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[phosphor112]

and yeah, it also shows it is not that cheap .

People expect PS4 to be $399 when new stuff will be more expensive than Cell+RSX in Slim. So if they sell it at $399, it might be at least $100 more expensive to make.

They shouldn't as they are much smaller.

 

[chiablo]

CPU: 8-core Jaguar

 

[RoboPlato]

I wonder what they'll do for Plus members if there isn't BC on Orbis.

 

[phosphor112]

I wonder what they'll do for Plus members if there isn't BC on Orbis.

PS4 will continue the "No gaems" meme.

 

[Clay Davis]

I wonder what they'll do for Plus members if there isn't BC on Orbis.

good question. one thing they could do is start a orbis IGC with one or two of the lowest selling launch titles and then build from there. I assume they have a ton of smaller titles lined up for download at launch too, so those could be thrown in.

that's if there's no BC. in a perverse way, I'd actually like to see what happens if they don't offer BC, how badly or not it would affect their online ecosystem.

 

[systemfehler]

No news via the PM network?

 

[RiverBed]

Companies are fighting for precious real estate in the entertainment center.

Believe it or not, not everyone has an entertainment center that looks like this.

OMG that is perfection right there!

 

[Raist]

Sony Patents Emotion Engine Emulation Technology For Cell Processors

Because we have seen it "promised" before.

Well emulating the EE was never a problem. As a matter of fact it was removed from the launch PAL PS3s with very little impact on BC. The issue was the ridiculous bandwith of the EDRAM in the GS.

 

[Clay Davis]

Companies are fighting for precious real estate in the entertainment center.

Believe it or not, not everyone has an entertainment center that looks like this.

I see an xbox, gc, megadrive, nes, ps1, ps2, ps3, snes, dreamcast, saturn, jaguar. I'm at a loss with the rest. the one of far left top corner looks like a megadrive with mega cd.

 

[phosphor112]

Well emulating the EE was never a problem. As a matter of fact it was removed from the PAL PS3s. The issue was the ridiculous bandwith of the EDRAM in the GS.

This dude knows whats up. They emulated the EE just fine on the PS3, as proven by the PS2 classics... It's the bandwidth that limits the game selection.

I see an xbox, gc, megadrive, nes, ps1, ps2, ps3, snes, dreamcast, saturn, jaguar. I'm at a loss with the rest. the one of far left top corner looks like a megadrive with mega cd.

Famicom with Famicom Disc System

 

[Violater]

Well emulating the EE was never a problem. As a matter of fact it was removed from the PAL PS3s. The issue was the ridiculous bandwith of the EDRAM in the GS.

Well if they get it working for PS4 I will be glad, but I am not getting my hopes up nor is it a deal breaker for me.

 

[Clay Davis]

Famicom with Famicom Disc System

I didn't even know the famicom had a disc system.

 

[googleplex]

Well emulating the EE was never a problem a matter of fact it was removed from the launch PAL PS3s with very little impact on BC. The issue was the ridiculous bandwith of the EDRAM in the GS.

What was the GS's bandwith? Surely not more then the PS4's rumored 178 GB/S!

 

[AgentP]

Well if they get it working for PS4 I will be glad, but I am not getting my hopes up nor is it a deal breaker for me.

Well it would be easy to get the 48GB/s bandwidth of the GS in the PS4, but the PS3 only had 25GB/s to use.

 

[Horse Armour]

What was the GS's bandwith? Surely not more then the PS4's rumored 178 GB/S!

48GB/s.

 

[Raist]

What was the GS's bandwith? Surely not more then the PS4's rumored 178 GB/S!

No, of course not. I was refering to the issue of emulating it for the PS3. I think it was 48GB/s or something ridiculous like that.

edit: beaten hard and twice.

 

[phosphor112]

I didn't even know the famicom had a disc system.

The more you know. ;]

Anyway, regarding PS3 emulating PS2... and PS4 emulating PS3

Bandwidth for PS2:
48 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS3:
22-25 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS4:
170+ GB/s

Putting the PE's into the PS4 would allow Sony to emulate PS3...
And as a result, Sony can emulate the PS2.

EDIT: Damn, Horse Armor got me beat.

 

[ypo]

32gb esram is small but microsoft is not stupid to survive on only ddr3 for graphics. they have made 2 powerhouse consoles, dont see them flopping this one.

Oh please if it weren't for Epic games really pushing them MS would've released 360 with 256MB of RAM. That would've been a disaster. The first Xbox is what it is due to releasing much later.

 

[Zaventem]

I can picture the Killzone 4 gifs oh man.Next gen is going to be great

 

[Darkangus]

The more you know. ;]

Anyway, regarding PS3 emulating PS2... and PS4 emulating PS3

Bandwidth for PS2:
48 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS3:
22-25 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS4:
170+ GB/s

Putting the PE's into the PS4 would allow Sony to emulate PS3...
And as a result, Sony can emulate the PS2.

EDIT: Damn, Horse Armor got me beat.

=)

 

[Kagari]

Anyone know the bandwidth for the Vita?

 

[Horse Armour]

Anyone know the bandwidth for the Vita?

Apparently the VRAM is 512bits wide (previously thought to be 1024bit). It's difficult to know the bandwidth since we don't know the speeds of the memory chips and their bus size.

 

[Jhriad]

Another thing on the patent:



That means if they wanted to, they can put memory for BC within the PE itself, or if they didn't want to bother with adding more, they can just use the "seperate" memory in the main pool of ram. In this case, that would be the GDDR5.

I'll say my prayers to Kaz that we get BC.

 

[shinobi602]

Believe it or not, not everyone has an entertainment center that looks like this.

Holy shit.

Amazing.

 

[phosphor112]

Apparently the VRAM is 512bits wide (previously thought to be 1024bit). It's difficult to know the bandwidth since we don't know the speeds of the memory chips and their bus size.

Lol, you're on top of this.

I like how Sony went with an ultra wide io for the Vita. It shows they are pushing their tech.

 

[davious88]

The more you know. ;]

Anyway, regarding PS3 emulating PS2... and PS4 emulating PS3

Bandwidth for PS2:
48 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS3:
22-25 GB/s
Bandwidth for PS4:
170+ GB/s

Putting the PE's into the PS4 would allow Sony to emulate PS3...
And as a result, Sony can emulate the PS2.

EDIT: Damn, Horse Armor got me beat.

So what are our chances of having BC in Orbison?

 

[DieH@rd]

Anyone know the bandwidth for the Vita?

Supposedly 12GB/s for VRAM.

 

[thuway]

i am a firm believer MS is onto something with the esram. If durango ends up being starve of bandwidth i would chop my dick off. But no, they are just too smart to miss out on this glaring flaw.

The way i see it, orbis may be held back by sony financials. durango should not have such problems, so the more custom design MS choose should be able to survive the ddr3 ram bandwidth. you can call it blind faith but MS is like a million pounds richer to hold back if it is their plan

The trolling never ends.

 

[phosphor112]

So what are our chances of having BC in Orbison?

The more I read this patent, the more I think it's possible. They have to contribute ZERO in terms of adding more RAM if they add those chips. And those chips can multifunction as PS4 parts for processing.

 

[davious88]

The more I read this patent, the more I think it's possible. They have to contribute ZERO in terms of adding more RAM if they add those chips. And those chips can multifunction as PS4 parts for processing.

I mean Dust 514 is still in beta, wouldn't they need BC for it run on PS4? (Providing Sony don't just let it die)

 

[Evolution_1ne]

The more I read this patent, the more I think it's possible. They have to contribute ZERO in terms of adding more RAM if they add those chips. And those chips can multifunction as PS4 parts for processing.

that would be known as a win win right? kill two birds with one stone, etc

 

[phosphor112]

I mean Dust 514 is still in beta, wouldn't they need BC for it run on PS4? (Providing Sony don't just let it die)

Yes, I've brought this up before. By the time it hits "release" PS4 will be out.

that would be known as a win win right? kill two birds with one stone, etc

Yes. It always costs money to add more chips, but it wouldn't have the cost of adding a new memory controller, bus, or ram in general, like others suggest.

 

[corn_fest]

I've always thought they would include BC. Leaving the whole library of PSN games to die would be a terrible business decision.

 

[googleplex]

The more I read this patent, the more I think it's possible. They have to contribute ZERO in terms of adding more RAM if they add those chips. And those chips can multifunction as PS4 parts for processing.

A double win as far as I'm concerned!

But at the cost of a more complex mombo, and higher heat envelope. Which equals more expensive cooling solution.

 

[phosphor112]

A double win as far as I'm concerned!

But at the cost of a more complex mombo, and higher heat envelope. Which equals more expensive cooling solution.

Not by much, they are small parts. If they can incorporate it into the SOC, as these parts can connect to the AMD design (...as AMD designed chips to "plug into" one another), it would be fantastic...

Jeff knows more about that AMD thing though.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

The more I read this patent, the more I think it's possible. They have to contribute ZERO in terms of adding more RAM if they add those chips. And those chips can multifunction as PS4 parts for processing.

I sure as hell hope so I'll be bummed if I can't play Journey\Flower on PS4.

 

[thuway]

the thing is no one is sure how custom their gpu is so hard to compare directly.
orbis, sure it is a 7970m. at least most rumors point to.
but the rumors about durango gpu is unclear. with esram and dme, it already sounds more customed.

Orbis started off as a 7950 which had certain portions amplified and shaved away. This I've heard from a few people.

As for Durango, Bkilian (the source of most rumors concerning Durango) mentioned he left Microsoft because his superiors were increasingly frustrated at both the casual and non-tech oriented push for the machine. Read into that however you want.

Early Durango devkits were essentially beasts, but I wonder how any of this will translate over to final silicon. I find it hard to believe Microsoft would offer developers such powerful devkits if their final machine couldn't perform up to the mark. However, as with the nature of development, it's not unforseen to see massive downgrades. (see PS3)

Durango's final silicon is supposedly ready- 1.2 TF, 8 GB of RAM DDR3 w/ ES RAM. That is a fact which will not change.

 

[googleplex]

Not by much, they are small parts. If they can incorporate it into the SOC, as these parts can connect to the AMD design (...as AMD designed chips to "plug into" one another), it would be fantastic...

Jeff knows more about that AMD thing though.

Ok I'm going to need you to stop posting, because now your starting to convince me that PS3 BC may actually happen! And my heart won't be able to handle the disappointed when it doesn't

 

[Psychotext]

Early Durango devkits were essentially beasts, but I wonder how any of this will translate over to final silicon. I find it hard to believe Microsoft would offer developers such powerful devkits if their final machine couldn't perform up to the mark.

Would be a total clusterfuck. They'd basically kill the launch because the games would either run like shit or look like shit because devs had to cut out effects etc to make the games run at an acceptable clip.

 

[phosphor112]

Ok I'm going to need you to stop posting, because now your starting to convince me that PS3 BC may actually happen! And my heart won't be able to handle the disappointed when it doesn't

Your body won't be ready.

 

[params7]

As for Durango, Bkilian (the source of most rumors concerning Durango) mentioned he left Microsoft because his superiors were increasingly frustrated at both the casual and non-tech oriented push for the machine. Read into that however you want.

Oh there definitely is a big, big push within Microsoft's entertainment division to enable Xbox in more non-core gaming spectrums. The VP of MS's entertainment division gave a lecture in my uni about two months ago. Talked a lot about how Xbox is pushing on with Kinect and being used for non-gaming activities, such as teaching or learning, etc. I dozed off and left the talk a little while after that hoping Sony isn't focusing too much on all this.

 

[Pistolero]

Orbis started off as a 7950 which had certain portions amplified and shaved away. This I've heard from a few people.

Have you heard anything remotely interesting regarding the current Liverpool GPU layout?

That is a fact which will not change.

Fact, as F-A-C-T; or fact, as of recurring rumors...

 

[astroturfing]

full no nonsense 100% BC would be a pretty damn good selling point wouldn't it? they could advertise the PS4 as "THE playstation", that plays all playstation games ever released, so many classics since the nineties etc.

for me it would be a massive, massive plus. i could finally put away my PS2 and i also wouldn't have to be constantly afraid of my PS3 crapping out again.. would be hugely convenient to just have one console that plays every game i own (and will own) from Wipeout to Vice City to The Last of Us to Watch_Dogs. (well i have some PC, GC and DS games too but my main collection is PS games).

 

[patsu]

Oh there definitely is a big, big push within Microsoft's entertainment division to enable Xbox in more non-core gaming spectrums. The VP of MS's entertainment division gave a lecture in my uni about two months ago. Talked a lot about how Xbox is pushing on with Kinect and being used for non-gaming activities, such as teaching or learning, etc. I dozed off and left the talk a little while after that hoping Sony isn't focusing too much on all this.

What is the name of the lecture ? And why were they invited ? ^_^

 

[thuway]

Would be a total clusterfuck. They'd basically kill the launch because the games would either run like shit or look like shit because devs had to cut out effects etc to make the games run at an acceptable clip.

Let's not exaggerate things. Certain downgrades will be made. Slightly lower resolution, downgrading texture sizes, lower poly characters; however the games will still be the same. PS3 was the victim of terrible port jobs early this gen, but the mainstream consumers failed to both give a fuck and were oblivious to the fact. Most consumers couldn't care less which is technically superior as long as the game looked good enough.

In the worst case scenario, the weaker machine will be Gamecube and the stronger machine Xbox. Technically superior doesn't outweigh factors such as which machine your friends own, diverse online ecosystems, and a reliable network

 

[mattp]

full no nonsense 100% BC would be a pretty damn good selling point wouldn't it? they could advertise the PS4 as "THE playstation", that plays all playstation games ever released, so many classics since the nineties etc.

for me it would be a massive, massive plus. i could finally put away my PS2 and i also wouldn't have to be constantly afraid of my PS3 crapping out again.. would be hugely convenient to just have one console that plays every game i own from Wipeout to Vice City to The Last of Us to Watch_Dogs. (well i have some PC, GC and DS games too but my main collection is PS games).

if i could somehow be guaranteed it wouldnt overheat like my 60gb i'd pay 500 bucks for this.(also ps1/2 memory card slots plz)

 

[Psychotext]

Let's not exaggerate things. Certain downgrades will be made. Slightly lower resolution, downgrading texture sizes, lower poly characters; however the games will still be the same.

Not if they've gone from a monster machine to what we see here on paper. They wouldn't be minor downgrades, they'd be huge.

On the face of it, the devkits would stomp the "final spec" machine into a pulp. So there's either something we (well, maybe not you, but the uninformed amongst us) don't know, or there are going to be significant downgrades.

 

[Arkham]

OMG that is perfection right there!

No, he's missing a ColecoVision. Fail.

 

[thuway]

Not if they've gone from a monster machine to what we see here on paper. They wouldn't be minor downgrades, they'd be huge.

On the face of it, the devkits would stomp the "final spec" machine into a pulp. So there's either something we don't know, or there are going to be significant downgrades.

I beg to differ. Just look at Gamecube and Xbox. You can also take a 7770 and a 7950 and perform these tests yourself. You can make third party titles look very similar barring expensive features like resolution and AA.In any case, I am not contending there will be no visual differences. I am suggesting the technical discrepancies will not be jarring enough for the mass public to give a shit.


My family is more likely to pick up a Durango for all the multimedia features and Kinnect integration. This is dat Microsoft moneyz .

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

Sony is going with a 32bit CPU though,

and the Cell was a 64bit cpu.. Won't that cause issues or make emulation impossible?