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Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
BossDarkseid
Member
Well, considering he mentioned integration into western society/sharing our values and all that - what does Sadiq Khan have to do with it? It's not like most societies aren't cultural melting pots and London is almost the biggest of them all being the crux of a once global empire.
Summer Haze
Banned
For fuck's sake.
GoldenCrow
Member
Thats not a no go zone its not even a majority muslim area. It is however as it seems a successful recruiting ground.
ClosingADoor
Member
This is mostly because immigrants - and thus their children - tend to move into the same neighborhoods of larger cities. 40% of England's Muslim population lives in London for example.
Also, a Muslim mayor is no problem. We have a Muslim mayor in Holland here for our second city (Rotterdam) and he is one of the most outspoken people against Muslim radicalization and the issue we see within the Muslim communities. People like that are a good role model for others if anything.
ProfessorMoran
Member
So you would like to socialize/integrate yourself into an Islamic religious world view of how infidels, women and non-heterosexuals should be treated? Please clarify for me what you're actually going to do when you're no longer the cultural/religious majority (I'm not talking about ethnicity here) in a European country/province/municipality.
Politics is driven by the majority, majority is driven by demographics, and demographics is driven by birthrate and migration. Culturally if you're the minority you have no choice but to adapt.
Because of years of Tory cuts to the police and security services, and the rest of our public services. All the reporting in the world is no use if you don't have the manpower to do anything about it.
Theresa May oversaw these cuts as Home Secretary and was warned repeatedly by the police that they would come back to bite us on the arse.
London is governed by a Muslim mayor because Sadiq Khan is a bloody good man and ran a principled campaign against exactly this sort of dogwhistle bullshit from his Tory opponent.
brokenbeans
Banned
What sticks in my throat is the quote I heard earlier about a list of 3,000 people on a watch list.
What the fuck are they watching for?
Congrats you made it on the list your move.
ClosingADoor
Member
How do you think Muslims will ever be a majority in Europe? That just goes against any possible demographic development. You don't go magically from 6% or so to 51%.
Theonik
Member
We all stop breeding or something.
Who said pretend it didn't happen? It's about not being a racist asshole just because of a few lunatics who happen to be exploiting the religion for their own selfish reasons.
It is quite obvious Europe largely has had its head in the sand. Intelligence agencies are badly funded, law enforcement and police is badly funded. MI5 and Scotland Yard in thr last attack were warned about the terrorist attack. Hotline tips and other citizens warn them. But they do not have the funding, political will to do anything. The 3000+ stated to be on a watchlist for terror are just ticking time bombs waiting to go off.
Also, yet again the perpetrator is a young 18-34 muslim male. Those saying it is not about religion, anyone can do it. Why is is a small subset of the population ie. 2% of UK entire population is muslim males committing these attacks? Why are black or caribbean or african brits not doing this? Do they face any less integration issues? Why are Sikh men not doing this? Almost exclusively, free of ethnicity, nationality, it has been a muslim male. I studied racial profiling, I know stereotyping and the dangers inherent when police or intelligence agencies 'believe' something about a certain group but the fact that you can say the next terror attack in the UK will be committed by a Muslim male between 18-34 and have it be backed up with a high certainty of truth is just crazy.
Those saying it has to with Britain and its role in the Middle East ignore the myriad of countries who have nothing to do with the Middle East and yet suffer the same. China, India, Philippines, Kenya, Nigeria etc. When Boko Haram slaughters Christians and young girls and boys in Nigeria it isn't because Nigerian jets bombed Iraq. Hardline and radical Islam needs to be checked. The belief that the rest of the world must submit. It is why ISIS has been so sucessful. They want you to bend the knee or they'll destroy you. It is why moderate Muslims are their first target. Defeat those who don't follow exclusive Sharia Law, those who aren't steadfast in your beliefs. When they Taliban came to power in Afghanistan, their first targets were universities and schools. Change the way a person thinks and things will never be the same.
As for a solution, I mean what is the solution? It isn't clear cut in a free society.
Also, yet again the perpetrator is a young 18-34 muslim male. Those saying it is not about religion, anyone can do it. Why is is a small subset of the population ie. 2% of UK entire population is muslim males committing these attacks? Why are black or caribbean or african brits not doing this? Do they face any less integration issues? Why are Sikh men not doing this? Almost exclusively, free of ethnicity, nationality, it has been a muslim male. I studied racial profiling, I know stereotyping and the dangers inherent when police or intelligence agencies 'believe' something about a certain group but the fact that you can say the next terror attack in the UK will be committed by a Muslim male between 18-34 and have it be backed up with a high certainty of truth is just crazy.
Those saying it has to with Britain and its role in the Middle East ignore the myriad of countries who have nothing to do with the Middle East and yet suffer the same. China, India, Philippines, Kenya, Nigeria etc. When Boko Haram slaughters Christians and young girls and boys in Nigeria it isn't because Nigerian jets bombed Iraq. Hardline and radical Islam needs to be checked. The belief that the rest of the world must submit. It is why ISIS has been so sucessful. They want you to bend the knee or they'll destroy you. It is why moderate Muslims are their first target. Defeat those who don't follow exclusive Sharia Law, those who aren't steadfast in your beliefs. When they Taliban came to power in Afghanistan, their first targets were universities and schools. Change the way a person thinks and things will never be the same.
As for a solution, I mean what is the solution? It isn't clear cut in a free society.
Only 5% of the British population identifies as Muslim.
Only 5.8% of mosque attending Muslims identify as being part of the ultra-conservative Salafi movement.
The second you start fearing all Muslims is when the terrorists achieve their goal, this is all about division. If you're the sort of person that goes 'LOL religion of peace' every time there's a terrorist attack you're part of the problem, not the solution. London is a melting pot and if people from Africa, Asia, South America can come to Britain and assimilate there's no reason why the Middle-Eastern demographic can't and many of them already do, the aim of our government should be to make it so everyone born here feels like they belong to British culture and can contribute to it.
Only 5.8% of mosque attending Muslims identify as being part of the ultra-conservative Salafi movement.
The second you start fearing all Muslims is when the terrorists achieve their goal, this is all about division. If you're the sort of person that goes 'LOL religion of peace' every time there's a terrorist attack you're part of the problem, not the solution. London is a melting pot and if people from Africa, Asia, South America can come to Britain and assimilate there's no reason why the Middle-Eastern demographic can't and many of them already do, the aim of our government should be to make it so everyone born here feels like they belong to British culture and can contribute to it.
Summer Haze
Banned
Where did the money from these cuts go? Into them and their cronies' pockets? Banker bonuses?
You do realize that the dude who reported him could just as easily ended up in a watchlist, right?
You ... know those aren't real, right?
If not, reconsider some of your life choices and seek help.
Yoda
Member
A tip on a phone-line will never be enough to deny someone's freedom. The suspect could have been questioned/investigated to no avail.
cpp_is_king
Member
So because 1 person deserved freedom, it's denied for 7 others (along with their lives)
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Watch lists are for people who could be potentially dangerous. Surely we can't arrest people yet to commit a crime?
ClosingADoor
Member
Not saying it is a simple thing, but you can understand the frustration, disbelief and feeling of helplessness when these people just get away with their hateful stuff until they actually kill someone. I don't have the answer also to all of this, but it is clear that some measures need to be taken to further minimize the possibilities of this happening.
Stop cutting the police resources would be a good start. You can thank May for that since she's overseen this for the last 7 years.
cpp_is_king
Member
Should at least be enough to get a warrant. A detailed search can then determine if more serious charges are warranted
ProfessorMoran
Member
I'm talking about decades here, there's no magic involved. Western societies have low birthrates, whether it's a matter of lifestyle or late marriages/childbirths, we rely on immigration to buffer against the declining birthrates and a byproduct of that is our demographics changing, I'm not talking about overnight, but even here in Toronto, 25 years ago you don't see a lot of Chinese people outside of Chinatown, but now you have major municipalities where the majority of people are from China/southeast Asia, the culture has changed dramatically, you'll run into plenty of people unable to speak fluent English and western sensibilities are starting to disappear. Richmond Hill in Toronto is becoming increasingly middle-eastern, a decade ago people might be appalled when a husband would insist to talk on behalf of his wife but these days you just kind of take that for granted. And that's just the way things are. We've taken the westernization and integration of non-Western immigrants for granted and it's sneaking up on us.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Nominally, nowhere, so as to reduce the national deficit, and eventually, the national debt. But while the rise in debt has slowed since the Tories took power, they've never gone quite pulled off a surplus. And since they've convinced a reasonable chunk of the country that national budgets should work like that of a regular family, people have supported their continued pursuit of austerity thinking we will be able to 'balance the books' in short order. For seven years now.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Cool, next time I'm up against a Muslim for a job promotion me and a few friends can just ring in a few anonymous tips about him banging on about jihad being great. Not going to be able to concentrate on the interview prep with the police breathing down your neck, mate!
You have to understand that being on a watchlist doesn't actually mean you're a terrorist. It doesn't even mean you hold extremist views. You might just be unlucky enough to have a friend you hang out sometimes that got radicalised and you didn't have any idea. Locking everyone in the watchlist would mean locking a bunch of innocent people too.
I like you very much.
Is there any evidence that is actually a problem, because this poll from last year shows that is not a problem at all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
GoldenCrow
Member
If Islam was actually the fastest growing religion in europe or even if it was a sizeable population I'd concur but it isn't. Non religion is the fastest growing religion (i.e. religion is decreasing rapidly in europe) and people who identify as atheist are some of the largest populations in europe which growth year on year and dwarf islamic populations just in growth alone never mind population size.
'Sneaking up on us'? You seem to be assuming immigrants and their cultures are inherently bad in some way.
Immigrants who can't or don't want to assimilate are a problem but you're just going to get laughed out of here if you're trying to make out 'Western culture is at risk' and 'Sharia Law is taking over'.
You do realise the very article you linked shows a large amount of British Muslims still condemn homosexuality and believe it should be illegal. It's good that they feel at home and want to be a part of the existing culture but homophobia is incompatible with a progressive, secular nation.
Assimilation is still an issue, in my opinion.
ClosingADoor
Member
I get how watchlists work, but that doesn't mean it isn't terrible to once again read about how someone was reported or known to police and still able to carry out such an attack.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Which then could alert a cell, or at the very least to aggravate someone who hasn't done anything against the law. Feels like an uncomfortable place to bust in on someone for what at that point would be ideological reasons.
But maybe you have to actually do something sinister to be put on a watch list, I'm not very sure how they formally work.
Now compare and contrast terror attacks, suspected terror attacks committed by the other 95% and with this 5% and ask why people wouldn't draw any conclusions.
Anyone who goes 'lol religion of peace' is a racist and idiot bigot who has no solutions but it is also just as infuriating as seeing '#notallmuslims' every time that yet again a muslim male aged 18-34 commits a terror attack. Yes London is a melting point. So why aren't black londoners, sikh londoners, chinese londoners, even eastern european londoners committing the terror attacks? In a free society you also should be able to question this.
No matter how watchlists work you have 2 out of 2 terrorist attacks now where there was an information reported to authorities and the whole mechanism failed to prevent it. There must be an inquiry into procedures and resources and make it better.
I never said the religion gets off scot-free. I've said before, this is not ISIS, this is the Salafi/Wahhabi movement in Islam that has existed since the 1700s. There needs to be a reformation of the ultra-conservative branches of Islam aided by the religion as a whole.
Sure, but the point is that you don't even need to be reported by someone else to end up in a watchlist. That's why the suggestion of locking up everyone that is on a watchlist is not only dumb and senseless, it's against the very principles of a free democratic country in itself.
No question about that. Doesn't mean that "locking up literally every person on a watchlist" is in any way reasonable.
chromatic9
Member
The murderers of Lee Rigby are British blacks of Nigerian decent. They converted to Islam in later life. Islam is spreading across African countries and you also have female suicide bombers.
I get what you're saying though.
You mean police are swamped with stuff like this and have been cut so much by the Tories they messed up.
Ravensmash
Member
What does Sadiq Khan have to do??
He's probably one of the most progressive politicians in the whole country and everyone still can't get over the fact he's Muslim.
Yeah assimilation is a huge issue and it seems like Britain is doing its part, but its still a 2 way street.
And yeah only 5.8% are self proclaimed Salafists, but seems like there is a march larger percentage that follow extremely conservative views of Islam.
Because we're at war with Radical Islamists and not Chinese nationalists?
We're people asking "why is it always an Irish person' during the IRA bombings?
Half of Africa was already Muslim for a long time though (Islam has a large presence in North Africa, the Horn, the Swahili Coast and much of West Africa). It'd be more accurate to say Radical Islam is spreading across Africa especially in North Africa. It's important to make the distinction.
Wrestlemania
Banned
He's just regurgitating his Britain First talking points.
in the same way that a very small percentage of people commit violent crimes, there is a much larger percentage that follow extremely conservative views full stop.
we can't lock people up and put them on watch lists just because they have conservative views.
Our police should have guns, it's ridiculous they have to face these threats so under equipped.
i disagree here mate, not all police should be armed. but we need more police full stop armed and unarmed.
In London they should be, particularly when there is a threat.
There should be around key areas sure.