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[diaspora]

To play devil's advocate for a short while, the issue is one of personal identity. Even for second generation migrants, hell, especially for second generation migrants the concept of 'home' and their identity often lies between the two. Now the issue isn't that they are Muslims here. A second generation migrant from Iraq might have some very vocal views about the Iraq war and might be a target for radicalisation as a result. Some Muslims might similarly see violence against middle eastern states as an attack on their identity while the region itself might have very different views.

It's a pretty complex issue.

And like I said, they can have a variety of opinions on UK foreign policy but the idea that curtailing x or y foreign policy decision as a means to address young men committing mass murder is a little ludicrous to me. Doubly so when most of the people ISIS ultimately kills are other muslims.

 

[Auraela]

And the problem with this country is wheres the charity funding etc like Manchester for these attacks?

Why is one singled over anothrr

 

[Kinyou]

Why would a muslim from another country care about other muslims?

What are you even saying?

Wouldn't it be paradox to join isis if you're upset about muslims being bombed? After all are muslims in the middle east suffering the most under their terror.

 

[Skyzard]

I don't understand the denial some of you have that foreign policy is influencing these terror attacks. Just look at the timeline of intervention in the middle east and how the number of attacks rises.

Wouldn't it be paradox to join isis if you're upset about muslims being bombed? After all are muslims in the middle east suffering the most under their terror.

Yep, they're dumb as fuck.

I don't doubt that with all the terrible things happening in the middle east, people think the west is at war with islam and is probably why people from the west go to join them.

IS and its followers are not mentioning "famine caused by sanctions", don't mix everything up.

Like others said, they are constantly killing Muslims in various Muslim-dominated countries that aren't being bombed by the west. It's not "Bush bullshit", it's facts.

Do they hate the freedom of those other muslims they're killing?

It's another random excuse of "not muslim like us" to spread their control.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

developing story on the BBC

Friend reported suspected attacker to anti-terror hotline

If it's true, it really shows we need an investigation into how the existing system failed for the last two attacks. Show where we need to allocate more resources.

I think the talk I've seen here about detaining everyone listed as a threat (I saw someone earlier wanting Guantanamo for gods sake) is premature. We need to have the full story around the two recent attacks and then we can evaluate whether our current civil liberties are bringing too high a level of risk. We don't know how the attackers organised this or were radicalised, but May is already talking about regulating the internet.

I understand the anger, I understand the fear, I understand the frustration. But we really need for more information to come out and then be examined by experts before we can say 'This is what will stop this happening again'.

 

[Theonik]

And like I said, they can have a variety of opinions on UK foreign policy but the idea that curtailing x or y foreign policy decision as a means to address young men committing mass murder is a little ludicrous to me. Doubly so when most of the people ISIS ultimately kills are other muslims.

I never said any of this. It is a factor. Terrorism is combatted by a reconsideration of our foreign and domestic policies. It is a symptom of a wider problem and one we need to address.
We can simultaneously prosecute terror cells, stop kneejerk bombings for political posturing, AND try to tackle mental health issues. We don't have to choose.

 

[diaspora]

I never said any of this. It is a factor. Terrorism is combatted by a reconsideration of our foreign and domestic policies. It is a symptom of a wider problem and one we need to address.

What I'm saying is that when people are driving out and stabbing people knowing they'll die doing it, I don't think changes to foreign policy would make an appreciable difference if any. There's a larger social problem at play driving young men to suicidal attempts at mass murder.

 

[Theonik]

What I'm saying is that when people are driving out and stabbing people knowing they'll die doing it, I don't think changes to foreign policy would make an appreciable difference if any. There's a larger social problem at play driving young men to suicidal attempts at mass murder.

Oh sure but then surely you recognise that using terrorist attacks as a pretence to cause huge suffering on an innocent foreign populace when that is neither the cause of nor the solution of our problems is nothing more than a senseless act of vengeance and uncivilised bloodlust no?

 

[cloudburst]

I don't understand the denial some of you have that foreign policy is influencing these terror attacks. Just look at the timeline of intervention in the middle east and how the number of attacks rises.

When you put it it that way you make it seem like attacking the West is justified.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'm pretty sure most countries agree that terrorism is defined by an overarching goal to affect society in general, be it political, religious, ideological, etc., which is what the initial poster was talking about by comparing it to people shooting other random people for no other reason than wanting to kill.

I think that definition would be considered too broad and open to abuse.

From what I've read, there isn't a universally agreed definition of terrorism. That's all I'm saying. Unless it's changed recently, I thought even the UN couldn't agree on one.

 

[GoldenCrow]

It's absolutely cause for concern and I really think it will continue to be. Even if the numbers are currently low, they could rise up and the effect it has on the population who aren't used to daily atrocities is strong.

What's going to be done about it that will actually stop it though? Nothing all that significant under Theresa. The government can already spy on communications.

Jeremy Corbyn might have actually improved relations with other middle-eastern countries by not following in US's bloody footsteps. There would be little to no motivation to target the UK, especially as times goes on.

Foreign policy is never discussed, it's all "how do we stop muslims from being really muslim - I know, let's blame islam!"

It's short-sighted and simple minded.

Current foreign policy actually has very little to do with the actions of ISIS or those they influence as ISIS were the people that were "liberated" by the west during the Iraq war. With the older islamic military groups this was the case but ISIS are very different

They want to establish a caliphate and expand this across the whole of the middle east wiping out anybody that doesn't abide by their interpretation of the koran, if you aren't their kind of muslim then you aren't muslim. They are a doomsday cult at heart where they actively want a war with christians (the west in their mindset) as stated in the Koran to bring the end of the world. They see the war in Iraq as a joint war with muslims and christians as allies against a common enemy (ISIS were some of the people the west allied with in Iraq) which will then be an all out war against muslims and are trying to to do everything in their power to bring this about.

The people that are doing the attacks in countries around the world aren't ISIS proper nor organised by them either as they have their hands full, they are people that are enticed by their propaganda and targeted in the exact same way religious cults do, usually from the similar type of background and usually offer redemption for shady past via acts of violent.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I don't understand the denial some of you have that foreign policy is influencing these terror attacks. Just look at the timeline of intervention in the middle east and how the number of attacks rises.

I'm not denying that at all. I think foreign policy and the war on terror has been a failure and a great recruitment tool. But you're implying that this terrorism is all about foreign policy when that's actually just a piece of the puzzle.

edit: goldencrow explained it well

 

[Skyzard]

What I'm saying is that when people are driving out and stabbing people knowing they'll die doing it, I don't think changes to foreign policy would make an appreciable difference if any. There's a larger social problem at play driving young men to suicidal attempts at mass murder.

What would be the motivation be for terror attacks? What would they be angry about?

Your claims are very strange.

Foreign policy actually has very little to do with the actions of ISIS or those they influence. With the older islamic military groups this was the case but ISIS are very different.

They want to establish a caliphate and expand this across the whole of the middle east wiping out anybody that doesn't abide by their interpretation of the koran, if you aren't their kind of muslim then you aren't muslim. They are a doomsday cult at heart where they actively want a war with christians (the west in their mindset) as stated in the Koran to bring the end of the world. They see the war in Iraq as a joint war with muslims and christians as allies against a common enemy (ISIS were some of the people the west allied with in Iraq) which will then be an all out war against muslims and are trying to to do everything in their power to bring this about.

The people that are doing the attacks in countries around the world aren't ISIS proper nor organised by them either as they have their hands full, they are people that are enticed by their propaganda and targeted in the exact same way religious cults do usually from the similar type of background and usually offer redemption for shady past via acts of violent.

What would be the reason for people here being enticed by their propaganda?

I'm suspicious of ISIS as a group because of their actions. If they hate everyone that isn't muslim, Israel is right next door and they've done nothing. They attacked christians in Kurdistan after the Iraqi government told the US they can't have bases there. Then they spread to Syria to get rid of Assad :S. Their videos inspire outrage.

It's questionable how much they really have to do with Islam except in name, as a convenient means of recruitment in war-torn areas. Spreading their crazy laws seem like just a bonus to them but their motivation is power.

I'm not denying that at all. I think foreign policy and the war on terror has been a failure and a great recruitment tool. But you're implying that this terrorism is all about foreign policy when that's actually just a piece of the puzzle.

edit: goldencrow explained it well

It's a massive piece of the puzzle, the main piece, that gets no attention.

What I'm saying is that when people are driving out and stabbing people knowing they'll die doing it, I don't think changes to foreign policy would make an appreciable difference if any. There's a larger social problem at play driving young men to suicidal attempts at mass murder.

If they have no motivation, they don't need to create a religious justification.

Constantly ignoring the link between the state of the middle east to the rise of terror is only explained by a desire to blame islam.

When you put it it that way you make it seem like attacking the West is justified.

If that's how you feel, that's appalling.

 

[diaspora]

Oh sure but then surely you recognise that using terrorist attacks as a pretence to cause huge suffering on an innocent foreign populace when that is neither the cause of nor the solution of our problems is nothing more than a senseless act of vengeance and uncivilised bloodlust no?

Yes, using terrorism as a reason to engage in military activity is generally a waste of time, money, and most of all- human life.

 

[chromatic9]

OneLoveManchester singing we're strong, still singing our songs

 

[azyless]

I think that definition would be considered too broad and open to abuse.

From what I've read, there isn't a universally agreed definition of terrorism. That's all I'm saying. Unless it's changed recently, I thought even the UN couldn't agree on one.

I didn't say it was the whole definition. I said it was a part of it that most countries agreed with, unlike what another poster was saying.

 

[cloudburst]

What would be the motivation be for terror attacks? What would they be angry about?

Your claims are very strange.

Hahaha you know exactly why. Don't play dumb.

 

[Condom]

Wouldn't it be paradox to join isis if you're upset about muslims being bombed? After all are muslims in the middle east suffering the most under their terror.

It begins with being upset with that and ends with some recruiter explaining you that the only logical political action is to support the true Islamic state and wage war against traitors and all others who are the true perpetrators of the killing.

I think, at least for Europe, that de-politicization of the youth is an issue. Why would you listen to the recruiter if you're already doing direct action with your local party/group? When you already have a solid ideological fundament? Hope in the political system?
Becoming an adult is more than only being ready for the job market.

Then again, if that would be the case, in which ways does it show in non-muslim youth? Maybe I will research this someday given the opportunity.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'm not denying that at all. I think foreign policy and the war terror has been a failure and a great recruitment tool. But you're implying that this terrorism is all about foreign policy when that's actually just a piece of the puzzle.

edit: goldencrow explained it well

Sure, but it's hard to argue it isn't a significant one.

Maybe it's not so much about them retaliating directly against western intervention, as about western intervention creating environments where extremism can grow?

 

[Ether_Snake]

Do they hate the freedom of those other muslims they're killing?

Yes? Have you not paid attention? They are killing them to scare them into submission. Why are they fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? To spread their religious ideology in the region. They come from Europe, Asia, and elsewhere in the Middle East to go wage war in Afghanistan against the Taliban. If they don't submit, they are not Muslims to their eyes. Islam = Submission, if they consider you an infidel then they consider you love that "freedom". They see the Taliban as not "radical" enough on a religious level, they consider them infidels.

Watch this Frontline documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Ut1PIqlrI

They spend time with IS in Aghanistan, it's not politics or anything like that, it's about HEAVEN and GOD and HELL.

People seem to have trouble believing that someone can really believe that God is watching them and counting their deeds with an abacus to calculate how many rewards they will get in heaven, but they DO believe it.

I remember way back when I was a kid before 9/11, I was in some mIRC religion channel and there was a Muslim constantly trying to convince Christians to convert, and once he said how he used to listen to the radio when going back home from work, but realized that it was a way of straying from his attention to God, so instead he stopped listening to any music and would just repeat "Allah akhbar" repeatedly all the way.

That was before 9/11, this mindset has been more widely adopted since, and those nutcases actually believe all that crazy crap. Just like some people believe the Earth is flat, they think they must kill "infidels" to get loot in heaven.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

What would be the motivation be for terror attacks? What would they be angry about?

Your claims are very strange.

Why do you think the manchester attack targeted young women that were out enjoying themselves?

Sure, but it's hard to argue it isn't a significant one.

Maybe it's not so much about them retaliating directly against western intervention, as about western intervention creating environments where extremism can grow?

Yes completely agreed.

 

[MrS]

OneLoveManchester singing we're strong, still singing our songs

That's really good! Apparantly there's gonna be a cover of Don't Dream It's Over later. Pretty moving lyrics for the occasion. One Last Time will bring a few tears too I'd imagine. It's heartening to see people come together in this way.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I don't think there is actually any other means of dealing with these attacks while maintaining a free and liberal society. Draconian and authoritarian measures could but then in my eyes we'd have lost everything worth fighting for.

So you would rather be converted to Islam or be killed.

 

[Condom]

So you would rather be converted to Islam or be killed.

So you think ISIS will take over Europe, seriously?

 

[azyless]

So you would rather be converted to Islam or be killed.

You either have issues with reading comprehension or you seriously believe ISIS is going to conquer Europe.

 

[Auraela]

And it begins. Terror hotline was warned

From bbc

A friend of one of the suspected attackers says he had reported him to the anti-terror hotline, but no action was taken.

The man, who asked not to be named, told the BBC's Asian Network that the pair had spoken about previous attacks and he was shocked at what he had heard.

"We spoke about a particular attack that had happened and, like most radicals, he had a justification for anything, everything and anything," he said. "That day I realised that I need to contact the authorities."

But the friend claims the suspected attacker was not arrested and was allowed to keep his passport.

"I phoned the anti-terrorist hotline and spoke to the gentleman," he said. "I told him about our conversation and why I think he has been radicalised.

"I did my bit, but the authorities didn't do their bit."

 

[GoldenCrow]

What would be the reason for people here being enticed by their propaganda?

I'm suspicious of ISIS as a group because of their actions. If they hate everyone that isn't muslim, Israel is right next door and they've done nothing. They attacked christians in Kurdistan after the Iraqi government told the US they can't have bases there. Then they spread to Syria to get rid of Assad :S. Their videos inspire outrage.

It's questionable how much they really have to do with Islam except in name, as a convenient means of recruitment in war-torn areas. Spreading their crazy laws seem like just a bonus to them.

I can only go from undercover documentaries that were done by BBC, Channel 4 and Vice as well as published intelligence reports but going from those the angle is purpose and belonging. They often target people who are living in a country where they don't feel welcome and that are becoming interested in the religion they grew up with after ignoring it for the majority of their life. They have their own narrative and use social media in a similar way brands do. Promoting themselves as a lifestyle that is all about glory, doing gods work and that they wont just be rewarded in the next life but now as well. Unlike other militarised islamic groups they actively use women to help recruit members and do a lot of the ground work who often sell the idea of family and belonging.

The threat from the other groups still exist but unlike ISIS they were highly regimented with targets being planned from the top down. ISIS on the other hand basically say go fuck shit up and you will be rewarded.

Edit: The down and out poor are often the biggest targets from within Muslim countries as well as your standard batshit crazy religious nutter.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And it begins. Terror hotline was warned

From bbc

And this is why people want those on the watchlist locked up. Their own friends, family and communities are reporting them. They see them as being dangerous. Yet we can't do anything about it?

 

[Skyzard]

Why do you think the manchester attack targeted young women that were out enjoying themselves?

Because they hated the country and wanted everyone to be angry and suffer?

Why else? :S

He was Libyan iirc, we know what happened in Libya. Country turned to shit to get rid of another un-cooperative leader.

Yes? Have you not paid attention? They are killing them to scare them into submission. Why are they fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? To spread their religious ideology in the region. They come from Europe, Asia, and elsewhere in the Middle East to go wage war in Afghanistan against the Taliban. If they don't submit, they are not Muslims to their eyes. Islam = Submission, if they consider you an infidel then they consider you love that "freedom". They see the Taliban as not "radical" enough on a religious level, they consider them infidels.

Watch this Frontline documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Ut1PIqlrI

They spend time with IS in Aghanistan, it's not politics or anything like that, it's about HEAVEN and GOD and HELL.

People seem to have trouble believing that someone can really believe that God is watching them and counting their deeds with an abacus to calculate how many rewards they will get in heaven, but they DO believe it.

I remember way back when I was a kid before 9/11, I was in some mIRC religion channel and there was a Muslim constantly trying to convince Christians to convert, and once he said how he used to listen to the radio when going back home from work, but realized that it was a way of straying from his attention to God, so instead he stopped listening to any music and would just repeat "Allah akhbar" repeatedly all the way.

That was before 9/11, this mindset has been more widely adopted since, and those nutcases actually believe all that crazy crap. Just like some people believe the Earth is flat, they think they must kill "infidels" to get loot in heaven.

They are spreading their power and control. I'll check the documentary.

I'm sure some of them may be twisted nutjobs who are religious but implementing laws is not a driving factor for the spread of Isis- who would fund that? Religion is a tool.

 

[Liha]

So you think ISIS will take over Europe, seriously?

No, but it will destabilize our societies and people will elect politicians who support drastic measures.

 

[Auraela]

And this is why people want those on the watchlist locked up. Their own friends, family and communities are reporting them. They see them as being dangerous. Yet we can't do anything about it?

Yup why couldn't they take him in for questioning at the least ?

 

[ProfessorMoran]

So you think ISIS will take over Europe, seriously?

They don't need to, simply on birthrate/changing demographics and voting pattern alone western culture will get squeezed out in Europe, replaced by more traditional Islamic culture, this is the road you're heading down when your demographics is changing towards a critical mass where people no longer need to integrate and adopt western Democratic values.

 

[GoldenCrow]

Yup why couldn't they take him in for questioning at the least ?

They can do. I think they currently have a maximum of two weeks to keep them detained. But if you consider the cuts all public services have taken it massively effects the ability to monitor the 23 thousand low level suspects that the intelligence and police are currently aware of in the UK.

 

[Orbis]

Yup why couldn't they take him in for questioning at the least ?

It has to be resources. At this point the anti-terror hotline sounds like a bullet point on a Government list. Its existence is sufficient to them, but whether it is actually serving its purpose hasn't really been discussed or exposed. Whatever has gone wrong it needs investigating.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They can do. I think they currently have a maximum of two weeks to keep them detained. But if you consider the cuts all public services have taken it massively effects the ability to monitor the 23 thousand low level suspects that the intelligence and police are currently aware of in the UK.

It has to be resources. At this point the anti-terror hotline sounds like a bullet point on a Government list. Its existence is sufficient to them, but whether it is actually serving its purpose hasn't really been discussed or exposed. Whatever has gone wrong it needs investigating.

Police forces in Britain seem in bad need of more funding. And honestly, that seems to be the case around Europe as well if you sometimes read the outdated equipment, long shifts and lack of people they talk about in other countries.

 

[Chinner]

They don't need to, simply on birthrate/changing demographics and voting pattern alone western culture will get squeezed out in Europe, replaced by more traditional Islamic culture, this is the road you're heading down when your demographics is changing towards a critical mass where people no longer need to integrate and adopt western Democratic values.

Stop this shit please.

 

[hodgy100]

They don't need to, simply on birthrate/changing demographics and voting pattern alone western culture will get squeezed out in Europe, replaced by more traditional Islamic culture, this is the road you're heading down when your demographics is changing towards a critical mass where people no longer need to integrate and adopt western Democratic values.

You are insane

 

[Wrestlemania]

They don't need to, simply on birthrate/changing demographics and voting pattern alone western culture will get squeezed out in Europe, replaced by more traditional Islamic culture, this is the road you're heading down when your demographics is changing towards a critical mass where people no longer need to integrate and adopt western Democratic values.

You must have been rubbing your hands together when you heard about the attack. "Another event to help me peddle my poisonous worldview!"

 

[ProfessorMoran]

You are insane

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

 

[Syder]

They don't need to, simply on birthrate/changing demographics and voting pattern alone western culture will get squeezed out in Europe, replaced by more traditional Islamic culture, this is the road you're heading down when your demographics is changing towards a critical mass where people no longer need to integrate and adopt western Democratic values.

Maybe it's time to stop watching Alex Jones, mate.

 

[GoldenCrow]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

What no go sharia law zones in Europe?! Name one.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

Sooo....do you actually think places like Tower Hamlets are no go zones or is this 4th dimensional trolling?

 

[hodgy100]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

what no-go-zones?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

A
G L O B A L I S T
E
N
D
A

 

[chromatic9]

I believe a lot of these radicalized people can become deradicalized if they speak to influential people within the muslim community strongly opposed to the twisted koran teachings and undergo some kind of therapy and shown what ISIS really is. Adding them to a watch list or logging the call and waiting for them to commit a serious crime is just letting things fester. More policing and using other powers can be used for far gone people of a serious nature but more police can only react a bit quicker, they still have to wait for something to happen.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

And the problem with this country is wheres the charity funding etc like Manchester for these attacks?

Why is one singled over anothrr

Yes, too much empathy for children being blown up is definitely a problem.

 

[Auctopus]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

Well, it's not going to be by refusing to socialise/integrate with any group besides your own and make up your own world view like you've decided to do.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

What no go sharia law zones in Europe?! Name one.

Molenbeek in Brussels.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Explain to me how you're going to solve the problem of no-go-zones governed by sharia law in Europe, you think you're going to have a say in a few decades when you're no longer the voting majority?

The growth of extremist strains of Islam is a problem that needs to be fixed, but let's not be overly dramatic here.

The Muslim share of Europe's total population has been increasing steadily. In recent decades, the Muslim share of the population throughout Europe grew about 1 percentage point a decade, from 4% in 1990 to 6% in 2010. This pattern is expected to continue through 2030, when Muslims are projected to make up 8% of Europe's population.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/19/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

8% of people don't get to set the rules for the other 92%, and that is not even taking into account that most of that 8% would be moderate Muslims.

what no-go-zones?

There are issues with immigrant youth causing a ton of trouble in certain areas of Paris, Brussels, Malmo and probably others. This is a serious issue where police need to come with extra strength because otherwise they have the risk of the crowd turning against them. An issue also because of lack of funding and politicians not backing the police up when needed.

 

[RoyalFool]

You are insane

If you look at birth rates, it's not that crazy. Heck, just look at London classroom demographics. Little surprise it's governed by a Muslim mayor really. Numbers don't lie.