He is implying that bluray made the ps3 a $599 console and adding a cell for BC would not.
Personally I think BC with PS3 is not going to happen nor is it needed.
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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
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He is implying that bluray made the ps3 a $599 console and adding a cell for BC would not.
Personally I think BC with PS3 is not going to happen nor is it needed.
Psychotext
Member
The PS3 was ridiculously expensive because at the time blu-ray diodes were rarer than rocking horse shit and seriously, seriously pricey. It was not expensive because of any exotic circuitry (or PS2 chipset, which was included on earlier models).
The $300 figure probably isn't accurate, but I recall at the time it made up easily the single biggest cost of any item in the console.
Phonomezer
Banned
What about digital games?
phosphor112
Banned
Can't have one without the other.
Buy the new HD+ remake lol
Phonomezer
Banned
I wouldn't be surprised if they were just streamed. An awful solution, however.
pr0cs
Member
You can bet that any system that doesn't have BC especially with network/digital games will become a LOT less attractive to people who previously bought a lot of digital content.
I know personally I will be a LOT more stingy when it comes to DLC and digital downloads if the company decides that the money I spent previously dies with their last console.
Think of it the other way around though.
How long does it take to do a HD remaster of a game? How many can they release in one year?
How many people would download FFX and FFXII if they were put up in the PS2 classics section on the PSN?
While there are people that will buy HD remasters, you can't remaster the entire PS2 library so only key titles will ever get it and it could take years to cover even then top 1% of PS2 releases.
On the flip side, if everyone can download PS2 Classics from the store then they make money for doing next to nothing once the emulator is running.
Plus if they are PSN releases then you cut the retailer out so more money goes into Sony and the publisher/developer pockets. You can add them to PS+, you can save them and only introduce on quiet weeks to keep the content flowing.
I honestly think that if the options were only a) remaster it or b) release as PS2 Classic, then the latter is the better option with no risk. If no bugger buys the game then what have Sony lost? The question is can they get the PS4 to do it easily enough.
For a time yes, but people cave eventually one way or another; only a vast minority will hold out.
Graverobber could chime in his feelings about this being the resident DLC philanthropist.
Why would it be $599?
Blu-Ray isn't new tech anymore,
No new exotic CPU chip that's only being used by the PS4.
CPU & GPU not so big & hot so it shouldn't take a big cooling solution.
2.5 HDD cheaper.
Wifi , HDMI, Bluetooth all pretty much standard parts now.
He's right!
and a 12x blu-ray drive is $50 on newegg nowdays so they are really cheap!
longdi
Banned
Is the orbis bandwidth downgrade through? wont that put it near durango combined bandwidth but with half the ram?
32gb esram is small but microsoft is not stupid to survive on only ddr3 for graphics. they have made 2 powerhouse consoles, dont see them flopping this one.
so now the orbis saving grace is the bigger tflops...sucks that none of them can hit 2.5tflops.
32gb esram is small but microsoft is not stupid to survive on only ddr3 for graphics. they have made 2 powerhouse consoles, dont see them flopping this one.
so now the orbis saving grace is the bigger tflops...sucks that none of them can hit 2.5tflops.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
lol no
Backwards compatibility would be a welcome feature, no doubt. Its importance will ultimately be decided by E3 once we learn of Sony's launch plans. The more exciting games available for launch, the more redundant backwards compatibility becomes. I hope PSN accounts are transferable including trophies, downloadable games, saves, settings... etc.
It will be interesting to the Sony's bill of materials for the PS4. R&D has been significantly reduced by their decision to outsource chip development to AMD. Each component will probably be nearly identical in cost to its PS3 counterpart except for Blu-ray and Cell which will cost significantly less. My cost estimation for 4GB of GDDR5 and the GPU is $140/unit because of the accounting methods economies of scale permits. Economies of scale will reduce costs of the Jaguar to $80/unit. 12x Blu-ray player will cost around $40/unit. 500GB HDD should be cheap at $25/unit with large production scales. USB, WiFi, Ethernet, and Bluetooth components combined costs will approximate to $20. Lastly, other components will probably cost around $105 because I think Sony is including some kind of dual-camera crap that will bring an unnecessary cost increase of $40 to that category. That brings my estimated total cost to produce a single PS4 to $410, give or take $20.
Disclaimer: my numbers aren't based off anything official, I don't claim to have any insider knowledge, these numbers are simply approximations based off general knowledge I have picked up on since next-gen speculation started heating up a long time ago.
He's right!
and a 12x blu-ray drive is $50 on newegg nowdays so they are really cheap!
It will be interesting to the Sony's bill of materials for the PS4. R&D has been significantly reduced by their decision to outsource chip development to AMD. Each component will probably be nearly identical in cost to its PS3 counterpart except for Blu-ray and Cell which will cost significantly less. My cost estimation for 4GB of GDDR5 and the GPU is $140/unit because of the accounting methods economies of scale permits. Economies of scale will reduce costs of the Jaguar to $80/unit. 12x Blu-ray player will cost around $40/unit. 500GB HDD should be cheap at $25/unit with large production scales. USB, WiFi, Ethernet, and Bluetooth components combined costs will approximate to $20. Lastly, other components will probably cost around $105 because I think Sony is including some kind of dual-camera crap that will bring an unnecessary cost increase of $40 to that category. That brings my estimated total cost to produce a single PS4 to $410, give or take $20.
Disclaimer: my numbers aren't based off anything official, I don't claim to have any insider knowledge, these numbers are simply approximations based off general knowledge I have picked up on since next-gen speculation started heating up a long time ago.
Yeah, not much screams 'expensive' about either design except for maybe the 4GB of GDDR5 in the PS4. Who knows about the special sauce(s) etc and what they cost. Another factor could be radical redesigns to controller techs similar to Nintendo. If PS4 has a Vita'esque controller standard, then you yes, you would be looking at a $499min system in all likelihood.
AuthenticM
Member
He's right!
and a 12x blu-ray drive is $50 on newegg nowdays so they are really cheap!
How much would it cost Sony to add Wifi N to the PS3 ?
Why is it not needed?
next to nothing likely specially as usb dongles and pci-cards are about £10 and it would be so much cheaper in bulk using the raw components. but why would they so late into this gen?
while BD drives were expensive, they were $125, while everything together was $850.
http://mrwavetheory.blogspot.com/2007/01/whos-inside-ps3-playstation-3-bill-of.html
In 2009 it went down to $340:
So no, $300 was not accurate at all. People forget that console does not mean cpu + gpu.... there is a lot of stuff inside.
longdi
Banned
i am a firm believer MS is onto something with the esram. If durango ends up being starve of bandwidth i would chop my dick off. But no, they are just too smart to miss out on this glaring flaw.
The way i see it, orbis may be held back by sony financials. durango should not have such problems, so the more custom design MS choose should be able to survive the ddr3 ram bandwidth. you can call it blind faith but MS is like a million pounds richer to hold back if it is their plan
Psychotext
Member
Would be nice if they did it for the final slim revision (and hopefully get rid of that fugly slide lid).
There's an image right above your post which has a different analysis. Who knows exactly what is right, but I know that at launch they were taking a bath on the hardware (to the tune of hundreds of dollars per unit) and a significant proportion of that was due to the drive.
phosphor112
Banned
I think this is huge. I was reading the patent I posted and found this...
Someone mentioned that adding a the Processing Element (that patent I linked to) would require adding a new bus, but this patent says otherwise.
"The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."
Also...
"The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."
So connecting memory to this won't be a problem at all, the GDDR5 also acts as a fast enough memory, exceeding XDR in every way possible.
EDIT: TL;DR: This means BC can be achieved through this patent by ONLY NEEDING TO ADD the Processing Element(s) to the system. The GDDR5 would be able to be used for the PE.
Someone mentioned that adding a the Processing Element (that patent I linked to) would require adding a new bus, but this patent says otherwise.
"The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."
Also...
"The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."
So connecting memory to this won't be a problem at all, the GDDR5 also acts as a fast enough memory, exceeding XDR in every way possible.
EDIT: TL;DR: This means BC can be achieved through this patent by ONLY NEEDING TO ADD the Processing Element(s) to the system. The GDDR5 would be able to be used for the PE.
nelsonroyale
Member
If they didn't care about budget they could have just put in a more powerful gpu surely, although obviously they have got to think of energy efficiency as well. I doubt you can get the best of both worlds really, considering MS is likely going in focused on multi functionality.
while BD drives were expensive, they were $125, while everything together was $850.
http://mrwavetheory.blogspot.com/2007/01/whos-inside-ps3-playstation-3-bill-of.html
In 2009 it went down to $340:
So no, $300 was not accurate at all. People forget that console does not mean cpu + gpu.... there is a lot of stuff inside.
what does 2009 have to do with anything?
iceatcs
Junior Member
Probably quite lot of money. Licence, signal R&D, health and safety etc..
So it is better off do that on next system rather than revision model.
isuppll from 2006 is widely accepted as correct one, that crap above from ML is someone's dream.
apparently you dont know how to click on links so now I have big pic for easier understanding of what was going on in 2006.
Psychotext
Member
I find it highly unlikely that they were putting together blu-ray drives for $125 at launch given the diode shortages, but it doesn't make any real difference. The point was that it was still a large part of why the PS3 was so expensive.
You know something you would like to share?
phosphor112
Banned
He means, in 2 years, the costs were cut down by 2/3rds. By now it would be super cheap to "reuse" any parts.
then I hope all those Arcade Machines in your avatar aren't yours.
longdi
Banned
the thing is no one is sure how custom their gpu is so hard to compare directly.
orbis, sure it is a 7970m. at least most rumors point to.
but the rumors about durango gpu is unclear. with esram and dme, it already sounds more customed.
No one knows anything about either GPU beyond possible TFlops.
phosphor112
Banned
No one has a comment on my find in that patent? That really means BC is within reach.
i totally get not wanting BC(because its added price) but i don't see how sony has much to lose by adding a premium sku that has BC for an extra 100 bucks. if they can pull it off by only needing a cell on the motherboard, they would totally make more money off that premium model than the standard one
i'd be willing to pay 100 for what essentially is a ps3 inside my ps4, just for convenience
i'd be willing to pay 100 for what essentially is a ps3 inside my ps4, just for convenience
Psychotext
Member
They've also got a patent for an external BC dongle... the problem is, lots of stuff gets patented, not everything gets used (for various reasons).
Sony Patents Emotion Engine Emulation Technology For Cell Processors
Because we have seen it "promised" before.
That all depends on how much it would cost to add it in. It's not just about the cost of the part, it has to have a totally different board layout, which means it needs to be manufactured separately.
phosphor112
Banned
This implementation would be much better than a "BC Dongle."
They literally just need to find a way to put the chips in and then just use the GDDR5 ram. That's it. It would give extra processing power AND bc.
They do have that working... what do you think the PS2 classic games are? PS3 simply doesn't have enough bandwidth for most PS2 games to be emulated. The PS2 SMASHES 360 and PS3 in terms of bandwidth.
And get this, the PS4 with the 170+GB/s RAM SMASHES both PS2 AND PS3.
phosphor112
Banned
double
Psychotext
Member
I wouldn't for disc based games. I would for PSN games though, as I have a ridiculous amount (many of which I've never even started playing).
Oh, duh. I care about those too. I'm really tired. Barely slept at all last night and had to be at work at 4:45am this morning. I always find I wind up making stupid posts that even I disagree with when I post in this state. Time for bed.
One thing I do find odd is that BC is something we haven't heard any rumors about at all, one way or the other.
phosphor112
Banned
Another thing on the patent:
That means if they wanted to, they can put memory for BC within the PE itself, or if they didn't want to bother with adding more, they can just use the "seperate" memory in the main pool of ram. In this case, that would be the GDDR5.
That means if they wanted to, they can put memory for BC within the PE itself, or if they didn't want to bother with adding more, they can just use the "seperate" memory in the main pool of ram. In this case, that would be the GDDR5.
seventynine
Member
Just thinking about the short sighted-ness of those declaring BC to be useless or a cost too far. If included, it grants the PS4 Store a wealth of content that otherwise would not be there. Not every potential PS4 buyer would nessassery have owned a PS3 after all.
And quick note about the HD classics range. The appeal of these is not just limited to the HD upgrade but also the trophy sets they contain, 2 or 3 whole sets per disc at a reduced cost compared to a brand new release. Unless an 'Ultra HD remaster' contains a whole new set of trophy's I see it being of limited interest to consumers.
And quick note about the HD classics range. The appeal of these is not just limited to the HD upgrade but also the trophy sets they contain, 2 or 3 whole sets per disc at a reduced cost compared to a brand new release. Unless an 'Ultra HD remaster' contains a whole new set of trophy's I see it being of limited interest to consumers.
and yeah, it also shows it is not that cheap
.People expect PS4 to be $399 when new stuff will be more expensive than Cell+RSX in Slim. So if they sell it at $399, it might be at least $100 more expensive to make.
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