Bullshit, any time there was a slight chance of it blowing over (at the start before GG became it's own self-motivated thing) Gjoni intentionally threw more fuel on the fire to keep things going, and has openly admitted he has more apparent dirt if need be. The reason you don't hear about woman who ignored it isn't because it blew over, but because it got so bad they had to get the hell out of industry and cut ties with just about everyone for fear of their safety.
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WP: "The Internet mobs have won." Zoe Quinn drops legal fight against Eron Gjoni
- Thread starter GillianSeed79
- Start date
Bullshit, any time there was a slight chance of it blowing over (at the start before GG became it's own self-motivated thing) Gjoni intentionally threw more fuel on the fire to keep things going, and has openly admitted he has more apparent dirt if need be. The reason you don't hear about woman who ignored it isn't because it blew over, but because it got so bad they had to get the hell out of industry and cut ties with just about everyone for fear of their safety.
In his own words, he's had blood pressure issues for a while, and being uninvited to the conference is what caused him a great deal of distress.
Ironically, he suffered that stroke shortly after he got a message from the conference's organizers who apologized and invited him back.
d00d3n
Member
This psychological harm that you are talking about is very subjective, though. Real threats should be taken seriously by the police, but I see no reason to create a particular restriction on free speech for people who write "Donald Trump the idiot should be shot", while allowing the statement "Donald Trump is an idiot, he looks like a monkey, and his wife married him for money".
Or do you mean that free speech should be restricted in all cases when people are offended to the point of some subjective standard of harm? Devout religious people seem to be offended, to the point of psychological harm, by a lot of what they hear on the internet. The right of religious people to live a "happy, healthy life", undisturbed by any dissenting ideas, does not trump free speech imo.
"acting correctly" should not be the qualifier a victim of assault and abuse has to do to get their case won in court. unfortunately, thinking expressed as in this quote means they have to do so.
She did (even though she shouldn't have to). Every time the shitstorm died down, Creepron Gjabroni would restoke the fires over at Reddit and elsewhere, leading people on about 'dirt' and asking for a new round of fundraising.
Also, "don't do social media period", hello back there in 1990. The internet is no longer separate from real life. It's vital to work, especially as an indie developer.
Except more and more stores are requiring you give your actual address when selling digital goods.. Google Play is the worst example of this, as they don't even allow you to use PO Boxes anymore. Also, people SHOULDN'T have to hide, that's fucking silly that those victimized are the ones that should carry all the burden of avoiding their attackers, but society tends to tell women to do this all the time, and it's just transferred over to how they are "supposed" to deal with the online version.
I remember that an ex-girlfriend of a guy that allegddely slept with Zoe said that at least in her case, it was true and both him and Zoe cheated, since she was with the guy at the time. Still, i agree with you that even if she did cheat the guy, why people at large care for it? I understand having some empathy for someone after something like that, but that's about it (and even then, having empathy for a guy that issued a bunch of manifestos about it is crazy to me).
Subjective? To who? Someone thinking something is immoral based upon their own set of beliefs is not the same as being harrassed by thousands of people via the Internet and having a breakdown. Don't equate them.
All of those people that were driven to suicide over threats and verbal abuse, just subjective everyone. There's no proof that words can cause mental harm.. except the vast, vast reams of proof that it does!
the first is a threat, the second one is an opinion. This isn't hard.
DannyDanger
Member
What? When?
Now I know ppl jumped to conclusions on unethical things she may have done based on his story, some of that has been debunked
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I like Dawkins a lot, but his stroke being caused by stress due to harassment is complete speculation. How would you even prove this? At his age, strokes are not that uncommon. Not saying the rest of what you said was wrong though, words certainly affect people and harassment is dumb.
Geeze. :/
I think that's a pretty facetious comparison based on what the person said.
It's why this subject is so personal to me every time it comes up.
EDIT: Though to clarify bits, the paranoia came from the stalking, the multiple personalities came from the abuse. My father stalked my family since I was 8 and most of my entire life.
It's my mistake then. I didn't thoroughly read and I've been up all night and probably too late to sleep.
Nuclear Detergent
Member
I think you need to read the thread more carefully...
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
This guy just like the douche that raised drug prices as soon as he bought the company by 72x (?) times both have names from my home country. The shame smh... :'(
I am willing to give some personal experience on what this sort of stuff does to a person. Abuse, physical or mental, is heavily taxing on the mind and body that you can reach breaking points you never thought possible. Especially if there is no end in sight and everything just keeps coming and coming.
EDIT: I can also cite another example outside of just me too. I remember quite a lot.
EDIT: I can also cite another example outside of just me too. I remember quite a lot.
James Scott
Banned
Still surprised these guys are around.
Now they've gone focusing All of their effort on how NOA treehouse ruined Fire Emblem by harassing a voice actor who they thought said that they gave her nothing to work with when that's not what she said.
Spent all day with those guys annoying me on Twitter
Now they've gone focusing All of their effort on how NOA treehouse ruined Fire Emblem by harassing a voice actor who they thought said that they gave her nothing to work with when that's not what she said.
Spent all day with those guys annoying me on Twitter
If you feel like sharing, it would be really insightful to hear your experiences.
For what it's worth - I hope for the best for you and a positive outcome, whatever that may be.
Vlaphor
Member
I was agreeing with you up until the bolded part right there. Now, while I'm not saying that threats are ok, or that sending threats should be legal, I feel that what you're saying is too extreme. Keep in mind that every person you want to deny free speech to, probably wants to do the same to you...but they can't, because of free speech laws. . Again, this is not in defense of threats, but as a wider exploration of this idea I'm seeing more and more of online, where people are trying to find reasons to block free speech to make other people feel better, and that terrifies me. Look at this
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/
This does not make me feel good about the future. Free speech is bigger than you or me and it must be protected at all costs. Once again, let me state that I'm not in favor of threats, and that making threats against someone should be illegal, but I keep seeing these little pockets of people casually mention about why restriction on free speech are a good things and it scares the shit out of me. Freedom of speech wont die overnight, but as the result of a million cuts, so we have to keep it safe.
Also, damn shame about Zoe; and her ex is an asshole.
Funyarinpa
Member
Thanks, been conflicted about this issue for a while and your words clear it up quite a bit for me. Though I disagree that free speech is trumped by the right to happiness, at times it is required that some people feel very disvomforted by what they hear (which isn't the case here). Agreeing with health to the extent that it causes lasting psychological harm.
However, it's nigh impossible to determine an accurate limit for when it steps over the line, so I think the legal line should be drawn at direct threats.
Silent Chief
Member
Is Eron Gjoni a real name?
It's either an anagram or a character from the Star Wars prequels.
Silent Chief
Member
It's hard to imagine Jar Jar Binks as that kind of guy.
This.
People can say all they want, there's no problem with free speech, but they must be responsible for wat they say. If you make a direct threat to someone or provoke it, you can and should have legal problems because of it.
Silent Chief
Member
Someone needs to get Donald Trump in on this.
DONT CROSS THE STREAMS
Yep. I have no issue with this.
No one I know IRL knows about any of the drama from the last couple of years, including people into gaming who don't spend serious time on forums/Reddit/chans/sites like Kotaku/etc. It really is unfair to blame "old people" not being up to speed when really this is all just so insular and confined a subset of the gaming demographic. Knowledge of this among the general public is nonexistent.
Eron is Hebrew, and where we got the name "Aaron" from
Systemic online harassment is hardly isolated to gaming.
Wickerbasket
Member
It could be she thinks that an ongoing legal battle will bring more attention and harassment her way.
It might even worsen if she doesn't win the legal case.
Megatron
Member
Did Eron threaten her?
ClosingADoor
Member
No, but it prevents it from becoming more news and again having people threaten her about it time and time again.
I can totally understand giving up. You are basically one person against a ton of assholes online. They have to just use 1 minute of their time each day to make your life a hell, because you have to deal with all the harassment from everyone.
By not taking it to court any longer, she hopes a bit of the heat will be removed and those people don't have as much to complain about. Basically hoping they have a short attention span and stop when nothing new happens with the case.
If it'll work, I don't know. I still don't get how this issue got so out of control and what people are actually harassing her for. All the stuff about it reads like total conspiracy theories and just all around bullshit of little boys not wanting others to talk about their hobbies.
So many people consider bullying and harassing "free speech"? Are you guys serious? You have never suffered this, haven't you? And you don't have any close friends or relatives either that are victims of this, don't you?
Harassing is horrible. It really affects everyone psychologically. I really wish nobody ever suffer this. Nobody deserves this.
This reminds me of a harassing problem some years ago in little city near the one where I live. A teenagers killed himself because he couldn't stand all the bullying and harassment he was suffering from other kids at his school. That "free speech" of yours sent someone to death. And unfortunately, this is not an outlier, many people have ended with depression for life, and even died because they got harassed.
Free speech has all my support, and harassing is not free speech. I cannot understand how some people defend those who are doing all they can to destroy other people's life.
Harassing is horrible. It really affects everyone psychologically. I really wish nobody ever suffer this. Nobody deserves this.
This reminds me of a harassing problem some years ago in little city near the one where I live. A teenagers killed himself because he couldn't stand all the bullying and harassment he was suffering from other kids at his school. That "free speech" of yours sent someone to death. And unfortunately, this is not an outlier, many people have ended with depression for life, and even died because they got harassed.
Free speech has all my support, and harassing is not free speech. I cannot understand how some people defend those who are doing all they can to destroy other people's life.
ClosingADoor
Member
The effects can be so bad. You are pretty much always on edge. Even if nothing is happening for a bit, you are just waiting for the next incident to come around and start all over again. Can really, really mess up your life and have a major impact - even if it is "only" online.
Outrun
Member
This is what I want to know from those that are following closely?
What crime was he supposed to have commited?
Is the evidence strong enough for the DA to prosecute?
These are not rhetorical questions. If a member that is a lawyer can answer that would be splendid.
Court case is still on as Eron is attempting to set precedent for case law here. While the actual gag order has been dropped, the appeal of the gag order hasnt, and is still active, pending a hearing.
Basically the restraining order that Zoe (and her legal team used on Eron was so wide and all encompassing that it functioned as an unconstitutional gag order. (You are forbidden from talking about the personal life of the plaintiff). Zoe then went on to make statements online and in the press, that Eron legally could not defend himself about or share his version of events as that would violate his gag order.
Eugene Volokh, pretty much the most influential voice on Constitutional Law at the moment, even wrote a friend of the court brief on Eron's side.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...any-further-information-about-the-plaintiff/#
Basically the restraining order that Zoe (and her legal team used on Eron was so wide and all encompassing that it functioned as an unconstitutional gag order. (You are forbidden from talking about the personal life of the plaintiff). Zoe then went on to make statements online and in the press, that Eron legally could not defend himself about or share his version of events as that would violate his gag order.
Eugene Volokh, pretty much the most influential voice on Constitutional Law at the moment, even wrote a friend of the court brief on Eron's side.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...any-further-information-about-the-plaintiff/#
The problem in this case is that many people aren't delivering personal threats. As you stated a personal threat is an email, a phone call, a private message, a letter in the mail.
When you openly declare threats in an open space you are soliciting a threat. And if you do that in the context of a echo chamber lol factory chances are you are expressing out rage in a completely irreverent way to like minded people who won't feel complicit after hearing or reading the threat.
Twitter and Facebook, more so Facebook, are not necessarily built like that anymore. The level of personal conviction goes up when they read threats and you could feel like if you aren't personally engaging a rebuttal or alerting the authorities then you could be complicit.
This is in fact a huge grey area that is actually being considered important. We talked about it at devnexus this year. We talked about systems going more like face book where it isn't a handle anymore but a verified you. There was a large amount of female developers there, an absurd amount actually which was amazing to see, talking about the software development communities and women in IT. What comes of law may be over zealous or par for the course improvements.., who knows in this political climate. But rest assured the ideas and current constructs that failed Zoe Quinn and society in general are being worked on with a spectrum of developers inputs.
Vincent Grayson
Member
The thing is, there's a world of difference between us discussing Trump here, and me saying "Donald Trump is an idiot and should be shot", and me finding his twitter account and then sending *him* a message like "You're an idiot and should be shot". And there's the orders of magnitude difference between one jackass doing that, and hundreds, if not thousands of jackasses doing it, with some of them shifting from "should be shot" to "I'm going to shoot you" or something similar.
Sure but I don't understand the grounds for a criminal charge against him. Maybe a civil suit for libel, but defamation is still tort law, not criminal (to my knowledge). Maybe this is what she means by the law system failing her... but I'm not sure what system she has in mind given the freedoms of the press. It definitely fireballed but I don't recall any definitive calls of action to physically or virtually harass her within the original message. Though it has been a long time since I stepped into that mudhole.
What if you do that on twitter?
Is it still considered private? What if it pops up with a search for someone's name? Etc.
AuthenticM
Member
Are you fucking kidding me, America?
I am so fucking glad I live in Canada. Man.
You seem to be unaware that US law already distinguishes between these things.
Saying someone should be shot is borderline. It's unlikely to be taken seriously by law enforcement unless there's more to it, but it is potentially demanding murder.
The other is a simple insult and nowhere near the law.
Of course you're ignoring what was actually said, which is the equivalent of "I will shoot Donald Trump", which a direct threat. The US legal system is apparently too lacadasical to deal with that sort of direct threat if it's not written on a piece of paper (even phone threats tend to get ignored, let alone internet postings), or directed at some sort of official authority figure (i.e. anyone from a sheriff to a president), in which case the police/FBI/Secret Service/etc. will come down on it like a ton of bricks. Against a private citizen, especially a not-very-rich woman? They don't give a shit.
I think she had Wilmer-Hale representing her in the case. That's better legal representation than probably anybody on GAF could buy.
Xisiqomelir
Member
That is the plaintiff's representation of her substitution of the original charges with Mass General Laws chapter 265 section 43a. Criminal Harassment charges.
Defendant's position is that the legal question remains unconcluded, and oral arguments for the appellate court are still scheduled for March.
Vincent Grayson
Member
That kind of question is a large part of why I don't like Twitter. It feels like it's in a weird space between private in some ways and very public in others.
Either way, I generally feel like there's worthwhile distinctions between harassment targeted at a person, and just general public critiquing of them. IMO, Zoe and many others involved in this whole "GG" thing have received far more of the former than the latter, and I do believe there should be some kind of legal consequences, if not for these people now because the laws aren't there yet, then going forward.
Thank you! I've also recently started counseling/therapy again. Some of my issues I once had have subsided but I still do need help in a lot of other areas and I'm also applying for mental disability. I am hoping for the best and to get better.
---
Just keep in mind that it's all personal and that my experience may be more extreme than others since this went through most of my life and I apologize if some of it feels a little incomprehensible or lacking in flow. I was up all night and these memories are also still tough on me so it may be like a stream of conscience at times? Maybe.
This part is on real life stalking that me and my family went through. My father abused us mentally, physically, emotionally and even sexually. He never went to jail because me and my brother were too young to testify in the court. So for awhile I was also forced to actually spend time with him and I barely remember those moments and probably for obvious reason. I just remember being very, very angry and explosive that I would lift benches and throw them and drag them around despite being so little. Eventually it was ruled that we didn't have to go see him anymore. He gave threats that he would follow us no matter where we go, even if it's not, he had friends that would.
I still remember being awake at nights always being the last to go to bed growing up. I had 3 reasons I would stay up in one house we lived in, sometimes slugs would get into the house at the front door and I thought they were cool and cute, being on guard duty, and hearing things. At the front door where the slugs would come in I would sometimes hear footsteps outside like right on the porch, other times I might hear whispering or talking just outside the house. I was scared to death and remember always carrying around a bat or something to attack with at night. I never felt safe no matter where I was. Super market? A friend of my father's keeping an eye on us. I remember at times where we might rush a bit through the store just to get out of there. I even remember detours on the ride home, hiding with the lights off in a parking lot. We also constantly moved around a lot to get away, and there were times when we might come home to our house or apartment and things are rearranged. Nothing was safe.
At the age of 10 I attempted suicide with a knife to my throat. I have no scarring, It never got to cut and I was put into a basket hold. And I had repeated thoughts throughout my teens.
I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to think, I didn't know how to protect anyone. I was angry, I was scared, I was sad, even all at once. I would get trapped in night terrors and sleep paralysis. I developed some paranoia and ways to keep track of people and I developed better flight responses. I mean, I carried a bat at night but I didn't know how to fight, but I learned to feel things around me and always keep my eyes open like a meerkat on watch looking for a predator. If I knew I was going somewhere large and public I'd shut off all emotion and put it to other areas. I still kinda do that, always being on guard that it's impossible to sneak up on me or scare me because I know you're coming by your footsteps, blocking air current, or blocking noise like the sound of a TV in the background. I used to keep track of every little detail of a person and how they may walk or run.
After awhile all this took its toll on my mom. In hindsight I only now notice it because I was always too worried about myself and my problems and my fears even though I was also wanting to protect others. I was the older brother, I always felt it was my responsibility to protect everyone, you know? But she had diabetes, so all that physical, mental and emotional pain took it's toll on her the hardest. She had break downs, she'd even be quick to anger like me and my brother. We were all in complete dysfunction. She would later fell into a diabetic coma and when she came out she wasn't the person I knew. She suffered brain damage and didn't know how to talk for awhile. I still remember that moment she did though, her first words were "I love you" to both me and my brother and we all started crying not wanting to leave. I can't remember my exact age at that time. I just remember before taking the trip to Witchita Falls to see her in the hospital that day we had a GameCube, so it probably was early to mid-teens maybe.
But you know, she did at least get to escape. She didn't remember any of those bad times, so for the first time she was actually happy. I still do regret not seeing her before she died last year though. I never went to see her as much as I should either. I grew distant and selfish because it was hard to see her so brittle.
In my teens I began to completely shut off. I was in a deep depression that I actually do not have a single photo of me in my teens. I avoided everything, I stayed secluded and paranoid. Though I did attempt to runaway at least a couple of times before being dragged back home in a police car.
The therapy helped some from my childhood and into some of my teens but it wasn't enough. I still couldn't trust or feel safe.
I do remember good news that there was finally some restraining order that he could no longer do this. But even now, how do I even know it stopped? Recently I learned of my grandmas on my father's side stayed in the same nursing home as my mom. How do I know the stalking even ended? I don't know, I probably won't ever know. I may not ever feel that piece of mind.
Being stalked and abused, it's just suffering. Just endless pain and suffering and loneliness cause you never know who to trust or what to do. Law couldn't help us in those darkest hours because we needed more proof that things were happening. My own paranoia even prevented me from maintaining friends then.
I hate my father a lot. I hate every fiber of his being for all that hell. And I don't hate people, I dislike. He is the only person I actively hate more than anyone else in the world.
I have gotten better than what I once was. Things still do linger but I'm actually talking about this like right now, and I'm actually talking to people and making friends online. I do consider online friends to be real friends. I can still talk deeper on all this, much deeper in fact but I think it might be best to leave that for therapy. Some of this even made me tear up a little.
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