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[nowheretorun]

It'll be wired, wireless would be nice if they weren't targeting a seated experience, but they will.

I think if that studio are making a VR mini-game collection, I don't think it would be sports related.

I think the thing that would best demo VR would be some sort of theme park, or magical museum that transports you to places and times to walk around in.

I still think they could do sports related games that you do whilst you sit down.

I'm thinking Table Tennis (ds4 or nav/move), Basket Ball Hoops (ds4 touch pad or nav/move(s)), Football Freekicks (ds4 touch pad) could all be done whilst sitting down.

Here's a quick list which, if I had the time, I'd love to go into more detail/ideas but anyways:-

Tie Fighter Type
(as already mentioned!)

Box Room Squash/Tennis
(think a black room with a glowing ball)

Move Lightsaber
(think either mini game hitting 3D space moving targets with a nav/move whilst sat down)

LBP Sculpture/Create

Minecraft

PS3 Remix
(think all AAA games but small segments from each developer; TLOU, Uncharted, The Fight, GT, Wipeout, Motorstorm, Resistance, Siren)

1st Person Sports/Mini Sports (with or without move/nav or ds4)
- Table Tennis
- Football Freekicks
- Football
- Baseball Batting
- Baseball Thowing
- 10 Pin Bowling
- BasketBall Hoops

On-Rail Lightgun Games

Interactive Story Graphic
- Gone Home

AR Overlays
- Playroom
- Car Windscreen/Helmet Effects
- Mini Games
- Asteroids Type
- Tetris 3D
- Story/Wonder Book

PSN Type Titles (as examples)
- Resogun
- Flower
- Journey
- Unfinished Swan
- Until Dawn

New Gameplay Interaction that goes from one element to the other of AR & TV & VR
- Think changing between actual presence

Alternate Interactions
- Imaginary Cinema
- World Travel Hotels/Sights (Grand Canyon...)
- Google Maps
- Multiple Browser Screens
- Flight Simulators/Tests
- Parachute/Bungee Jumping (can you do this without puking!!!)
- Fairground Rides
- Live Events
(PPV Boxing/Season Tickets/Olympics/Concerts)
- Job Interviews/Conferences
- Fitness Trainer

The more I look at it, the more it seems that its modes other than games which could really attract the non-gamer/casual for the future.

 

[justsomeguy]

Like Chess?

Edit: Unless SCEA R&D somehow managed to make it wireless (which is super unlikely)

The controller battery life is bad enough, imagine a wireless headset ;-)

 

[gofreak]

Pretty sure it's 1.4a. Remember that game company that couldn't do full HD 3D (Trine 2) due to restrictions with the PS4's HDMI output resolution in 3D? If it supported 1.4b, it would be able to do 3D in full HD (frame packing 3D format at 1080p60 per Eye). See http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-trine-2-on-ps4 :

I'm not sure if that's a SDK or hardware issue.

The HDMI LSI shown in PS4 teardowns is 1.4b compliant. Dunno if other parts of the chain are a limiter though.

 

[mitchman]

I believe it's just a software side issue, Trine 2 devs said they could patch when Sony updates for support. A bit like it doesn't play 3D BRDs I guess.

I'm not sure if that's a SDK or hardware issue.

The HDMI LSI shown in PS4 teardowns is 1.4b compliant. Dunno if other parts of the chain are a limiter though.

Sure, the hardware supports 1.4b, but (like on the PS3 before 3D support was added), the software doesn't. I still think it's fair to say that until the software support is there, the PS4 does not support 1.4b. Same way HDMI 2.0 is added via firmware updates on some 2013-model 4k TVs from Sony (and maybe other manufacturers), the only thing needed is to up-clock the HDMI chip as the HDMI 2.0 signal and cables are compatible.

 

[Nzyme32]

I'm not sure if that's a SDK or hardware issue.

The HDMI LSI shown in PS4 teardowns is 1.4b compliant. Dunno if other parts of the chain are a limiter though.

If the PS4 is compliant with hdmi 1.4b, which is 1080p 120hz capable, it is limited to 1080p 60fps per eye. If Abrash is right about low persistence being a problem at 60fps due to strobing being visible, would that mean PS VR would avoid low persistence?

 

[StuBurns]

Sure, the hardware supports 1.4b, but (like on the PS3 before 3D support was added), the software doesn't. I still think it's fair to say that until the software support is there, the PS4 does not support 1.4b. Same way HDMI 2.0 is added via firmware updates on some 2013-model 4k TVs from Sony (and maybe other manufacturers), the only thing needed is to up-clock the HDMI chip as the HDMI 2.0 signal and cables are compatible.

Right, but Durante cared about what it could do theoretically, so that's what I answered.

If the PS4 is compliant with hdmi 1.4b, which is 1080p 120hz capable, it is limited to 1080p 60fps per eye. If Abrash is right about low persistence being a problem at 60fps due to strobing being visible, would that mean PS VR would avoid low persistence?

3D frame-packing is irrelevant for VR, it'll be a single 1080p frame.

 

[Nzyme32]

3D frame-packing is irrelevant for VR, it'll be a single 1080p frame.

Ah cheers

 

[StuBurns]

Ah cheers

Although you raise an interesting point. I wonder if Sony will have a box to process the image. If the PS4 could just output 120Hz, they could do 90fps with 30 blanks and get HDMI directly into the headset, that'd be nice.

EDIT: Actually, you'd probably still get pulldown effects, not sure though.

 

[TTP]

I'm thinking Table Tennis (ds4 or nav/move), Basket Ball Hoops (ds4 touch pad or nav/move(s)), Football Freekicks (ds4 touch pad) could all be done whilst sitting down.

Yeah but would you consider say, a sitting Table Tennis in VR, superior to the current Sports Champions TT with Move + TV?

Besides, armchairs as well as your own legs would severely limit the range of shots you could perform. Not to mention the fact that your virtual persona (or rather his point of view) should be stationary to reflect your real life position to avoid vestibular mistamtch.

No. If they are working on sports sims, they must be confident the player can safely play while standing up. Perhaps the PS4-Headset cable might have some sort of magnetic connector like the Macs MagSafe thing?

 

[StuBurns]

My understanding is fixed single camera tracking is not close to ready for portable VR play.

Although Sony have been prototyping motion tracking using cameras on the headset and tracking fixed positions within the room, a light fitting or whatever. Maybe Sony have more of a technological bomb to drop than I expect, but I still think seated makes the most sense technologically, cost wise, and in terms of game design.

 

[thunder_snail]

I want VR, motion controlled fighting game. The destruction will be hilarious.

 

[gofreak]

My understanding is fixed single camera tracking is not close to ready for portable VR play.

Not portable in the true sense, but for standing up, and movement within a reasonable space, it would be OK I think. Certainly fine for things like VR tennis or whatever.

I think there are other bigger problems. Like if near-zero latency wireless video is expensive or if wireless transmission of tracking data carries its own higher latency.

 

[BloodMoney]

My man!

Aaawwww yiiisssss! 3 more days to Armageddon!

Awwwww yeahhhhhh, Psygnosis in the hezi!

 

[nowheretorun]

Yeah but would you consider say, a sitting Table Tennis in VR, superior to the current Sports Champions TT with Move + TV?

Besides, armchairs as well as your own legs would severely limit the range of shots you could perform. Not to mention the fact that your virtual persona (or rather his point of view) should be stationary to reflect your real life position to avoid vestibular mistamtch.

No. If they are working on sports sims, they must be confident the player can safely play while standing up. Perhaps the PS4-Headset cable might have some sort of magnetic connector like the Macs MagSafe thing?

I don't know. Sitting on the edge of a chair with room in front would still work for me in a VR situation using a nav to move and a simple move controller but I certainly get your point.

 

[plagiarize]

Boy if only there was a chip in the PS4 designed to send low latency video over small distances

at 30 fps at 720p resolution with obvious compression issues. unless you're talking about something other than the thing that remote play uses, that isn't going to remotely cut it.

 

[Fafalada]

Perhaps the PS4-Headset cable might have some sort of magnetic connector like the Macs MagSafe thing?

Why not wireless? HMZ-T3 already is...

at 30 fps at 720p resolution with obvious compression issues. unless you're talking about something other than the thing that remote play uses, that isn't going to remotely cut it.

Current remote play is basically just a port of what PS3 used, it's hardly some hw-solution. But HDMI transmitter dongle is already part of HMZ package, it would make sense to have wireless option, even if it's accessory type.

 

[StuBurns]

Not portable in the true sense, but for standing up, and movement within a reasonable space, it would be OK I think. Certainly fine for things like VR tennis or whatever.

I guess it would be viable, but I don't think it would set a precedent Sony wouldn't want. The seated experience will be the default, because it is about the cohesive experience in VR. As TTP mentioned above, what is the advantage of playing it in VR over a TV if it's not making the most of the VR trappings, which is to convey a sense of real immersion.

I think there are other bigger problems. Like if near-zero latency wireless video is expensive or if wireless transmission of tracking data carries its own higher latency.

Indeed, that's why I said it was a bad fit technologically and cost wise.

 

[nowheretorun]

Why not wireless? HMZ-T3 already is...

I'd have thought cost more than anything assuming they want to market this to the masses.

Who knows, this may not be the focus or they may even have a wired and wireless model?

 

[Fafalada]

I'd have thought cost more than anything assuming they want to market this to the masses.

I'm not sure cost is an actual issue - the internals of lossless wireless solutions seem to be close to WiFi hw, but the market for those devices is limited enough that there's no reason for consumer prices to drop.
And you can use a dongle for simple workaround on both price&market segmentation (ie. the headset is always wired - it's just an optional HDMI plug that can be portable&small as an option).

Although I'm not sure wireless necessarily solves the "safe to use standing-up" issues

 

[gofreak]

Why not wireless? HMZ-T3 already is...


Current remote play is basically just a port of what PS3 used, it's hardly some hw-solution. But HDMI transmitter dongle is already part of HMZ package, it would make sense to have wireless option, even if it's accessory type.

Yeah, remote play works over regular wifi. For this you would want to use the wireless HD standard or something like it. It's a relatively recent thing, and for remote play, Vita wasn't equipped to be able to use that. A HMD could though...if it made sense cost wise, and also in terms of tracking latency?

An accessory is an idea, and it would be a welcome option for convenience/comfort, but it wouldn't broaden game design scope in the way standard wireless could (for 'stand-y-uppy' games etc)

I guess it would be viable, but I don't think it would set a precedent Sony wouldn't want. The seated experience will be the default, because it is about the cohesive experience in VR. As TTP mentioned above, what is the advantage of playing it in VR over a TV if it's not making the most of the VR trappings, which is to convey a sense of real immersion.

I might be wrong but I think TTP was making the argument that - say - tennis in VR while seated might arguably not be superior to tennis with Move against a TV, while standing up. But in VR if you could stand and have a decent range of motion? I think he's arguing that this would be the best case for that kind of game.

We remain with the questions of viability and cost etc. though.

 

[BradleyLove]

I'm not expecting the VR solution to use HDMI. I'd imagine they'd keep the HDMI output for access to the OS, with the game being piped through an alternate connector to a VR breakout box.

I can't see Sony requiring the user to switch HDMI from TV/AVR to headset, and back again.

 

[Man]

If PS4 VR launches in 2014, in the systems first year, I wouldn't be surprised to see a wireless revision three years down the line (in the same time period a PS4 Slim releases). Would be an opportunity to make various other improvements (look & feel etc).

 

[StuBurns]

I might be wrong but I think TTP was making the argument that - say - tennis in VR while seated might arguably not be superior to tennis with Move against a TV, while standing up. But in VR if you could stand and have a decent range of motion? I think he's arguing that this would be the best case for that kind of game.

We remain with the questions of viability and cost etc. though.

I edited that post down significantly, and I think it made it unclear.

We don't really know yet, but I suspect long term VR is going to be about the complete experience. For example with golf, a real VR golfing experience would be a robust physics simulation, but would give the player the freedom to roam the facility, to drive the little cart, to physically pull out golf clubs and examine them, etc.

You could do the traditional thing of just magically having the character appear where the ball is, and all that horrible HUD shit everywhere, but if your experience is that 'gamey', I think you're missing out by using VR, you're just going to lose the image quality of the TV/monitor, and not gain much of a sense of immersion from the addition of VR.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, or it wouldn't be meaningful, but I don't think it's what Sony would like people to associate with VR, because it's not inherently additive to the experience, or even worse, not required for the experience.

The magical museum idea for example, isn't something we've really seen, because it's never been a meaningful experience, but VR's 'magic' is purely in that sense of place, and connection to your environment, so just being somewhere is amazing, and having little 'toys' in those locations to play with I think would be a lot of fun, and very easy to demo at GameStops and the like.

 

[Panda In Space]

I would love a VR rollercoaster ride or grocery shopping.

 

[gofreak]

I edited that post down significantly, and I think it made it unclear.

We don't really know yet, but I suspect long term VR is going to be about the complete experience. For example with golf, a real VR golfing experience would be a robust physics simulation, but would give the player the freedom to roam the facility, to drive the little cart, to physically pull out golf clubs and examine them, etc.

You could do the traditional thing of just magically having the character appear where the ball is, and all that horrible HUD shit everywhere, but if your experience is that 'gamey', I think you're missing out by using VR, you're just going to lose the image quality of the TV/monitor, and not gain much of a sense of immersion from the addition of VR.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, or it wouldn't be meaningful, but I don't think it's what Sony would like people to associate with VR, because it's not inherently additive to the experience, or even worse, not required for the experience.

The magical museum idea for example, isn't something we've really seen, because it's never been a meaningful experience, but VR's 'magic' is purely in that sense of place, and connection to your environment, so just being somewhere is amazing, and having little 'toys' in those locations to play with I think would be a lot of fun, and very easy to demo at GameStops and the like.

Yeah, I agree with that, it is much easier to do seated experiences in a physically immersive way, and that is a key focus.

The applicability to design of 'standing up' and small-scale roaming might be too limited vs its cost to include. But I think you could do some cool things with it.

I guess though what constantly springs to mind with that kind of set up is that with one further tweak or addition, you could open up AR as another design option. I think ultimately, in say a PS5 HMD or in a OR HMD in a couple of years, you'll be looking at wireless HMDs that can serve up immersive VR content or allow 'standing-up'/free-motion AR experiences from one unit. Once you're wireless, the addition of either cameras on the unit OR optically transmissive displays or both would open up the AR space.

But that's a more mature scenario rather than something we can expect in a first iteration. Just a tempting to think you'd be half way toward that '2-in-1' scenario if wireless was feasible

 

[Stampy]

Isn't the wireless VR (meaning freedom of movement) an accident waiting to happen. I mean I had really close calls with Move Table tennis. I wouldn't even want to think what would happen with VR headset on. In that case, they should be selling this thing with extra medical insurance.

 

[StuBurns]

But that's a more mature scenario rather than something we can expect in a first iteration. Just a tempting to think you'd be half way toward that '2-in-1' scenario if wireless was feasible

I'm definitely for it, I want the holodeck, the big room, VR, environmental sound sources, the full haptic suit, the whole nine yards.

I just think it's going to be a really slow process, with conservative steps.

Let's spend the next ten years really getting seated motion based VR to where it needs to be, before we spiral into the grander future of VR.

 

[DieH@rd]

Isn't the wireless VR (meaning freedom of movement) an accident waiting to happen. I mean I had really close calls with Move Table tennis. I wouldn't even want to think what would happen with VR headset on. In that case, they should be selling this thing with extra medical insurance.

Neither Sony or Oculus would want to bother with full freedom of movement. They will both create experiences that are focused on user sitting in a chair.

Larger tracking volume would require more than one camera, or placing camera on headset and tracking markers all around player. Both solutions are impractical for mass adoption, and no one has wireless solution that has low latency or long battery life.

 

[Durante]

Neither Sony or Oculus would want to bother with full freedom of movement. They will both create experiences that are focused on user sitting in a chair.

Larger tracking volume would require more than one camera, or placing camera on headset and tracking markers all around player. Both solutions are impractical for mass adoption, and no one has wireless solution that has low latency or long battery life.

Oculus target purely seated experiences for CV1, but I'd say they don't want to bother with full freedom of movement yet. They have people working on those issues as well.

What I'm really curious about in the VR IO context is the practical latency and accuracy of the STEM when it releases.

 

[Sepp]

Isn't the wireless VR (meaning freedom of movement) an accident waiting to happen. I mean I had really close calls with Move Table tennis. I wouldn't even want to think what would happen with VR headset on. In that case, they should be selling this thing with extra medical insurance.

Not necessarily, you could display the area in your room in which you can safely move around in-game. Of course in a big world such free movement would only be good for turning around, shooting with a gun etc. You'd still need a controller for moving yourself and the area (or an omnidirectional treadmill, but I think those are too big and/or not good enough).

 

[thunder_snail]

Not necessarily, you could display the area in your room in which you can safely move around in-game. Of course in a big world such free movement would only be good for turning around, shooting with a gun etc. You'd still need a controller for moving yourself and the area (or an omnidirectional treadmill, but I think those are too big and/or not good enough).

You could still end up kicking your dog or something.

 

[SonnyBoy]

I think VR would make it cool to watch other people play sports games. If we're allowed to walk the sidelines of a football game, or even sit in the stands. That'd be pretty awesome.

 

[nowheretorun]

I think VR would make it cool to watch other people play sports games. If we're allowed to walk the sidelines of a football game, or even sit in the stands. That'd be pretty awesome.

I imagined actual physical camera stations placed within seating areas so it felt like people actually around you (in the real physical audience) would appear to occasionally glance at you.

Companies (Sony) could pay per the number of these stations with the Promoters of the event taking a cut too.

 

[Sepp]

You could still end up kicking your dog or something.

The solution:

;-)

 

[TTP]

You could still end up kicking your dog or something.

Indeed. And no safety system could avoid that. Heck, people ended up kicking their cats with Kinect even tho they could perfectly see the environemnt.

People understandably tend to assume "VR immersion = total freedom of movement" but that's not going to happen outside of VR arcades specifically build for that.

 

[iceatcs]

I could see wireless VR is possible. They said their wireless HDMI can do 1ms. And head tracking will do over Bluetooth/Camera, same with Move controller technical. I don't see anything cause the problem unless faulty claim about speed on wireless HDMI.

 

[gofreak]

I'm definitely for it, I want the holodeck, the big room, VR, environmental sound sources, the full haptic suit, the whole nine yards.

I just think it's going to be a really slow process, with conservative steps.

Let's spend the next ten years really getting seated motion based VR to where it needs to be, before we spiral into the grander future of VR.

I'm thinking more of AR though, vs 'roam about' VR. Wirelessness would be nice for AR, to be able to walk around things etc. Rolling that functionality with VR into one set would be handy/neat. But may not be feasible for cost/tech reasons.

As for 'roam about' VR, or more limited 'standing up' VR even, there would indeed be new issues around hazard avoidance etc. Sony has issued patents around that, though of course it doesn't necessarily imply that a wireless 'stand-up' vision is in their immediate future.

 

[StuBurns]

As for 'roam about' VR, or more limited 'standing up' VR even, there would indeed be new issues around hazard avoidance etc. Sony has issued patents around that, though of course it doesn't necessarily imply that a wireless 'stand-up' vision is in their immediate future.

Well, when I say the 'seated experience', I really should say the stationary experience.

Let's take Until Dawn as a hypothetical Move/VR game, I'm sure it would be designed so that you do not move from the spot, but I also don't think there would be any technological reason why you couldn't stand still, allowing for a more natural Move use, and a more comparable physical comparison to the simulation.

Sony does need to be careful in terms of encouraging people to move around, it is a PR shitstorm waiting to happen, but as long as they don't specifically advise people to move, and don't make games that encourage it, I'm sure VR will work standing still in front of the PS4 camera.

Personally I imagine I'll play the standing/walking games while standing, and the cockpit games while sitting, more or less.

 

[Dash Kappei]

It took 9 month from reveal to release of ps4.

It's kind of annoying to be so definitive about something that you can't be definitive about. It makes me really hope it happens just to prove that you shouldn't act so sure. You THINK it will happen but you don't KNOW.

The problem is that with PS4 there had been Orbis dev kits around forever, already in the hands of third parties building the next games.

In this case we know only a selected few have even had the chance to try to dabble with the tech, let alone having the SDK.
They won't release it with no support, on the first holiday where they'll still be trying to comply with the demand for the console itself, thy don't even need something like VR to boost sales and even then, again, they'd need support/games/apps.

 

[Jigolo]

I thought I read somewhere that they were going to demo this sometime last year (TGS?) but decided to delay that to polish it up some more.

Am I making this shit up?

 

[StuBurns]

The problem is that with PS4 there had been Orbis dev kits around forever, already in the hands of third parties building the next games.

In this case we know only a selected few have even had the chance to try to dabble with the tech, let alone having the SDK.
They won't release it with no support, on the first holiday where they'll still be trying to comply with the demand for the console itself, thy don't even need something like VR to boost sales and even then, again, they'd need support/games/apps.

And making a PS4 game is a sizable challenge, it takes years in fact.

Implementing VR into a fitting game from scratch takes weeks, and implementing Sony's VR into a game with the Rift VR already implemented probably takes much less than that.

 

[stryke]

I'm curious as to whether Move will be as important to Sony's VR as some make it to be. Watching some of the SoftKinetic (who provided Ubisoft their "iisu" middleware for Just Dance) videos on youtube make 3D tracking with a stereocamera quite impressive.

 

[StuBurns]

I'm curious as to whether Move will be as important to Sony's VR as some make it to be. Watching some of the SoftKinetic (who provided Ubisoft their "iisu" middleware for Just Dance) videos on youtube make 3D tracking with a stereocamera quite impressive.

Even if PS4's camera could accurately track your hand in 3D space, and it can't, it's no substitute for a Move. It has weight, it has buttons, it can provide feedback, it's going to be your magic wand for interacting directly with the VR world.

Obviously there will be plenty of DS4 games, but Move is a much better VR input solution.

 

[Oppo]

Current remote play is basically just a port of what PS3 used, it's hardly some hw-solution. But HDMI transmitter dongle is already part of HMZ package, it would make sense to have wireless option, even if it's accessory type.

That's totally wrong. PS3 was software, PS4 has an H.264 encoder/decoder chip.

They won't use it for this though. It's not that they can't do wireless but the tolerance on the round trip latency is already extremely tight, and you'd have battery weight on the head.

 

[iceatcs]

The problem is that with PS4 there had been Orbis dev kits around forever, already in the hands of third parties building the next games.

In this case we know only a selected few have even had the chance to try to dabble with the tech, let alone having the SDK.
They won't release it with no support, on the first holiday where they'll still be trying to comply with the demand for the console itself, thy don't even need something like VR to boost sales and even then, again, they'd need support/games/apps.

I think Sony just can't do simple a public devkit before announce.
There are number of devs tipping that they are working on new camera feature which could be VR relate, the question is how long they have in hand.
We heard the Sony VR rumours quite long time ago, GDC term? Anyway I expected it won't be massive launch because device is separated and PS never really have long list of launch titles for any devices.

Oculus Rift might doing the same in the future - private devkit, even they already done with crystal cove only available to some studios now.

 

[jett]

I'm not expecting the VR solution to use HDMI. I'd imagine they'd keep the HDMI output for access to the OS, with the game being piped through an alternate connector to a VR breakout box.

I can't see Sony requiring the user to switch HDMI from TV/AVR to headset, and back again.

You bring up an interesting point. It certainly would be extremely annoying and uncomfortable if it had to be connected directly into the PS4's hdmi output. I wonder what will be Sony's solution.

 

[StuBurns]

There needs to be data input from the device itself anyway, and the Move and DS4 don't have the same extension holes, so you can't connect to those, so you need the USB input, and USB3 has lots of bandwidth.

Can the PS4 output the A/V output to the USBs?

 

[iceatcs]

You bring up an interesting point. It certainly would be extremely annoying and uncomfortable if it had to be connected directly into the PS4's hdmi output. I wonder what will be Sony's solution.

Remote play is always running, could use that for second screen, but may not suitable.

Head Tracking - bluetooth.
Display - HDMI or AUX *if there is enough data for camera and display together.
Power - USB or AUX*

 

[stryke]

There needs to be data input from the device itself anyway, and the Move and DS4 don't have the same extension holes, so you can't connect to those, so you need the USB input, and USB3 has lots of bandwidth.

Can the PS4 output the A/V output to the USBs?

It can with audio (that's how the PS branded headphones work). Maybe the same can be done with video.

 

[iceatcs]

Assume AUX is mod USB3.0 which about 400 MB/s
I think it might be enough, but I think it need a computer in the headset to encode for display data via USB (AUX). It might cause the lag problem.

Front must be USB2.0 - 35 MB/s. Dunno if enough.