I would actually expect being cross-gen to be something that makes it easier to hit 60fps on PS4/Xbox One. Since they can only go so far with level geometry / effects / etc to have parity on PS360, the one thing they could do is increase the framerate and/or resolution instead.
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Bungie Explains Why Destiny Is Not 60fps On The PS4 And Xbox One
- Thread starter Lima
- Start date
soul creator
Member
Haha yeah. I'm more just thinking of all the "wtf, this was a last gen game, therefore it should automatically be 60fps!" type of posts while ignoring the dozens of other graphical improvements that would likely be made.
Sorta like what some people are doing in this thread
Rickenslacker
Banned
The game has been in the works for at least four years now, it wasn't a current-gen game that was compromised for last-gen, it was being made with last-gen in mind first and now they can add some bells and whistled for new hardware.
Basically. You get judder as I recall if it's not in sync, though triple buffered v-sync can help (at the expense of some input lag.) G-Sync is meant to fix that, but it's a computer/monitor solution not a console/TV solution.
Yeah, it's more the parity statement has set people off, whether it be more mild like mine or more extreme like saying the last gen version should just be scrapped, ignoring that kind of screws over people that were told they'd see it there nearly two years ago and can't/won't go next-gen just yet.Haha yeah. I'm more just thinking of all the "wtf, this was a last gen game, therefore it should automatically be 60fps!" type of posts while ignoring the dozens of other graphical improvements that would likely be made.
Sorta like what some people are doing in this thread
Still, I definitely can see people expecting 1080p/60fps GTAV even though not only may that be too much to hope for, but for GTAIV it was a task only the most high end PCs at the time could do, and that came out when mid range PCs with Core 2 Duos (likely E8400) and Geforce 8800gt/9800gts were curbstomping the shit out of consoles.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Well, that's how things go with graphics threads in NeoGAF. For some, they prefer 60 FPS and others don't care about 30 FPS as along it stayed locked.
Either way, reading those threads is entertaining, but in the end, these are mostly people discussing to each other and expressing their opinions, so I don't take it too personally.
It's not about whether it's unplayable for those of us who prefer 60fps. But thinking of the benefits a game so well made would reap from targeting (what should be) the standard bothers me a bit.
I mean, just why? Why resign yourself to lock ALL consoles down to 30 when clearly some can manage more than that.
It's still the same game across all consoles, just more enjoyable on others.
Then all the more reason it should 60! It's a last gen game with an extra coat of paint! Isn't that what Tomb Raider was?
Goodacre0081
Member
if Bungie is aiming for both versions to run at 1080/30, what extra bells and whistles could PS4 be getting? surely they're not just going to leave some of that extra juice unused right?
hypotc
Member
True, maybe bungie could cap the game at 40 FPS for The PS4 version though without degrading graphics quality, since it's more powerful?
mysteriousmage09
Member
This is why cross-gen is bullshit.
EventHorizon
Member
I'm no FPS warrior. If they said that they wanted to make the trade off of better visuals for 30 FPS, then that's good enough for me and I'm out of this discussion. However the fact that they felt the need to lie does peak my interest. It makes me wonder if Microsoft is pressuring devs for parity, or at least the appearance parity. In short Bungie lied and gave a BS answer which makes me ask the question...Why?
veloxStrix
Banned
I think it's more about how the eye perceives frame changes.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Didn't that average out at 50fps?
NullPointer
Member
If the PC version offers any insight it could've been a locked 60fps without those hair physics.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Played a lot smoother than Destiny on my PS4.
Seriously, it can't be that hard. People just need to demand it.
Crisp picture fidelity and fluid performance should be standardized this gen.
No more 720/60, 1080/30 shit.
freshVeggie
Member
As far as I know every game can be made 1080 and/or 60fps if the devs set themselves that as a goal. Of course they will have to sacrifice some things; effects, aa, lod, polycount, texture res etc. to achieve it.
From what I have seen on Gamersyde - which are high-bitrate, very good quality videos - Destiny doesn't have the most impressive visuals, despite having a very good lightning system and beautiful artstyle. Its cross-gen restraints are obvious to me. It looks still very nice though.
If I recall right Destiny has been planned as a long-running franchise, with multiple sequels already decided upon. This could mean that every one-two years a full sequel is coming with rather big dlc inbetween. From a marketing standpoint it makes sense to not blow all of their load at once but dribble new features, tech steadily over those planned sequels. So that 60fps is going to be the big bullet-point for one of the future sequels. Artificially holding back stuff is not uncommon in many industries, so it wouldn't surprise me.
But of course it is also likely that Bungie doesn't think 60fps gampelay is needed or worth the extra amount of work. Time will tell whether a future Destiny game will be 60fps. It's mostly only possible to speculate right now. Bungie has proven numerous times they are able to produce very enjoyable titles, so I am sure that Destiny will be a fun game. The impressions of the beta here are proving that.
High framerates do add to a more enjoyable gameplay, especially in first-person-shooters which are fast paced. But previous successful fps with 30fps have shown that the majority of players either don't care or at least that 30fps is not a strong enough deterrent.
In the end I am sure that no matter which framerate the devs decide upon, if the game is fun and enjoyable, all this tech talk won't matter. This goes for Bungie with Destiny as well for RAD with The Order or any other dev. It is sometimes baffling how extreme the hate gets for tech decisions. I am all for discussing tech aspects but when I read some posts in these threads it seems some people can not stay level-tempered. They truly manage to suck the joy of admiring said games and I wish they would change.
From what I have seen on Gamersyde - which are high-bitrate, very good quality videos - Destiny doesn't have the most impressive visuals, despite having a very good lightning system and beautiful artstyle. Its cross-gen restraints are obvious to me. It looks still very nice though.
If I recall right Destiny has been planned as a long-running franchise, with multiple sequels already decided upon. This could mean that every one-two years a full sequel is coming with rather big dlc inbetween. From a marketing standpoint it makes sense to not blow all of their load at once but dribble new features, tech steadily over those planned sequels. So that 60fps is going to be the big bullet-point for one of the future sequels. Artificially holding back stuff is not uncommon in many industries, so it wouldn't surprise me.
But of course it is also likely that Bungie doesn't think 60fps gampelay is needed or worth the extra amount of work. Time will tell whether a future Destiny game will be 60fps. It's mostly only possible to speculate right now. Bungie has proven numerous times they are able to produce very enjoyable titles, so I am sure that Destiny will be a fun game. The impressions of the beta here are proving that.
High framerates do add to a more enjoyable gameplay, especially in first-person-shooters which are fast paced. But previous successful fps with 30fps have shown that the majority of players either don't care or at least that 30fps is not a strong enough deterrent.
In the end I am sure that no matter which framerate the devs decide upon, if the game is fun and enjoyable, all this tech talk won't matter. This goes for Bungie with Destiny as well for RAD with The Order or any other dev. It is sometimes baffling how extreme the hate gets for tech decisions. I am all for discussing tech aspects but when I read some posts in these threads it seems some people can not stay level-tempered. They truly manage to suck the joy of admiring said games and I wish they would change.
stargateheaven
Member
Ground zeroes last gen - 30fps
Ground zeroes this gen - 60fps
dont understand why you need parity between gens..
veloxStrix
Banned
Vaguely off topic:
I think a lot of people are also misjudging the budget for Destiny. 500M is the total expected cost, for ten years of Destiny and marketing. In the frame, it doesn't seem so massive an expenditure.
I think a lot of people are also misjudging the budget for Destiny. 500M is the total expected cost, for ten years of Destiny and marketing. In the frame, it doesn't seem so massive an expenditure.
Goodacre0081
Member
I can see the need for 30fps in the open areas of this game but what not allow 60fps for Crucible ?
Hockeymac18
Member
Yes, generally developers aim for 30fps or 60fps due to the refresh rate of most modern TVs (which is often 60). It's usually why if a game can't run at 60 fps for whatever reason (or isn't able to run smoothly at 60 fps consistently), they'll drop it down to 30 and lock it there. You don't see games locked at 40, 50, or anything between 30-60 fps because it causes issues with syncing up with the TV's refresh rate. It's another reason I don't really like "unlocked" framerate (not just because of the judder and speed up/speed down). Here's more info from a recent Polygon article:
Polygon said:
That doesn't make sense, though! The scale, as you call it, of gameplay can be "delivered" the way they want it regardless of looks or framerate, framerate only serves to make it better, while visuals don't affect gameplay at all. They are completely different things and are separate. Not only that, visual fidelity can and should be sacrificed for the sake of quality of gameplay. The "scale" of gameplay (a term that is completely nonsensical in the first place) is only one notch of the various aspects that makes the gameplay experience what it is, and 60 fps is extremely beneficial to that experience.
They don't HAVE to go for the best looking game at the highest framerate, they are specifically choosing to do so at the expense of framerate. During the 360/PS3 era, Destiny at 60 fps would certainly be an impossibility, however, we are on next gen now. They have the option and power to "deliver" the "scale" of the gameplay, and game itself, that they want to. Especially since this is cross gen, but they are clearly opting not to. You can't tell me an industry veteran such as Bungie, who has scores of highly experienced and intelligent programmers, could not have made this game 60 fps if they so desired. Keep in mind that Bungie hasn't made a 60 fps console game in over 13 years, but it was due to technical limitations, something they aren't dealing with this time around! 60 fps is not an impossibility! Allow me to give an example. Look at Battlefield 4: running at 60 fps on both next gen consoles with 64 player battles with copious amounts of action, destruction, and events on massive maps with humongous scale, both in terms of gameplay and size. The game benefits greatly at 60 fps and 60 fps only serves to enhance the quality and fluidity of the gameplay featured in most games. Not only that, the graphical fidelity is leaps and bounds ahead of its last generation counterparts. It is a cross generation game done right.
The only way I can make sense of the whole situation is that they are intentionally gimping the framerate of the next gen consoles either so they can push for better visuals in a game that would likely look very similar at 60 fps, because the art style will shine through regardless of how insanely high resolution the textures are or how many particles are on screen at once or they are going for parity. So, again, (gameplay) experience is genuinely dependent on decent technical performance, and benefits from above average technical performance. Plus there really isn't such a thing as "scale" in terms of gameplay in Destiny that other games haven't done before. Parity is a stupid reason to be doing all this if it is the true reason behind all of it.
Regardless of all this, I am still extremely enthusiastic about Destiny and look forward to playing it. The game looks absolutely beautiful and the resolution and graphical fidelity at which it's at now is just stunning. Bungie is one of my favorite developers, likely as much as they are obviously one of yours, Dax, and I'm excited to see where they take us. I can live with 30 fps because I am used to it, and while I certainly believe 30 fps is more than playable, it frustrates me to see people doubting the extremely advantageous and beneficial impact that 60 fps can have on games, especially shooters. It isn't a big deal to me, truly, and I really don't know why I typed all this up. I'm pretty lazy, it's all poorly written, I'm not an intelligent person at all when it comes to these things, and it will be picked apart in minutes, but 60 fps is pretty damn awesome.
DaleinCalgary
Member
I won't support their choice with my money.
Interficium
Banned
And there it is. Everyone drink.
Drink twice since he invoked both lazy devs and greedy devs in the same post.
I doubt Bungie will lose sleep over someone not giving them their money. ._.
veloxStrix
Banned
Rickenslacker
Banned
Wouldn't be next-gen enough without 'em though.
Definitive Edition was locked to 30 on XBO and still had dips right? PS4 ran unlocked but still wasn't consistently hitting 60. From what I'm hearing, Destiny drops from 30 in more populated areas? It seems more likely that the parity is within gen brackets, instead of this weird idea that it's to maintain parity with last-gen constraints.
I think a lot of people here have severe PR-Fatigue. We've had more bullshit than ever spewed at us from the entire Games Industry in the last year or two than we've ever had before. It's fucking tiring and I and I imagine others are quite sick of it. This is just one more thing in a long line of bullshit that has worn out its welcome.
veloxStrix
Banned
Wouldn't be next-gen enough without 'em though.
Definitive Edition was locked to 30 on XBO and still had dips right? PS4 ran unlocked but still wasn't consistently hitting 60. From what I'm hearing, Destiny drops from 30 in more populated areas? It seems more likely that the parity is within gen brackets, instead of this weird idea that it's to maintain parity with last-gen constraints.
No? Digital Foundry did an analysis, and it stayed locked at a steady 30FPS ignoring acceptable variation (Less than 1FPS up or down) throughout the whole video).
And here it is!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
This industry is full of nothing but lazy greedy devs and sneak fuck journalists who also happen to be on the take somehow.
Let it burn!
It's gonna have 3 more games every 2 years. That's not what I call updating a game for years.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Orthogonal
Member
Digital foundry had an article on it saying that it can remain locked at thirty but will sometimes repeat the same frame 2 or 3 times in order to achieve it giving a visual judder. I don't recall the whole context if this was intentional, bug or other.
RedAssedApe
Banned
they should try and get the crucible to be 60fps.
i'm ok with the co-op being 30 as long as it looks good.
i'm ok with the co-op being 30 as long as it looks good.
If we only could. This is a great time to notice the balance between cross gen platforms. It's delicate. This is so sad but an absolute fact.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Making every port identical as they can in performance so that all version will be identical.
Xbox 360 wins again!
Ground zeroes last gen - 30fps
Ground zeroes this gen - 60fps
dont understand why you need parity between gens..
Bungie not as talented to do that?
The silver lining here is hopefully that the last gen versions have received the proper attention, and people buying them won't get something unplayable for their sixty dollars.
We might think it's scummy for a developer to hold back current gen versions in favor for old consoles, but I think it's equally scummy to release a shitty full priced down-port of a game, never meant run on old hardware, just to ensure a bigger consumer-base.
I remember trying out Far Cry 3 on a friends 360, and that version was absolutely atrocious. No one should accept something like that for a full price release. If a developer can't get their game to work acceptable on older hardware they shouldn't release it; it's on them to reach a rough parity with other similar games on that console.
We might think it's scummy for a developer to hold back current gen versions in favor for old consoles, but I think it's equally scummy to release a shitty full priced down-port of a game, never meant run on old hardware, just to ensure a bigger consumer-base.
I remember trying out Far Cry 3 on a friends 360, and that version was absolutely atrocious. No one should accept something like that for a full price release. If a developer can't get their game to work acceptable on older hardware they shouldn't release it; it's on them to reach a rough parity with other similar games on that console.
TemplaerDude
Member
And everyone on GAF is expecting developers and publishers to accept significantly less potential return on their big investment games by releasing to a market as small as the next gen one is now as opposed to both new and old consoles. Money is what makes this industry go round like any other and expecting a business like Activision to drop whatever crazy amount it is on Destiny and release to anything other than the most amount of people possible is crazy.
This whole "cross-gen is holding our consoles back!" conversation that has spread ridiculously fast across this forum is a huge part of the reason why early adopters annoy me. As vital as they are to this industry and a huge part in any consoles success, so many of them display this entitled attitude as if saying "Nope, that's it, last generation is now over, I have my shiny new console, nothing else exists!" The sad fact is that money makes this world go round and the video game industry is beholden to that fact the same as any other. Does it suck? Yeah, sure, I'd love to see these consoles pushed and focused on from the get go, and you'll see games that do that but the big money titles are going to have to wait. I feel like we should all know this by now, I feel like I saw these same conversations at the beginning of the previous generation. You just have to come to grips with the world we live in and be patient.
It's a valid "conversation" to have. The 7th generation was way the fuck too long and the extreme limitations on those systems have held games back quite a bit. We've been ready for it to be over and done with for years now and we want to move the fuck on. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to be shackled to that lumbering old behemoth at this point. If we were transitioning off a 5 year generation I'd be more sympathetic to people still waiting to transition, but it's been 8+ years and it's way past the time to let shit die. It's hard to be patient when we've waited so damned long.
CybernatonEvolution
Member
Translation:
Most of the game's budget went to marketing and design; we couldn't care less about performance and those nitpick-y nerds. From a marketing prospective, graphics sell more, so we will optimize the game to look as good as possibly while we target sub 20 average FPS.
Most of the game's budget went to marketing and design; we couldn't care less about performance and those nitpick-y nerds. From a marketing prospective, graphics sell more, so we will optimize the game to look as good as possibly while we target sub 20 average FPS.
TemplaerDude
Member
Everyone may be tired but until the user base is at a point where the numbers make sense for the title, it'll remain a pointless "conversation" to have.
boubongaffer
Banned
destiny on last gen consoles? okay..................
none of these poors will find a reason to upgrade if your still making barely functional games on last gen. please stop catering to the bottom of the barrel.
you have a product. it should be experienced in a certain way. it should be on next gen consoles and PC. wave that red towel at the bull. the bull will charge, every fukking time.
post over.
none of these poors will find a reason to upgrade if your still making barely functional games on last gen. please stop catering to the bottom of the barrel.
you have a product. it should be experienced in a certain way. it should be on next gen consoles and PC. wave that red towel at the bull. the bull will charge, every fukking time.
post over.