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Tonight, the Senate votes on four gun control bills [update: everything failed]

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Scrooged

Totally wronger about Nintendo's business decisions.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Second Amendment was about using a militia to defend the state, AKA, the National Guard. The Second Amendment was not made to enable and facilitate constant mass shootings.

People who make this argument conveniently ignore the next part of the amendment as if it doesn't exist. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,...", which is a clause that clarifies the first part.

Militias at that time were made up of every able bodied man over 17 years old. Private gun ownership was very common and when they were called to the Militia they brought their own guns. The Second Amendment is not about having a government agency own all guns to only be used when a Militia is needed.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
People who make this argument conveniently ignore the next part of the amendment as if it doesn't exist. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,...", which is a clause that clarifies the first part.

Militias at that time were made up of every able bodied man over 17 years old. Private gun ownership was very common and when they were called to the Militia they brought their own guns. The Second Amendment is not about having a government agency own all guns to only be used when a Militia is needed.

the goal was to shift the military power of the nation from a standing army to militias run by the states.and other localities, and for the federal government to raise its non-naval forces from these militias, for two year intervals at a time.

The militia approach to national defense completely failed during the war of 1812 and was abandoned.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
the goal was to shift the military power of the nation from a standing army to militias run by the states.and other localities, and for the federal government to raise its non-naval forces from these militias, for two year intervals at a time.

The militia approach to national defense completely failed during the war of 1812 and was abandoned.

Shh.

The intent of the founding fathers only matters when it can be misinterpreted to match the current dogma.
 
The ad on mobile...on this page.

vGX9Glr.jpg

The perfect accessory to compliment your next mass shooting!
 
so you dont think anyone should be able to own a gun of any type, is that your position?
I don't see how that follows the 2nd amendment being stupid. The "rights" to own toasters and cars and iPhones and boomerangs and pots aren't enshrined in law. Miraculously, we still have these things.
 

Lead

Banned
Besides, most gun control advocates don't want all guns to vanish... but you already aren't legally allowed to own a rocket launcher, or a mortar, or a tank... Just because you have the "right" to a weapon doesn't mean you have the right to ALL weapons.
This is wrong. You can privately own field artillery, rocket launchers or even armed tanks.

A lot of this stuff is regulated by the NFA, but for the most part, everything you can think of can be gotten legally if you have enough $$$.

Even some forms of field artillery is not regulated at all.
Parrot cannons are often used for recreation because they're not even considered a firearm (they're muzzle loaded, black powder cannons).

And before you shit yourself at this information, in Europe* muzzle loaded cannons are not considered a firearm and isn't regulated either.

*Excluding the totalitarian regime at the isles.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Second Amendment was about using a militia to defend the state, AKA, the National Guard. The Second Amendment was not made to enable and facilitate constant mass shootings.
The supreme court of the united states disagree with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
This is wrong. You can privately own field artillery, rocket launchers or even armed tanks.

A lot of this stuff is regulated by the NFA, but for the most part, everything you can think of can be gotten legally if you have enough $$$.

Even some forms of field artillery is not regulated at all.
Parrot cannons are often used for recreation because they're not even considered a firearm (they're muzzle loaded, black powder cannons).

And before you shit yourself at this information, in Europe* muzzle loaded cannons are not considered a firearm and isn't regulated either.

*Excluding the totalitarian regime at the isles.

The supreme court of the united states disagree with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

So the Second Amendment WAS intended to facilitate frequent mass shootings? I have zero doubt that Republicans and their supporters believe in every man's right to shoot up a school, but I'd like to think that wasn't what the founders had in mind.
 

Lead

Banned
So the Second Amendment WAS intended to facilitate frequent mass shootings? I have zero doubt that Republicans and their supporters believe in every man's right to shoot up a school, but I'd like to think that wasn't what the founders had in mind.
It's a sad and tragic consequence of their intentions.

My point being that it has been established by SCOTUS that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" stands on its own, so people that keep talking about this militia crap can shove it up where the sun don't shine, because it doesn't matter.
 
But you're picking and choosing what parts of the second amendment to display, so that it looks less ambiguous than it is. Between 1875 and 2008, federal law explicitly took the position that the second amendment did not protect individual gun-bearing rights. When that position was overturned in 2008, it was a 5-4 result with the dissent hotly contesting the reinterpretation of the second amendment.

The big problem is that the second amendment is incredibly poorly written.

Nah man, the people serving in the government for those 70 years or so (pretty sure it was originally made a collective right in the 1920s or so not 1875) just didn't get it.

Despite living in a time when what is considered the modern firearm was being researched and developed at a frightening pace. There is no way they were doing what was best for the country by trying to make it a safer more civilized place. No fucking way.
 

Lead

Banned
A 5-4 decision with precedence that dates ALLLL the way back to...2008. How confident are you that a Supreme Court with 2-3 Justices nominated by Hillary Clinton will feel the same way?
Decisions don't just get changed from one day or the other depending on who's in charge. There has to be a foundational issue raised to get to scotus in the first place.
 
Decisions don't just get changed from one day or the other depending on who's in charge. There has to be a foundational issue raised to get to scotus in the first place.

I think the amount of mass shootings is a good foundation for that issue
 
A 5-4 decision with precedence that dates ALLLL the way back to...2008. How confident are you that a Supreme Court with 2-3 Justices nominated by Hillary Clinton will feel the same way?

Yep. The Supreme Court is not some pure, unbiased, completely righteous thing. It's as partisan as anything, and verdicts can shift wildly depending on who's got the majority. I mean, gay marriage was essentially decided by one guy, and if Kennedy lacked common decency and common sense, it would've been dead in the water.
 

Eidan

Member
Decisions don't just get changed from one day or the other depending on who's in charge. There has to be a foundational issue raised to get to scotus in the first place.
No shit. With the frequency that gun laws are created and challenged in this country, I think it's a safe bet that within the next 5 years the Court will reexamine the 2nd Amendment, which brings me back to my question: do you think that Court will agree with DC v. Heller?
 
It's a sad and tragic consequence of their intentions.

My point being that it has been established by SCOTUS that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" stands on its own, so people that keep talking about this militia crap can shove it up where the sun don't shine, because it doesn't matter.

Nope you can shove that obviously uneducated opinion about a heavily debated split decision where the sun don't shine.

You shouldn't treat it like some unanimous decision handed down by Baby Jesus himself. Five completely fallible human beings told four other fallible human beings that they thought everyone should get a fucking gun in they want it.

As far as I am concerned the only reason it exists is because the Justices in favor of it succeeded in removing the argument from all context and basically turning it into a argument over semantics/grammar.

This is in spite of the fact that the Second Amendment is the only Constitutional amendment that is considered to include a prefatory clause. Sure, it has always been a common grammar pattern but that only means something when you take it out of context from the document...

The second goddamn comma could have been a fleck of bird shit from one of their ridiculous powdered wigs as far as we know.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Has anyone ever made a credible argument that, based on the modern interpretation of the 2nd amendment, guns should be given out for free to any citizen who wants one, expressly because this emphasis on the latter half of the amendment so explicitly refers to product that needs to be obtained in order to fulfill the right?

Because, if that could be argued credibly, I'd wager gun makers might feel very differently about tying their fortunes to this amendment.
 

jmdajr

Member

How American Politics Went Insane

It happened gradually—and until the U.S. figures out how to treat the problem, it will only get worse.



Great article on why shit is so fucked up right now.

Trump, however, didn’t cause the chaos. The chaos caused Trump. What we are seeing is not a temporary spasm of chaos but a chaos syndrome.

Chaos syndrome is a chronic decline in the political system’s capacity for self-organization. It begins with the weakening of the institutions and brokers—political parties, career politicians, and congressional leaders and committees—that have historically held politicians accountable to one another and prevented everyone in the system from pursuing naked self-interest all the time. As these intermediaries’ influence fades, politicians, activists, and voters all become more individualistic and unaccountable. The system atomizes. Chaos becomes the new normal—both in campaigns and in the government itself.

Our intricate, informal system of political intermediation, which took many decades to build, did not commit suicide or die of old age; we reformed it to death. For decades, well-meaning political reformers have attacked intermediaries as corrupt, undemocratic, unnecessary, or (usually) all of the above. Americans have been busy demonizing and disempowering political professionals and parties, which is like spending decades abusing and attacking your own immune system. Eventually, you will get sick.

One of the most fascinating things is how Government transparency has actually made things WORSE. It has almost completely wiped out compromise on fear of voter retaliation. Which in turn leads to worse and worse candidates and less and less getting done.
 
So I heard Dems voted down the Republican proposals as well, whats the reasoning for that?

-They don't want to vote for NRA-backed proposals
-They don't want to meet the Republicans halfway (the bills don't go far enough/do enough/can't be implemented properly); they wanted their bills or nothing at all
-They want to use the issue cynically for political purposes, like the "Republicans support arming terrorists" stuff
 

Otnopolit

Member
-They don't want to vote for NRA-backed proposals
-They don't want to meet the Republicans halfway (the bills don't go far enough/do enough/can't be implemented properly); they wanted their bills or nothing at all
-They want to use the issue cynically for political purposes, like the "Republicans support arming terrorists" stuff

The last one seems like a leap. Maybe I'm just more inclined to believe the intentions of Democrats (first mistake?), but I refuse to think that cynically.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

We don't pick and choose what parts of the constitution are valid. It either applies to the hard cases or its just a meaningless piece of paper.


Lmao. Being from Europe and having read the American constitution, I find it funny that people always brings things like that.

There is several things in the us constitution that are not valid, like unlawful searches, bails set high as hell, not favouring a religion and so on, but don't you dare take about taking my guns.


Btw, it seems to be possible to add and remove stuff from the constitution, like in every country with a constitution, and also to introduce stuff that limits other points in the constitution, but that seems to be avoided on every conversation regarding the people's rigth to bear arms. I dunno, doesn't feel like saying "it's on the constitution" it's a valid response to anything.
 

Future

Member
The last one seems like a leap. Maybe I'm just more inclined to believe the intentions of Democrats (first mistake?), but I refuse to think that cynically.

You should. It's politics, not necessarily what's the best for the country or anyone. Like any job, maintaining their position itself is a job. A game that needs to be played for selfish reasons. This means voting along party lines and making decisions that make your party's future prospects stronger. Democrats are not immune to this. In fact they can't be or else they continue losing the game
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?
 

Future

Member
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?

An inaccurate, untrained gun wielded can be more dangerous than a trained one. Not at hitting the target, but at hitting unintended targets
 

jmdajr

Member
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?
Not sure what the numbers are for accidental shootings but that has to be very high as well. Plus part of training must be to always keep guns in a safe location,which I assume, many don't.
 

ExVicis

Member

How American Politics Went Insane

It happened gradually—and until the U.S. figures out how to treat the problem, it will only get worse.




Great article on why shit is so fucked up right now.



One of the most fascinating things is how Government transparency has actually made things WORSE. It has almost completely wiped out compromise on fear of voter retaliation. Which in turn leads to worse and worse candidates and less and less getting done.

Kanye West is leading a fractured field of Democrats

I don't know why but this slayed me.

This is a very interesting article though suggesting this disintegration of the entire process is just a result of everything just fighting itself to little or no gain. It's kind of amazing really how divided in the government everything is.
 
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?

Training is a chance to gauge if they'refit to weild a gun in self defence and provides discipline trining too. Or at least, it should.
 
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?

Training is a chance to gauge if they'refit to weild a gun in self defence and provides discipline trining too. Or at least, it should.

Yep. The training requirements are for gun owners who aren't going to be mass murderers (statistically, nearly all of them). The idea is that you can prevent unnecessary death or injury if you require basic firearm fitness and knowledge of safety guidelines. We obviously can't know how many deaths mandatory training has prevented, but my guess is that it's not an insignificant amount. The possibility that a gun owner could have an accident is much greater than the chance that he/she will go on a killing spree.

The NRA has historically been opposed to mandatory training, claiming it places an unnecessary burden on the exercise of a constitutional right and that it's simply a way for the government to harass/profit off of legal gun owners.
 

Somnid

Member
Can someone answer a question for me. I hear a lot of of pro gun and even anti gun advocates ask for gun training to be mandatory before getting a gun.

Wouldn't that make mass shootings worse? People are already killing dozens of people, you want them to get better at it?

It's not a mass shooting solution, it's an accidental gun death/injury solution which is probably more of an issue than mass shootings. You've heard news stories of people tucking a pistol into their waistband and blowing their junk off, handing a friend a loaded gun and it firing, children killing themselves or others when they get ahold of improperly stored guns etc. That's what that's all about.
 

Kickz

Member
-They don't want to vote for NRA-backed proposals
-They don't want to meet the Republicans halfway (the bills don't go far enough/do enough/can't be implemented properly); they wanted their bills or nothing at all
-They want to use the issue cynically for political purposes, like the "Republicans support arming terrorists" stuff

Obama should be condemning the Dems for playing politics then.
 

Lead

Banned
I think the amount of mass shootings is a good foundation for that issue
Not for raising and issue that has already been settled. It's called precedence and when that comes from the Supreme court it's not going to get thrown out.
No shit. With the frequency that gun laws are created and challenged in this country, I think it's a safe bet that within the next 5 years the Court will reexamine the 2nd Amendment, which brings me back to my question: do you think that Court will agree with DC v. Heller?
It doesn't matter, because it's not going to happen. I suggest you look up how the supreme court works, and why we even have cases there in the first place. It's to set precedence so the courts don't have to go over the same stuff every time every single person feels like they know better.
Nope you can shove that obviously uneducated opinion about a heavily debated split decision where the sun don't shine.

You shouldn't treat it like some unanimous decision handed down by Baby Jesus himself. Five completely fallible human beings told four other fallible human beings that they thought everyone should get a fucking gun in they want it.

As far as I am concerned the only reason it exists is because the Justices in favor of it succeeded in removing the argument from all context and basically turning it into a argument over semantics/grammar.

This is in spite of the fact that the Second Amendment is the only Constitutional amendment that is considered to include a prefatory clause. Sure, it has always been a common grammar pattern but that only means something when you take it out of context from the document...

The second goddamn comma could have been a fleck of bird shit from one of their ridiculous powdered wigs as far as we know.
I hear liberals a lot talking about dragging conservatives "kicking and screaming" into their ideology. This is what it looks like when it goes the opposite way.
 

Eidan

Member
It doesn't matter, because it's not going to happen. I suggest you look up how the supreme court works, and why we even have cases there in the first place. It's to set precedence so the courts don't have to go over the same stuff every time every single person feels like they know better.

You mean the same precedence that DC v. Heller overturned? As I said before, with the amount that gun laws in this country, we're guaranteed that the Court will be tackling the 2nd Amendment again soon. And with a favorable Court, it's going to be gun control advocates leading that effort.
 

Lead

Banned
You mean the same precedence that DC v. Heller overturned? As I said before, with the amount that gun laws in this country, we're guaranteed that the Court will be tackling the 2nd Amendment again soon. And with a favorable Court, it's going to be gun control advocates leading that effort.
District of Columbia v. Heller didn't overturn anything previously ruled by the supreme court. In fact, it was the first time ever it was questioned.
I mean, that's exactly what the supreme court is for...

I know you must be salivating at the thought of this fantasy of yours happening, but I suggest you stock up on water because you might be drooling for quite a while.
 

Eidan

Member
District of Columbia v. Heller didn't overturn anything previously ruled by the supreme court. In fact, it was the first time ever it was questioned.
I mean, that's exactly what the supreme court is for...

I know you must be salivating at the thought of this fantasy of yours happening, but I suggest you stock up on water because you might be drooling for quite a while.

D.C. v. Heller wasn't the first time the Court addressed the 2nd Amendment. With US v. Miller they essentially backed that the government was well within its rights to regulate and limit citizens' purchase of firearms, and that the 2nd Amendment was intended for service of a "well regulated militia", not guaranteeing an individual right.

That interpretation was followed in the lower courts for decades, and the Court further backed that interpretation in Lewis v.United States.

The precedent was well established. And then subsequently ignored, because there were enough conservatives on the Court to ignore it. So yes, I am salivating at the prospect of the Court examining the 2nd Amendment again.
 
D.C. v. Heller wasn't the first time the Court addressed the 2nd Amendment. With US v. Miller they essentially backed that the government was well within its rights to regulate and limit citizens' purchase of firearms, and that the 2nd Amendment was intended for service of a "well regulated militia", not guaranteeing an individual right.

That interpretation was followed in the lower courts for decades, and the Court further backed that interpretation in Lewis v.United States.

The precedent was well established. And then subsequently ignored, because there were enough conservatives on the Court to ignore it. So yes, I am salivating at the prospect of the Court examining the 2nd Amendment again.
U.S. v Miller said a sawed off shotgun didn't deserve protection under the 2nd amendment because it didn't have a military use. (Based on that argument, Military style AR rifles should receive the most 2nd amendment protection)

Edit: the quote from US v Miller is:
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.​

It didn't use the collective rights argument, or it would have just said Miller, a criminal gang member, was not part of a well regulated militia and had no 2nd amendment rights.

The text of U.S. v Miller is online to read. There were lower court decisions that endorsed the collective right interpretation that essentially removes the 2nd amendment from the constitution, but U.S. v Miller didn't explicitly support that.

None of the justices in U.S. v Heller, including both dissents, endorsed the collective right interpretation because it's not a sensible way to read the constitution. Something like Breyer's undue burden standard, but a remaining recognition of the individual right, is more likely even if a liberal SCOTUS decides to replace Heller.
 

Eidan

Member
U.S. v Miller said a sawed off shotgun didn't deserve protection under the 2nd amendment because it didn't have a military use. (Based on that argument, Military style AR rifles should receive the most 2nd amendment protection)

Edit: the quote from US v Miller is:
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.​

It didn't use the collective rights argument, or it would have just said Miller, a criminal gang member, was not part of a well regulated militia and had no 2nd amendment rights.

The text of U.S. v Miller is online to read. There were lower court decisions that endorsed the collective right interpretation that essentially removes the 2nd amendment from the constitution, but U.S. v Miller didn't explicitly support that.

None of the justices in U.S. v Heller, including both dissents, endorsed the collective right interpretation because it's not a sensible way to read the constitution. Something like Breyer's undue burden standard, but a remaining recognition of the individual right, is more likely even if a liberal SCOTUS decides to replace Heller.
Fair enough, though I always thought Stevens made a fairly strong case for the collective right interpretation in his dissent, but that could have just been my misunderstanding.

Here it is: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

Until today, it has been understood that legislatures may regulate the civilian use and misuse of firearms so long as they do not interfere with the preservation of a well-regulated militia. The Court’s announcement of a new constitutional right to own and use firearms for private purposes upsets that settled understanding, but leaves for future cases the formidable task of defining the scope of permissible regulations.
 

Garlador

Member
This is wrong. You can privately own field artillery, rocket launchers or even armed tanks.

A lot of this stuff is regulated by the NFA, but for the most part, everything you can think of can be gotten legally if you have enough $$$.
I stand corrected:
Weapons you can legally own. Also, we're insane.

The supreme court of the united states disagree with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
The supreme court is allow to re-evaluate and change their minds over time, listen to the will of the people, and re-interpret old laws and old rulings.

The Supreme Court heard a number of cases involving slavery in the late 1840s and 1850s. With one minor exception, slaveowners won every one of these cases and the Court overwhelmingly supported the power of Congress to assist them in recovering fugitive slaves. Plessy v. Ferguson,(1896) was a landmark United States Supreme Court decision upholding the constitutionality of state laws requiring racial segregation in public facilities under the doctrine of "separate but equal".

Thank goodness things changed later on, because the Supreme Court was dead wrong then and they've been plenty wrong many times afterward.
 

Lead

Banned
The supreme court is allow to re-evaluate and change their minds over time, listen to the will of the people, and re-interpret old laws and old rulings.

The Supreme Court heard a number of cases involving slavery in the late 1840s and 1850s. With one minor exception, slaveowners won every one of these cases and the Court overwhelmingly supported the power of Congress to assist them in recovering fugitive slaves. Plessy v. Ferguson,(1896) was a landmark United States Supreme Court decision upholding the constitutionality of state laws requiring racial segregation in public facilities under the doctrine of "separate but equal".

Thank goodness things changed later on, because the Supreme Court was dead wrong then and they've been plenty wrong many times afterward.
What you're asking is for the supreme court to admit they're wrong, it's not something they usually do, in fact it's extremely rare for decisions to be overturned. Generally what happens is that new rulings happens that sort of touches on the old ones and they get replaced.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but highly unlikely that we're going to see a change on the right to bear arms stance.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Lmao. Being from Europe and having read the American constitution, I find it funny that people always brings things like that.

There is several things in the us constitution that are not valid, like unlawful searches, bails set high as hell, not favouring a religion and so on, but don't you dare take about taking my guns.


Btw, it seems to be possible to add and remove stuff from the constitution, like in every country with a constitution, and also to introduce stuff that limits other points in the constitution, but that seems to be avoided on every conversation regarding the people's rigth to bear arms. I dunno, doesn't feel like saying "it's on the constitution" it's a valid response to anything.

Amendments to the constituation need 2/3rds majority of the states in order to ratify. In today's hyperpartison environment, it won't happen.
 
Fair enough, though I always thought Stevens made a fairly strong case for the collective right interpretation in his dissent, but that could have just been my misunderstanding.

Here it is: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

Sure, but the very first paragraph of Stevens' opinion calls the right an individual right:

The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.​

Now, Stevens' individual right does seem to apply only to serving in a state militia, so it's a right that means nothing in practice (since why would the Federal government try to disarm the National Guard?)

I think all of the judges avoided the "collective right" language because "collective right" was just a legal shorthand to dismiss the 2nd amendment as meaningless - when the SCOTUS actually had to judge what the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" means, they couldn't fall back on the old language of the "collective right". Instead the dissenters went with a narrow individual right, which exists but has no effect since the National Guard is governed under Federal law today.
 
Also, dissents mean absolutely nothing as far as precedent goes. The chances of the Supreme Court overturning an 8 year old decision are also quite slim.

Also, it's got to mean something that our con law professor spent about 2 minutes on the 2nd amendment. As much as gun control advocates like to see a controversy, there really isn't one.
 

Garlador

Member
What you're asking is for the supreme court to admit they're wrong, it's not something they usually do, in fact it's extremely rare for decisions to be overturned. Generally what happens is that new rulings happens that sort of touches on the old ones and they get replaced.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but highly unlikely that we're going to see a change on the right to bear arms stance.

The Supreme Court is not a hivemind, and it gets new members over the decades. Hell, we're SUPPOSED to have a new SC Justice right NOW if republicans decided to do their job. And the nominee will have their own political leanings and interpretation of archaic, vaguely stated laws and rulings.

The SC has "admitted" it was wrong hundreds, if not thousands, of times over the centuries by negating prior rulings, amending prior rulings, or instigating new rulings that factor in the political and social climate of their times.

The same SC that once said that slaves weren't people but property was not the one that voted to uphold their freedoms and liberties, and the SC that voted that black people didn't count as 100% of a person and interracial marriage was prohibited and "separate but equal" was constitutional was not the one that decided that was all wrong and challenged it.

And you say it's "impossible"... well... the U.S. Supreme Court declared the anti-miscegenation laws that were still in place among 16 states to be unconstitutional. U.S. couples - whether of the same or different races - became eligible to marry in any state. The Court reached this conclusion even though the vast majority (72%) of American adults were still opposed to legalizing interracial marriage at the time. Also a near majority (48%) favored criminal punishments for interracial couples who married.

Progress was made despite the bigotry of the population and common sense prevailed, even though at the time many people felt such meaningful change was "impossible" due to the landscape of the nation at the time.

In two years, if Republicans lose Congress, I think you'll be surprised how many "impossible" things can happen.
 
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