Support NeoGAF

[Mesoian]

Ah just remembered two other ones. Drakan and Beyond Good and Evil had sone great female protagonists. Especially Beyond Good and Evil.

I'm unfamiliar with Drakan, but yes, Beyond Good and Evil is a great example of a female character done right.

And we are never getting Beyond Good and Evil 2, regardless of what Ubisoft tells us. I'm fairly sure they bring it up here and there to keep Michel Ancel happy.

 

[nded]

I was under the impression that Sakamoto was handling the design stuff, which ended up being the crux of a lot of people's arguments. The Adam stuff is OLLLLLLLLLLD, the Metroid manga has Adam in there as a main character, so her having this weird older brother/daddy figure makes sense in the grand scheme of this lore that never made it to any video games.

It's not that it's there, it's how it's done. On paper, without any of the acting, the plot to OtherM is fine.

All the same, I'm not sure Team Ninja had much to do with the writing and story in Other M.

 

[Pyrrhus]

All the same, I'm not sure Team Ninja had much to do with the writing and story in Other M.

Team Ninja did the coding and some of the visual design. But the story was all Sakamoto.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I mean, tangential, I do not understand why people like Jade. She is a boring character in a game with a terrible story. It's not like Portal where she acts as a foil for the world around her, there is nothing interesting about her; her sister is far more interesting than she is. I know I was being a bit reductive, but it's sort of sad that Jade is considered interesting because of a completely reliance on visual normality.

But on the topic, how much BEGGING did we have to do to get a confirmation that the game was going to be made, even though we don't know when the development schedule will begin.

She mainly gets praise as a character because of her design. As actual character she's pretty boring. But that also makes her like a lot of other male leads. Nothing particularly memorable about her aside from her design.

Anyway, I doubt we'll ever see it, but if there was a game where Chloe was the lead i'd hope that it'd be more in the vein of classic TR. Minimal combat and heavy on exploration and puzzle solving.

 

[thesolidshark]

Would Korra, Amada Ripley (Alien Isolation), (assuming they're female) the squid characters from Splatoon, and maybe some others I'm missing as of late count?

 

[YoYo Switch]

I just wanna say. As a straight, white male gamer. Having Bayonetta strip naked after performing well is in no way a reward for me as the player. The reward is performing well and kicking ass and dominating the combat situation with style and grace. The feeling you get from restarting the chapter over and over again until you defeat the boss without dying, or complete a combat encounter without touching the ground or breaking a combo. THATS the reward that Bayonetta gives the player. Not showing you a naked lady. Calling it a reward is incredibly disingenuous I feel and completely inaccurate, as she takes her clothes off at the end of wicked weaves, which come at the end of a combo string, not for "doing well"

Stating so echoes those inaccurate sensalitiost local news reports about GTA giving you "points" for murdering people and shows absolutely zero understanding of the actual game.

Bayonetta herself is just showing off because she likes to.

The player's rewards happen inwardly and isn't something you can model. Bayonetta is first and foremost a game about feeling.

 

[GeordieMark]

Games, like comics, tend to exaggerate character designs to amplify masculinity and femininity and I believe that's how we end up with characters like Bayonetta, and equally like Marcus Fenix.

For me, I agree with the comments about ownership. Bayonetta is portrayed as smart, sassy, and more than a match for any guy. She's a strong woman and in control, so in that sense she is a positive representation for women.

That said, I completely understand why others might see her as a character designed to satisfy male fetishes. I mean, it all good having a female character in control of her sexuality and a strong woman, but what's the justification for the look of her if not to titillate guys?

 

[YoYo Switch]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

 

[Mesoian]

Would Korra, Amada Ripley (Alien Isolation), (assuming they're female) the squid characters from Splatoon, and maybe some others I'm missing as of late count?

IMO - Korra no, that game is just an extension of a licensed project. I'd say that Korra represents a bigger push for female equality, hindered by it's own long term ineptitude. But the game itself matters very little and it's budget and development time was pretty indicative of what Activision thought of their involvement in the product overall.

Amanda Ripley is sort of the same thing done well, so that might count. I'd say a better example in a similar genre would be Alexandra from Eternal Darkness, but again, we're NEVER getting another game with her in it, ever again. But Amanda Ripley's existence is based on Aliens lore that is very very old and has more to do with Sigourney Weaver putting the horror genre on it's head by having a strong female character not be complete shit in a horror movie than it does with CA making a game with a female lead. Not that Amanda is bad, She's no Ellen though.

I hope Splatoon is good about that stuff. If that game is all based on creating inklings CAP style, I want a ton of different options. It's tough to tell with that stuff though.

 

[atr0cious]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

Playing the Bayo 2 demo, the first time I saw the sliding dodge.

No actual arousal, but I was moaning in ecstasy.

 

[Mesoian]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

Without spoiling anything, there's a few quick scenes in Bayo 2 where I went, "HUH! Hey now!"

Plotwise, Bayo 2 is a lot more straight faced than Bayo 1, which means a lot of the absurdity of the nudity sort of takes a back seat to itself, which makes the previous stabs at male gaze turn into...just male gaze.

It's this really difficult thing to manage, I bet. When you decide to stop playing around and being dumb and tell a story that explains more about the lore of that world, stuff that's supposed to be taken at least somewhat seriously, it makes the craziness that links all that stuff together also sort of serious, and then you get to the point where it's less of a joke than it's ever been.

Bayo 2's jabs at titillation almost require you to have played Bayo 1 to appreciate it, and in a vacuum, I can see the "joke" being lost on a lot of people.

I just wanna say. As a straight, white male gamer. Having Bayonetta strip naked after performing well is in no way a reward for me as the player. The reward is performing well and kicking ass and dominating the combat situation with style and grace. The feeling you get from restarting the chapter over and over again until you defeat the boss without dying, or complete a combat encounter without touching the ground or breaking a combo. THATS the reward that Bayonetta gives the player. Not showing you a naked lady. Calling it a reward is incredibly disingenuous I feel and completely inaccurate, as she takes her clothes off at the end of wicked weaves, which come at the end of a combo string, not for "doing well"

To be fair, in Bayo 2, if you get a pure platinum, 40% of the time you get the sound of Bayonetta making a moan. 100% it is some thinly veiled sexual innuendo stemming from a BDSM base.

 

[nded]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

Certainly not during gameplay. The wicked weaves happen fairly quickly and it's not like the game goes out of its way to showcase Bayonetta's state of undress outside of the cinematic weaves, and even those tend to focus more on hair demons and angel pummeling than Bayonetta's body.

 

[Mesoian]

Certainly not during gameplay. The wicked weaves happen fairly quickly and it's not like the game goes out of its way to showcase Bayonetta's state of undress outside of the cinematic weaves, and even those tend to focus more on hair demons and angel pummeling than Bayonetta's body.

True, in fact, if you see Bayonetta at all during a wicked weave, you are probably fucking up.

 

[YoYo Switch]

Without spoiling anything, there's a few quick scenes in Bayo 2 where I went, "HUH! Hey now!"

Plotwise, Bayo 2 is a lot more straight faced than Bayo 1, which means a lot of the absurdity of the nudity sort of takes a back seat to itself, which makes the previous stabs at male gaze turn into...just male gaze.

It's this really difficult thing to manage, I bet. When you decide to stop playing around and being dumb and tell a story that explains more about the lore of that world, stuff that's supposed to be taken at least somewhat seriously, it makes the craziness that links all that stuff together also sort of serious, and then you get to the point where it's less of a joke than it's ever been.

Bayo 2's jabs at titillation almost require you to have played Bayo 1 to appreciate it, and in a vacuum, I can see the "joke" being lost on a lot of people.

I'm sorry I don't get what you're saying here. I haven't finished Bayonetta 2 yet, so I'm not sure what sort of jab at the male gaze trope it takes but

I felt that even Bayonetta 1 did a some of what you're talking about. Subverting the idea of the "male gaze" and poking fun at the sexual nature of female video game characters. Only a little bit though, it wasn't the entire angle of Bayo1. And Whether it was successful in getting that across or not is subjective. But I feel confident in saying that I personally didn't find it harmful in any way

Actually a scene in Bayo 2 that I found sorta gross is the shot of Jeanne's ass as the demon hand open palm grabs it, followed by the rest of the hands coming in and dragging her down to hell. It was a particularly serious moment so that was really noticeable for me and unnecessary. Feels like a mistake to me.

To be fair, in Bayo 2, if you get a pure platinum, 40% of the time you get the sound of Bayonetta making a moan. 100% it is some thinly veiled sexual innuendo stemming from a BDSM base.

But Bayonetta is a total BDSM looking character. Her design informs her character (which was informed by the type of game they wanted to make) so of course she moans in ecstasy when she totally dominates the enemy. Nothing wrong with a woman getting off is there? That one second of Bayonetta moaning is not my reward! You know what is? My Pure Platinum Medal!

 

[Mesoian]

I'm sorry I don't get what you're saying here. I haven't finished Bayonetta 2 yet, so I'm not sure what sort of jab at the male gaze trope it takes but

I felt that even Bayonetta 1 did a some of what you're talking about. Subverting the idea of the "male gaze" and poking fun at the sexual nature of female video game characters. Only a little bit though, it wasn't the entire angle of Bayo1. And Whether it was successful in getting that across or not is subjective. But I feel confident in saying that I personally didn't find it harmful in any way

Actually a scene in Bayo 2 that I found sorta gross is the shot of Jeanne's ass as the demon hand open palm grabs it, followed by the rest of the hands coming in and dragging her down to hell. It was a particularly serious moment so that was really noticeable for me and unnecessary. Feels like a mistake to me.

Yeah, keep playing.

One of the best quotes about Bayonetta is still, "Everything about Bayonetta herself is great. She's powerful, she's in charge, she handles everything, she is the queen bitch we all want her to be. Everything AROUND Bayonetta that tries to approach any sort of sexuality often comes off as problematic," and then someone usually drops a video of Joy's intro from Bayo 1.

Interestingly, Joy is not in Bayo 2, and the only thing that comes close to her design, Alraune, is pretty awesome as a character.

But Bayonetta is a total BDSM looking character. Her design informs her character (which was informed by the type of game they wanted to make) so of course she moans in ecstasy when she totally dominates the enemy. Nothing wrong with a woman getting off is there? That one second of Bayonetta moaning is not my reward! You know what is? My Pure Platinum Medal!

Not at all.

It's just one of those things. I could see someone playing through a particularly tough section with flawless precision rolling their eyes and sighing as the payoff to their skillful play is Bayonetta breathlessly stating "Ooooh naughty boy!".

It's not good or bad. It's just...one of those things.

 

[YoYo Switch]

Yeah, keep playing.

One of the best quotes about Bayonetta is still, "Everything about Bayonetta herself is great. She's powerful, she's in charge, she handles everything, she is the queen bitch we all want her to be. Everything AROUND Bayonetta that tries to approach any sort of sexuality often comes off as problematic," and then someone usually drops a video of Joy's intro from Bayo 1.

Interestingly, Joy is not in Bayo 2, and the only thing that comes close to her design, Alraune, is pretty awesome as a character.

heh. Joy made me laugh to tell the truth. Back to the point: I agree with that quote and what you've said.

Not at all.

It's just one of those things. I could see someone playing through a particularly tough section with flawless precision rolling their eyes and sighing as the payoff to their skillful play is Bayonetta breathlessly stating "Ooooh naughty boy!".

It's not good or bad. It's just...one of those things.

I don't necessarily think that Bayonetta stating "oooh naughty boy" was designed or intended to be the payoff though.

I understand what you're saying though. And there's no way to really know for sure unless we ask whoever made the decision to put that there. But from the eyes of me, a straight guy, I see it as a detail that informs Bayonetta's character. If she's designed like a dominatrix, I don't find it out of place that she's reveling in joy after kicking an exceptional amount of ass. It just makes sense, and isn't as forced as anything similar I've seen in other games.

But this is all subjective. I am personally acknowledging your opinion as it being "just one of those things." because, there is certainly a way to angle it that way, just as I've stretched it to fit my world view. At the end of the day, people are just gonna feel different things.

 

[shandy706]

While I found this shot funny/silly when I first saw it...it wasn't until I noticed (by clicking to enlarge) the ummmm....errrr...texture-work/stitching that I realized that it may make someone further uncomfortable. They probably could have done a better job there...assuming it's NOT on purpose.

If you don't see what's "off" about this image...we'll just leave it at that, I'm not explaining it .

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Where did I imply hysteria? Are you suggesting it is impossible for any woman to have an unreasonable argument on any of these topics? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but telling me I can't criticize hers without being sexist is nonsense. I agree with many of the female opinions in the OP, just not this one.

The whole "she's being emotional" part seemed like a poor choice of word. You are free to criticize or disagree but saying she's more emotional because you disagree with her seems disingenuous.

Even if you are pro sex and pro liberation, it can be jarring when people jump in your face and say that the best/strongest female protagonist in Video Games today is a woman who takes her clothes off as a weapon. [...]
I think Emily, and women in general, are waiting for more female heroes who don't need apologetic or shaming undertones. More characters who are just straight up heroic, don't need to prove themselves, they hit the scene and it's like, "Okay, here's our protag acting like a commanding human being in their stage of crisis," instead of worrying about how she's going to get sexed up or how she's looking for a man to follow or most of the female narrative tropes that dominates mass media.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Completely agreed.

So the question remains, even beyond this Bayonetta conversation: Where are the games with female protagonists that ARE for everyone? Not supporting characters or background characters, where are games with female protagonists that don't need any sort of apologizing or rationalizing for their mere existence?

Good question. They seem to be sadly rare. I could go with Alex Roivas from Eternal Darkness, Faith from Mirrors Edge, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, Heather from Silent Hill 3, as good examples. For games with multiple playable characters, Borderlands does very well: Lilith, Maya, Gaige, and more recently Athena and Nisha are fantastic without having dubious design choices around them.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

First, I think that's kind of a leading question. Even if no one "literally pops a boner" at a character that doesn't mean the character's sexualization can't be problematic, much like how if someone does pop a boner at another character, it doesn't make this character problematic.

Second, well, a male friend and I were having a silly conversation about video game crushes the other day, and he said, "you're gonna laugh at my favourite crush... Bayonetta :$" And he said he found her really sexy. I don't know about boners, since I don't know such intimate details about him, though.

 

[K-A-Deman]

NOLF i'll give you, but that shit is dead (i don't even understand why, I'd buy a new NOLF tomorrow, NOLF2 is so fucking good)

What does that do to diminish their statement? You asked for characters that were for everyone, not when they were made.

Giana Sisters isn't bad but it's still this very odd Mario Brothers clone that only recently started being it's own franchise with it's own mechanics.

Again, what does that do to eliminate the relevance of the statement?

People do so much apologizing for Super Princess Peach that Anita Sarkeesian had enough material to talk about it for 5 minutes in her video series. That is a bad example. "She's a female protagonist, so I guess we need girly powers...let's just make her have mood swings that are so violent, they destroy her enemies. SURELY NO ONE WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT!"

Cultural differences and an oversight of how thier actions translated to the rest of the world, same crap that happened with Tomodachi Life. I'm not saying that's a good excuse, just a reason.

Metroid is pretty good, until they gave it to team ninja, harbingers of daddy issues, to write the story and assassinate Samus' character.

Team Ninja did the solid gameplay, Sakemoto is the one that added Daddy issues.

Part of me wants to say Shantai, or Mighty Switch Force, but even then, those character designs are clearly eye candy first, interesting design second.

The gameplay's solid and the world's are beautifully designed with fun characters, why does it matter what skin is shown or some little risque (heh) dialogue?

Real talk: Where is our generic 3rd person traversal shooter staring Chloe from Uncharted?

Ask Sony and Naughty Dog, they're the one's that make that decision.

 

[Teremap]

The gameplay's solid and the world's are beautifully designed with fun characters, why does it matter what skin is shown or some little risque (heh) dialogue?

I'll answer this the same way every time:

Because reasonably dressed female characters who sit appropriately within their setting are still a minority - exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[Mesoian]

What does that do to diminish their statement? You asked for characters that were for everyone, not when they were made.
Again, what does that do to eliminate the relevance of the statement?

Well I was looking for examples that were a little more future facing. If the one example we have going forward of a female protagonist that doesn't require some sort of reliance on wardrobe is Faith in Mirror's Edge 2, we have a problem.

But like I said, yeah, NOLF3, fund it instead of that terrible spin off.

Cultural differences and an oversight of how thier actions translated to the rest of the world, same crap that happened with Tomodachi Life. I'm not saying that's a good excuse, just a reason.

PFFT No dude. There are no cultural differences in Super Princess Peach, that game is 100% "Women be emotional, amirite guys": the video game. There's a lot of creepy behavior that's done in the name of cultural differences that I'll stand by, but SPP is not one of them. That game was a problem, and there's a reason why they pretty munch ditched everything from it, save for Peach's final smash in Brawl, which is useless. I don't even know of any cultural differences in Tomodachi Life that were controversial outside of the gay marriage bug.

The gameplay's solid and the world's are beautifully designed with fun characters, why does it matter what skin is shown or some little risque (heh) dialogue?

Again, in a vacuum, just like bayonetta, it doesn't matter, those games are good. It starts to matter when you stack up all these games that do have female protagonist with sexualized traits that have to be either explained away or apologized for. Shantae and MSF are great games, but i'm not going to sit there and pretend like half of the game isn't eye candy, and neither should you. Which brings me to the real point of this whole thing...

Ask Sony and Naughty Dog, they're the one's that make that decision.

There's the rub. Because if you do ask Sony or Naughty Dog, or EA or Activision or Microsoft, they'll tell you that what you want "THIS GAME!" and they have just the thing for you, but THAT GAME isn't starring a woman. If you want to play as a woman, you've got Bayonetta! Or Lollipop Chainsaw! Or Miku Hatsune, or Shantae, or MSF, etc etc etc.

If you want to play as a woman who is simply good at her job and managing the situation that she is in, you are shit out of luck. Unless you want to wait for 2015 when Tomb Raider 2 comes out or 2016 or possibly later when Mirror's Edge comes out, you will have to play these games that really aren't made for you. The best you can do until this is play these games that happen to have strong females helping you out on your quest, and who knows, maybe you'll play as a woman. But they aren't the focus. They aren't supposed to be.

And that kind of sucks.

 

[Kinyou]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

Definitely sprung a boner during the final level but for different reasons

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

I don't have have a problem with you forming opinions on a surface level, and I will consisder your arguement weaker. Whatever, opinions are opinions. But if say I accused you (hypothetically) or you accused me of being racist based on my work/your work, we better well have played and analyzed before throwing the accusations. Then again, this is the twitter age *grumble grumble.

 

[RMI]

Definitely sprung a boner during the final level but for different reasons

I know that feel.

 

[Auto-Reply]

...
Real talk: Where is our generic 3rd person traversal shooter staring Chloe from Uncharted?

There was Samantha Byrne in Gears of War 3, ok it's not exactly what you asked for but she was a playable character with (gears)-personality

Spoiler

and voiced by Claudia Black

 

[Mesoian]

There was Samantha Byrne in Gears of War 3, ok it's not exactly what you asked for but she was a playable character with (gears)-personality

Spoiler

and voiced by Claudia Black

Was Sam playable? It's been years since I played GOW3, I thought she was only playable in multiplayer.

Why are all my favorite characters just Claudia Black?

 

[Auto-Reply]

Was Sam playable? It's been years since I played GOW3, I thought she was only playable in multiplayer.

Why are all my favorite characters just Claudia Black?

In 4-player co-op and depending on the chapter you get to play as her afair.

 

[Mesoian]

In 4-player co-op and depending on the chapter you get to play as her afair.

Ah, see I never saw that stuff.

 

[K-A-Deman]

Well I was looking for examples that were a little more future facing. If the one example we have going forward of a female protagonist that doesn't require some sort of reliance on wardrobe is Faith in Mirror's Edge 2, we have a problem.

But like I said, yeah, NOLF3, fund it instead of that terrible spin off.

That's fair to say, but also contradictory. Shantae doesn't rely on her dancer's outfit, nor does Lara rely on her tank top.

PFFT No dude. There are no cultural differences in Super Princess Peach, that game is 100% "Women be emotional, amirite guys": the video game. There's a lot of creepy behavior that's done in the name of cultural differences that I'll stand by, but SPP is not one of them. That game was a problem, and there's a reason why they pretty munch ditched everything from it, save for Peach's final smash in Brawl, which is useless. I don't even know of any cultural differences in Tomodachi Life that were controversial outside of the gay marriage bug.

I wasn't specifically talking about world culture but more of company culture. Nintendo have always seen themselves as toymakers and not pioneers of anything other than gameplay. Peach's use of emotions as a power were solid as far as mechanics go, but did rightfully have horrific implications that couldn't really be hidden. And that's the disconnect; Nintendo is Gameplay first, everything else second, to their folly and aid.

Again, in a vacuum, just like bayonetta, it doesn't matter, those games are good. It starts to matter when you stack up all these games that do have female protagonist with sexualized traits that have to be either explained away or apologized for. Shantae and MSF are great games, but i'm not going to sit there and pretend like half of the game isn't eye candy, and neither should you. Which brings me to the real point of this whole thing...

I'm not pretending anything, only questioning how this all adds up to such a catastrophe and trying to understand how Shantae == Bayonetta on the sexist scale, or how creating a rationalization or merit in the context of the story is a sin that should be shamed and torn to shreds.

If you want to play as a woman who is simply good at her job and managing the situation that she is in, you are shit out of luck. Unless you want to wait for 2015 when Tomb Raider 2 comes out or 2016 or possibly later when Mirror's Edge comes out, you will have to play these games that really aren't made for you. The best you can do until this is play these games that happen to have strong females helping you out on your quest, and who knows, maybe you'll play as a woman. But they aren't the focus. They aren't supposed to be.

And that kind of sucks.

So your arguing that there's not enough women characters that are trained for a specific game, is that it? Like how Faith knows parkour and free running for messages or Lara Croft knows how to murder people in the way of a treasure? I'm trying to understand what you're arguing for here so I apologize if I'm way off.

 

[Mesoian]

That's fair to say, but also contradictory. Shantae doesn't rely on her dancer's outfit, nor does Lara rely on her tank top.

While true, Lara still can't put a coat on when running through a blizzard, even though she has dispatched hundreds of dudes wearing gear specifically made for cold weather (unless you paid the 5-10-20 dollars extra for the DLC/Preorder costumes). And I bet Shantae would get a lot less shit from the Ammo Baron if she was wearing gear befitting an arab warrior, but then that would be a different game. It's not that they're reliant on it, it's that their absense of it makes no sense and has to be explained away. "She's a genie, she would have gear. She's a hair watch, her nudity is her weapon. She's a cheerleader, cheerleading outfits are fine for zombie combat. Don't worry about. It's fine. It's not important. Trust me, the game is really good if you look past all that."

We do it a LOT.

I wasn't specifically talking about world culture but more of company culture. Nintendo have always seen themselves as toymakers and not pioneers of anything other than gameplay. Peach's use of emotions as a power were solid as far as mechanics go, but did rightfully have horrific implications that couldn't really be hidden. And that's the disconnect; Nintendo is Gameplay first, everything else second, to their folly and aid.

Fair, but we don't live in that world anymore. Capcom learned that lesson the hard way.

I'm not pretending anything, only questioning how this all adds up to such a catastrophe and trying to understand how Shantae == Bayonetta on the sexist scale, or how creating a rationalization or merit in the context of the story is a sin that should be shamed and torn to shreds.

Again, it's not that this one game does it or that one game does it, it's that there's almost an onus on developers en masse to do it simply because it's the perceived thing to do. And if you're not the person that those games are made for, which is the thing we say time and time again about Bayonetta or Shantae or whathaveyou, you're left out in the cold because the idea of a female protagonist that doesn't have a sexy gimmick is so far out there that it happens so very rarely.

So your arguing that there's not enough women characters that are trained for a specific game, is that it? Like how Faith knows parkour and free running for messages or Lara Croft knows how to murder people in the way of a treasure? I'm trying to understand what you're arguing for here so I apologize if I'm way off.

That's certainly part of it. It feels like when a woman in a protagonist in a game, there's an emphasis on her having some sort of fanciful made up backstory that explains how she can do all this stuff that other male heroes have been doing without a shred of backstory for years. You can't have female soldiers, you have witches. You can't have female police men, you have spies. You can't have female treasure hunters, you have traumatized college students. It's weird, and it doesn't make sense when you have games that sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of copies where the backstory for the hero begins and ends at "He's a soldier, so fuck it," or "he wants the money, so fuck it." For women, let's create a backstory that no one can relate to and THAT'll be the reason why she's so strong and determined, but for a guy, meh, fuck it.

 

[Kris Pistofferson]

Not to make assumptions but I understand I'm about to:

who here has ever seriously popped a boner for Bayonetta. Like actually.

Not me. Bayonetta isn't 'sexy' but 'sexually intimidating'.

It's not like the game is any lacking in phallic symbolism either. Yet, every time she takes her clothes off it's to summon a demon that emasculates or castrates her victims. You should be scared shitless of this woman's sexuality because she's actively using it to victimize you. By castration, no less.

Even the ruggedly handsome comic sidekick never 'gets with her'. He's just 'taking care of the children while mommy goes to work' which is Freudian castration anxiety in a nutshell. It's what makes the whole 'sexist' argument so misplaced because it so utterly misses the point.

 

[K-A-Deman]

While true, Lara still can't put a coat on when running through a blizzard, even though she has dispatched hundreds of dudes wearing gear specifically made for cold weather (unless you paid the 5-10-20 dollars extra for the DLC/Preorder costumes). And I bet Shantae would get a lot less shit from the Ammo Baron if she was wearing gear befitting an arab warrior, but then that would be a different game. It's not that they're reliant on it, it's that their absense of it makes no sense and has to be explained away. "She's a genie, she would have gear. She's a hair watch, her nudity is her weapon. She's a cheerleader, cheerleading outfits are fine for zombie combat. Don't worry about. It's fine. It's not important. Trust me, the game is really good if you look past all that."

Alright I think I'm starting to understand where you're coming from here (but please feel free to correct me if I'm off and I'm going to avoid giving too much of my rebuttal until I understand properly, if you don't mind.). Your arguing how it was unfair that Lara couldn't wear a more appropriate attire in an extreme weather condition by default. That's totally fair and I agree that's a good example.

I'm a little confused by the Shantae one since I haven't played Pirate's Curse yet and it's been a while since I played Risky's Revenge, but from my understanding the Amno Baron bought out her town and she's opposed to his changing things. I don't know if there's a more personal grudge between them, So I can't argue this point in good conscious, sorry. But more to the point, you're arguing that it's the quantity of games that use this as an excuse to rationalize unpractical attire or practices, right?

Fair, but we don't live in that world anymore. Capcom learned that lesson the hard way.

Thankfully true, and with any luck we won't have another debacle like that in the future.

Again, it's not that this one game does it or that one game does it, it's that there's almost an onus on developers en masse to do it simply because it's the perceived thing to do. And if you're not the person that those games are made for, which is the thing we say time and time again about Bayonetta or Shantae or whathaveyou, you're left out in the cold because the idea of a female protagonist that doesn't have a sexy gimmick is so far out there that it happens so very rarely.

Alright so building on my understanding from the first part, you're saying that the issue is in it(being the portrayal) being the standard response and not so much on the case by case basis, right?

That's certainly part of it. It feels like when a woman in a protagonist in a game, there's an emphasis on her having some sort of fanciful made up backstory that explains how she can do all this stuff that other male heroes have been doing without a shred of backstory for years. You can't have female soldiers, you have witches. You can't have female police men, you have spies. You can't have female treasure hunters, you have traumatized college students. It's weird, and it doesn't make sense when you have games that sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of copies where the backstory for the hero begins and ends at "He's a soldier, so fuck it," or "he wants the money, so fuck it." For women, let's create a backstory that no one can relate to and THAT'll be the reason why she's so strong and determined, but for a guy, meh, fuck it.

I'm going to have to interject on a personal synopsis despite my earlier promise, so sorry in advance. The issue being that there needs to be more rationale for a woman character compared to a male, yes? I wonder if part of that is how as gaming grows more advanced in technique, charactarization, and themes, that the drive to include more types of female characters has a cooralation with that. Like, maybe the advancement in technology makes it an obligation to present a charactar that's more than a name and an occupation by giving her(or him) motivations or depths or rationalization. In fact, I wonder if It might be more insulting to NOT put the same level of detail into male characters and appeal to tradition of "he's a solider, he shoots." as they are a woman character. But then I'm rambling...

Again, I apologize if I'm misunderstanding.

 

[Nemmy]

Regarding the whole "why can't Bayonetta wear normal clothing instead of just hair" thing - I always found it pretty obvious, even though the game never openly stated it, that with the witches' constantly-in-combat lifestyle, normal clothing gets wrecked way too quickly. Bayonetta's nun outfit gets all cut up in the opening cutscene, Jeanne's clothes end up all burned in an explosion, so she ends up wearing a hair suit of her own for the final battle, and from what I've seen of Bayo2 (didn't play it yet) that bitchin' white dress doesn't survive for long, either. On the other hand, with the magic hair instantly growing back when needed, a hair outfit is indestructible no matter what.
Now it can't be denied that the way the witches lose their clothes in the game is displayed in a sexualized, male-gazey way, but beyond mere titillation I think there is a reasonable ingame justification for "relying on" hair clothing.

 

[B-Genius]

Not me. Bayonetta isn't 'sexy' but 'sexually intimidating'.

It's not like the game is any lacking in phallic symbolism either. Yet, every time she takes her clothes off it's to summon a demon that emasculates or castrates her victims. You should be scared shitless of this woman's sexuality because she's actively using it to victimize you. By castration, no less.

Even the ruggedly handsome comic sidekick never 'gets with her'. He's just 'taking care of the children while mommy goes to work' which is Freudian castration anxiety in a nutshell. It's what makes the whole 'sexist' argument so misplaced because it so utterly misses the point.

I like this. It interests me purely because there's nothing else quite like Bayonetta on the market, both thematically and in terms of the character herself.

If all you seriously take away from the game is:
"female protagonist is powerful because/when she has no clothes"
then you're either being reductive for the sake of argument, or you're not interested in digging further into the subject matter.

Fair enough if you don't want to dig deeper, but don't make out as if this is a blemish on the industry and that everyone who makes light of it is dooming us all. It's not like every female game character is a Bayonetta, after all. Agreed, the vast majority are much worse and don't even try to be clever about it, but don't let that obstruct the blatant tongue-in-cheek fun of Bayonetta.

Otherwise what would we have? Nothing much more than a female Dante, I imagine.

 

[wsippel]

Team Ninja did the coding and some of the visual design. But the story was all Sakamoto.

The story is OK as well, the cutscene and voice direction sucks. Which isn't all that surprising I guess, the director (Ryuzi Kitaura) usually works on commercials and has no experience with directing anything deeper or more emotional. His flashy stuff is fine though.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The use of Bayonetta's hair as summons and "finishing moves" always struck me as working with the strategy of providing a sexy scenario because sure, men will be playing the game and like seeing a sexy female... but making sure there's a twist hidden in that scenario.

If a male player actually does want to oogle Bayonetta when she gets (nearly) naked, fine. Others can look at the same scene and smirk, since for Bayonetta even the act of stripping ultimately works into an aggressive context.

 

[n00bsauce87]

<oversexualized---------------------------------------------------confident>

It seems to be how the spectrum of all female chars are if their character design is called into question. And I feel as though people didn't to group them in the over-sexualized department. I think Bayonetta's agency does wonders for her character design. The writers and devs did her justice, imo.