JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Huh?
If a upgraded Xbox happens next year, Gears 4 wont be the flagship... Nobody wants to wait a year to see how the game really can look on a console lol
And Gears 4 most likely is already scheduled for PC.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Thurrott: MS to announce a new standard Xbox controller and maybe Xbox Elite at E3
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
- Status
Huh?
If a upgraded Xbox happens next year, Gears 4 wont be the flagship... Nobody wants to wait a year to see how the game really can look on a console lol
And Gears 4 most likely is already scheduled for PC.
You're right I'm assuming it's not a massive leap, while the graphics cards might be far more powerful how expensive are they going to be? consoles have a price limit of $399 if you want to be successful, you can't just stick a $600 GPU into a console.
The xbox console has a price limit. The surface Pro with i5 and 8gb of ram is $1200. That's 4x over what a console price can realistically be. You really can't compare what they can put into a surface with effectively no price limit compared to what they can put into a console.
Am I excited to see what the surface team do? absolutely, but let's not expect miracles here. They do good work on Surface etc where they can stick whatever price tag they want on it. I'm remaining cautiously optimistic on what they can do in a maximum $400 box.
I already responded to if they do half steps, they will still be limited to the previous consoles hardware that way, going up against a new generation of PS where they have a few year hardware on XB2.5 to take full advantage of. That's a bad move.
Agree, will be exciting either way.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Next year? I don't think it's coming next year. I think it's coming this year.
Where do you think it will fall on the power scale? Coming this year, I can't see it being very different from the Neo.
tiredheadcrab
Member
If they do it this year, then they will still be in the same position with the PS4 in terms of power. I am not sure with the current chip they can out match PS4 so it might be best just to wait till Vega.
I've asked this earlier but what 'proof'?
As far as I've read (and I may very well have missed some nuggets), that's where things stand as of now:
- Thurrott mentioned an 'Xbox Elite'
- another MS insider referred to it as 'Xbox Elite v2'
- Tom Warren hinted at a slim revision
- FCC filings which can go either way
At the same time, to release a slim this year and a much more powerful console the year after sounds monumentally stupid to me. It's one thing to release a significantly upgraded console after just three years, it's another to release a significantly upgraded console a year after the latest revision. I don't think that'd go down well with customers at all.
If you sort this list by date, the first batch of BC titles were all published by Microsoft. The first third-party game added was Borderlands in September, about three months after the official BC announcement.
Borderlands was one of the first games they got up and running to a good standard, that game along with numerous others were being worked on long before E3 even happened.
Anyway, we should probably stop referring to it as "Slim" and perhaps refer to it as Xbox "Not as wide"
And Red Dead showing up by accident shows that is exactly what they're doing. However, pushing a feature out at the expense of some of your first party titles not being up to par and taking the time to really try to get the best performance they can on 3rd party titles seems like the route they went, which I have no problem with.
Also, with some games there may be licensing issues that are holding up more games from coming out on a regular cadence.
I still think they'll show a slim console this year and a new and improved one next year with the same design principles. Why can they do that? It is the phone/tablet model. That's what they are moving to. Do I think they'll do a revision every year? Probably not. But they can in this case. The slim model is probably the new "base" Xbox One. Next year they will show the "Xbox One Pro" or "Xbox Elite". People will be mad that they sold a new version of the Xbox a year later but people were gonna be mad anyways. Look at all the people bitching about the PS4Neo when it was leaked. People will always bitch because their new device is (in their mind) obsolete.
If you are looking forward to the next Xbox, I would wait for the Spring 2017 Microsoft Device event that lines up with "Redstone 2" update for Windows 10. I think at E3 you'll hear Phil elude to incremental upgrades to the xbox one system but he won't announce anything.
If you are looking forward to the next Xbox, I would wait for the Spring 2017 Microsoft Device event that lines up with "Redstone 2" update for Windows 10. I think at E3 you'll hear Phil elude to incremental upgrades to the xbox one system but he won't announce anything.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
But if the Xbox One base model is still the target platform, hoe early do Devs needs these new dev kits? I was under the impression (happy to obviously be corrected because I don't know) that part of the environment Microsoft has set up with UWP is that the architecture of the hardware shouldn't matter.
If Devs are still required to target the base model, why do they need the new box in their hands early? Especially for 2016/early 2017 games?
No clue. For me, it depends entirely on how much (if any) money Microsoft is willing to bleed. Phil has hinted that should an upgrade happen, it's going to be significant. The Surface engineering team is now handling all Microsoft hardware.
To me, that sounds like when the next Xbox happens it's going to be a beautiful monster. I'm only saying this year because I don't think they can afford to wait longer if they're trying to gain ground.
Sorry I wasn't clear. My "proof" comment was about Microsoft being a tighter ship post ntkrnl.
Yea I'd like to know too. Just how late can Microsoft ship these devkits if devs can just take some shortcuts for Holiday 2016 titles and just increase fps/resolution?
I still hope that there haven't been leaks yet because they don't want their E3 spoiled. If Sony started sending out devkits in April, what if Microsoft will start to send theirs in June just after E3? Is 2 months such a drastic difference when the SDK will be the same?
Shifty
Member
Bombshell: The Xbox Elite is the Elite controller. Every unit contains a supplementary CPU/GPU SoC (hence the price), and they're just now putting the finishing touches on the secret sauce that'll let it interface with the XBone and blow PS4K out of the water.
Source: My uncle who works at
Source: My uncle who works at
Phil Spencer.
Yea, they've been hyping up this UWP stuff, if it's as good as they say they shouldn't need to send devkits so early in advance.
The thing that doesn't make sense to me if it's not this year is Phil Spencer coming out and talking about it, like he was easing the way for people to accept it before the E3 announcement. I don't think he'd talk about it that early on if it wasn't going to be ready for another nearly 2 years. I mean, I'm sure he knew of Sony doing the same thing way before any of us.
IMO it's got to be this year or never (never as in this gen) before they do this upgrade stuff. Any later and a 1.5 upgrade is pointless I feel.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Like someone here said, it's just weird to release a new version of Xbox One this year and a year later yet again a new Xbox? It just seems farfetched, but they really do have to make a move. Worst case scenario MS sticks with the Xbox one for much longer, but I don't believe they would take that risk. Because if they make clear that they have no interest in a better Xbox, I will most definitely "jump ship". We all know though that MS is not going to do that.
MS would be insane to release a console without a disc drive. The industry is trending towards digital and will continue to do so however we've got a few more years to go and a diskdrive-less slim version would alienate so many potential consumers.
Not only that but retailers like GameStop, Wal Mart, Best Buy etc. would never allow it.
I see some sort of Xbox Elite Model at around $399 with bumped up specs comparable to the PS4K.
We'll also see a 1 TB Slim Xbox One for this fall with 1080p and the specs of a PS4 for $250-$300.
No way in hell MS, or Sony for that matter, go without a disc drive right now. A couple year down the line, sure, but not right now or the foreseeable future.
You raise good points.
Don't have much to say other than I'm hoping they are crazy enough to try it.
Sony shipping out dev kits now is not about ensuring that the PS4K works with already released or upcoming PS4 games, they just don't want to launch a new, more powerful console without the games taking advantage of its power.
How early devs need them I don't know, arguably the earlier the better. If MS intend to launch an upgraded console this year, they should have locked in specs for a while now and I see little reason to intentionally hold dev kits back, just to prevent leaks ahead of the official announcement, when you might as well be able to get developers on board now.
Additionally, if they haven't shipped out dev kits yet and plan to unveil an upgraded console at E3, then the question is: When will it be available?
- If it launches in June, then they either don't care about shinier games to go along with it or there simply is no hardware upgrade and hence no need to ship out dev kits prior to the unveiling
- If it launches late 2016/early 2017, they'd probably kill, or at least considerably slow down, XBO sales for the rest of the year until the upgraded console becomes available
With what Thurrott said and the FCC NDA expiring in June pointing towards an E3 reveal, a timely release in June appears more likely. So, who wants to buy a significantly upgraded Xbox for $399, in June, when no major game releases in the next couple of months that's able to take advantage of the additional power and when developers still haven't received dev kits to patch already released games? Obviously, Microsoft could be patching its games but is that enough of an incentive? Just seems like an odd time to launch an upgraded console.
In contrast, if PS4K launches day and date with PSVR at the end of the year, there'd be a number of new first-party releases on launch day as well as a plethora of high-profile third-party games being released around that time.
The FCC entries expire in September
Couldn't that be why MS is pushing dynamic resolution? The games automatically take advantage of the extra power by keeping resolution higher.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
But neither platform holder will be allowing upgrade exclusive games and Sony's games WILL require patches to be upgraded.
There's a chance Microsoft's won't need the patch which may explain the lack of a need for early dev kits.
Just speculating
Of the two parts ekim found:
06/25/2016 - https://fccid.io/C3K1683
07/29/2016 - https://fccid.io/C3K1682
Potentially but how many games actually utilize dynamic resolution? A handful or two? QB doesn't, for instance.
Given how tailor-made games usually are for consoles, to squeeze the last bit of performance out of them, I'd be very surprised if already released games wouldn't require patches to take advantage of higher resolution and framerate.
Besides, as I said, June (or July) are no-man's-lands in terms of new games releases. Would you've bought an XBO with 360 BC but no shiny XBO games at launch?
I don't think MS is pushing dynamic resolution but I do think that T10 is showcasing that it can be done (and probably should be done) for developing UWP games so it makes it easier to make a game for both PC and Xbox. Obviously that's just a guess but it makes sense. I mean, that's one of the main points of T10 making Forza Apex. I don't think we'll see a lot of games using that type of development until after next year's GDC and //build/ conference when developers have gotten time with UWP and finishing up their XDK games.
What could possibly happen (or I guess a dream) is that Microsoft could announce a "Alexa/Google Home" competitor that connects to your Xbox One wirelessly and has a 360 degree "Kinect" camera. It would do the same things as the other devices but can do things to help you in games with voice. The 360 Kinect camera is for the login stuff. Obviously that's a wild speculation (probably 100% not going to happen)...I guess i'll put it in the E3 thread.
What could possibly happen (or I guess a dream) is that Microsoft could announce a "Alexa/Google Home" competitor that connects to your Xbox One wirelessly and has a 360 degree "Kinect" camera. It would do the same things as the other devices but can do things to help you in games with voice. The 360 Kinect camera is for the login stuff. Obviously that's a wild speculation (probably 100% not going to happen)...I guess i'll put it in the E3 thread.
I'd be shocked if they don't come out with a device like this. Not just for gaming, but in general.
Drop the camera and I would be on board.
Alx
Member
Why would they need a separate device though ? The Xbox already has the sensor and the reserved resources to do that. If it can run Cortana, then it can run most advanced voice assistant stuff (it's all cloud-based anyway, right ?). Also with what they've shown with "bots" at build, it's obviously something they may want to push forward.
True. I still think they could use gaming to their advantage with having Cortana on the xbox one and you can talk to her through the speaker (which I think should be a 3D holographic box view, if you want to know what i'm talking about i'll link it later). It can be on its own or for gaming. The 360 Kinect camera for logging in or two factor confirmation for purchases or something idk.
I do doubt that it will happen at E3 though, probably at their device event next year.
If you have a Kinect, you can still use it...majority of people don't have a Kinect.
Sydle said:
Why? It can already hear everything you are doing...lol. I do understand though. Granted it could always come with something that covers the camera.
Alx
Member
But you're suggesting they'll try selling a new peripheral to do things similar to Alexia, while that peripheral already exists in Kinect.
Kinect doesn't have a speaker and it needs a Windows computer or an Xbox to be of use ot anyone...basically it's rebranding and enhancing Kinect as "Cortana". Even without the camera...they should be making a competitor to Alexa/Google Home, but if you are going to compete, do something the others didn't and can't (connect to Xbox, and have a Kinect camera)
TechJunk
Member
http://www.shacknews.com/article/94356/xbox-one-slim-production-leak-hints-at-e3-2016-launch
This article talks about an Xbox Slim, based on production documents from China, which is the same way lots of info about upcoming Apple products gets revealed.
The big question mark they bring up in the article is regarding the xbox's weight, about 2lbs compared to the 7lbs the current model weighs. They mention how it's a huge decrease in weight and suggest major improvements.
To me, that just seems like too much... so I got to thinking.
Do you think the 'Xbox Slim' is actually maybe more of an Apple Tv like device?
Small box to hook up to a second TV in your house, to stream netflix, hulu, etc... and also your games from your main xbox, almost exactly like the Steam Link...
That's my guess, if the info in the article is true. Thoughts?
This article talks about an Xbox Slim, based on production documents from China, which is the same way lots of info about upcoming Apple products gets revealed.
The big question mark they bring up in the article is regarding the xbox's weight, about 2lbs compared to the 7lbs the current model weighs. They mention how it's a huge decrease in weight and suggest major improvements.
To me, that just seems like too much... so I got to thinking.
Do you think the 'Xbox Slim' is actually maybe more of an Apple Tv like device?
Small box to hook up to a second TV in your house, to stream netflix, hulu, etc... and also your games from your main xbox, almost exactly like the Steam Link...
That's my guess, if the info in the article is true. Thoughts?
MS doesn't have a "TV" device, so yes, it is possible for them to do so.
That'll be a full on next gen jump in my opinion, all depends how powerful Vega will be.
The 2lbs are for the plastic parts only. They got this wrong. We had a thread about this.
TechJunk
Member
Ahh ok thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't aware
jeff_rigby
Banned
Could you go over the dates again.
Letters to the EU power boards have third tier energy use starting 2017 ( page 10) which we can now speculate means a node reduction. Sony has apparently decided to use Polaris 10 14nm FinFET designs using (GDDR5) in a PS4 APU and keep the 130 Watt TDP rather than reduce the TDP and make a cheaper more efficient Console. Is Microsoft doing the same with Vega (HBM) and are Vega designs ready.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Paul Thurrot has an article up on his site asking How Microsoft Can Fix the Xbox One in 2016
And theres more at the link https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/xbox-one/67330/microsoft-can-fix-xbox-one-2016
Nothing groundbreaking or too out of the blue but the fact he talks about a slim and a more powerful box has me wondering if MS might have more surprises in store for E3 than I'm anticipating?
And theres more at the link https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/xbox-one/67330/microsoft-can-fix-xbox-one-2016
Nothing groundbreaking or too out of the blue but the fact he talks about a slim and a more powerful box has me wondering if MS might have more surprises in store for E3 than I'm anticipating?
jeff_rigby
Banned
In this from linkedin via Semiaccurate Seronx:
1) It's not speculation that upgraded consoles from both Microsoft and Sony are coming in 2017. This is supported by Letters to the Eu power boards stating a Third tier supporting 70 watts for Navigation is coming in 2017. (page 10)
2) The following Linkedin post seems to indicate Backward compatibility for both revisions. That's highly speculative at this point.
The three modes could be PS3, PS4 and PS4 NEO. For sure the NEW XB1 should continue to support XBOX 360 so it has three modes that need to be tested.
In the thread I quoted Seronix, he corrected himself and states that both the XB1 II and PS4 Neo would be using a eExcavator processor which I'd guess means an embedded version, cut down version for APUs. Supporting this is that AMD would be using this in other APUs coming in the near future and have already created FinFET designs using this CPU. CAT cores would not be carried through to 14nm FinFET (speculation). If it helps think of eExcavator as a Jaguar core updated with Excavator features that AMD has decided to call Excavator for advertising reasons. For the same reason Sony is using AMD GPU FinFET blocks rather than shrinking the PS4 APU and having to redesign with FinFET can also apply to the CPU but would change to what AMD is carrying forward for their CPUs which the following slide supports Excavator.
Eurogamer has stated that the PS4 NEO is getting a CAT core but we know that at least the version in the current PS4 can't support BC. If we are to guess that the Linked in cite does mean PS3 BC is coming then whatever CPU core is being used has a higher IPC (more powerful) than Jaguar.
1) It's not speculation that upgraded consoles from both Microsoft and Sony are coming in 2017. This is supported by Letters to the Eu power boards stating a Third tier supporting 70 watts for Navigation is coming in 2017. (page 10)
2) The following Linkedin post seems to indicate Backward compatibility for both revisions. That's highly speculative at this point.
Which begs the question as to what three modes mean? Are both the PS4.5 and XB1 II to have backward compatibility with a continuation of XBOX 360 BC for the XB1 and new for the PS4.5, PS3 BC?
The three modes could be PS3, PS4 and PS4 NEO. For sure the NEW XB1 should continue to support XBOX 360 so it has three modes that need to be tested.
In the thread I quoted Seronix, he corrected himself and states that both the XB1 II and PS4 Neo would be using a eExcavator processor which I'd guess means an embedded version, cut down version for APUs. Supporting this is that AMD would be using this in other APUs coming in the near future and have already created FinFET designs using this CPU. CAT cores would not be carried through to 14nm FinFET (speculation). If it helps think of eExcavator as a Jaguar core updated with Excavator features that AMD has decided to call Excavator for advertising reasons. For the same reason Sony is using AMD GPU FinFET blocks rather than shrinking the PS4 APU and having to redesign with FinFET can also apply to the CPU but would change to what AMD is carrying forward for their CPUs which the following slide supports Excavator.
Eurogamer has stated that the PS4 NEO is getting a CAT core but we know that at least the version in the current PS4 can't support BC. If we are to guess that the Linked in cite does mean PS3 BC is coming then whatever CPU core is being used has a higher IPC (more powerful) than Jaguar.
BleedOrange
Banned
I certainly hope something from that list comes true. I love my Xbox for what it is, a Halo machine, but what I really want it to be is an extension of my PC.
Also, I couldn't agree more about his complaints about the UI/UX. It's an absolute travesty coming from a software company like MS. It's unattractive, slow, complicated, and slow. It needs to be fixed.
LordRaptor
Member
I mean, the problem with this line of thinking is that it has cause and effect the wrong way round; MS stopped producing 360s because almost nobody is buying them anymore.
"low end of the market" aren't buying dedicated games devices period.
BleedOrange
Banned
Need ekim or Shinobi to spill some more beans.
Nintendo will buy Microsoft.
And sell the Xbox division to Burger King.
CalamityPixel
Member
Sure, why not. Let it be a NXbox
BleedOrange
Banned
Now these are the joocy leeks I was waiting for!
...Scatter...
Banned
In this from linkedin via Semiaccurate Seronx:
1) It's not speculation that upgraded consoles from both Microsoft and Sony are coming in 2017. This is supported by Letters to the Eu power boards stating a Third tier supporting 70 watts for Navigation is coming in 2017. (page 10)
2) The following Linkedin post seems to indicate Backward compatibility for both revisions. That's highly speculative at this point.
Which begs the question as to what three modes mean? Are both the PS4.5 and XB1 II to have backward compatibility with a continuation of XBOX 360 BC for the XB1 and new for the PS4.5, PS3 BC?
The three modes could be PS3, PS4 and PS4 NEO. For sure the NEW XB1 should continue to support XBOX 360 so it has three modes that need to be tested.
In the thread I quoted Seronix, he corrected himself and states that both the XB1 II and PS4 Neo would be using a eExcavator processor which I'd guess means an embedded version, cut down version for APUs. Supporting this is that AMD would be using this in other APUs coming in the near future and have already created FinFET designs using this CPU. CAT cores would not be carried through to 14nm FinFET (speculation). If it helps think of eExcavator as a Jaguar core updated with Excavator features that AMD has decided to call Excavator for advertising reasons. For the same reason Sony is using AMD GPU FinFET blocks rather than shrinking the PS4 APU and having to redesign with FinFET can also apply to the CPU but would change to what AMD is carrying forward for their CPUs which the following slide supports Excavator.
Eurogamer has stated that the PS4 NEO is getting a CAT core but we know that at least the version in the current PS4 can't support BC. If we are to guess that the Linked in cite does mean PS3 BC is coming then whatever CPU core is being used has a higher IPC (more powerful) than Jaguar.
I just can't see "3 different operation mode" to mean what you think it means. I don't see Sony giving a rat's ass about PS3 backwards compatibility when they are pushing their streaming service. The NX could do that as the WiiU already has a 2 operation mode currently with Wii dash and WiiU dash. Adding a third NX dash for the new console.
It could also be referring to the Hypervisor of the XBOX One OS and how it works with games, apps, etc. in separate layers.
jeff_rigby
Banned
"binary back-compatibility with previous generation of game console which brings in 3 different operation mode "
It depends on what a previous generation of Game console means. Is the Launch PS4 a previous generation? In that case there is NEO and Launch mode, where is the third?
In this from linkedin via Semiaccurate Seronx:
1) It's not speculation that upgraded consoles from both Microsoft and Sony are coming in 2017. This is supported by Letters to the Eu power boards stating a Third tier supporting 70 watts for Navigation is coming in 2017. (page 10)
2) The following Linkedin post seems to indicate Backward compatibility for both revisions. That's highly speculative at this point.
Which begs the question as to what three modes mean? Are both the PS4.5 and XB1 II to have backward compatibility with a continuation of XBOX 360 BC for the XB1 and new for the PS4.5, PS3 BC?
The three modes could be PS3, PS4 and PS4 NEO. For sure the NEW XB1 should continue to support XBOX 360 so it has three modes that need to be tested.
In the thread I quoted Seronix, he corrected himself and states that both the XB1 II and PS4 Neo would be using a eExcavator processor which I'd guess means an embedded version, cut down version for APUs. Supporting this is that AMD would be using this in other APUs coming in the near future and have already created FinFET designs using this CPU. CAT cores would not be carried through to 14nm FinFET (speculation). If it helps think of eExcavator as a Jaguar core updated with Excavator features that AMD has decided to call Excavator for advertising reasons. For the same reason Sony is using AMD GPU FinFET blocks rather than shrinking the PS4 APU and having to redesign with FinFET can also apply to the CPU but would change to what AMD is carrying forward for their CPUs which the following slide supports Excavator.
Eurogamer has stated that the PS4 NEO is getting a CAT core but we know that at least the version in the current PS4 can't support BC. If we are to guess that the Linked in cite does mean PS3 BC is coming then whatever CPU core is being used has a higher IPC (more powerful) than Jaguar.
wait, what? the three different modes are described in the pdf and have *nothing* to do with bc.
- Active gaming
- Media playback
- Navigation
Nothing mentioned there could even remotely refer to bc. at all.
Also this document doesn't say anything about new consoles. Only new max power drains for consoles and I doubt they are topping the limits now which means they won't in 2017.
At least Xbox would become international then.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Two separate letters, One is to the EU power board on Power modes which also confirms new revisions, Tier three, with more efficient Navigation modes, 20 watts lower (NEO and a New XB1) and the other is a Linkedin post below:
Depends on what is a previous generation game console. If the launch PS4 is considered a previous generation it's no big deal, if it is talking about the PS3 then BC is coming.
- Status