Space is at such a premium in cities around the world that they would be reclaimed by us faster than the field returning to nature.
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We Are Subsidizing Rich Suburbanites to Clog Cities With Their Cars
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LegendofJoe
Member
I like driving in the countryside when there's minimal traffic. In cities though or commuting pretty much anywhere? Heck no, self-driving cars can't get here soon enough.
The Albatross
Member
For the ~160m people who don't live in cities in the US, it's often not so much a choice as a necessity (and not just for the people who live there: if you think your public transport is crowded, if tens of millions of people were added to your train line overnight, it would cease to function). And for the ~160m people who live in cities, a large majority of those cities do not have convenient or reliable public transportation. Living in a city can be a privilege, but that doesn't mean you have to be a privileged dick about it. Plus, you might think that a spike in the gasoline price will only hurt wealthy suburbanites, but it hurts those poors more than you think as virtually every good in the country is driven the last mile (or typically every mile) by gasoline powered transport, so the price of milk, eggs, clothes, diapers, and other basic every day needs climbs right along with how much it costs to fill a giant SUV.
yeah, you're right with that. Even just thinking of the area that I work, the amount reserved for parking is something you take for granted or don't think about.
Sunster
Member
but we could be like Singapore and combine nature with development.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Poorly designed cities + tolls + poor public transit / not planning for the future. Like, in Vancouver, the trains are usually packed by the time they reach Scott Road Station (2 off from the first station) at 8:00AM so you may or may not get to be on. There needs to be a bigger focus on improving routes and allowing for more flow. At least we no longer have toll bridges in Vancouver. 
LeroyPantwether
Member
How many miles/km is a five minute drive?
I drive 3 miles to the train station (just looked it up for the distance).
One Eyed Willy
Member
I just choose to not live or work anywhere near a major city whatsoever.
If you think gentrification is bad now, a future with no cars driving into the cities will send property prices into the stratosphere. Suburban culture is the only reason reasonably priced housing exists in the city. If there isn't an amazing solution that transfers people from the suburbs into the cities and back daily there will be a huge increase in housing demand in major cities.
As someone now living outside of metro Boston
I would happily take public transit into Boston if it were not so unreliable.
I would happily move into Boston if the city were at all affordable.
I would happily move into Boston if the public schools were not terrible.
I would happily move into one of Boston's many suburbs if they were not outrageously overpriced.
That being said I now work 100% remote so I don't really drive.
I would happily take public transit into Boston if it were not so unreliable.
I would happily move into Boston if the city were at all affordable.
I would happily move into Boston if the public schools were not terrible.
I would happily move into one of Boston's many suburbs if they were not outrageously overpriced.
That being said I now work 100% remote so I don't really drive.
I blame corporations for the most part. My boss is relatively cool about letting me work from home occasionally, but even he is like "don't make a habit of it". I know a lot of people that either commute downtown or commute into town from SC only to sit at a computer all day. There's zero reason they can't do that from home, apart from management having a stick up their ass about it.
Not only that, but many American cities that pre-date the automobile and were practically similar to their European counterparts were retrofitted for automobiles. Many old neighborhoods were demolished to build highways, which in turn forced cities to spread out and become fragmented.
And of course the neighborhoods demolished were usually the impoverished ones.
This is a Vox video about the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odF4GSX1y3c
The same development happened in Europe too. Maybe to a lesser extent, but it happened. However what has happened in the last few decades is that the political climate has put an emphasis on lessening car usage and making cities more friendly towards pedestrians and mass transit. For exampe my city renewed its general city plan two years ago, its emphasis is on increasing the population density in and around the city centre and curbing suburban sprawl.
People love to complain about the TTC here in Toronto, but compared to most of North America it's an amazing transit system. It has plenty of flaws, and their competent expansion planning is frequently overridden by clueless politicians to get votes, but it functions fairly well.
That said, cars still dominate the city. Any attempt to take any sort of focus off cars in any area is met with rage from suburbanites.
That said, cars still dominate the city. Any attempt to take any sort of focus off cars in any area is met with rage from suburbanites.
My feelings exactly. Driving is okay for me under very specific conditions: no traffic, open terrain. But daily commuting? Pfft, fuck that.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Eyup. I don't even have a car here. It's great
How many people can that service on a daily basis, and how many will it have to if cars are eliminated? Given the traffic that most major cities see on a daily basis I doubt the infrastructure is anywhere near handling that capacity without massive problems. The obvious solution for people of means is to just live in the city.
LeroyPantwether
Member
Do you have kids? I'd love to go car free but as a parent it seems not possible. Granted Phoenixand Tucson have pretty poor mass transit systems.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I work remote from here in KC suburbs, while traveling often to DC/NYC. You might as well be on different planets when it comes to transportation.
In KC you either live downtown (30 min away by car) or you never go unless you work there. There are essentially zero public transportation options for the commuter here, unless you count the random bus line or car pool. But unless you work there, everything is so damn spread out there's never a reason to travel that far. One aside: KC housing is relatively cheap, making it easier to live farther from downtown. I would also point out that outside of newer lofts and some old apartments, living downtown or near downtown is basically a non-starter, or has been until very recently.
Contrast that with DC/NYC. Once there (downtown/manhattan) I am always either on foot, on the metro, or in a taxi or uber. Everything is so central that's easy to go from my hotel, to my HQ/office, to grab a bite and back. It's awesome and I love it.
But why do I work remote? Because living anywhere close to my office HQs is insanely unaffordable, to the point where justifying me living there would make me too expensive for my company. If I spent here what my peers do there, I'd be in a 5+ bedroom, 3500 sq ft near-mansion. There? Sharing a 1-bedroom loft with 3 other dudes.
In KC you either live downtown (30 min away by car) or you never go unless you work there. There are essentially zero public transportation options for the commuter here, unless you count the random bus line or car pool. But unless you work there, everything is so damn spread out there's never a reason to travel that far. One aside: KC housing is relatively cheap, making it easier to live farther from downtown. I would also point out that outside of newer lofts and some old apartments, living downtown or near downtown is basically a non-starter, or has been until very recently.
Contrast that with DC/NYC. Once there (downtown/manhattan) I am always either on foot, on the metro, or in a taxi or uber. Everything is so central that's easy to go from my hotel, to my HQ/office, to grab a bite and back. It's awesome and I love it.
But why do I work remote? Because living anywhere close to my office HQs is insanely unaffordable, to the point where justifying me living there would make me too expensive for my company. If I spent here what my peers do there, I'd be in a 5+ bedroom, 3500 sq ft near-mansion. There? Sharing a 1-bedroom loft with 3 other dudes.
Well considering that Tokyo has around 40 million people, it could easily handle the amount of traffic in any American city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Greater_Tokyo
There is no excuse any major American city couldn't have a massive rail network except for corporate greed, political corruption, and NIMBYism.
David H Wong
Banned
I just like the assumption that anyone who works in the city and commutes from the suburbs is "rich." I mean, if they were rich, they could afford a nice place in the city, right? Most people commute specifically because they can't afford to live where they work. But that wouldn't push the outrage buttons, would it?
Austriacus
Member
Frozenprince
Banned
Kvetches about outrage culture.
Can't be bothered to look past outrage to read article.
Skellig Gra
Member
Eh, I had the thought at first but realistically the majority of lower income people are using public transit to commute in to cities.Or they are heavily carpooling.
My bad, I didn't actually look at the map to see where it was located. Point still stands though because we'd have to be discussing creating that light rail before discussing removing cars from the city. Removing the cars before building it would result in suburbanites quickly displacing people already living in the cities. San Francisco is basically already living that reality.
Obvious we can't just "remove" cars. There needs to be alternatives in place. Tokyo is a massive city and the only reason it works is because it has such a fast and functional rail transit system, if not for that the entire city would be gridlock 24/7.
There is no reason large cities can't substantially invest in light rail and subway infrastructure, it would largely solve issues with suburbs and excessive car culture.
Yes, but the article points out that they are subsidizing rich suburbanites while missing that they are also subsidizing housing in the city being more affordable than it otherwise would be. The article points out that commuters are being subsidized at about $1k a head for a year, but the reduction in housing rental pricing for those living in the city due to these same people commuting instead of living in the city is likely many multiples of that.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
Children under age 11 are free on public transit here. Kids in strollers can be problematic in some spots but I see plenty of parents do it. Umbrella strollers make it easier.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Tokyo is one of the densest cities in the world. A lot of American cities sprawl haphazardly in all directions. The amount of rail that would have to be built would be cost prohibitive. Long commutes make biking or walking impractical as well. Carpooling falls apart when you need any kind of flexibility in travel times or destinations.
I think car automation could provide a practical near term solution, since those cars wouldn't need to be parked on site. And it would lend more flexibility to car pooling.
uncelestial
Member
I don't see how anyone who is aware of portable game systems could have this opinion.
Skellig Gra
Member
The Switch shortages really are out of control.
eBay Huckster
Member
cities also need to go full fuckin' hog on promoting better (and denser) development in order to make it less likely that these systems are going to need to sprawl all over the place
boiled goose
good with gravy
Town or city? Driving in a big city is rarely enjoyable.
King Gilga
Member
Noone who commutes via public transport is fucking energized or refreshed.
Mihos
Gold Member
Busses won't go through the drive through on the way to work..... I asked nicely and everything.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I hate driving in the city. Driving on the Autobahn is chill, except in germany where you get overtaken despite driving +100mph yourself.
Love public transport though. Listening to some nice podcast while playing HS or being on gaf or reading a book.
Love public transport though. Listening to some nice podcast while playing HS or being on gaf or reading a book.
Idk about you, but I sure as fuck feel a lot better being on a train or bus for an hour or more then driving in stop and go traffic.
Energized and refreshed sounds wrong for sure, but I feel a lot less tired or frustrated than driving.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
Why do you need a drive through in a proper dense urban setting? There's like 10 places to get coffee and breakfast between every office building and subway stop. Usually inside the concourses in CBDs
LegendofLex
Member
And your negative impacts are in many ways being subsidised by everyone else who has to breathe in your fumes and live with congestion in their neighbourhoods.
Septimus Prime
Member
Not to mention Bodega machines every 100 feet.
Mihos
Gold Member
Because that mythical scenario you just listed doesn't exist in the Midwest, and screw city living. I did that when I was young, and it sucked.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
But on a bus/subway you can do other things than focus on driving. I don't know why anyone would prefer driving when it basically turns you into a machine operator for the duration and are unable to read/watch anything more stimulating.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
It doesn't exist in the midwest because we've subsidized the automobile to an extent that it discouraged proper urban development. We should stop.
Mihos
Gold Member
Nah, I prefer it this way. I would just live on the outskirts of your planned city.... like we do now
I don't know about the rest of the country, but Chicago has commuter trains going up to 60 miles in each direction. If you want to get downtown, it's absolutely a good idea to drive 10-15 minutes to the nearest station and take the train the rest of the way. It boggles my mind why anyone would drive instead.
Rodney McKay
Member
Yeah, I'm currently working at my favorite job I've ever had, and 90% of why I like it so much is because it's fully work from home (with maybe going into the office to meet with someone once every month or two).
Compared to my previous job where they gave me a DESKTOP computer to work on in the office, and no way to check email remotely, so I had to commute 1-1.5 hours twice a day (worse if I didn't leave early enough and got stuck in traffic).
And before that my bosses had the same hangup about remote work as yours did. "Being in the office is more efficient and you can get help from coworkers more easily." No its not. Sending an IM through Skype gets me what I need just as fast, and if you manage your employees well enough, working from home can be just as productive (if not more because of the lower stress from not commuting every day).