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Female gamers, devs discuss Bayonetta's portrayal of women in games

Jackpot

Banned
#ItsAllInTheContext

bayonetta-xbox-360-197.jpg

B0wQ4wbCQAAdhk0.jpg:large


Quick, somebody do the Hawkeye test, I'm still not sure.

If I wanted to paint a woman standing completely naked with the most absurdly sized breasts it would be my right to do so,

No one's arguing that it's illegal, and if that's all you have left to argue it doesn't bode well.
 

Shengar

Member
Oh absolutely! Bayonetta is an amazing example of what a sexually confident, aggressive female character might look like, but even if she's "better" than sexualized characters without justifying characterization I wouldn't want every female protagonist to be like her, and I would roll my eyes as well if every female character had to have their blatant sexuality as part of their character

Does anyone who think Bayonetta as a good character dogmatized that every female character should be like her? Heck, anyone who have that line of thinking wouldn't do no good. Every type of female character archetype could be good with proper, well written context behind them. If anyone tries to reduce good character to just one archetype, that's problematic.
 

Nerokis

Member
#ItsAllInTheContext
...
Quick, somebody do the Hawkeye test, I'm still not sure.

No one's arguing that it's illegal, and if that's all you have left to argue it doesn't bode well.

On the other hand, posting a couple pictures with no further context or actual argument somehow bodes extremely well.
 
#ItsAllInTheContext

bayonetta-xbox-360-197.jpg

B0wQ4wbCQAAdhk0.jpg:large


Quick, somebody do the Hawkeye test, I'm still not sure.



No one's arguing that it's illegal, and if that's all you have left to argue it doesn't bode well.

Unless you think male and female sexuality is the same, this post is stupid.

Actually, if you do, it's still stupid.

The idea isn't how she's posing, it's whether or not that's deleterious to women. It's whether her display of her sexuality is harmful.

Hawkeye test? Doesn't even make sense as you're trying to apply it.
 
Emily gitelman, comes across as a total nutjob and I imagine is a real pleasure to be around. She would probably prefer it if bayonetta was a shy fat woman wearing a sack.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
#ItsAllInTheContext

bayonetta-xbox-360-197.jpg

B0wQ4wbCQAAdhk0.jpg:large


Quick, somebody do the Hawkeye test, I'm still not sure.



No one's arguing that it's illegal, and if that's all you have left to argue it doesn't bode well.

Thanks for moving the discussion back to roughly 5 years ago. Reducing a woman to her appearance sure is a great way to combat the apparent superficiality female video game characters are treated with. Posting promotional art everyone has seen before while not bringing up any kind of argument whatsoever as to how and why a woman's body is a bad thing that should be hidden sure is a great contribution to the thread.
 

Clockwork5

Member
oh well then, sexism averted if she's only nearly-naked.



"you're playing it wrong" is not a valid defense against whether a character design is sexist or not. You might want to check the reveal previews for Bayonetta (and the corresponding GAF thread) to see how the "clothes come off the more powerful your attacks are" point was pushed. Sounds like you're just desperate to deflect.

Just curious. How would you personally differentiate between "sexual" and "sexist"?
 

Clefargle

Member
Emily gitelman, comes across as a total nutjob and I imagine is a real pleasure to be around. She would probably prefer it if bayonetta was a shy fat woman wearing a sack.

Yeah, her extreme bias is evident the moment she answers regarding Bayo's female designer. Her response is soooooo reactionary and not calm or measured like the rest of them. It really reads like she has a chip on her shoulder and is coming from an emotional angle instead of one of reason.
 

Jackpot

Banned
On the other hand, posting a couple pictures with no further context or actual argument somehow bodes extremely well.

You realise the #ItsAllInTheContext hashtag was mocking you, right? It looks even worse when you play it straight.

Thanks for moving the discussion back to roughly 5 years ago. Reducing a woman to her appearance sure is a great way to combat the apparent superficiality female video game characters are treated with.

totes, I'm the one degrading women here. Bayonetta is so complex. Every wrinkle in her camel toe tells a story.

Posting promotional art everyone has seen before while not bringing up any kind of argument whatsoever as to how and why a woman's body is a bad thing that should be hidden sure is a great contribution to the thread.

You got us, we just hate sex so darn much. Why it's empowering when a caricature of a woman designed by a male-dominated industry for its male-dominated customer demographic thrusts her crotch at the camera! Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, they're the new feminists.

Seriously, not every game has to try and redress the imbalances of society, and shallow vapid games can be great to play. But that doesn't mean you have to employ mental gymnastics in order to pretend Bayonetta isn't a perfect representation of the sexualisation of female characters. What's next? Sailor Moon?
 

Nerokis

Member
Disagreeing with her is fine, but was that really necessary? What a dickish thing to say.

Agreed. There's no need to insult her over finding Bayonetta problematic and jarring. She happens to be absorbed in feminist issues, but I would wager a good majority of people would have the same initial reaction. No "nuttiness" required.

You realise the #ItsAllInTheContext hashtag was mocking you, right? It looks even worse when you play it straight.

What?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Yeah, her extreme bias is evident the moment she answers regarding Bayo's female designer. Her response is soooooo reactionary and not calm or measured like the rest of them. It really reads like she has a chip on her shoulder and is coming from an emotional angle instead of one of reason.
She's totes hysterical, yeah. Ladyfolk and their hormones, amirite boys
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
You got us, we just hate sex so darn much. Why it's empowering when a caricature of a woman designed by a male-dominated industry for its male-dominated customer demographic thrusts her crotch at the camera! Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, they're the new feminists.

Seriously, not every game has to try and redress the imbalances of society, and shallow vapid games can be great to play. But that doesn't mean you have to employ mental gymnastics in order to pretend Bayonetta isn't a perfect representation of the sexualisation of female characters. What's next? Sailor Moon?

So when the context of the game's production helps your argument (presumptions about the producers and consumers) it's fine to bring the context into the discussion, but opposing views get ridiculed for doing so?

Also you're disregarding the entirely valid viewpoint of sex positive feminists who would indeed argue that being in control of one's own sexuality is empowering. Something Bayonetta is within kayfabe of her virtual world. If you want to bring details of the production into this argument then fine, but keep in mind we've had that discussion already when the fact Bayonetta's designer is female was brought up and concluded that a creator's gender is irrelevant to the end product (as it should be.)
 
She's totes hysterical, yeah. Ladyfolk and their hormones, amirite boys

As opposed to 'boys and their hormones' considering the discussion?

No, enough of that nonsense. People who think that 'all women are alike' are no different to those who think that 'all men are alike'. That stuff needs to be left at the door.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
As opposed to 'boys and their hormones' considering the discussion?

No, enough of that nonsense. People who think that 'all women are alike' are no different to those who think that 'all men are alike'. That stuff needs to be left at the door.
I think you need to recalibrate your sarcasm detector, friend. ^^
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I always fin it interesting to compare bayonetta and the reaction to her character and Dante, since they're both designed in very similar manners especially young Dante. Here you a white a haired pretty boy who is and has to show off his abs at as much as possible (in 3 at least). Now white haired pretty boys is well known trope in Japan that is known to appeal to Japanese female demographic within both anime/manga and games (it's about as cliché as it comes to female pandering), it's why Raiden is designed the way he is. It's no surprise that Dante has a fairly significant female fanbase, nor Vergil for that matter.

There was no doubt Dante was designed with that to be as appealing as possible to females in his own crazy, why similar to how sex is very much a part of Bayonetta's hile being equally crazy, Similarly you notice Dantes rock star aura as well as Bayonetta's model-esk design both very "glamour" characters.

Now their both obvious power fantasies it's the whole point of game to do things and look awesome while doing it. now it's a question of much is each character a power fantasy for each gender and why one design receives much more backlash than the other. Now obviously we must pre-face this by the fact Bayonetta exists in a totally different environment with so little female main characters and even less well developed and much more objectionable characterisation of females in this media in gender she naturally is under far more scrutiny. So it really and fairly importantly comes down whether someone considers Bayonetta to be a female power fantasy (Dante obviously is otherwise he wouldn't be as popular amongst male players) or not because obviously if you think she's not the question becomes why is she not and where can potentially misgony rears it ugly head.

Now I have not played Bayonetta 2 but Bayonetta 1 was very much designed as a romantic comedy, with a bat shit insane plot, but a romantic comedy none the less. It didn't just attempt to pander to males, the success of this is up for debate but the intent was there. So I'm interested in knowing whether this is true for the sequel.
 

Danji

Member
Her response is soooooo reactionary and not calm or measured like the rest of them. It really reads like she has a chip on her shoulder and is coming from an emotional angle instead of one of reason.

She's totes hysterical, yeah. Ladyfolk and their hormones, amirite boys

Just dropped in to say that my girlfriend read the OP and walked away with the same impression. She elaborated more on where she thought it stemmed from but of course that's conjecture.
 
I find Bayonetta sexy. Very much so. It's because, as has been mentioned, she makes every man look like a fucking chump. That raw display of power, the sheer disinterest in how others want her to act or be, the way she treats angels, demons, gods and men as complete non-factors in her own agency. That turns me way the fuck on.

So does that make her sexist? She displays typical dominatrix traits that men like myself enjoy. Yet those traits are celebrated because women are the dominant force in the relationship. Female led/female empowered/lifestyle femdom and what have you.

She celebrates her sexuality, flaunts it and rubs it in mens faces because they can never have it. My current partner does the same. It's ego, power and sexuality at its rawest.

I think it's tough to say. Bayonetta has still had that sexual role bestowed upon her, as all videogame and fictional characters have by their nature. But , if you forced me to have an opinion, she's the type of female role model I'd like my own children to have. She's confident, happy and unashamed.
 

Teremap

Banned
Thanks for moving the discussion back to roughly 5 years ago. Reducing a woman to her appearance sure is a great way to combat the apparent superficiality female video game characters are treated with. Posting promotional art everyone has seen before while not bringing up any kind of argument whatsoever as to how and why a woman's body is a bad thing that should be hidden sure is a great contribution to the thread.
futuramas00e01001sqlqd.gif
 
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No one's arguing that it's illegal, and if that's all you have left to argue it doesn't bode well.

The Hawkeye and Bacchel test do a wonderful job of sounding scientifc, being nice and buzzwordy and actually doing fuck all for discussion. They're a great tool for finding the genuine shit but for actual discussion and nuance they are goddamn useless.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The funny part about that one original piece of Bayonetta promotional art is that it highlights the character's purposefully outrageous proportions that freak male players out and turn them off from feeling presumed typical hot flashes for an attractive female.

The image is not a simple win button for proving Bayonetta starts and stops at being a sex object for horny young men to get off on. If anything it reinforces that Bayonetta is designed to frustrate typical expectations.
 

soy.

Banned
Emily Gitelman: I think the female characters in Bayonetta are presented incredibly poorly, and certainly over sexualized. They're a male fantasy, completely. I'm going to focus on Bayonetta herself. To start with her physical appearance, Bayonetta is built like a super model, has a sexy English accent, and walks around in a skin-tight catsuit that disappears and basically gives her censor bars when she casts spells. It's practically a reward for the player: use a powerful attack; see a naked woman. As soon as Bayonetta displays power, she is stripped of her clothing and her dignity. When her health runs too low, her catsuit also disappears. The symbolism (lip marks, flowers, butterflies) used in her attacks is very stereotypically feminine in a way that box female sexuality into a narrow category. These are calculated ways of making her seem like a Strong Female Character, but they actually undercut her agency and power as the lead character of a franchise.

It's insulting to think that Bayonetta could be viewed as a positive, empowering character because she is plainly a sex object. When Hideki Kamiya, the director of Bayonetta, and Yusuke Hashimoto, one of the producers on the project, were making the interview rounds, they said really sexist things about women. In an interview with 1UP, Hashimoto said that Bayonetta couldn't be over sexualized because she didn't have large breasts (which is obviously not the only facet of over sexualization). In the same article, he said that Bayonetta isn't "all about showing skin," but she's constantly on display as a sex object because of her tight outfit, posture, and husky voice.

Basically, the men in charge of how Bayonetta is portrayed have made their opinions about how women should look and dress and be visually appealing to themselves and other men make it entirely obvious that Bayonetta is treated as a sex object. Because of that, I definitely don't find Bayonetta to be empowering. In fact, she is the opposite.
reading this, i'm feeling that every game characters should be a fat, sweaty, uninteresting people with no sense of fashion at all.

no visual reward for gamers when u do something awesome in-game; no massive spectacular guardian force summons. no somersault kicks, no cartwheel, no flips or awesome attacking movements, a fat dante wearing smelly undershirt should just uninterestingly shotgun his way all the way to the end of 3 games -that sure would have made devil may cry as huge as it is now.

oh, and dante shouldn't be as manly as he is. probably he should show some of his feminine side. as well as squall leonhart, rikimaru of the azuma ninja clan, kratos of sparta, all the manliest of men should act like a cute little girl once in a while. symbolism is bad thing, kids. bad.

===============

games are made to be fun; quoting shigeru miyamoto: "they are supposed to be fun, to be silly, as if we are entertainers".
if she want to make every games to be realistic, to carry the weight of every social issue or gender equality messages, then i don't want to be live in her world.
bayonetta are entertainer. if miley cyrus or nicky minaj could live with what they've did on behalf of entertaining people, then we all should forgive bayonetta because what she did are nothing as undignified as what our real world celebrity are doing.

games should continue to be crazy over the top, to be amazingly bizarre in good ways, incredibly wacky and hilariously fun, entertaining for all of us.

dante should stay disgustingly cool and manly, bayonetta should stay outrageously sexy and daring, they both should keep blazing through hordes of devils and angels with out of this world style and incredible effortless flair viewtifully (pun intended) with whatever dance / cool they could unleash.
 
reading this, i'm feeling that every game characters should be a fat, sweaty, uninteresting people with no sense of fashion at all.

no visual reward for gamers when u do something awesome in-game; no massive spectacular guardian force summons. no somersault kicks, no cartwheel, no flips or awesome attacking movements, a fat dante wearing smelly undershirt should just uninterestingly shotgun his way all the way to the end of 3 games -that sure would have made devil may cry as huge as it is now.

oh, and dante shouldn't be as manly as he is. probably he should show some of his feminine side. as well as squall leonhart, rikimaru of the azuma ninja clan, kratos of sparta, all the manliest of men should act like a cute little girl once in a while. symbolism is bad thing, kids. bad.

===============

games are made to be fun; quoting shigeru miyamoto: "they are supposed to be fun, to be silly, as if we are entertainers".
if she want to make every games to be realistic, to carry the weight of every social issue or gender equality messages, then i don't want to be live in her world.
bayonetta are entertainer. if miley cyrus or nicky minaj could live with what they've did on behalf of entertaining people, then we all should forgive bayonetta because what she did are nothing as undignified as what our real world celebrity are doing.

games should continue to be crazy over the top, to be amazingly bizarre in good ways, incredibly wacky and hilariously fun, entertaining for all of us.

dante should stay disgustingly cool and manly, bayonetta should stay outrageously sexy and daring, they both should keep blazing through hordes of devils and angels with out of this world style and incredible effortless flair viewtifully (pun intended) with whatever dance / cool they could unleash.

all of these shoulds.... and not a second to spare for who's being primarily entertained (or "serviced")

:>

as for myself, i already said this in a few other threads. bayonetta's character design doesnt bother me. even her nakedness is okay.

its just that her proportions are ugly to my aesthetic preferences. i dont like those legs, at all.

another thing i didnt like was her story line as a 'mother figure'. it just felt trite. idk~
 

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member
Emily gitelman, comes across as a total nutjob and I imagine is a real pleasure to be around. She would probably prefer it if bayonetta was a shy fat woman wearing a sack.

If that was actually her opinion then so what? Different strokes.

Thanks for sharing, OP. That was a great read. Makes me want to replay the original :D
 

Clefargle

Member
She's totes hysterical, yeah. Ladyfolk and their hormones, amirite boys

Where did I imply hysteria? Are you suggesting it is impossible for any woman to have an unreasonable argument on any of these topics? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but telling me I can't criticize hers without being sexist is nonsense. I agree with many of the female opinions in the OP, just not this one.
 

Doorman

Member
reading this, i'm feeling that every game characters should be a fat, sweaty, uninteresting people with no sense of fashion at all.

no visual reward for gamers when u do something awesome in-game; no massive spectacular guardian force summons. no somersault kicks, no cartwheel, no flips or awesome attacking movements, a fat dante wearing smelly undershirt should just uninterestingly shotgun his way all the way to the end of 3 games -that sure would have made devil may cry as huge as it is now.

oh, and dante shouldn't be as manly as he is. probably he should show some of his feminine side. as well as squall leonhart, rikimaru of the azuma ninja clan, kratos of sparta, all the manliest of men should act like a cute little girl once in a while. symbolism is bad thing, kids. bad.

I partly agree with the second half of your post, but I think you missed the boat on this. The awesome summons and flips and animations aren't at all what Emily was talking about in her criticism, because all of that stuff is barely related to the point of the conversation.

Why should seeing Bayonetta lose her clothing be a "reward" for completing long combos? What purpose does it actually serve? Is there a valid reason outside of being a pretty obvious appeal to men (or females who are attracted to females for that matter)? Taken at face value, when you're getting to that point then Bayonetta does boil down to the same issues that many other female game characters run across; using digital sex as a prized object for the (presumably male) player to strive for. Within the context of the game's setting and storyline, there's no real point for it, so in that way the criticism of Bayonetta is absolutely valid.

...But with that being said, I largely disagree with Emily and those on the anti-Bayonetta side when it comes to the overall package being presented. The whole hair-clothing thing is really the only aspect of Bayonetta's character that I personally dislike, because the potential rationale for it is so paper-thin and unnecessary. Why does Bayo disregard clothing in favor of her magical hair? It's not a requirement of Umbran witches, so outside of a completely nonsensical exhibitionist streak (which is only displayed toward enemies that she otherwise shows a complete disregard for), that choice exists not as an empowering factor of the character, but for the audience's enjoyment. Her other choices and actions, the stripper-pole fighting, crazy posing, dismissive attitude towards men, etc, all work very well for the character and fit into the over-the-top nature of the world.

What I really find kind of strange about this entire debate is this apparent need for sides to be taken, and everybody wants to try and draw definitive conclusions about the character and the series one way or the other. Why can it not be both?

I think it's very hard to deny that Kamiya and company designed Bayonetta with an eye towards the dominatrix sort of sex fantasy, mixed in with Kamiya's usual ridiculous flair. The whole "disappearing-clothes-for-attacks" speaks to it, as does the often-bemoaned cameraman, the references to "climax," the lollipop symbolism, and more. However, out of that fantasy has also stepped an extremely confident, quick, powerful, and determined woman. While sometimes there are games with female protagonists that try to pay fairly little attention to their gender, Bayonetta takes the trend so very far in the other direction that I think it becomes so hard to run her over any sort of real dividing line. I think it's possible that the whole female power fantasy aspect of Bayonetta's character wasn't something that the developers were consciously trying to forge, in fact I personally believe that she was created by and for a lot of the "male gaze," but we may have gotten one of gaming's most independent and free heroines out of it as a side-effect. She's both, and while that conclusion doesn't exactly lend itself well to a largely binary debate, I think it's pretty cool that we can have someone to spark that kind of thinking.
 

soy.

Banned
all of these shoulds.... and not a second to spare for who's being primarily entertained (or "serviced")

:>

as for myself, i already said this in a few other threads. bayonetta's character design doesnt bother me. even her nakedness is okay.

its just that her proportions are ugly to my aesthetic preferences. i dont like those legs, at all.

another thing i didnt like was her story line as a 'mother figure'. it just felt trite. idk~

I partly agree with the second half of your post, but I think you missed the boat on this. The awesome summons and flips and animations aren't at all what Emily was talking about in her criticism, because all of that stuff is barely related to the point of the conversation.

Why should seeing Bayonetta lose her clothing be a "reward" for completing long combos? What purpose does it actually serve? Is there a valid reason outside of being a pretty obvious appeal to men (or females who are attracted to females for that matter)? Taken at face value, when you're getting to that point then Bayonetta does boil down to the same issues that many other female game characters run across; using digital sex as a prized object for the (presumably male) player to strive for. Within the context of the game's setting and storyline, there's no real point for it, so in that way the criticism of Bayonetta is absolutely valid.

...But with that being said, I largely disagree with Emily and those on the anti-Bayonetta side when it comes to the overall package being presented. The whole hair-clothing thing is really the only aspect of Bayonetta's character that I personally dislike, because the potential rationale for it is so paper-thin and unnecessary. Why does Bayo disregard clothing in favor of her magical hair? It's not a requirement of Umbran witches, so outside of a completely nonsensical exhibitionist streak (which is only displayed toward enemies that she otherwise shows a complete disregard for), that choice exists not as an empowering factor of the character, but for the audience's enjoyment. Her other choices and actions, the stripper-pole fighting, crazy posing, dismissive attitude towards men, etc, all work very well for the character and fit into the over-the-top nature of the world.

What I really find kind of strange about this entire debate is this apparent need for sides to be taken, and everybody wants to try and draw definitive conclusions about the character and the series one way or the other. Why can it not be both?

I think it's very hard to deny that Kamiya and company designed Bayonetta with an eye towards the dominatrix sort of sex fantasy, mixed in with Kamiya's usual ridiculous flair. The whole "disappearing-clothes-for-attacks" speaks to it, as does the often-bemoaned cameraman, the references to "climax," the lollipop symbolism, and more. However, out of that fantasy has also stepped an extremely confident, quick, powerful, and determined woman. While sometimes there are games with female protagonists that try to pay fairly little attention to their gender, Bayonetta takes the trend so very far in the other direction that I think it becomes so hard to run her over any sort of real dividing line. I think it's possible that the whole female power fantasy aspect of Bayonetta's character wasn't something that the developers were consciously trying to forge, in fact I personally believe that she was created by and for a lot of the "male gaze," but we may have gotten one of gaming's most independent and free heroines out of it as a side-effect. She's both, and while that conclusion doesn't exactly lend itself well to a largely binary debate, I think it's pretty cool that we can have someone to spark that kind of thinking.

hahahaha, i think i got a little carried away there xP
yes, i couldn't agree more. why not both??

from what i saw this far, most of the anti-bayonetta sides can't hide their disgust towards her. apparently, all of her clothes-losing and poses are pretty disgusting for these people.

on the other side, i don't hate realistic games: the genre that was made popular by the last-gen powerhouses consoles. i also had my enjoyable gaming time with the likes of rain and the last of us.
sadly some people that are new into nerds world know only this genre; they don't know about comicbooks with its unbelievably out of this world proportioned heroes, or old videogames where we couldn't afford realistic style yet, everything was in fantasy world.

i can't help to get the impression that they based most of their thoughts on games like halo or battlefield.

ever since sailormoon "created" the "magical girl" genre in 1992, almost every magical girl tv shows transform into their stronger form through some naked sequences.
i used to think too: "why the hell do they need to get naked?? it's annoyingly stupid. i looked like a massive freak when my mom walks in and i'm watching one of those shows. the storyline are pretty awesome, if they just remove the pervy transforming scene!!!"
but over time, i watched more animes and just kinda understand that it's just the way these kind of things goes. i grew accustomed to it. 15 years later, seeing a game heroine with powers like bayonetta, it's nothing new to me. my drool doesn't even drops.

when today i read reviews saying "bayonetta is a great game, but the sexual aspects of this game ruins it", it remind me of myself back then. we have to understand that bayonetta comes from a different culture, a culture where's not all halos and battlefields, a culture where women mostly doesn't give a crap about how they got represented in videogames, where videogames doesn't carry a moral message about gender equality. a culture where heroes losing clothing for a brief moment is normal?? yeah, probably.

in the end, i won't be surprised if bayonetta is kamiya's projection of his personal sexual fantasy. but c'mon, enough with the disgust comments, guys... we're talking about videogames here, fun silly outrageous thing that supposed to entertain. why so serious as far as involving gender issue??

bayonetta always seems to have fun with herself, why can't we?
 

Doorman

Member
ever since sailormoon "created" the "magical girl" genre in 1992, almost every magical girl tv shows transform into their stronger form through some naked sequences.
i used to think too: "why the hell do they need to get naked?? it's annoyingly stupid. i looked like a massive freak when my mom walks in and i'm watching one of those shows. the storyline are pretty awesome, if they just remove the pervy transforming scene!!!"
but over time, i watched more animes and just kinda understand that it's just the way these kind of things goes. i grew accustomed to it. 15 years later, seeing a game heroine with powers like bayonetta, it's nothing new to me. my drool doesn't even drops.

when today i read reviews saying "bayonetta is a great game, but the sexual aspects of this game ruins it", it remind me of myself back then. we have to understand that bayonetta comes from a different culture, a culture where's not all halos and battlefields, a culture where women mostly doesn't give a crap about how they got represented in videogames, where videogames doesn't carry a moral message about gender equality. a culture where heroes losing clothing for a brief moment is normal?? yeah, probably.
While you are right about the "magical girl" stereotype and it interests me to see it brought up here, I do think there is some difference between the presentation of Sailor Moon and something like Bayonetta, even if the biggest difference is simply the target audience. Given the genre of the work and the demographic most associated with it, it's a lot easier to come away with the thought that Bayonetta uses its partial nudity for fanservice purposes much moreso than the old magical girl shows. Bayonetta was not designed to be played by 15-year-old girls. :p

As for the bolded...I doubt it's fair for you to say what Japanese women do or don't give a crap about when it comes to how women appear in games. Maybe there's a neogaf.jp out there where the same conversations are going on, I don't know. But whether the cultural difference is there or not shouldn't affect the ability for the game and its characters to prompt discussions elsewhere, and even expand that discussion beyond its single game or medium. Whether the games wanted to or not, Bayonetta raised the question, and it's a question worth thinking and talking about.

continued said:
in the end, i won't be surprised if bayonetta is kamiya's projection of his personal sexual fantasy. but c'mon, enough with the disgust comments, guys... we're talking about videogames here, fun silly outrageous thing that supposed to entertain. why so serious as far as involving gender issue??

bayonetta always seems to have fun with herself, why can't we?
Well most people who are playing the game seem to have fun with it, so there's that. Enjoying a game and discussing issues spawned from it don't have to be mutually exclusive, though. There are plenty of people who share your "it's just a video game" approach, but video games have been around for several decades now, and continue to become more advanced and more sophisticated in the way that they portray settings, storylines, and characters. For those who want interactive entertainment to stand alongside other forms of media like film or books, it's important to be able to have critiques and conversations like this. It probably won't affect Bayonetta itself or any potential future games in the franchise, especially as a property that's developed overseas, but it's a step in the right direction for the maturity of the medium and those who follow it.
 

soy.

Banned
While you are right about the "magical girl" stereotype and it interests me to see it brought up here, I do think there is some difference between the presentation of Sailor Moon and something like Bayonetta, even if the biggest difference is simply the target audience. Given the genre of the work and the demographic most associated with it, it's a lot easier to come away with the thought that Bayonetta uses its partial nudity for fanservice purposes much moreso than the old magical girl shows. Bayonetta was not designed to be played by 15-year-old girls. :p

As for the bolded...I doubt it's fair for you to say what Japanese women do or don't give a crap about when it comes to how women appear in games. Maybe there's a neogaf.jp out there where the same conversations are going on, I don't know. But whether the cultural difference is there or not shouldn't affect the ability for the game and its characters to prompt discussions elsewhere, and even expand that discussion beyond its single game or medium. Whether the games wanted to or not, Bayonetta raised the question, and it's a question worth thinking and talking about.


Well most people who are playing the game seem to have fun with it, so there's that. Enjoying a game and discussing issues spawned from it don't have to be mutually exclusive, though. There are plenty of people who share your "it's just a video game" approach, but video games have been around for several decades now, and continue to become more advanced and more sophisticated in the way that they portray settings, storylines, and characters. For those who want interactive entertainment to stand alongside other forms of media like film or books, it's important to be able to have critiques and conversations like this. It probably won't affect Bayonetta itself or any potential future games in the franchise, especially as a property that's developed overseas, but it's a step in the right direction for the maturity of the medium and those who follow it.
i thought i'll just brought sailormoon up to remind anti-bayonettas that kamiya and the guys at platinum isn't completely sick psychopath that poured their sexual fantasies into bayonetta -probably forced mari shimazaki against her will in the process; the "brief-naked battle scenes" are long applied and accepted in japan animes, bayonetta might had some influence / idea from the harmless magical girl genre. if we try to look it that way, it doesn't seem that bad, isn't it?

u're right, i might be wrong. but i just happen to be that kind of geek who's really into japanese stuff. i studied their culture like rebecca hutman studied sacagawea >.<
from what i've learned, japanese have really high appreciation for someone else's freedom (they don't care if u're a 40 years old virgin, if u dress like naruto on the streets with yellow spiky hair, or set up a tent in some park and sleep there. the people just simply gave very minimum fucks to everything). they rarely made a huge fuss, especially not about stuff like this.
it's the total opposite to u.s.a where people seems to love sticking our noses to just about everything, even things that we have absolutely no business about.
but yeah, i don't live in japan. there might be a gaf.jp there and i might be dead wrong.

have been playing games for over 20 years, i take videogames very seriously.
but only the technical aspects, not like this. hahahaha...
i'm just hoping that all of this disgust/disagreement thrown towards bayonetta by the contra wouldn't cripple potential future games in the franchise. cuz it's a helluva great game(s) and i'm damn sure enjoying every second of em!
 

UrbanRats

Member
In my view, Bayonetta is basically to sexism what Starship Troopers is to fascism. They both push their topics to such absurdity that you can't take them at face value unless you already ascribe to those values. The anti-fascist and anti-sexist undertones are otherwise quite apparent.

From the little i've played of the two games (the demos and the various videos from reviews and such... plus general osmosis through the years) this seems like a really interesting comparison.
I don't know if it'll go as far as being "anti" sexist, but it definitely feels like a parody work, rather than simple titillation like you usually get.
That may be because i find Bayonetta's forms elegantly grotesque instead of sexy, and her over the top, overt sexuality funny, instead of arousing.

It's why i wouldn't deny she is ultra sexualized (i think that much is obvious) but feel somewhat alienated, when people say she's designed for "male gaze" in that sense.

However, to each their own.
 
From the little i've played of the two games (the demos and the various videos from reviews and such... plus general osmosis through the years) this seems like a really interesting comparison.
I don't know if it'll go as far as being "anti" sexist, but it definitely feels like a parody work, rather than simple titillation like you usually get.
That may be because i find Bayonetta's forms elegantly grotesque instead of sexy, and her over the top, overt sexuality funny, instead of arousing.

It's why i wouldn't deny she is ultra sexualized (i think that much is obvious) but feel somewhat alienated, when people say she's designed for "male gaze" in that sense.

However, to each their own.

Having played most of Bayo 1 with my wife the last couple days and being ready to move to Bayo 2 soon, this is pretty much my take on it. I, again, say the woman in the OP post saying she's designed for males because of her 'model like' proportions is a little off.

Models don't get their positions to titilate men (or women), they are there to sell an impossible level of 'beauty'. Just like He-man was designed to push toys as an impossible level of masculinity. I feel Bayonetta has a model's build is taken beyond that, to the point of parody (super tall legs, over the top poses). It all serves her character in that sense.


In the end though, I can't help but feel we're all looking at a piece of obscure pop art. There is no 'proper' interpretation for sure, but I feel like a lot of people are refusing to look any deeper and instead are only seeing the Campbell's soup can.
 

NotLiquid

Member
The only problem I have with Emily's assessment on Bayonetta is the part where she says that it's "insulting" to think of her as a positive/empowering character.

I'd like to think this discussion is something that is worth agreeing to disagree on, and Jim Sterling himself made a video entirely based around the subject of it being just as okay to praise Bayonetta, as much as it is to dismiss her. But when you get into the finer details and start speaking out of context and in a matter that's effectively condemning positive reinforcement of a relatively ambiguous subject of debate, you're not really being constructive on the matter.

It's a discussion worth having but you can't treat either answer as right or wrong, especially when you're dealing with a character like Bayonetta where the "problematic" nuances are handled in a way that not many other works have tried to do. If that were the case, articles like these wouldn't exist.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
While you are right about the "magical girl" stereotype and it interests me to see it brought up here, I do think there is some difference between the presentation of Sailor Moon and something like Bayonetta, even if the biggest difference is simply the target audience. Given the genre of the work and the demographic most associated with it, it's a lot easier to come away with the thought that Bayonetta uses its partial nudity for fanservice purposes much moreso than the old magical girl shows. Bayonetta was not designed to be played by 15-year-old girls. :p

Magical girl is right, but Sailor Moon's not the inspiration. Think Cutie Honey and you're more on track. If you're not familiar, Cutie Honey's basically an ecchi series about an android girl who has a device that allows her to assume various different personas, chief among them the heroine Cutie Honey. The general plot usually involves Honey getting her clothes cut to ribbons in the course of battle or chase before she gets serious and obliterates whatever monster of the week is harassing her with a show of overwhelming force. Typical shounen anime/manga serial stuff, just with a lot more hearts and lipstick and suggestive content.

The original series dates from 1973 (so it came out at the right time to be on Hideki Kamiya's radar growing up) and was created by Go Nagai, who, among many other things, is a pioneer of ecchi manga and anime. So not exactly for little girls. Though, amazingly, the original show played during prime time in its original run. Truly was a different era, I guess. At any rate, it's a clear inspiration. In fact, they actually reference the opening animation for Gainax's 2004 update of the franchise, Re:Cutie Honey, in the opening of Bayonetta 1 with a very similar series of shots when the angels attack Bayonetta and cut up that nun costume she was wearing to lure them out.

I don't think anybody's going to argue that Bayonetta is not rapidfire cheesecake and slapstick violence created primarily for an audience of adult men. But it knows what it is, it treats its female characters with respect (yes, really), and everybody is having fun. There's no need to try to condemn it when it's so goofy and breezy.
 

Mesoian

Member
The only problem I have with Emily's assessment on Bayonetta is the part where she says that it's "insulting" to think of her as a positive/empowering character.

I understand where she's coming from though, and I think it predominately stems from the fact that women don't have a "Nathan Drake" yet, the default CIS 30 something scruffy white male character that commands the majority of female driven games. It's pretty easy to look a Bayonetta without playing it and go, "this is the best we can do huh?" Even if you are pro sex and pro liberation, it can be jarring when people jump in your face and say that the best/strongest female protagonist in Video Games today is a woman who takes her clothes off as a weapon. She is a character that is demanded by a very niche set of people, she certainly isn't for everyone, and for her to be held up as this shining example of what women should be can certainly be seen as ludicrous.

I think Emily, and women in general, are waiting for more female heroes who don't need apologetic or shaming undertones. More characters who are just straight up heroic, don't need to prove themselves, they hit the scene and it's like, "Okay, here's our protag acting like a commanding human being in their stage of crisis," instead of worrying about how she's going to get sexed up or how she's looking for a man to follow or most of the female narrative tropes that dominates mass media. It's a fair thing to wait for and I understand their frustration when niche groups of men are getting their heroine before the majority of women get theirs. There is merit to their quandary.

That being said, I think Bayonetta is awesome.

The original series dates from 1973 (so it came out at the right time to be on Hideki Kamiya's radar growing up) and was created by Go Nagai, who, among many other things, is a pioneer of ecchi manga and anime. So not exactly for little girls. Though, amazingly, the original show played during prime time in its original run. Truly was a different era, I guess. At any rate, it's a clear inspiration. In fact, they actually reference the opening animation for Gainax's 2004 update of the franchise, Re:Cutie Honey, in the opening of Bayonetta 1 with a very similar series of shots when the angels attack Bayonetta and cut up that nun costume she was wearing to lure them out.

Go Nagai is so cool...
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I partly agree with the second half of your post, but I think you missed the boat on this. The awesome summons and flips and animations aren't at all what Emily was talking about in her criticism, because all of that stuff is barely related to the point of the conversation.

Why should seeing Bayonetta lose her clothing be a "reward" for completing long combos? What purpose does it actually serve? Is there a valid reason outside of being a pretty obvious appeal to men (or females who are attracted to females for that matter)? Taken at face value, when you're getting to that point then Bayonetta does boil down to the same issues that many other female game characters run across; using digital sex as a prized object for the (presumably male) player to strive for. Within the context of the game's setting and storyline, there's no real point for it, so in that way the criticism of Bayonetta is absolutely valid.
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The stripping thing is really interesting actually, because for all of the crotch and ass shots that show up in cutscenes and some action sequences, the actual framing when she pulls off a demon summon that strips her in that "hair typhoon" thing is actually pretty damn modest. She's still covered up pretty well, you can just tell she's naked behind it, and its a situation where the camera isn't really swooping in close in an indulgent fashion
 

KHlover

Banned
Anecdotal evidence: Just came home from work and found my sis on the WiiU, playing Bayonetta.

She really isn't a gamer at all (last time she touched a game it was MK8 on release), but she really seems to have taken a liking to Bayonetta :D
 

Mesoian

Member
The stripping thing is really interesting actually, because for all of the crotch and ass shots that show up in cutscenes and some action sequences, the actual framing when she pulls off a demon summon that strips her in that "hair typhoon" thing is actually pretty damn modest. She's still covered up pretty well, you can just tell she's naked behind it, and its a situation where the camera isn't really swooping in close in an indulgent fashion

Well...sometimes.

Anecdotal evidence: Just came home from work and found my sis on the WiiU, playing Bayonetta.

She really isn't a gamer at all (last time she touched a game it was MK8 on release), but she really seems to have taken a liking to Bayonetta :D

I mean, there's a lot to like, Bayonetta is a fun character, even if she isn't for everyone.

So the question remains, even beyond this Bayonetta conversation: Where are the games with female protagonists that ARE for everyone? Not supporting characters or background characters, where are games with female protagonists that don't need any sort of apologizing or rationalizing for their mere existence?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I mean, there's a lot to like, Bayonetta is a fun character, even if she isn't for everyone.

So the question remains, even beyond this Bayonetta conversation: Where are the games with female protagonists that ARE for everyone? Not supporting characters or background characters, where are games with female protagonists that don't need any sort of apologizing or rationalizing for their mere existence?

We're getting there. There have been several games with stronger than normal supporting female characters in the last couple of years, and for all that we can argue about the actual execution I think the way they handled Lara in the recent Tomb Raider reboot was at least well intentioned.

But I do like Bayonetta because I think its important to remember that, going forward, even if we should be moving away from the crass seuxualization (and sexism) that permeates a lot of the big budget industry, just because you're "trying to make a good female character" doesn't mean that they have to be completely desexed.
 

entremet

Member
The problem with these assessments of Bayonetta is that they remove context. If you look at the Bayonetta character within the cutscenes, dialogue and gameplay, she comes across as very different.

Sure if you just look at scenes doing finishing moves at nauseam it may come across as crass. But within the game its a very balanced portrayal. I would say the original Lara Croft was cruder based on her crazy proportions.

My beef, is that we've been clamoring for stronger female characters, and when we get one, the criticism falls on snapshot judgments of the character. Bayonetta is strong and yet still feminine in a tropes sense. She's not going to please everyone, and I understand that, but at least play the game to get know the character.
 

KHlover

Banned
Well...sometimes.



I mean, there's a lot to like, Bayonetta is a fun character, even if she isn't for everyone.

So the question remains, even beyond this Bayonetta conversation: Where are the games with female protagonists that ARE for everyone? Not supporting characters or background characters, where are games with female protagonists that don't need any sort of apologizing or rationalizing for their mere existence?

No One Lives Forever?
Giana Sisters?
Super Princess Peach?
Metroid (up until Other M)?
 

Mesoian

Member
No One Lives Forever?
Giana Sisters?
Super Princess Peach?
Metroid (up until Other M)?

NOLF i'll give you, but that shit is dead (i don't even understand why, I'd buy a new NOLF tomorrow, NOLF2 is so fucking good)

Giana Sisters isn't bad but it's still this very odd Mario Brothers clone that only recently started being it's own franchise with it's own mechanics.

People do so much apologizing for Super Princess Peach that Anita Sarkeesian had enough material to talk about it for 5 minutes in her video series. That is a bad example. "She's a female protagonist, so I guess we need girly powers...let's just make her have mood swings that are so violent, they destroy her enemies. SURELY NO ONE WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT!"

Metroid is pretty good, until they gave it to team ninja, harbingers of daddy issues, to write the story and assassinate Samus' character.

So 1 really strong example out of 4, in a world where we, as citizens of the protoculture, complain regularly about every protagonist in video games essentially being a Nathan Drake clone.

Part of me wants to say Shantai, or Mighty Switch Force, but even then, those character designs are clearly eye candy first, interesting design second.

It's hard, and while characters and designs in games are getting better (that 2014 fall female designs thread is illuminating), we still don't have female protags that don't have a boat load of visual caveats.

Real talk: Where is our generic 3rd person traversal shooter staring Chloe from Uncharted?
 

nded

Member
Metroid is pretty good, until they gave it to team ninja, harbingers of daddy issues, to write the story and assassinate Samus' character.

I was under the impression that Team Ninja just handled gameplay and most of the story stuff was on Sakamoto. You could sort of see the weirdness begin to appear in Fusion.

Real talk: Where is our generic 3rd person traversal shooter staring Chloe from Uncharted?

Maybe the next Tomb Raider.
 

Mesoian

Member
It's not third person, but you have Mirror's Edge. And there's a new entry for that coming out eventually.

I mean, tangential, I do not understand why people like Jade. She is a boring character in a game with a terrible story. It's not like Portal where she acts as a foil for the world around her, there is nothing interesting about her; her sister is far more interesting than she is. I know I was being a bit reductive, but it's sort of sad that Jade is considered interesting because of a completely reliance on visual normality.

But on the topic, how much BEGGING did we have to do to get a confirmation that the game was going to be made, even though we don't know when the development schedule will begin.

I was under the impression that Team Ninja just handled gameplay and most of the story stuff was on Sakamoto. You could sort of see the weirdness begin to appear in Fusion.

I was under the impression that Sakamoto was handling the design stuff, which ended up being the crux of a lot of people's arguments. The Adam stuff is OLLLLLLLLLLD, the Metroid manga has Adam in there as a main character, so her having this weird older brother/daddy figure makes sense in the grand scheme of this lore that never made it to any video games.

It's not that it's there, it's how it's done. On paper, without any of the acting, the plot to OtherM is fine.
 

KHlover

Banned
Ah just remembered two other ones. Drakan and Beyond Good and Evil had sone great female protagonists. Especially Beyond Good and Evil.
 
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