QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I'll admit when something is hard, but sometimes it's just the person playing that doesn't have the ability to adjust more than it being hard.
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Tekken Revolution PS3 Excusive Free To Play 6/11/13
- Thread starter Mengetsu
- Start date
I'll admit when something is hard, but sometimes it's just the person playing that doesn't have the ability to adjust more than it being hard.
It's a very legitimate criticism- many things in Tekken are super-reactionary and not easy, many things are convoluted such as the backdash cancel
VF got rid of BDC, but it does have ECD which is a criticism of VF, but it's not as bad as Tekken, and more bustable.
Why go through all that when you can play VF or SC which are easier games that are at least as good? The current way Tekken is- I think one of the top Tekken players said to be good in TTT2 you had to start in Tekken 5. New players aren't going to go through all that. Why should they when you can get good at something else for 1/10th the effort- it's not like Tekken gives 10 times the reward.
Tekken's pitiful performance at majors compared to previous games in the series is a sign that new players aren't coming- that trend will continue unless something changes.
I definitely agree. A large part of learning a fighter is humble pie.
There is, for the most part, nothing presently wrong with the series. In fact, TTT2 is the best Tekken has EVER been.
No. Whoever said that is wrong. We have players in the Tekken community presently that started with TTT2 as their first game and performed very well during final round.
People used to say Tekken is easy as hell. A button masher that doesn't take any skill to master. It was, in fact, a Tekken stereotype. Now, all of a sudden, the game is too hard for these same people.
It's not. The way many people are learning it is making it hard. Tekken does take a lot of skill to learn but it is also equally rewarding. People just have to practice right and the game becomes easier to learn.
Even on this website, you can look at AAK and see how many crazy good improvements he's made since just Tekken 6.
It's a stereotype of people that don't know what they're doing that lost (or played)to Eddie Gordo. You hear the same thing about SC because of Maxi or Kilik. I doubt it's the same people saying it, as anybody that knows what they're doing never lost to a scrubby Maxi or Kilik, and people that have an inkling to learn wouldn't call a game a button masher.
I know you're biased towards VF, but come on now. I didn't like T6, but I followed the game. Turnouts for TTT2 are overall higher than T6, and FR16 was one of the biggest Tekken majors in a long time. TFC looks like it will be the next big Tekken major. Players play Tekken for a variety of reasons, but 3D players play it because VF/SC have nearly nonexistent competitive scenes.
As for convoluted shit, yes Tekken has plenty of it, but VF has just as much more or more. And unlike most other games you actually need to learn all of it because there are barely any scrubs in VF, most people who play VF are dedicated to VF. I like VF a lot and I still feel like I'm learning all the BS. Fuzzy guard, fuzzy guard os bf+p, ECD, ECDG, ETEG, ECDGTE and so on.
Not gonna comment on SC because I don't know the game well.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I get pretty good in Tekken without being to all that wavedash and backdash stuff regularly.
DR2K
Banned
It's clunky, unresponsive, and less people are buying and playing it. Series needs a huge overhaul or it'll end up as relevant at VF. A niche arcade game that continues to sell worse by the iteration to the mass market.
Bull shit son.
AzureSkies
Member
Really looking forward to this, but I'm worried that the game won't be up to Tekken standards.
Well, if it isn't I'll just purchase TTT2. I've played every main game in the series but TTT2, so I need to eventually buy it anyway.
Well, if it isn't I'll just purchase TTT2. I've played every main game in the series but TTT2, so I need to eventually buy it anyway.
NO.
DR2K
Banned
Movement is terrible, combos are so situational. You're fighting the mechanics more than the opponent.
Movement is amazing when you know what you are doing. When you are bad at the game then yea movement is "terrible".
Combos aren't that sitiational either. You don't have a "confirm any button into this 1 BnB" like Marvel but there are BnBs you can rely on for a lot of situations.
These issues are hardly even a concern... people have bought Tekken with these movement and combo options since Tekken 3. It's not like wave dashing was something purposely added to the series later on.
All the things you are listing is what makes Tekken great. Movement is not terrible. Proper spacing is crucial and important for a great defense. And the type of control you get in 3D space with Tekken greatly adds to its depth.
Combos can be situational depending on the angle you launch at or depending on the distance from a wall but most often this isn't even the case. You are not going to alter your combos drastically. Situational combos can also be a plus because players have to re-strategize and re-orient themselves to fit the specific scenario. Most often, you can do your character's wall carry or an early bound move. Really not hard to learn and isn't an issue at all.
DR2K
Banned
Well yes, I'm speaking from the pov from a new player though. Movement is shit.
Combos have lots of different states and hit boxes, and backgrounds that heavily alter combos. Much more than any other fighter.
Movement was terrible in T4. And it was relatively slow in T6. But TTT2 has it improved two-fold. And it's like any fighter, it takes practice to get good at it. Just because moving the same distance is easier in Soul Calibur or VF doesn't mean I can move like Keev or Fuudo in them. It's all relative.
Situational combo's are a bad thing? I love variety. How are you going to make your combo when you are fighting someone off axis (works the same way in VF). How are you going to optimize your combo to utilize the wall X distance away? How are you going to optimize your combo to take away maximum red health? How are you going to optimize your combo to prevent or take away netsu from your opponent? What is the best combo against an opponent who's head is towards me instead of feet? Doing Combo's in Tekken is ridiculously fun.
A pessimist will be calling it fighting the mechanics because they can't brainlessly get an easy win. But others enjoy it.
Lol, when "speaking from the pov from a new player", strategy in chess barely exists.
tiggerkiddo
Member
It seems like he's almost trying to just rile people up...
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nah he's just bad at fighting games so stuff like that always get's brought up, he likes them a lot though.
CrazyTank940
Member
Agreed. Combat's at it's best imo and there's a lot of stuff in it as is. Fight Lab is a good tutorial mode, Combot customization is pretty fun, the ability to play 2v2/2v1/1v1 makes it one of the most, if not the most versatile games in the series, Tekken Tunes is nice if you feel the OST doesn't deliver and you think you can do better (it's a minor feature but man do I love it), all it's missing is a good story mode (I didn't mind the beat em up style of the previous games but I'd like something more traditional) and the return of Tekken Bowl.
Fight lab is not that good though. There is no Tekken game.. hell there has been no Namco OR Capcom game with a good tutorial yet.
In reality that is the core issue here. Sure you can learn the game by checking out TZ, AvoidthePuddle and look at YT videos but the game itself does not even provide a new player with enough information or training sessions to get decent at the game.
In reality that is the core issue here. Sure you can learn the game by checking out TZ, AvoidthePuddle and look at YT videos but the game itself does not even provide a new player with enough information or training sessions to get decent at the game.
IHaveCandy
Banned
It's not really niche. Over a million copies isn't niche. Plus it has dominated Asian arcades for years. Has it lost some mainstream appeal? Sure. But it's not VF-status. And as a fan of the series, I don't want them to overhaul for the sake of making mainstream audiences happy.
Fight Lab is OKAY but could have been much much better. I'm mostly happy about the training mode features in TTT2 that were lacking before. I tried training in T6 the other day and it was not fun.
And yeah, if Tekken Rev. has Tekken Ball and Tekken Bowl mode, I'd imagine it'll get a lot of downloads.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Yes. We really do need a beastly tutorial and I greatly hope Tekken 7 will provide that. They've done everything else right with TTT2. As far as story goes, though, I don't even think it should be a concern for TTT2. Tekken Tag is spinoff, non-canonical game. The fact that we got the longest character endings the series has seen along with fight lab story should be good enough. TTT1 didn't even have CG endings or voice acting. lol. The casual LOVED that game, though. Story isn't the primary concern here.
CrazyTank940
Member
Eh, I personally found Fight Lab to be good *reggie.jpg*
But yeah if by some miracle Tekken Bowl was in Revolution, I'd probably play the hell out of it.
Yeah, I know there's people that liked Fight Lab a lot. It's up to personal preference at the end but I know it could be improved a whole lot.
Agreed, otherwise, though.
I just think the stuff that makes Tekken good, could be accomplished in a much more intuitive fashion with better design. Certain things would really make Tekken more interesting, such as making throws start with the same animation so throw-breaking has to be a guess, and making movement cancels easier to bust. Intermediate-level Tekken to me is the most fun. I actually tried going to a few Tekken sessions of high-level folks back in the T6 days, but it was really frustrating due to all the movement cancels making the game look super-defensive to me.
It's also the fundamental difference between Tekken and VF- Tekken is more about spacing, VF is more about raw mixing up and conditioning (though conditioning does exist in Tekken) The threat of throwing is much stronger in VF which allows for more in-close mix-up, but at the cost of some of the positional game of Tekken. Oki is another difference- Oki is strong in Tekken, and more balanced in VF (though the 2d concept of meaty is very important in FS- especially for the character I use)
This is also why I think Tekken is much more popular, it's easier for 2d fighter folks to get Tekken's style of play, which is closer to traditional 2d fighters, than VF, which is much farther removed from the traditional model, and is more frustrating to learn/play.
Comparing the two is like comparing steak to cake. Both awesome, both very different.
Monocle
Member
Waaaaaaaat. I'm sorry dude, but you can't be very familiar with Tekken's spacing game if this is what you think. Watch some match videos with experienced players. Some of them move like Michael Jackson on ice. You'll see that even simple dash and sidestep cancels can be strung into a rapid cat-and-mouse dance. And that's without special movements like wavedashing and Xiaoyu's stance trickery.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Well to be honest it's still clunky the way all that stuff is done, it's just done at a fast pace. This will most likely never change and it really doesn't need to as it would alter the game a bit too much.
I really don't have an opinion on those sort of changes because I'm not sure if I would like them or not. One of the major changes I want is for the "red" effects from hits to be scaled down. The move animations are so amazing but all that red gets in the way. They had done a great job making it look great in Tekken 4 but then they switched back and I do not understand why.
They already tried with Tekken 4. We all know how that one turned out...
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Exactly my point haha
Edit: Here are some examples of clunky in the 2d space.
The SF games, Marvel vs series, MK.
Yes marvel is clunky, it looks fast and smooth and all that jazz, but the movement in the game is still clunky it's just at hyper speeds
2d games that are not clunky
King of Fighters, GG/BB/P4A
GodParticle
Member
I used to enjoy the series until it got too bloated for its own good(way too many matchups to know) and introduced that awful wall system
I think there's just way too many directional executions going on to get movement down. I really dug the approach that VF had when I tried out FS, but I'm very aware that they can't just copy and paste something like that because it would completely break the game for sway and crouch dash characters. The thing that always got me about the movement is that sidestepping feels way more loose than forward/backward movement. It's easy to think you're sidestepping in the "right" way when you really aren't.
Walls seem awful at first. I used to love infinite stages. But once you learn how to deal effective damage at walls, you start hating infinite stages. Walls have definitely added a lot to the series. Wall pressure is like one of the best things ever when you're the one doing it.
DR2K
Banned
Chess eventually makes sense, Tekken is still asking you to to scrape the skin off your thumb to move in a direction. As they add more movesets, characters, and gimmicks that don't really work they continue to alientate more players, continue to sell less, and cling to a dying arcade scene as their main source of revenue.
This F2P version is the perfect place to experiment on new system mechanics, but this rpg element shit is not one of them.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I think VF5 is a overall better game than TTT2 but I'd rather play tekken. I hate the almost non-existent oki in VF5.
I already hate the idea of guessing throw breaks because that's never been a strong point of mine so I'd rather react or predict the throw than have to guess.
Yeah Tekken is more about spacing thanks to its movement system, but mixups and conditioning aren't minor in any way. There is a lot more frame crunching in VF5 too where as in Tekken while its very useful, spacing is so strong you can play without knowing them for the most part which is very accessible (in some odd way.)
Yo honestly, the whole hard to play argument wasn't a thing until people started to become competitive thanks to online and a broader view of the competitive scene. While Tekken is hard to play, its only really been a RECENT problem.
I already hate the idea of guessing throw breaks because that's never been a strong point of mine so I'd rather react or predict the throw than have to guess.
Yeah Tekken is more about spacing thanks to its movement system, but mixups and conditioning aren't minor in any way. There is a lot more frame crunching in VF5 too where as in Tekken while its very useful, spacing is so strong you can play without knowing them for the most part which is very accessible (in some odd way.)
Yo honestly, the whole hard to play argument wasn't a thing until people started to become competitive thanks to online and a broader view of the competitive scene. While Tekken is hard to play, its only really been a RECENT problem.
Standards have risen- what made someone good in an arcade 10 years ago makes you a scrub today.
As for oki in VF, the trick to oki is to do an attack that is greater than the damage of the rising kick during the active frames (a "meaty") or to do a high or low crush, or in Aoi's case reversal, or in the case of some wakeup kicks (char/position dependent) evade. Once they realize they can't wake up quick, you can down attack. The oki game in VF gives more options/balance to the defender, but it still exists with the same depth as Tekken.
Frame crunching is equally useful in both games, and in really any gae.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I know how it works, I just prefer Tekken's.
And you can get away without knowing frames in Tekken more than in VF is what Im saying
And the whole arcade thing isn't really true. Hell those arcade players are the main ones placing today.
And you can get away without knowing frames in Tekken more than in VF is what Im saying
And the whole arcade thing isn't really true. Hell those arcade players are the main ones placing today.
The problem with Tekken isn't clunky movement or whatever; it's that it's more of the same. The game really has stayed the same since Tekken 3. I'm sure you all can give me the technical background on why that isn't the case, but it still remains that the average player doesn't notice or really care about technicalities. Tekken is going to become irrelevant unless they drastically change the gameplay. TTT2 selling disappointingly is a sign of that.
I sort of have to disagree. Believe it or not, the game was much harder to play in the tag era than it is now. The breadth of difference between a top player and a beginner in Tag 1 is even larger than what we see in TTT2. If people exemplified even half of the skill the arcade competitors of the early 2000's the level of play in NA would be significantly greater.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Would it change Tekken too much to give it DOA/SC-like unrestricted 3D-axis movement?
The plodding, anvil-footed movement makes the game feel so dated, like a PS1 game buried under a shiny veneer of per object motion blur and self shadowing. It kills me because the game easily has the most interesting roster and sleek presentation of any fighter out there.
The plodding, anvil-footed movement makes the game feel so dated, like a PS1 game buried under a shiny veneer of per object motion blur and self shadowing. It kills me because the game easily has the most interesting roster and sleek presentation of any fighter out there.
ShinobiFist
Banned
Yup. Oki is strong in VF as in Tekken. Just a different flow.