just a medium for game transportation, it doesn't have an actual affect on the quality of the game itself.

 

[QaaQer]

I meant in terms of gaming. Blu ray is better than DVD but for gaming it's just a medium for game transportation, it doesn't have an actual affect on the quality of the game itself.

sure it does, no split discs, less audio and gfx compression needed, etc.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

That's because this is almost invariably the case. Apart from Gen4, where SNES and Genesis arguably tied for first, every console generation has been dominated by a single winner. Nintendo won Gen7, as they often do. Sony won Gen6 and Gen5.

Usually, we have a pretty clear winner. It's not wishful thinking; it's just a fact.


Wait. Brand loyalty equates to immaturity? Sorry, but I buy Apple, Sony, and Honda because they make excellent products, not because I think like a seven year old. Maybe you're thinking of people who buy products based on claims like "WE INVENTED DIRECTX!!" (which isn't even true, FWIW).

That's not what I meant by a winner. Of course we will have one system do better than the others. The point is there can still be more than one successful product in each generation. We just came out of a generation where the Wii sold 100 million units and the PS3 and XBox 360 sold roughly 80 million. Wiil it repeat itself? Who knows but the start has the PS4 doing amazing and the X1 doing quite well with the Wii U struggling but we are really just starting.

The second part perhaps didn't come across as I would have liked. Nothing wrong with trusting a brand, heck for many years Sony was the go to brand for TV's. However when it comes to game systems each generation starts fresh. We buy cars and TV's based a lot of the build quality, with gaming there's much more to it. Which further complicates things is we have systems like the XBox and Playstation brand that are awfully familiar in what each offer including software. Perhaps that is why the two sides are the most heated because any little difference gets magnified to the fullest. There is still no reason to play sides if you truly enjoy the hobby. At least to the point of always making one seem like that's the one to get while the other is a waste of money. What's the payoff in that other than to be a console warrior?

I guess I am not one to go rushing out buying a game product based solely on its history. It took years before the PS3 came into its own while the XBox 360 started out strong and faded. So who knows what will happen this generation.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

https://twitter.com/albertpenello/status/375020375824150528

 

[timlot]

https://twitter.com/albertpenello/status/375020375824150528

I'm just going to throw this out there. Do you think Microsoft never had access to PS4 developer kits?

 

[QaaQer]

I'm just going to throw this out there. Do you think Microsoft never had access to PS4 developer kits?

legally?

 

[imt558]

https://twitter.com/albertpenello/status/375020375824150528

Yes, dat 150 MHz upclock.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Sorry to be that guy, but for those who don't have time to read through all posts, do we have any additional details as to how the PS4 CPU is outperforming Xbone's?

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I'm just going to throw this out there. Do you think Microsoft never had access to PS4 developer kits?

Wherever this 1.6 number came from, everyone believed it.

 

[Melchiah]

I'll admit my friends and I didn't spend much time watching the news, but if your claim is correct, I assume you'll be able to produce several links showing CNN, USA Today, and others encouraging consumers to buy the PS2 because it was a cheap DVD player?

Honestly, I'd never heard this narrative until XB360 fans were trying to dismiss PS3 sales as people only wanting a cheap BD player. Then the "… just like PS2" bit was tacked on at the end as "proof" of these claims.

PS2 wasn't really that cheap DVD player in Europe, as it cost here 500€ at launch. So there goes that argument. People often presume everything is as it is in NA.

 

[QaaQer]

Sorry to be that guy, but for those who don't have time to read through all posts, do we have any additional details as to how the PS4 CPU is outperforming Xbone's?

Nope. Just confirmation from matt that it does.

 

[krioto]

Holy crap, what is BGamer arguing about?

i pity the poor unsuspecting posters that even attempt to discuss anything with this guy. obfuscation and fud at its finest.

 

[Bgamer90]

If true? What reason do you have to doubt his anecdotal account of his friends' awareness of the DVD feature? It's certainly far more believable (and verifiable) than your claim that the PS2 was touted so heavily as a DVD player by the media that no one could possibly miss that fact (all the time? Throughout the entirety of the PS2's lifespan?).

Why? Because the PS2 didn't continue to have advantages after the first year? Features that people care about in luxury products tend to be subjective, but a couple that do seem to be fairly universally important in the GAME console market are a robust library and healthy ongoing developer support.

???

I'm not doubting what he said at all. I simply said that it's interesting.

And yes, many people got the PS2 due to it being a cheap DVD player. DVD movie sales greatly went up after the PS2 was released.

 

[Bgamer90]

At the time the PS2 had GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Gran Turismo and other games in that calibur at a quantity you could not find on the Xbox or Gamecube, power was largely not a consideration because of this, although I do think the Xbox's power was a factor in carving the market it did albeit very limited in comparison to the PS2.

I definitely agree -- and yes, GTA3 and GT3 were huge system sellers.

Heck, Gran Turismo 3 was a huge system seller throughout the majority of that gen since GT4 came out so late. People bought a PS2 just mainly for that game for many years.

 

[kartu]

Can't this be explained with simply faster RAM?

Both CPUs are ass.

Both CPUs are damn good for what one would expect in a console, given price & power restrictions.

 

[shem935]

i pity the poor unsuspecting posters that even attempt to discuss anything with this guy. obfuscation and fud at its finest.

Oh man I remember my first time...soooooo frustrating...ended up rage quiting gaf for the day.

 

[GamingIsDead]

Can't this be explained with simply faster RAM?


Both CPUs are damn good for what one would expect in a console, given price & power restrictions.

Not really they are big bottle neck. They should have taken a bigger loss to make a more balanced platform.

 

[kartu]

Not really they are big bottle neck. They should have taken a bigger loss to make a more balanced platform.

Knowing things better than Microsoft's & Sony's hardware designers with decades of experience, I'm pretty sure you can easily name a bunch of games in which CPUs are slowing things down.

 

[Bgamer90]

I don't think you understand why the PS2 dominated, they had exclusivity on series such as Final fantasy, MGS, GTA, DMC, aswell as their first party offerings of course like God of war and gran turismo on top of backwards compatibility for PS1 games.

Yes, again gaming content. That's my whole point. If a system has exclusive gaming content that's appealing, then people will want the system that has that content.

You always seems to bring up ps2 vs. gamecube, it's as if your stuck in time 10 years ago.

I bring it up because it's a fitting example that proves that people can be attracted to the content that a console has even if it's more expensive & weaker.

Again, I don't see what makes me stating this so controversial at all. Heck, I pretty much agree with what most of you guys are saying and am stating so in my replies but for some reason some of you still want to strongly criticize what I've said.

 

[Bgamer90]

i pity the poor unsuspecting posters that even attempt to discuss anything with this guy. obfuscation and fud at its finest.

Thanks man!

Haha, but I'm used to this. Got similar replies when stating why I thought the Wii would still do well (months before it launched), and last year in terms of my predictions of the problems the Wii U would face.

Learned that sometimes being a contrarian doesn't seem to mesh well when having discussions on gaming forums during the launch periods of consoles.

 

[onanie]

???

I'm not doubting what he said at all. I simply said that it's interesting.

And yes, many people got the PS2 due to it being a cheap DVD player. DVD movie sales greatly went up after the PS2 was released.

It seems you just admitted that consumers are price sensitive.

 

[kyser73]

I definitely agree -- and yes, GTA3 and GT3 were huge system sellers.

Heck, Gran Turismo 3 was a huge system seller throughout the majority of that gen since GT4 came out so late. People bought a PS2 just mainly for that game for many years.

Do you have any evidence to support this and the many other assertions you've been asking? I know it's the Internet and all, but at least showing one or two items that support what you're saying would be...well, polite? In the spirit of good debate?

 

[imt558]

Do you have any evidence to support this and the many other assertions you've been asking? I know it's the Internet and all, but at least showing one or two items that support what you're saying would be...well, polite? In the spirit of good debate?

Well, some people ( from GTsurgeons.com ) bought PS2, GT3 or 4, Recaro seat, Logitech Steering Wheel ( official for GT3 or GT4 ) and played Gran Turismo for entire console generation.

 

[dr_rus]

Both CPUs are damn good for what one would expect in a console, given price & power restrictions.

ULV Ivy Bridge in my laptop says no.

 

[serversurfer]

Can't this be explained with simply faster RAM?

No. As pointed out in the OP, this benchmark isn't affected by memory, or anything else outside of the CPU itself.

That's not what I meant by a winner.

That's kinda what "winner" means.

Of course we will have one system do better than the others. The point is there can still be more than one successful product in each generation. We just came out of a generation where the Wii sold 100 million units and the PS3 and XBox 360 sold roughly 80 million. Wiil it repeat itself? Who knows but the start has the PS4 doing amazing and the X1 doing quite well with the Wii U struggling but we are really just starting.

I'll agree that Gen7 was closer than most, but it's hard to argue Nintendo didn't win, especially when you look at the financials.

Regardless, you asked why everyone assumed there's one winner per generation. People assume that because that's generally how it works. Is it possible we'll see a repeat of Gen4 except with Sony and MS splitting the win? Sure, but it's just not very likely, especially with XBone already sitting unsold.

However when it comes to game systems each generation starts fresh.

Where'd you get that idea? You're claiming that every generation, all companies involved lose all of their expertise and start from scratch? Seriously?

And yes, many people got the PS2 due to it being a cheap DVD player. DVD movie sales greatly went up after the PS2 was released.

So… you claimed that the mainstream media was pimping PS2 as a cheap DVD player. I asked for some evidence to support this assertion, and instead of providing it, you simply repeat your original claim and back it up with an ass-sourced assertion that the PS2 is what drove DVD adoption. WTF?

Heck, Gran Turismo 3 was a huge system seller throughout the majority of that gen since GT4 came out so late. People bought a PS2 just mainly for that game for many years.

Would it be foolish for me to ask for some evidence to support your implication that a significant number of PS2 sales came from people buying the system just to play GT?

Yes, again gaming content. That's my whole point. If a system has exclusive gaming content that's appealing, then people will want the system that has that content.

And again, what will be the source of this deluge of exclusive content which motivates people to adopt the XBone en masse?

Haha, but I'm used to [being called a FUD-spreader].

I'm starting to understand why…

 

[coldfoot]

We don't. We've just heard the XBone reserves two cores, while PS4 only reserves one.

Where did "we" hear that PS4 reserves one core? Both KZ and BF4 presentations show 6 cores being used for games. The only reason people are speculating 7 cores is because of this performance graph, but this performance graph is for single core only, the gulf between the ios cpus prove that.

 

[coldfoot]

ULV Ivy Bridge in my laptop says no.

You're comparing a $200+ CPU to one inside a $400 console?

 

[Lady Gaia]

The article in question references a graph post on the algorithmic site with little or no real insight. Whether the "1 CPU" note on the graph means one core or not is unspecified, as is the source language for the toolkit. If it's the same object code on both platforms that's one thing, but it could well be a C or C++ library which means the toolchain used to compile the code becomes a factor. As would any compiler and linker flags, etc.

It's clearly indicative of some sort of advantage for the PS4, but how representative and how sustainable that advantage is remains unclear.

 

[fatgamecat]

"Yes, you can get more out of the PS4's CPU than you can the Xbox's." could include working game code as well as benchmarks.

I highly doubt they clocked it to 2GHz, that would be a large heat/watt increase. They'd be better off (for games performance) increasing the GPU clock rate instead. Not sure on 1 or 2 clock reserve.

It's probably a combination of a slight clock bump to 1.7-1.8 and software issues (less overhead and or different libraries).

 

[BigDug13]

Do you have any evidence to support this and the many other assertions you've been asking? I know it's the Internet and all, but at least showing one or two items that support what you're saying would be...well, polite? In the spirit of good debate?

After I experienced GTA3 on PC, I bought a PS2 for the first time because GTA:VC was going to be timed exclusive. It's anecdotal and all that but I was one of those gamers. Otherwise GCN and Xbox were my platforms after PC.

 

[TAJ]

I highly doubt they clocked it to 2GHz, that would be a large heat/watt increase. T

A large issue when that's what it's designed to run at? In a netbook enclosure no less.

 

[serversurfer]

Where did "we" hear that PS4 reserves one core?

Same place we heard that XBone reserves two — the rumor mill. Of course, as I pointed out, the mill was clearly wrong about the PS4's clock, so it's possible it's wrong about this as well.

That said, it's logical PS4 would have a smaller OS reservation; it doesn't need to support snapping, and it has a separate ARM processor which can lighten the load by handling background downloads, etc.

Both KZ and BF4 presentations show 6 cores being used for games.

I've only seen the KZ presentation, but it was from the February reveal, so it's possible they weren't yet sure how many cores they'd have access to in the final hardware.

WRT BF, it's cross-platform, and if they needed to make it run on six cores on XBone, it's unlikely they'd use seven on PS4, especially if it's clocked higher than XBone anyway. Plus, it's a launch game; devs may be more inclined to make "full use" of the PS4 if/when it develops a substantial sales lead.

The only reason people are speculating 7 cores is because of this performance graph, but this performance graph is for single core only, the gulf between the ios cpus prove that.

I don't think that's the only reason.

Since you seem to have already done the legwork, would you mind breaking down how we can use the iOS results to determine this is a per-core benchmark? <3

The article in question references a graph post on the algorithmic site with little or no real insight. Whether the "1 CPU" note on the graph means one core or not is unspecified, as is the source language for the toolkit. If it's the same object code on both platforms that's one thing, but it could well be a C or C++ library which means the toolchain used to compile the code becomes a factor. As would any compiler and linker flags, etc.

It's clearly indicative of some sort of advantage for the PS4, but how representative and how sustainable that advantage is remains unclear.

I don't see any reason to assume the benchmark is flawed…

 

[Truespeed]

The chip specs said up to 2ghz... Who didn't see this coming?

The same one's that didn't see 8GB of GDDR5 coming.

 

[Truespeed]

PS4 has:

Better CPU.
Better GPU.
Better RAM setup.
More RAM available.

OS

Faster (installs - UI )
Simpler
Social (streams)
Remote Play
Better Chat

Hardware design

Smaller
better looking
internal PSU

Software support:

More 1st party studious.
Complete support for indies.
Best console Multiplatform versions guaranteed.

VALUE:

you get the most powerful console on earth for $399 ($100 cheaper than main competitor)


Fatality!

This sticker needs to be slapped on the box.

 

[imt558]

Where did "we" hear that PS4 reserves one core? Both KZ and BF4 presentations show 6 cores being used for games. The only reason people are speculating 7 cores is because of this performance graph, but this performance graph is for single core only, the gulf between the ios cpus prove that.

It was a more than a half year ago and final devkit doesn't exists. And probably there was some hardware changes to date.

 

[kyser73]

So has anyone done an actual benchmarking for the two new consoles?

 

[ultratruman]

Looking at the Xbox One's launch from a distance makes the whole thing seem so bizarre. They've shot themselves in the foot, chest and head almost weekly since the unveiling, in almost every aspect of its design. It's almost impossible to imagine what state the people with power were in before it launched, and how quickly their arrogance evaporated after the first meaningful pre-order figures started coming through.

I for one am eagerly awating Yusuf Mehdi's tell-all book.