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VGleaks: Orbis Unveiled! [Updated]
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
Brad Grenz
Member
It wasn't a valid question. He was making a fallacious argument. He's taking a conclusion as granted and trying to invent evidence to fit that conclusion. That is completely backwards and should always be challenged no matter who they are or what they're talking about.
We have a couple incredibly vague comments from a very few people who are actually in the know. As far as they're concerned the Orbis and Durango as rumored now are far more similar than any competing platforms have ever been. To a developer they are nearly identical to create games for. That doesn't mean their performance is equivalent, no matter how many people want to believe that's the case. Other than that, most of the "they're basically the same" crowd have been pumping up stats they don't understand and promoting the notion of magical hardware features to support their preconceived notions.
Was about to post that.
From data presented, we really can't compare directly to PC architecture in therms of flops at all. Difference between architecture, latencies, access, stucture is just to different to modular PC.
And that is even without code to metal part with some of developers will use.
Also hardware decompressor should fill hole that was when HDD instead of SSD will be used.
Still I do wonder about it all given the impact of the PS3 being starved of RAM. Especially if its true regarding the amount of RAM the Xbox has (8GB). It certainly would seem to impact both multitasking and non game operations.
Of course still being limited to 1080p I guess limits the need for lots more video memory compared to the PC.
I think youre treating his post as fact, which he didnt imply but you insinuated. Nobody should be that defensive over what he said, we are all guessing here and nothing is concrete until we get official numbers. My friendly advice? Take a step back and read what he is asking.
Take for example Johnny, he had very good reply to his question:
Brad Grenz
Member
No. He made a claim, that there must be secret physics hardware providing an addition 500+ GFlops, based on a premature assumption, that Durango and Orbis must have equivalent performance, and I refuted the fallacy. The only one getting defensive here is you.
PS3 ram problem is something different than this situation. Right now only the best gpus have 3,5 GB GDDR5 ram. 4 GB GDDR5 is a fucking lot of ram. MS DDR3 ram even with esram is almost twice slow because you can't really add bandwidths.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I dunno man, he just pointing something out which happens to be pretty reasonable, and your words coming off pretty defensive and like your pissed about it.
Stack it.
systemfehler
Member
Sadly not ready yet and a custom solution will be too expensive. I personally would have prefered PS4/720 in 2014 with HSA, Kaveri, etc. instead of launching right before a big gap.
grimshawish
Banned
I think Brad is making a good point. Why presume parity? Just to get a clearer image of things; what would be the price difference between 4GB DDR5 and 8GB DDR3 and 32mb esRAM?
Anyway parity is a nice thought but its been clear since the RAM leaks both systems are optimising around two seperate goals. Which makes the idea of parity kind of doubtful and odd.
Edit: Though he did word things poorly.
Anyway parity is a nice thought but its been clear since the RAM leaks both systems are optimising around two seperate goals. Which makes the idea of parity kind of doubtful and odd.
Edit: Though he did word things poorly.
That's the possible solution but we don't know if it is stacked or not. Mind you Orbis also had planed stacked memory in line at some point. But from looks stacked memory is still to early in production for consoles which will be released this year.
Both MS and Sony can't wait to get better tech and leave other with a year of headstart. Also even without it Orbis still looks fantastic to me. Theoretical flop output is worse than that of high end PC but architecture latencies are just beyond PC and that alone would give terrific boost in achieving theoretical flop output. PC can have 3Tf but a lot of this power is just wasted. And if some developers will code to metal (like Sony studios) we can pretty sure expect amazing things. Closed efficient hardware does that.
I'm going to say one last thing about this all, I don't feel that his point or question was that controversial. Let's leave it at that.
Brad Grenz
Member
Frankly, I was perfectly polite as I pointed out the flaw in his reasoning in my original reply, so I have to wonder what your and TheOddOne's motivations could possibly be at this point. It isn't useful or productive to have people who don't know what they're talking about polluting technical threads with fallacious arguments. But as we can see now, that pales in comparison to people who rush to defend them.
yeah but PC memory isn't limited to their VRAM. And some high end AMD GPU come with 6GB GDDR5. So are some Tesla, but i'd gladly agree that this is hardly of any use in games right now.
PC is much different that console in that case. PC isn't efficient. For example GTA4 on same specs with comparable graphical effects at same resolution just couldn't fit into 500MB or Ram on PC which PS3/X360 use.
systemfehler
Member
The problem is that the brute force of PCs is already very high and with the release of DDR4, cheaper SSDs, HSA/Kaveri, Haswell, etc. this gap will get bigger right at the PS4 launch. Even though consoles are a known entity where a developer can work much closer to the hardware there is still overhead especially from the OS (network, chat, security, etc.).
I am sure we will see amazing gains but I would have sacrificed an earlier launch for a bigger leap. Of course Sony can't let Nintendo alone for 2 years and MS for 1 but if both would have gone the high power route I would understand a 2014 launch. It will still take a while until the Wii-U is ready to show off and until then 360 and PS3 would suffice.
I think it all boils down to a limited budget more than technology available. Even if they released a year later, given the same budget, the gap between them and PC would roughly be the same. Nothing guarantee they would have featured brand new technologies such as DDR4, even if it was available.
Sure, was just pointing out that even fast 3.5GB of total ram isn't exactly a lot for 2013, let alone 4/5 years later. I'm happy with it though, i'm sure devs will adapt, and I wasn't expecting more than 4GB.
New Eyetoy "Dual Camera" will have mic.
I'm hoping ds4 has mic on board. Would make sense if controllers can be tied to user accounts via logging on.
Fox_Mulder
Rockefellers. Skull and Bones. Microsoft. Al Qaeda. A Cabal of Bankers. The melting point of steel. What do these things have in common? Wake up sheeple, the landfill wasn't even REAL!
1.6 billion triangles/s, 1.6 billion vertices/s.......how is it possible?
Yes, and not even hardware budget but development budget. Games that push next-gen hardware to limits will be very very expensive.
Stantron
Member
Can't wait to hear babies crying in the background.
FlutterPuffs
Member
So to some of you saying that MS might be able to catch up to Orbis by stacking etc, can't the Orbis use the same techs too?
Asking since I really have no clue here.
From what I've read over and over, it is a lot for 2013.
Really, it doesn't make sense to me too, but then again I was bought up always thinking that more is better, but techwise, apparently it's a different story.
Asking since I really have no clue here.
From what I've read over and over, it is a lot for 2013.
Really, it doesn't make sense to me too, but then again I was bought up always thinking that more is better, but techwise, apparently it's a different story.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I completely agree everything you said here. As well as the bolded lol.
Yes you were technically polite, but your words still came off a bit strong, and did make it seem like it was a bit more of a controversial statement then it really was. Then it seemed like you got overally defensive.
I want to say I do completely agree with you in that to assume parity in this situation is flawed and incorrect. In laymen terms I think you were just a bit to hard on the poor chap. Trust me lately people on gaf have doing much much worse things when there beloved future console is being speculated as inferior to the competition. Reference the recent FXAA Creator comments on Orbis, Durango thread for some great laughs.
in fact heres a link to one of the best ones, from a normally very level headed poster, that had a meltdown and went to the darkside(the question was who is Timothy Lottes). lol and wow he was banned for the post probably. perma banned I think?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46918410&postcount=19
anyways this the last thing i'll say on the subject, i dont want to derail the discussion any further. sorry if I have already.
Thanks for the link. I'm really liking the sound of this console as well, despite my initial dumbass "omg, it's only 14 now!" reaction.
Brute force was always PC advantage and always will be but problem is that PC has to deal with a lot of things and because of that practical power is much worse than theoretical. And brute force is essentially what most of developers do on PC instead of better coding. That limits a lot power.
We are talking here about playing Borderlands2 with almost same assets with better resolution on hardware that is xx times more powerfull. That is reality of PC gaming now. I expect only after next gen release their consoles to PC devs step up and show what hardware can achieve since they won't need to scale to consoles much.
Much like Agni was running 60 FPS on GTX680. There are no games that even comprable to that and their tech not even Crysis 3 right now. And there is Samaritan which with some optimization came down to one 680.
Samaritan and Agni is what current PC can do if used properly (still with modular PC problems)
You are thinking about Durango and its hard to implement ESRAM causing bad yields. We had zero news that Orbis has any yield problems [and why would it, it doesent have any exotic tech in it and 28nm production is essentially "solved"].
I spent $1400 for 2 gtx680s classifieds which have 4 gddr5 each (8 total)= 4GB gddr5 usable for videogames.
A $400 console with 4GB gddr5 available for game is cutting edge and great value.
VIDEOGAMESYAY
Banned
2.45 TF
edit: actually, come to think of it 1.8 TF is almost exactly the theoretical maximum performance of a GTX 660!
Yeah that is my point. I alone thought that they will go with 2GB GDDR5 4-6 GB DDR3 ram. 4GB GDDR5 is just mindblowing to me. People like big numbers like 8>4 but if i had to choose 2GB GDDR5 + 8GB DDR3 ram or 4GB GDDR5 shared with system ram (considering OS footprint is small) i would choose later any day.
This is much like HDD vs SSD discussion. SSD any day even if it will give me less space.
Next gen games will require fast Ram for those big textures. 68 to 178 is a vast difference.
grimshawish
Banned
Dreamcast VS N64 it is.
Seriously though this is why I've generally ignored the 'their the same' arguments. It hasn't looked like that at any point. Durango's 'secret sauce' will have to be a second console for these to hold up to one another.
paradise_circus
Member
so with the "seperated" CUs there is more power to make things like the dynamic levels in GoW3(the titans) or uncharted 2/3(the train and the floating ships and platforms)?
And for the longest time, i asked for 7850/70 in PS4's APU. That came true.
Sadly, I also wanted dedicated GPU for another 1-2 TF.
I think MS gone WiiU way in what they are trying to achieve. They want kinect build in so not only does it require rumored 2 cores but also much ram. So they really couldn't use only 4 gig like Orbis. Orbis other hand is more conservative pure gaming console.
Interesting part is how developers will threat both consoles.
I think most of the games will look the same on both Orbis and Durango (scaling to lower dominator) but Orbis games will just work better (res, physic, IQ, FPS) and with difference in power we can possibly expect some games on Durango being 30 FPS where Orbis counterpart will be 60FPS.
On other hand developers which will be using hardware without scaling (like Sony devs) will show difference and it will be easily more noticeable than X360/PS3 much like PS2 to Gamecube difference was.
Most interesting part for us will be that both consoles will be probably at the same price range. PS4 will pack more power but Durango will have build in Kinect.
I remember when back in middle 2006 a guy from Starbreeze said you wouldn't be able to tell if a screenshot comes from 360 or a PS3 game, people here said "yes but on PS3 it'll run with twice the framerate!". Nice throwback here.
Same company providing cpu/gpu/apu now though. Still, it's better to suspend judgment a tad.
I'm starting to believe MS's secret sauce will be a $1 billion dollar advertising blitz, money-hatted developers, and a $100 loss per console.
if the rumors are true, they will not look the same. Thats a big IF.
But look at it like running PC game at different settings. Thats what could happen.
Now, will they use 100% of PS4 power like Sony 1st party studios? probably not. At least not right away but they can make it work as their engines are already scalable.
There's nothing in the rumored specs that suggests that Orbis would be able to run Durango 30fps games at 60fps, unless the Durango version was severely crippled.
It is not PS3/X360 difference. If rumors are true Durango have 1.2 Tflop GPU + 100Gflop CPU with part of that reserved for build in Kinect. Orbis from rumors is 1,4 Tflop Gpu + 500Gflop CPU (4 CU). Overall it's 1,3 -Kinect to 1,9. And both systems are very much same design from one producer (AMD) and both of them will have easy access to that power (unlike PS3).
As of 30 vs 60 thing. I don't say for all games because that would be a lie. For "some" games. Most of them probably will pack just better effects, resolution, AA and other things.
Expect something like PS2 to GC if those rumors are correct
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I think thats a bit of a stretch. I think it takes A LOT more power than you think to double the framerate. I would predict we'll see overall higher framerates, definitely better AA and AF, and maybe slightly better shadows and resolution(those are related to bandwidth correct?). Like you said for the most part devs will code to the lowest common denominator with slight alterations here and there. I'm sure it will really come down to what the developers as willing to put time and money into. It always does.
Once again I predict we'll only see the real difference in exclusives...mainly FP exclusives...mainly Sony FP exclusives...mainly games developed by ND, GG, and SSM. lol
In all seriousness, if I had to make a bold prediction, I would say the difference this time around when it comes to FP exclusives, the gap we'll be wider than last time. Mainly because of a combination between Durango's rumored OS overhead and Orbis's rumored overall advantages widening the gap further than it really is. Just like SS fusion Gogeta, Gotrunks, or Vegito. lmao
Still, people fight over less.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Until some developers confirm that the Orbis will actually be easy to develop for i dont think its safe to say that. MS has a track record of making its consoles easy to develop for, Sony not so much.
It wouldn't be a lie, all of it sounds like your wishful thinking, starting with completely silly arithmetic additions of processing power.