FunkMiller
Gold Member
If at any point it becomes apparent in the show that the Jedi learn of Darth Teeth, then it’s canon breaking stupidity. If they don’t, it’s fine.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Acolyte premieres June 4th on Disney+
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Unknown Soldier
Member
I don't think Disney gives a shit about 'canon' they arbitrarily retconned the entire EU out of existence after all
Alex11
Member
Come on, do we really need to be doing such mental gymnastics and not believe that the Jedi Order doesn't keep tabs on each of their missions, really?
Do we need to have it spelled like we're morons and with a Jedi dictionary on what a Sith is? Jesus.
So, they have the Force, light speed travel, all that tech, but once on a mission, nope, fuck all communications.
I'm taking these shows as self contained stories inspired by the movies, and as long as we have spectacle on screen, like this episode, and decent acting, I'm ok with it.
This is what happens when you keep inserting stories between movies, and then on and on, eventually you're gonna have a big pile of convoluted and illogical events.
Do we need to have it spelled like we're morons and with a Jedi dictionary on what a Sith is? Jesus.
So, they have the Force, light speed travel, all that tech, but once on a mission, nope, fuck all communications.
I'm taking these shows as self contained stories inspired by the movies, and as long as we have spectacle on screen, like this episode, and decent acting, I'm ok with it.
This is what happens when you keep inserting stories between movies, and then on and on, eventually you're gonna have a big pile of convoluted and illogical events.
Last edited:
Newuserdontflame
Neo Member
Yeah I have no idea. I won’t be watching it
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
It's been established that they don't know anything about the proto-Kylo Ren. They saw a hologram of the dead twin sister of Sol's former apprentice throwing knives at Carrie Anne Moss. They don't know anything about the dark side user who they use Kylo Ren's theme for and looks like a non-BBQed version of Ren.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
IMO they should have let Jecki live. But, I am guessing that Qimir was wronged by the Jedi as a child and no longer views them as persons - for lack of a better word / term. I am trying to stay away from spoilers, but I have a feeling he
Killed those witches too
Last edited:
InterMusketeer
Member
Regardless, it diminishes the Jedi by (once again) painting them as incompetent (All of this questionable stuff goes on beneath their noses and the Jedi don't notice a thing) and reduces the impact of the resurfacing of the Sith/dark side in Episode I.
That's the thing. The details don't matter. You can write it in such a way that it technically fits with the canon, but all it does is make the universe seem smaller, restricts the scope of what these stories can be about, and all of the characters involved look like a bunch of doofuses.
It's funny to me that so many people want to dive into the failings of the Jedi, and want things to be subverted, meanwhile they're still creaming their pants when a lightsaber is swung around. The important things like the lessons, the morals, the heart of Star Wars is easily replaced but the spectacle needs to remain. At least, that's how I see it, and for me, it's the opposite.
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
George Lucas did that. The whole point of the Prequels that the Jedi had their heads so far up their ass and were so concerned with politics that they didn't see the Sith Lord running everything until it killed them all.
InterMusketeer
Member
Yes. And then if you do it again in a prequel it diminishes them even more. Do you see how that works?
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
This is 100 years before TPM. The High Republic was a time when the Jedi weren't like what they were in the Prequels, but this is at the tail end of that era and their decline has to start somewhere.. Hell, the first scene on Coruscant in the show is Vernestra trying to cover up a murder just because it makes the optics look bad to the politicians.
InterMusketeer
Member
I mean, Mundi is right there. Yoda must've been like 750 years old at this point? There's probably many other Jedi who would remember this period of time due to their age. I'm guessing they just didn't notice what happened, or maybe they just forgot? Some crazy dark side dude killing a dozen Jedi is nothing special of course. Oh, or maybe the council covered it all up because it made the Jedi look bad! But why would that affect people who were directly involved a hundred years later?
No matter how you spin it, it just makes everyone involved look stupid when they're fooled in the same way twice.
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
No he wasn’t. He was in one scene that was long before they ran into the dark side user and had zero connection to it. But of course people here believe bullshit and anyone who dares try to correct bullshit get called a shill. Fuck it.
InterMusketeer
Member
He's literally there when they're discussing the assassination of Jedi and the possibility of Sith involvement my dude. Even if he personally never finds out the truth, he's gotta have an inkling that something funny is going on there.
Decades later Qui-Gonn is gonna show up and say "Hey, I just fought something, I don't know what but they were trained in the Jedi arts" and Mundi's just gonna go: "I dunno man! Never heard of such a thing! the Sith have been dead for thousands of years sooooo..!" Come on man...
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
He won’t ever admit to being wrong. He will make excuses or duck out of the thread by ghosting it.
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
No they don’t. They never talk about the Sith at all in that scene. They’re watching a hologram of Mae jumping around and throwing daggers and they think a Jedi trained her and want to keep a Jedi training an assassin secret from the Senate. They don’t talk about Sith at all.
I literally just watched the scene again.
Last edited:
InterMusketeer
Member
"Could this be a splinter order... or something worse?" obviously alludes to the involvement of the dark side, with the Sith being an obvious possibility. Then the green lady brings up her being trained by a Jedi. Which doesn't really change anything. Maul was also described as "trained in the Jedi arts."
But ultimately it doesn't even matter if the Sith were mentioned or not. When Qui-Gonn shows up after fighting Maul in TPM, Mundi would've been like "Oh yeah I remember like 100 years ago there was a highly odd case of Jedi assassinations, involving a pupil and an unknown master. I was somewhat involved with that, though we never learned the truth. Could this attack have something to do with that?" But he doesn't. He also doesn't bring up the possibility of dark/rogue Jedis or space witches or whatever the fuck else is out there. He just says the Sith have been dead for a thousand years. Gee, I wonder why?
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
You’re inserting the Sith there. It’s never mentioned.
InterMusketeer
Member
Read again.
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
I don’t need to read again. I just turned on that episode. They never mention the Sith.
Jedi Survivor established that there were rogue Jedi in the High Republic era who weren’t Sith. The main villain in the game is one they caught and froze for hundreds of years.
BouncyFrag
Member
Qui-gon luv in’ it!
Last edited:
InterMusketeer
Member
I never claimed that to be the case. You're either responding to arguments no one ever made, or you're not reading properly.
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
You said they were discussing the possibly of Sith involvement. They weren’t.
Last edited:
InterMusketeer
Member
They were. They just never uttered the word "Sith." Everyone understands that's what they meant when they suggested it could be "something worse."
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
They obviously don’t since they’re inserting something that isn’t there.
InterMusketeer
Member
Then what did she mean with "something worse" that shocked the other members present for that scene? It can't be rogue jedi because as you explained those already existed before, and would be considered a splinter order. So what is worse than that?
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
The Jedi were just done fighting a war against the Nihil. Basically Star Wars Vikings who were against he Jedi and Republic and wanted to live without their rules and would have every reason to assassinate Jedi. Ironically that’s what the proto-Kylo said to Sol in the last episode.
InterMusketeer
Member
Would encountering a Nihil apprentice illicit this kind of reaction? I doubt it. They already fought a war against them. You're either wrong or the writing for this show is terrible.
BlackTron
Gold Member
When Qui-Gon said that his assailant was trained in the Jedi Arts, why did Mundi immediately invoke the Sith? Qui-Gon was in no way specific about it being a Sith, yet Mundi made this assumption. It simply appeared that if you were talking about a highly competent Force user with a red lightsaber ambushing you, the first reaction is BUT WAIT I THOUGHT THOSE GUYS WERE GONE??? Mundi didn't seem to too caught up on it maybe being one of those *other* possible explanations he became familiar with 100 years ago. So even if it's not Sith, it still doesn't make sense.
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Don't try to argue with him. For real. He will ALWAYS find an excuse and when he doesn't, he just stop responding. Until he can quote someone else who criticize the series, then the cycle repeats. It's obvious that in the scene you are talking, they alude to the Sith and not some other stuff that took place in another media unknow from the GA.
This series should be called The Plot Hole and not The Acolyte. Like, where the fuck where Sol and Dafne Keen (can't remember her name) at the beginning of episode 5? Somehow they both were just there at the end of episode 4 and suddenly they are missing in action for the first 5 minutes. Or why Mae, who agreed to surrender to the Jedi, suddenly change her mind (again)? Why is he asking Mae to kill the Wookie and then... kill him himself? What was the plan here? And I won't even talk about the scene when Sol is about to kill Qimir and Osha is like "Nooooo don't do that it's not the way blablabla". Bitch, he just killed 10 Jedis, Sol can easily assume he is a Sith (that's what the guy just told him), Qimir won't change his mind and will kill more Jedi as soon as he can but nooooo, let's end this episode with a fucking lamp in his panties so those flying things can eat him alive lmao.
And I'm sure
ManaByte
will come up with excuses, but there is like 50 more stupid things in this series. Those are just what's coming to my mind right now.
Toons
Member
Its amazing folks who didn't even bother to fact check themselves are defending the BS they've been fed as if its gospel.
Like.. even the website description for this chatactwr doesn't explicitly say hes a sith. He says to sol "i guess... you jedi would call me... sith"
The sith is a religion and creed, you dotn become one just by having a red lightsaber. He seems to he trying to become a sith practitioner, but isn't there yet. Also... no yellow eyes. I know dooku didn't have em either but I chalk that up to an inconsistency if anything.
Anyways, there's literally only 3 characters left who seen this guys face and its not certain at all they will make it out alive. So we'll see what happens.
Toons
Member
Well the real reason is because that movie too is poorly written and that line from mundi only makes the jedi look even worse as the movie shows us that not only is he wrong; but hes been wrong for a long time and palpy has been able to set up connections and back end deals before he even became chancellor without anyone catching notice.
Thing about phantom menace is that it introduces so many strange plot conveniences that you have to write around that it almost becomes expected to ignore some of that stuff. A lot of the stuff shown in that movie doesn't make a ton of sense and you kinda just have to go along with it. Same with most star wars(rotj openly retcons the first movie and somewhat the second in the series as well)
Last edited:
BlackTron
Gold Member
Embarrassing.
Toons
Member
15 years ago criticizing TPM was not only expected but encouraged. Its amazing to see things flip in real time, but such is the way of things.
Its not a terrible movie mind you. But saying it has bad dialogue is hardly sacrilegious.
EDIT: Apparently not even 15: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/how-was-it-to-watch-the-phantom-menace-in-the-cinemas.1127282/
Similar things elsewhere.
Last edited:
InterMusketeer
Member
My posts were written while referencing the scene in question. Ki-Adi Mundi is an active participant in the discussion about Mae and her unknown master. He is privy to any information shared there and presumably whatever else they find out about this case. This has implications for all future scenes and statements he makes. How is any of this BS?
If we're gonna argue such semantics, would Darth even be the correct title for Vader? He only turned because he was manipulated. He was never properly trained to be a Sith and he doesn't seem to care about the Sith religion at all. Why is he more of a Sith than someone actively trying to become one like you suggested? How about Dooku? He only cared about reducing the power of the senate. Wouldn't call him a Sith. I mean, it takes more than a red lightsaber to become one, right?
See how all of this nonsense just brings with it a bunch questions for no particular benefit?
Ultimately, if it walks, talks and looks like a Sith, for all intents and purposes it is one. Both to the audience and in-universe to the characters who encounter them. Even if they reveal that he's actually a hocus pocus from the planet Wazoo who just happens to resemble a Sith, the damage is already done.
Yes. The prequels were terribly written too. That doesn't excuse this show for its own terrible writing.
Uhh, yeah. That was the point of those movies. To show that the Jedi were deceived and how their order died out. And all this show does is beat that dead horse again. Actually the horse died like a week ago, and they were beating it back then too. Just so you know how dead and beaten it is. This does nothing for Star Wars.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
I certainly do, as someone who's never really been into this franchise much beyond the original movies.
The major issue around this show seems to stem from the fact it's yet another prequel, and a slap-dash one at that by most accounts. If you're going to do a prequel, you kinda have to make sure you're not altering things from the better known and more popular parts of the franchise.
The respect to Star Wars in this show has been zero but god damn ep 5 had some face melting quality action in it. Better than any of the sequel movies and the bad guy is definitely a step in the right direction for Disney who tends to make terrible villains. Gives me hope someone at Disney can actually make quality content. Bc ep 5 is where Star Wars actually belongs.
Alex11
Member
Well, I do too, I've only watched live action, so I couldn't care less how many names the dark force users have, or what obscure race did something that's never mentioned in the movies or shows.
Exactly, I have been saying for ages, why not go way into hundreds of years ahead and detach yourself from these characters, do something original.
BlackTron
Gold Member
You guys are insane. I never said TPM was not an extremely flawed film. But it's obviously canon.
Leia being Lukes sister was not planned and a cop-out to tie up the love triangle by the end of ROTJ. It was obviously poor writing given they had kissed in both prior films. Now that I have found a flaw in ROTJ, is it suddenly okay to disregard it? I can't make a new story where Leia isn't Luke's sister because "I didn't like it". That's canon. If you write another story, you need to deal with it.
Making the case that it's too hard to write a story 100 years prior while respecting established canon in TPM because it had bad dialog and "was asking for it" just makes you seem too inept and ridiculous to even bother having a discussion. You'll just pull embarrassing excuses out of your ass until end times.
edit: While pouring my coffee these solutions just came to me, and I didn't even drink it yet:
a) the show is set 1000 years ago, not 100
b) Mundi is not in the scene
c) watch the Star Wars movies before writing a new story
Nah, actually TPM just made it too hard to write stories around it. lmfao
Last edited:
ManaByte
Rage Bait Youtuber
That's not why they made Leia the sister. Luke's sister was originally Nellith in the 1st draft of Empire (when Vader wasn't the father and Luke meets Anakin's ghost on Dagobah). Nellith was always going to remain the sister and George's outlines he had when Kurtz left had Nellith being introduced in Episode VII.
By the time ROTJ came around two things were happening: The merchandise was running Lucasfilm and George's decisions, and George was going through his divorce and couldn't be bothered to continue the movies (that's why Boba Fett went into the pit. George was so annoyed over his divorce he didn't want to come up with a plot for him in the movie). So instead of ROTJ ending in a continuation to Episode VII, he wrapped it all up with a happy ending.
There was no love triangle. In the version of ROTJ that would've continued to Episode VII, Han died in a raid on an Imperial base, Leia becomes queen at the end, and Luke goes off by himself in solitude where he would've met Nellith in the next movie.
BlackTron
Gold Member
The only thing you need to know this is to watch ROTJ. Obviously Leia is Luke's sister so she could stay with Han, without dissing Luke.
Not sure how all the scrapped plans are relevant, unless our veracity is measured by how much arcane lore we know.
Yeah, as much as I like hearing about the original ideas, rough drafts, and cut scenes, ultimately the "canon" is what made it to the screen, regardless of the intent or reasons behind it. It makes the OT fairly well contained and internally consistent but it would have been very difficult to actually address the "lore" given in ANH with the outcome in ROTJ, and what we did get was a pretty sloppy job of it with the PT. But quadrupling down on "the Jedi are complacent and corrupt" for a CENTURY leading up to TPM rings hollow. The Acolyte would have been better served (judging from audience response) with having Jedi (or preferably a Republic team with a single Jedi 'advisor') dealing with a totally alien threat without any taint of the Sith, Night sisters, or any of that crap. Having a remote world that uses the Force in a novel way isn't canon breaking if done correctly, but this constant pressure to keep reiterating on "the Force" within the Dark/Light side binary dichotomy (and I'm VERY surprised we have not seen a "I'm force fluid" joke (but actually serious) in there somewhere.
The real problem for Star Wars, IMHO, in a story telling sense is that the ENTIRE KNOWN SPACE is kinda run by the Republic/Empire. Sure, there are outer rim planets and stuff, but it's not like Star Trek where there are competing empires with their own structures and rules to allow for proper contrasting narratives. It's almost always an internal struggle because there simply isn't any external threat. Then throw in the generalized contempt for government these days, be it TDS or "less is more" types and the poor Republic and the Jedi will NEVER get their day "in the sun" to show what they were SUPPOSED to be. You just can't have a benign, benevolent, utopia anymore without the stain of dictatorship, fascism, or colonialist oppression sneaking its way in there somewhere and eventually dominating the plot. So instead of having a strong Republic, with their morally upstanding Jedi Knight defenders showing that truth, justice, and the "american way" is the RIGHT way to live, we always get this "rot from within" stuff that, quite frankly, has worn thin long ago and is now just sabotaging almost everything.
Toons
Member
I mean this show hasn't actually changed anything yet. I dont think they should aim for that no. Would it be the end of the world for me? Also no.
Its not my preference, mind you. I just don't think that tying any and all future installments intended to take place prior to phantom menace, to a single line said by a single minor character is a great way of doing things, priorities wise.
BlackTron
Gold Member
You're completely ridiculous. I'm out of this thread.
Toons
Member
...dude you dont have to agree with me on this. Plenty dont. It's not that deep.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
If you don't like it, you don't like it.
If you like it, you like it.
Some will not like it (and they've voiced that all over the net) because there are black and brown people being the majority of these particular characters (there was actually a huge backlash when Lando came on board, contrary to popular belief... Even though most love him now).
Some will not like it because the acting is wooden (it's on brand for me for Star Wars)
Some will not like it because it features women and/or queer women (seen this all over the net too)
Some will not like it for reasons they can't articulate
And some will not like it because of lore reasons
People dislike things for a ton of reasons that have nothing to do with story or acting or lore ... Or because of story, acting or lore.
I will always love Star Wars so I'll always give these shows and movies a chance. I hated The Last Jedi because of how they did Finn, Poe and Kylo ... Rey was ok-ish but they did a HUGE disservice to those 3. Thanks RJ
Rise of Skywalker was... Meh. Not bad but meh. Hated the pairing of Rey with Ren. Hated Lando not finding out that curly hair girl is his daughter. Hated Finn not using the Force. Hated them forcing Carrie in there and killing her character on screen. Loved Force Ghost Yoda and how powerful he became inside the Living Force.
Obi Wan was a snoozefest until the last episode. Well, the first two were good but after that it was snoozefest central.
I really liked Ahsoka! Kinda confused about Sabine but I liked it overall.
Acolyte has my attention (using my sister's login to watch). I like it thus far. Not much to complain about except for how the forest looked AND the obviousness of who Smilo Ren was. Fight scenes have been GREAT!
This is just my opinion... I'm a fan and I love this stuff! Still wish there was an actual PLAN for the ST. RJ did a Heard on it.
If you like it, you like it.
Some will not like it (and they've voiced that all over the net) because there are black and brown people being the majority of these particular characters (there was actually a huge backlash when Lando came on board, contrary to popular belief... Even though most love him now).
Some will not like it because the acting is wooden (it's on brand for me for Star Wars)
Some will not like it because it features women and/or queer women (seen this all over the net too)
Some will not like it for reasons they can't articulate
And some will not like it because of lore reasons
People dislike things for a ton of reasons that have nothing to do with story or acting or lore ... Or because of story, acting or lore.
I will always love Star Wars so I'll always give these shows and movies a chance. I hated The Last Jedi because of how they did Finn, Poe and Kylo ... Rey was ok-ish but they did a HUGE disservice to those 3. Thanks RJ
Rise of Skywalker was... Meh. Not bad but meh. Hated the pairing of Rey with Ren. Hated Lando not finding out that curly hair girl is his daughter. Hated Finn not using the Force. Hated them forcing Carrie in there and killing her character on screen. Loved Force Ghost Yoda and how powerful he became inside the Living Force.
Obi Wan was a snoozefest until the last episode. Well, the first two were good but after that it was snoozefest central.
I really liked Ahsoka! Kinda confused about Sabine but I liked it overall.
Acolyte has my attention (using my sister's login to watch). I like it thus far. Not much to complain about except for how the forest looked AND the obviousness of who Smilo Ren was. Fight scenes have been GREAT!
This is just my opinion... I'm a fan and I love this stuff! Still wish there was an actual PLAN for the ST. RJ did a Heard on it.
BlackTron
Gold Member
I get it, I want the story to make sense and you don't mind. Agree to disagree.
But trying to make it seem like they had no choice but to make it nonsensical as an excuse is just sad. I severely disagree with this. If you find value in this show, I think you should despite the obvious screw-ups, not try to cover them up like a defense squad. Canon has been broken -this is simply empirical. So now the conversation has shifted to whether it's a very big deal to break canon bc reasons and opinions. It can hardly get any lower than this and it insults the intelligence of anyone hearing it.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
I am at the point where I think it's bad overall. But it's also Star Wars, so the bar is low. This shit ain't Shakespeare after all.
But I also get it that fans of the old movies and such have their grievances, The OT was really good after all.
We're in a weird era of Star Wars.
Similar threads
- Poll