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[Spieler Eins]

are we really judging people by their avatars?

Are we really judging a game's supposed unethical values by looking at out of context screenshots, provided by biased people that haven't even played it?

This reminds me of outsiders blaming the portrayal of violent acts in pop culture for shootings of some homocidal maniacs back in the day.

 

[Nemmy]

Like for example: at work yesterday this kid came in (around 13) to get hyrule warriors. I asked him if he had seen Bayo 2 since he has a Wii u and seems to like action games. He got excited about the cover obviously but his mother saw it and was instantly like "no, that is not appropriate" and I don't blame her for that at all.

It's 16+, why did you even recommend it to the kid?

 

[TI82]

The game wouldn't be appropriate even if she weren't sexy as it's a character action game and all character action games are rated M. No parent should be buying their kid those games.

And yet he said that he plays god of war, dynasty warriors, etc. It was clearly the sexually charged graphics that made her say no. And yes I know god of war also has sexually charged graphics but it isn't as apparent as bayonettas.

Not to mention I think the rating system in itself is stupid. What changes within a kid from 16 to 17 that magically makes him able to better handle an M rated game?

 

[Datschge]

I think Ninja Theory tried to push DMC more into comedic male sexuality displays...can't really think of anything before that.

Cho Aniki series.

In general male counterpart of the "sexy" aspect for female characters is the bodybuilder appearance of the "strength" aspect for male characters, also plenty widespread in games. Both ultimately touch upon sexuality as at its most primitive level their primary function is to impress the other sex.

 

[SolidSnakex]

And yet he said that he plays god of war, dynasty warriors, etc. It was clearly the sexually charged graphics that made her say no. And yes I know god of war also has sexually charged graphics but it isn't as apparent as bayonettas.

That opens up a completely different can of worms that probably isn't suitable for this thread.

 

[TI82]

That opens up a completely different can of worms that probably isn't suitable for this thread.

Yeah sorry for going off on a tangent. I just don't personally care for the Bayo series art style at all. Me and a friend were playing the demo and he was all "the gameplay is really fun... But I just couldn't buy this game. It would be so awkward to play with anyone else in the room especially my children or wife". Which really sucks since they seem to have poured a lot of good work into the gameplay (his opinion, I don't like these kind of games).

 

[AlucardGV]

"It's from Japan" is not an excuse for poor representation or over-sexualisation of women. Neither is "What do you expect?", as though people should just shut up and take it, like they're the ones at fault for not just blindly accepting whatever is thrown at them.

it's not thrown at you. it's carefully (i hope) placed on stores shelves.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

There's nothing sexy about Bayonetta at all. It's so overdone I'm repulsed by it.

 

[mollipen]

That's how I always saw it.

But you aren't seeing a naked woman. Nearly-naked? Sure. But not naked.

And the idea that it's a "reward" is kind of silly. At most points when that happens, you are far too busy actually playing the game to even look that closely at Bayo herself. Only her finishers give you the chance to really see her, and If you're playing the game in order to see those "rewards", you have far bigger issues than the game's heroine does.

 

[Tesseract]

Are we really judging a game's supposed unethical values by looking at out of context screenshots, provided by biased people that haven't even played it?

This reminds me of outsiders blaming the portrayal of violent acts in pop culture for shootings of some homocidal maniacs back in the day.

hey, i'm on your side there. just calling a fallacy when i sees it, relax.

this is usually where i post a blazing saddles gif ...

 

[Unbounded]

Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

Because ethos.

I'm not going to take your opinion on anything seriously, (even if it agrees with what I may already believe due to my bias), if you don't have any experience with said thing. This goes for books, movies, and show reviews, as well as literally anything else that has ever existed that anyone has ever spoken on.

 

[ninjablade]

Are we really judging a game's supposed unethical values by looking at out of context screenshots, provided by biased people that haven't even played it?

how would anyone be biased against bayonetta? people are giving there opinions on the character based on the out fit looking like a stripper's outfit, high heels for a character in a action game, moves that render the character naked, camera focuses on the character's ass sometimes, bayonetta vagina starts glowing when magic is fully charged up.

 

[Pyramid head]

please explain how the fuck is ninja gaiden black and ninja gaiden 2 sexist, if you're talking about the blond girl in the game, she only shows up like in 1 or 2 cut scenes. it's not something you have to deal with the whole game.

The female characters in the Ninja Gaiden series serve only 1 purpose, and that's to be giant, jiggling, saliva covered tits on legs, complete with boob bouncing controls. There's nothing ccomparable in Bayonetta.

 

[Serpens007]

I agree with Alicia, I think she's right on the spot.

We shouldn't think that every female character is a portrayal of women as a whole gender, Bayonetta is a portrayal of... well, Bayonetta, she is a powerful, strong and sexy woman, but that doesn't mean that every woman should be like it. And also, those aren't bad things.

Anyway, not every female in videogames is there to represent the whole gender. I don't see males saying that Joel is a portrayal of males, or Kratos, etc.

 

[Kinyou]

please explain how the fuck is ninja gaiden black and ninja gaiden 2 sexist, if you're talking about the blond girl in the game, she only shows up like in 1 or 2 cut scenes. it's not something you have to deal with the whole game.

I don't think it's particularly the amount of screentime the characters have that matters if their portrayal would be considered sexist or not. Rachel and Sonia are ultimately just there to titillate and also end up as damsels in distress (Sonia even gets put into a more revealing outfit by the bad guys.)

I don't mind it, but I could see why someone would be turned off by that.

I also dislike the idea that any woman in attractive clothing is implicitly giving permission or even encouraging people with cameras to zoom in on their boobs and ass.

I'm not talking about the clothing, I'm talking about the poses. When Niki Minaj twerks she's probably not surprised that most people will look at her ass at that moment.

The other points were addressed by Pyrrhus (who probably did it more comprehensively than I could)

 

[MoogleWizard]

Why is actually playing the game necessary, though (assuming they watched some videos at least)? And even if it is, how much is required before your opinion on the sexual aspect is valid or not? I played the demo, is that enough?

If I skimmed through a chapter of A Song of Ice and Fire and then judged Arianne Martell as a sexist character because she likes sex and the author describes her body and her big brown nipples in graphic detail for the male gaze, would you say I know enough of the material to judge it, would you consider my opinion valid? I'm using this example because I think you could relate to it.

It's completely ok to not like a game and not play it because you find the character design off-putting. I did the same plenty of times before but I don't discuss those characters and games in detail because I know almost nothing about them. Some of the people in that article have not played the game and they don't just talk about the design, they go on to discuss the character, the game and the role of women in it in detail, which you can't without actually having played the game. Thus, their opinion doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Just read what Gitelman says, she only talks about the character's appearance because that's the only thing she's actually seen. It's like writing a character analysis on Hamlet after reading the back of the book and then putting it back on the shelf.

 

[Dragon]

But you aren't seeing a naked woman. Nearly-naked? Sure. But not naked.

And the idea that it's a "reward" is kind of silly. At most points when that happens, you are far too busy actually playing the game to even look that closely at Bayo herself. Only her finishers give you the chance to really see her, and If you're playing the game in order to see those "rewards", you have far bigger issues than the game's heroine does.

Aren't some of her moves called Climaxes? I admit to not having played either game. But that strikes me as something that's pretty clearly sexual and not sexy which seems to be a distinction that several people in the article mention.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Well I've seen plenty of anime with uber powerful girls and not one of them felt like they were empowering women. Being powerful doesn't actually mean shit in my book.

It's not just about being physically powerful. When you play the game, it becomes pretty obvious that the character is very aware of what she looks like, but it's her decision to be like that, unlike many other fan-service designs. Despite the tropes (high heels, leather, and w/e), her basic proportions aren't really what most would usually call attractive. She's like other characters (perhaps comparable to the No More Heroes dude in my avatar), that might be written to not be the coolest guy inherently, but still like to do their best to act like a badass (which in this case also includes trying to be ,,sexy''), while also being confident in it and not giving a shit about what others think, hence actually making them pretty cool again, for that fact (- plus living in a clearly over the top world to begin with, in Bayonetta's case specifically).

hey, i'm on your side there. just calling a fallacy when i sees it, relax.

this is usually where i post a blazing saddles gif ...

heh, admittedly it is certainly not gentlemen-like to call people out on avatars, but it was just a little too ironic. It's pretty obvious (and I still like the games) that the females in Ninja Gaiden are made to be fapping material first, unlike Bayonetta. So it's kinda awkward seeing someone having strong feelings on the one subject, but not the other.

 

[Dr. Buni]

I am of a similar opinion as Erica Hollinshead, specially when she says:

But I do think its important to leave room for the possibility that sexy doesn't always equal bad.

Emily is a bit too extremist for my tastes. There is a lot of sexism in video games (and media in general), but her approach to the problem is a bit problematic.

Also:

For me, many of the things cited as "bad" about Bayonetta could be charges leveled at me. If Bayonetta's hip pop and tight outfit are bad, then how can I not be "part of the problem" if I gravitate towards tight (or god forbid revealing) clothing, and tend to stand with my hip popped, AND want to create and see characters that are similar to me in that aesthetic? I want to see more female characters who aren't sexy in that way too, but it doesn't mean I never want to see a character who fancies herself a pin up.

This is very interesting. A lot of people who stand against sexy female characters tend to forget that real life females often wear sexy/revealing outfits and they aren't ashamed of that.

 

[ninjablade]

The female characters in the Ninja Gaiden series serve only 1 purpose, and that's to be giant, jiggling, saliva covered tits on legs, complete with boob bouncing controls. There's nothing ccomparable in Bayonetta.

bayonetta is the exact samething except she's the main character and hero, of course she has a purpose. as for ninja gaiden those parts bothered mi a bit, but thankfully they were over quickly, it's just a small part of the game, that it doesn't bother me enough to put me off the game. if the main character was the blond girl in ninja gaiden, i would never buy it.

 

[IvorB]

I actually love hack and slash games but what I saw of the main character put me off playing it completely. She just seemed to epitomise everything that was wrong with portrayal of women in gaming. I'm still not sure about her. I mean, she strips off to naked during combat. If that's not male pandering I don't know what is.

 

[Vizzeh]

There is surely a place for sexy done right.. It's a problem if even from a female perspective it can't be agreed on what that is, it's just difference of opinion that needs common sense attached too it without over - doing it.

I'm not sure you can compare the male bodybuilder image on male chars as the same, although quite obviously used a lot, they are not sexualised for the female gamer in mind, more of a 'men want to be him' approach.

 

[RMI]

I absolutely adore Bayonetta. This is a female character who absolutely dominates and embarrasses every male character she interacts with in the game. The only characters she seems to have any respect for whatsoever are other females (Jeanne and Cereza). It's not often that we see characters like this.

Also extremely amused at the Vivian James thing in here. I can't believe anyone is taking that crap seriously.

 

[MoogleWizard]

bayonetta is the exact samething except she's the main character and hero, of course she has a purpose. as for ninja gaiden those parts bothered mi a bit, but thankfully they were over quickly, it's just a small part of the game, that it doesn't bother me enough to put me off the game. if the main character was the blond girl in ninja gaiden, i would never buy it.

No, she isn't. She has a personality and characterization for starters, she's in control and no decoration for the male main character, and except for some skin on her back, she's completely covered up 95% of the game etc. But whatever, keep complaining about games you haven't played, no sense responding to you anyway. One would think you'd get tired of it eventually, the obsession you have with this game is quite strange, I must say.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If I skimmed through a chapter of A Song of Ice and Fire and then judged Arianne Martell as a sexist character because she likes sex and the author describes her body and her big brown nipples in graphic detail for the male gaze, would you say I know enough of the material to judge it, would you consider my opinion valid? I'm using this example because I think you could relate to it.

It's completely ok to not like a game and not play it because you find the character design off-putting. I did the same plenty of times before but I don't discuss those characters and games in detail because I know almost nothing about them. Some of the people in that article have not played the game and they don't just talk about the design, they go on to discuss the character, the game and the role of women in it in detail, which you can't without actually having played the game. Thus, their opinion doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Just read what Gitelman says, she only talks about the character's appearance because that's the only thing she's actually seen. It's like writing a character analysis on Hamlet after reading the back of the book and then putting it back on the shelf.

Yeah, I don't really disagree by the way. I addressed this here.

 

[Clockwork5]

I read the opinions in the OP. Not very interesting, at all. Bayonetta is meant to have a certain level of sex appeal. Some people of either gender will take issue with that, some won't.

 

[Unbounded]

I actually love hack and slash games but what I saw of the main character put me off playing it completely. She just seemed to epitomise everything that was wrong with portrayal of women in gaming. I'm still not sure about her. I mean, she strips off to naked during combat. If that's not male pandering I don't know what is.

Out of all the people who play and love the game, how many do you think actually view Bayonetta as a sexual fantasy of theirs?

 

[whatever77]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway. I don't agree with the idea that you need to assign any more social value judgement on it. Average gamers age is very high, they know what its a tasteful character design what is a tacky design.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter. Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

 

[TI82]

Aren't some of her moves called Climaxes? I admit to not having played either game. But that strikes me as something that's pretty clearly sexual and not sexy which seems to be a distinction that several people in the article mention.

Climaxes is a pretty common term in games. Not (usually) sexual intentionally.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway. I don't agree with the idea that you need to assign any more social value judgement on it. Average gamers age is very high, they know what its a tasteful character design what is a tacky design.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter. Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

Punishing. I think you mean punishing.

And you can't really say the market is punishing Bayonetta for being sexy. The gaming market just wants to be force fed with ads, and then buy things based off those ads.

Aren't some of her moves called Climaxes? I admit to not having played either game. But that strikes me as something that's pretty clearly sexual and not sexy which seems to be a distinction that several people in the article mention.

You do know what a 'Climax' is, in a literal point do you? In story telling it's usually the 'high' point of the story-in an action movie, it's usually the big fight scene before the conclusion. Using a 'climax' in Bayos sense, it's literally when she uses her biggest move or something similar to finish off an enemy, before the combat dies down.

 

[TatteredHat]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway. I don't agree with the idea that you need to assign any more social value judgement on it. Average gamers age is very high, they know what its a tasteful character design what is a tacky design.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter. Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

I think the low sales have a lot more to do with it being on a very unpopular platform than Bayonetta's character design.

 

[Windpower]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway. I don't agree with the idea that you need to assign any more social value judgement on it. Average gamers age is very high, they know what its a tasteful character design what is a tacky design.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter. Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

this is a really stupid take on this. The way women are treated in GTAV is arguably a thousand times worse and that game broke records; sales have nothing to do with this shit. Platinum Game's poor sales are usually a result of the "difficult" gameplay.

 

[Nemmy]

You do know what a 'Climax' is, in a literal point do you? In story telling it's usually the 'high' point of the story-in an action movie, it's usually the big fight scene before the conclusion. Using a 'climax' in Bayos sense, it's literally when she uses her biggest move or something similar to finish off an enemy, before the combat dies down.

To be fair, in Bayonetta's context it's kind of hard to not view "Climax" as an innuendo. That's how I always saw it, anyway.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

To be fair, in Bayonetta's context it's kind of hard to not view "Climax" as an innuendo. That's how I always saw it, anyway.

Yeah, it's smart innuendo. As a front, its literally a sex joke, but then you realize that you Climax when you reach that high point in action before it goes into a cutscene or the combat dies down. It wouldn't work if it just randomly popped up on the screen whenever-Then it'd just be a poor sex joke.

 

[whatever77]

I think the low sales have a lot more to do with it being on a very unpopular platform than Bayonetta's character design.

No I mrant Boyonetta 1. It wasn't popular enough to get picked up by Sega for a sequel. I was not talking about B2.

I wish Boyonetta was a character I could relate to, IMO its hard to finish a fighting game if you dont care about the character whatsoever.

 

[KingSnake]

I think it is way more sexist to say "I don't need to know her full story, but I saw how she looks/pictures/videos, I formed already my opinion about her as a character, all she does is to please the men"

 

[Zomba13]

bayonetta is the exact samething except she's the main character and hero, of course she has a purpose. as for ninja gaiden those parts bothered mi a bit, but thankfully they were over quickly, it's just a small part of the game, that it doesn't bother me enough to put me off the game. if the main character was the blond girl in ninja gaiden, i would never buy it.

Personally, I feel it's more sexist if the female characters are unimportant and brushed to the side and only show up in revealing clothes or get caught to further player motivation (omg those tits man! I gotta save me those tits!). At least with Bayonetta she is the main character, the one fighting 30 foot tall monsters, the one saving the planet (and I guess the other plains of existence). She is the one with power over these massive, grotesque demons that do her bidding not because she is "teh sexy lady!!!" but because she has power and control over them, because she is strong.

I think it's more telling that you wouldn't play a game if "the blond girl" was the main character but would play one where she shows up in cutscenes to titillate and then buggers off with no importance once you've had your fill. A game with her as the main character would have to display her strength and power and how she is a capable female warrior despite being put into revealing clothing. And I guess that is frightening for you?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway.

Think you meant to write "punishing" but.... You sure the real reason for the low sale is that? Evidence please. I'd say being published on Wii U and being a niche game to begin with are far bigger reasons for its low sales. Come on son.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter.

lol, Kamiya's just gonna block them. He might even do that if you praise the design, mind. It seems to be generally a bad idea to talk to him on Twitter about anything.

Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

"Whore it out"? WTF is this?

People can blog about whatever the fuck they want. Free speech doesn't apply just to video game character designs, for crying out loud.

Amazingly, many of the people who bitched about the Polygon review said this sort of critique belonged in a blog rather than a review. I guess they can't win.

 

[TatteredHat]

No I mrant Boyonetta 1. It wasn't popular enough to get picked up by Sega for a sequel. I was not talking about B2.

I wish Boyonetta was a character I could relate to, IMO its hard to finish a fighting game if you dont care about the character whatsoever.

That's not a problem exclusive to Bayonetta though, a lot of franchises don't get sequels because publishers deem them unworthy. As I recall the game still sold over a million copies. Aside from that, character action games aren't a very accessible genre to wider audiences, leading to lower sales as well.

 

[whatever77]

this is a really stupid take on this. The way women are treated in GTAV is arguably a thousand times worse and that game broke records; sales have nothing to do with this shit. Platinum Game's poor sales are usually a result of the "difficult" gameplay.

You can argue that GTAV didnt treat woman well but its realistic. It goes a looooong way to make the game world immersive. The whole Beyonatte over world is ....one of the worst over world I have ever played. It has no redeeming value.

 

[SolidSnakex]

No I mrant Boyonetta 1. It wasn't popular enough to get picked up by Sega for a sequel. I was not talking about B2.

I wish Boyonetta was a character I could relate to, IMO its hard to finish a fighting game if you dont care about the character whatsoever.

Bayonetta's sales are actually standard for the character action genre. It sold over 1m but less than 2m. The GoW franchise and DMC1/4 are the only games in that genre that have managed to sell above 2m. MGRising might be on that list as well, but we don't have hard data for it.

 

[nOoblet16]

I would like to believe that Bayonetta is in control of her sexuality and owns it and etc etc. But at the end of the day it is a creation....by a dude. When you realise that it changes the perspective.

 

[MoogleWizard]

The market is already publishing Beyonatta for its terrible character design with lower sales anyway. I don't agree with the idea that you need to assign any more social value judgement on it. Average gamers age is very high, they know what its a tasteful character design what is a tacky design.

Anyone has problem with Kamiya's designs, take it directly him through twitter. Don't whore it out on a blog to get more clicks.

What is so terrible and tacky about these designs?

When "sexy" game characters usually look like this:

It honestly baffles me that Bayonetta's designs get so much more attention than shit like this. Bayo's designs are very classy compared to what you usually get as "sexy females" in games.

 

[Windpower]

You can argue that GTAV didnt treat woman well but its realistic. It goes a looooong way to make the game world immersive. The whole Beyonatte over world is ....one of the worst over world I have ever played. It has no redeeming value.

yeah man so realistic to just portray all the women characters as annoying or just sex objects, so immersive. Please stop fucking talking.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I would like to believe that Bayonetta is in control of her sexuality and owns it and etc etc. But at the end of the day it is a creation....by a dude. When you realise that it changes the perspective.

And when you realize that the character of Bayonetta was created by a woman, what strawman are you going to pull off next?

 

[Zomba13]

yeah man so realistic to just portray all the women characters as annoying or just sex objects, so immersive. Please stop fucking talking.

Well yeah! You can't expect someone to get behind a woman saving the world and having magic powers and controlling demons? I mean, gtfo lady, this is Dante's world.

 

[ninjablade]

Bayonetta's sales are actually standard for the character action genre. It sold over 1m but less than 2m. The GoW franchise and DMC1/4 are the only games in that genre that have managed to sell above 2m. MGRising might be on that list as well, but we don't have hard data for it.

That not true at all , if that was the standard then the action genre dead, MGSR, ninja gaiden 2 along with sigma 2, DMC4 and GOW franchise all sold much better, bayonetta was a no show on NPD, and in europe charts it was only saved by japan and the bargain bin.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What is so terrible and tacky about these designs?

Well honestly, the second character looks far worse than the GTA poster girl to me (purely from an artistic design point of view, mind). The GTA poster girl is just a girl in a bikini. But Jeanne's spine in the second pic is just... O_O I really hate that kind of bendy-spine serpent look. It's not necessarily about the amount of skin being showed. (Keep in mind I am not defending GTA from anything, I can't even stand those games. I just see nothing particularly egregious about a random girl in a bikini, unless I'm missing context.)

The others you posted are way trashier though, I agree. (Edit: see Einbroch's post shortly below mine. That's probably the thing, everyone would agree too.)

 

[redcrayon]

Emily Gitelman: I think the female characters in Bayonetta are presented incredibly poorly, and certainly over sexualized. They're a male fantasy, completely. I'm going to focus on Bayonetta herself. To start with her physical appearance, Bayonetta is built like a super model, has a sexy English accent, and walks around in a skin-tight catsuit that disappears and basically gives her censor bars when she casts spells. It's practically a reward for the player: use a powerful attack; see a naked woman. As soon as Bayonetta displays power, she is stripped of her clothing and her dignity. When her health runs too low, her catsuit also disappears. The symbolism (lip marks, flowers, butterflies) used in her attacks is very stereotypically feminine in a way that box female sexuality into a narrow category. These are calculated ways of making her seem like a Strong Female Character, but they actually undercut her agency and power as the lead character of a franchise.

One bit that stood out for me here is that apparently having an English accent is sexualisation. I think that's Gitelman putting her own cultural take on it as some people find some accents more pleasant than others. I'm English and don't put on an English accent to be sexy, it's just the way I talk!

If you see your own country's accent as the neutral, safe and valueless default and other ones as more sexy/less attractive, that's all on you and displays a lack of self-awareness regarding how others might see your accent, it doesn't prove a designer's attempt to titillate. It would be like me saying that a character having an American accent is a blatant attempt to imply another social value, rather than the character just being American. Ridiculous.

I realise this may be hard for the author to understand, but a nice lady from the US works in my office, and to us her accent is the vaguely exotic one. It doesn't mean anyone thinks that means anything.

 

[joe2187]

I would like to believe that Bayonetta is in control of her sexuality and owns it and etc etc. But at the end of the day it is a creation....by a dude. When you realise that it changes the perspective.

So men cant write/create female characters without being sexist?

Ok.