PfantzyPantz
Member
That won't work on him because the women aren't showing their bums to the camera.
I don't post in these topics because I get too angry, but I'm happy to see all the good folk here. Gaf really is dabes.
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Zoë Quinn writes on games industry's reaction to harassment "Risky Business"
- Thread starter ElNarez
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That won't work on him because the women aren't showing their bums to the camera.
I don't post in these topics because I get too angry, but I'm happy to see all the good folk here. Gaf really is dabes.
BobbyRobby
Member
Women like seeing beautiful women as well. The Victoria's secret fashion shows are viewed largely by women.
Women love game of thrones. Almost every girl I know watches it, and after the Beatles, it is the most frequent common interest I see when using Tinder.
Not all women identify as feminist, and not all that do are sex negative.
We shouldn't discount the voice of those that dislike sexualized women. They are a market that should be catered to, but we also should not be treating them as the sole representative voice of women.
So for me it is odd to see something like the Witcher excoriated when it is pretty much what I see in an episode of GoT, or tamer even.
I think a great example of this in the industry is Kinu Nishimura. She was at Capcom, now she's freelance, and she's even had a key design role in Code of Princess. She' s getting more and more freedom. Yet the women she draws have skimpier clothes as time goes on. Apparently, some women just like sexy ladies. Who knew?
The irony is that those people will definitely be criticizing games (especially story) outside of this thread.
but GOD FORBID A WOMEN DOES IT ON TOPICS ABOUT WOMEN.
Also the whole "Anita criticizes about scantily clad women, THAT MEANS SHE WANTS TO TAKE IT COMPLETELY AWAY AND TAKE GAMES AWAY FROM GAMERS" is a standard GG talking point.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Well yeah, not only men appreciate the female form but that post is almost wholly irrelevant to the post it quoted, or the post to which H.P. was replying. The original issue was antipathy toward people pushing for more varied representations in gaming born from a need to see digital T&A.
The selective reads
Game of Thrones has a wide variety of sexual situations. While it has been known for having sexual content that panders one way, it also features a large amount of sexual content designed to titillate straight women and gay men. It features gay sex scenes and glamor shots of "beautiful men" intended to titillate for the "wife" watching the show. (Obviously, the appeal goes beyond that, I'm using the term for sake of illustrating a point)
It's okay for pornographic content to be a part of something, but it sucks for people who are turned off by what's being "offered". There is something to be said for the author telling the story they want to tell, and that not everything should try to pander to every audience, but the "beautiful, sexy man" is a character that can be upsetting to the traditional male demographic, seen as something "getting in the way". It's more common to see that side ignored with preference shown to super-charging "beautiful sexy women". (it's a complicated issue and the answer isn't to force one thing or another, it's hard to do more than just mull on it.)
It's a complex problem, as when you deal with sexual content you are dealing with content that largely is *supposed* to pander to an audience. Balancing diversity and avoiding alienating audiences becomes so much more difficult when talking about sex content, and it's a problem that is easier to avoid, rather than pursue.
I think the idea of removing sexual content all together from adult content is ridiculous. People have different tastes, and conservatism is no more "correct" than liberal. Equality and transparency are the best way to handle this, as it lets people know what they're getting, and it's good for everyone to "get what they want".
In Witcher 2, it's largely content for "dudes that like chicks". And that's fine. It sucks that there's not more diversity, but the main character is not a true vessel. He's an established character that exists within a larger fiction. It'd be like taking your expectations of Commander Shepard into a Star Trek game. It really just depends on what the "thing" itself is. Not everything is for everyone, nor should it be. Everyone should at least have something for them, even if it's not all the same things.
I don't know why I'm going on so much about this. I feel like my post almost has no point at this point.
I read her whole post as well, and I'm not sure I agree with you that the industry is embarrassing, or her that some great injustice has been committed by big game pubs and devs. The industry exists to make money, first and foremost. Why won't they hire Quinn's boyfriend? Well, there are three groups of gamers:
-DGAF about GamerGate
-Do care about GamerGate, don't support Quinn, her boyfriend is toxic to this segment
-Do care about GamerGate, do support Quinn
And I think that's probably the order of size/relevance to the AAA gaming market, from greatest to least. So why would a big game studio take a chance on alienating the bulk of their customer base to appease a small minority? By not hiring the man, it's not like the anti-GG folks will stop buying games altogether.
I do think that the gaming industry needs more diversity. I strongly believe that too many of the portrayals of women and minorities in gaming, even in 2015, still absolutely suck. I'm just not sure that companies have some moral obligation to ensure that diversity.
Hopefully mobile gaming is the pathway for developers of a broader swath of life to reach the mainstream.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Witcher 1 got stick because it reduced women to collectable cards. It's the objectification, not the butts. The butts have people attached to them.
This is another thread-derail, but I will bite.
There is no issue with men or women expressing themselves sexually.
There is no issue with men or women wearing sexy/erotic clothes.
There is a problem when women are exclusively designed to pander to male interests. That goes against sexual expression and is nothing but sexual objectification.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The industry at large is embarrassing because it remains silent regarding a long-term organized harassment campaign targeted at a portion of its colleagues, out of fear of losing profits generated by the purchases of an extremely loud and obnoxious minority, who are in turn fanned by people with no attachment to or interest in the future of gaming, for their own political ends.
Do you think other entertainment industries would just lean back while such a thing happened?
The games industry is still extremely immature, and the way it's handled Gamergate shows it. Hell, they even publicly awarded Total Biscuit, months into Gamergate and after he'd publicly sided with some of its figureheads and ideologies. Although the award itself was a fan vote, they could have shown some scrote and junked it. But as you yourself say, their main concern is profit, not integrity or the well being of course creators/academics.
There is obviously no inherent obligation toward diversity in representation, but even then from a profit standpoint, why actively alienate potential customers? When people express a desire to buy something, why not take steps to provide it? An intelligent business does not succumb to the irrationally of a portion of its customer base. Gamergaters would still by the annual mass-produced GOTY-wank if those same publishers actually took risks on other things as well.
I sincerely hope that people who are offended by the idea of more kinds of games alongside 2D tits and ass are not the bulk of gamers now. And again, from a business standpoint, Quinn's ex does not seem to be a good hire. It's highly dubious that someone as qualified or better qualified and without the huge failings he has displayed is not available.
BobbyRobby
Member
The thread was derailed because someone dug through delta's post history and found he admired a digital ass. Then a bunch of people piled on him trying to shame him saying patronizing stuff like "no one wants to take away your boobies," and the post I responded to which said his admiration for said ass was embarrassing.
It's regressive and sex negative and I didn't like that it was being used to discount him.
John Kowalski
Banned
Even corporations are beholden to ethical concerns. Them being first and foremost about generating capital does not mean that they should be any less concerned with their practices.
He voiced bis demand for sexual opression. Anyway, lets stop here and not make the derail not even worse.
BrutishMrFish
Member
And given its repeated practice of ignoring the vast potential for increasing their customer base and profits by diversifying their portrayal of women and minorities, the industry isn't doing itself any favors.
GamerGate is loud, but it is by no means the bulk of the AAA gaming market's customer base. The problem is that these are corporate giants who have the ability to stamp out a particularly toxic segment of the gaming community, and they didn't. They saw people being harassed, threatened, and doxxed, and they did nothing.
Regardless of the purpose of the industry, that's pretty fucking embarrassing.
Perhaps not. But companies should have a moral obligation to ensure that a part of their customer base doesn't hurt anyone. At the very least, they should ask themselves why their games appeal to such a hateful group of people. If you wrote a book that gained a huge following of klansmen or neo-nazis, wouldn't you at least want to know why they liked your writing so much?
But the industry won't do that, because that would require introspection, and effort, and all the things that well-rounded adults (people who are sorely missing in the games industry) are supposed to have.
I feel like "problem" is a weak way to declare this, because I have to admit that context is everything. Sexual Objectification is only a problem within a context. Not all contexts create that problem. There is a such thing as playing a role for others' sake. Sex is a relationship, and can involve one dominant party and one subservient party, while still remaining healthy for both parties. The way I see it, transparency or self-aware qualities help. Adults have a right to titillating content that panders to them. Dictating to others what they should enjoy or dedicate their time to is an unfair act.
Frankly, adults should be allowed to have their pornography. The problem doesn't come from that, as many adults have a healthy, harmless relationship with their pornographic materials. The problem more comes from unhealthy people treating others in harmful manners, passively or aggressively. It is not just the concept of sexual objectification alone that becomes a problem, but rather it is a harmful exploitative context where the problem will exist. It is a complex issue that cannot be simplified into bite size statements. There are no "easy truths", context is everything.
If it's focused on making money, it should be hiring good producers (HEYOO). Plus, a company is doing a very non-profitable move of alienating a new base of customers, namely the one's that are often the target of GG's harassment.
And I don't understand how standing up to GG would alienate a bulk of gamers. If many gamers DGAF about GG, then they wouldn't give anymore if the industry flipped the bird at Gators.
Companies do have a moral obligation because they are run by people. People have moral obligations. Especially if companies themselves are now considered people.
Hollywood certainly does lean back when things get bad. I mean, an actress wears anything and she's judged and ridiculed by the same media that covers movie news. Entertainment industries as a whole seem pretty shitspined, but gaming certainly crafted its specially distilled shit-tier of evil beyond the par of everything else.
BlastProcessing
Member
There is a difference between a character who is sexually attractive and a character who is only sexually attractive with no other element.
Which is one of Sarkeesian's precise points.
Sexuality is incredibly complex. It is something that should be talked about and discussed. delta is being criticized in this thread because he seems uncomfortable with the concept of people talking about sex and gender in games at all.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You're still avoiding the question. Last try:
If you don't care about representation, why do you care if someone tries to change it?
Is it so hard for you to admit that you, in fact, do care?
Absolutely ludicrous. In no medium is a review ever objective and video games are no exception. And if someone's enjoyment of a product is lessened because they don't like the colour schemes or because they don't like the gender or ethnic representation in the characters or because they think the controls are too floaty, then they have a right to mention that in their review. It's useful information even if you disagree. If you don't care about the colour schemes/characters/controls, it changes nothing for you, the reader, but if you do, then you will be able to make a more informed decision.
There is nothing regressive or sex negative about making fun someone drooling over a polygonal ass. Hey, sometimes I make comments about how damn hawt Gabriel Belmont is, and if someone made fun of me for it I'd agree with them because it's all just silliness.
But yes, clearly, in a thread about a woman so harassed she was driven out of her home, delta is the real victim here. (eye roll)
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
That wasn't my point.
The point was that "because I like watching dem asses" being a good enough reason is inherently sexist.
GoonerTRON
Banned
Victoria secret is actually trying to sell those undies to woman.
Game of thrones has alot of man on man sex, it is never really been a show for men only.
Cow Mengde
Banned
This really is one of the saddest and most depressing hobbies out there.
Right, and this is fucking stupid. Like your money isn't good enough for us. Expanding to reach a border audience? No way man!!!
Right, and this is fucking stupid. Like your money isn't good enough for us. Expanding to reach a border audience? No way man!!!
You realize that every time someone tries to do that in gaming, there's this contingent of gamers that is actively hostile to that change.
It's creepy how afraid of change gamers are.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
True, but even with Hollywood and all it's problems, I don't think they'd let a Z-stringer in an unrelated field kick off and fan the flames of targeted harassment of female directors/critics under the flimsy guise of ethics in film journalism.
Cow Mengde
Banned
I know that. That's part of the reason I think this hobby is sad and depressing.
silvermember
Banned
You are correct the industry exist to make money and yet don't you find it strange how they are internationally locking out potentially 50% of the human being by not expanding pass the horny males.
Core gaming is currently shrinking while more and more people including women are playing more mobile games, it would be in the industry's best interest to try and appeal more to women since they represent 50% of the population.
Damnit you're correct,
it IS sad and depressing.
I think the only positive thing I can take from it all is that it gave me an incredible outlook into how conservative thinking emerge.
Soren_lost
Member
Witness him!
To be fair though, I blame the publishers for gamers getting angry when they say they're trying to appeal to a larger, broader audience. A lot of the times in the past, "appealing to a wider audience" usually meant "appealing to the Call of Duty audience" as publishers turned games and established franchises to become more "realistic", more shooty-bang, cinematic, more linear, easier, forced in the multiplayer mode, etc., etc to try to get that Call of Duty cash.
I think it's more lax now, but some gamers still fear that statement because, to them, it means ruining the games they love.
Even so, it's more depressing and sad knowing that the industry itself caused this issue.
Considering how gamers bemoaned stuffs like Wii, facebook games and the mobile game industry I wouldn't blame publishers too far either.
I'd hope not.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The thing about that...
At the onset, console gaming was marketed as toys for children. As those children began to grow up, marketing departments felt that they had to change the positioning to appeal to a different frame of mind; some of this came about from focus testing, and some of it came about because of a fairly universally recognized core demographic in America.
Game related marketing did go fairly hard on creating the "hardcore" gamer and a lot of people lapped it up while feeling purchase based satisfaction and a warped sense of belonging because they bought the big budget, heavily marketed games. Marketing pumped the shit out of this for years while the industry itself remained pretty homogeneous, so it wasn't until more people began to speak up about representation that they even began to register an anomaly.
Personally, I think Leigh Alexander's piece about these kinds of gamers not needing to be the target audience for everything is dealing with this idea. By limiting the representation of gamers/gaming that the industry itself presents, they limit what they're able to do and who they're able to appeal to. So in that light, the industry is indeed culpable. It wasn't until they took it upon themselves to pidgeonhole who people who play video games are and what "real" video games are (while also starting the dumbass console wars) that gamers began to buy into it en masse.
Hey have you guys played nier yet
you should play nier
I get that (the things I would tell you about the shitty marketing I've seen in this industry...), still it's all kind of funny seeing the people that fell for that cheap marketing going on about how the mainstream public is falling for some cheap marketing.
The thing I know is that most gamers aren't very self-aware.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Throughout my adult life, I have worked in three major industries; finance, where I helped big banks and fat cats avoid significant amounts in taxes, immigration law, where we made money off largely poor and uneducated people desperate to make a better life for themselves and big pharma, with all the baggage that industry has.
And yet the video game industry is somehow more pathetic and toxic than anything I've seen and experienced in the above.
And yet the video game industry is somehow more pathetic and toxic than anything I've seen and experienced in the above.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Tye The Czar
Member
I seriously doubt that the industry will keep quiet if HaterGate even attempts to follow through with their threats. If such a thing ever happened, it would cause a moral panic nearly on the same levels as Columbine.
Megidolaon
Member
I just wanna add in my 2 cents as a female who loves hardcore games this GG discussion. I absolutely am influenced by the way women are portrayed in games. A strong or negative impression is a big deal for me in both eastern and western games. I'm not asking for the industry to suddenly become some kind of radically different politically correct environment. But I definitely appreciate when my gender is portrayed in a relatable and enjoyable way. I do not need the women to be unattractive or have no sex appeal, either. Just good characters. And that goes for male characters, too. I like when they are not pure embodiments of every male stereotype.
Whether it's Western AAA or the Japanese fanservice, I am put off by oversexualized women. So are all the female gamers I know. I'm not saying I never play a game with them, but I wish it weren't so much. I don't speak for every female, but there are women who love games who would love more of them but see the majority of them as off puttingly male focused.
The male focused games are not bad, but more diversity would be nice. My money is just as good. There's a reason why my sisters were glued to the screen when I played TLoU compared to other mainstream games and P3/4 compared to many other JP games I've played. Both had great non stereotypical characters of both genders in compelling scenarios. I don't think those games are alienating to males, either. The difference is they don't automatically assume that since I'm a woman, I wouldn't be interested, so they aren't designed with some GG mentality of "these games aren't for you, your tastes shouldn't influence men's hobby"
Whether it's Western AAA or the Japanese fanservice, I am put off by oversexualized women. So are all the female gamers I know. I'm not saying I never play a game with them, but I wish it weren't so much. I don't speak for every female, but there are women who love games who would love more of them but see the majority of them as off puttingly male focused.
The male focused games are not bad, but more diversity would be nice. My money is just as good. There's a reason why my sisters were glued to the screen when I played TLoU compared to other mainstream games and P3/4 compared to many other JP games I've played. Both had great non stereotypical characters of both genders in compelling scenarios. I don't think those games are alienating to males, either. The difference is they don't automatically assume that since I'm a woman, I wouldn't be interested, so they aren't designed with some GG mentality of "these games aren't for you, your tastes shouldn't influence men's hobby"
VibratingDonkey
Member
Makes me think of that one time Gamergate believed proto-Gamergate's old fabricated bullshit about Sarkeesian being hired by EA as a consultant for Mirror's Edge 2. For the couple of days this was happening, gaters posted a petition and some videos on Youtube.
Elephants and mice indeed. Frustrating to hear that it's like this.
With similarly appropriate timing, also this thing regarding law enforcement.
Gamergate consists of a bunch of gross and/or stupid parts, some larger, some smaller, some intersect, others don't, but they're all Gamergate. An individual is part of Gamergate, which part(s) that is you don't know until they reveal it, but regardless, it's going to be some degree of gross and/or stupid. I've stopped caring which, as in as a baseline I have no respect or patience for anyone in Gamergate, tend to ignore or dismiss anything they have to say on certain topics, but I also tend to take care in separating individuals from the overall movement.
This ramble is at least making sense to me at this moment. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you grow more lucid or dumber with sleepiness.
Elephants and mice indeed. Frustrating to hear that it's like this.
This popped up on my twitter some hours ago.
With similarly appropriate timing, also this thing regarding law enforcement.
Gamergate consists of a bunch of gross and/or stupid parts, some larger, some smaller, some intersect, others don't, but they're all Gamergate. An individual is part of Gamergate, which part(s) that is you don't know until they reveal it, but regardless, it's going to be some degree of gross and/or stupid. I've stopped caring which, as in as a baseline I have no respect or patience for anyone in Gamergate, tend to ignore or dismiss anything they have to say on certain topics, but I also tend to take care in separating individuals from the overall movement.
This ramble is at least making sense to me at this moment. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you grow more lucid or dumber with sleepiness.
This is incredibly obvious from the marketing in the 90s. Though the 3DO was a big flop this ad is kind of a microcosm of what was going on.
Ironically enough when the PS1 and Wii tried advertising more for the general public (though the PS1 was also great at swaying the hard core) they both saw insane growth.
Its not change that concerns me, its the people who are trying to change it. As I said in the beginning, I strongly disagree with the harassment theses woman have received, but I most certainly disagree with their views on gaming and the changes they feel are needed. As far as the industry itself is concerned, I very much support their ideas for equality for women in the workforce. But I'm not about to let someone like Anita Sarkeesian or Zoë Quinn tell whats right and whats wrong with video games.
That was very well pointed and said.
But, people like that don't exist in a vacuum - they're the product of an environment. If it's easier to run from that, they will. We all run from things. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel anger, I just think that is important for everyone to bear in mind, because if we lose that, we forget we're fighting for peace, rather than fighting against these uh, evil teens or whatever. But I think this article does a good job at teaching by demonstrating what it's like to be on the writer's end.
Zomba13
Member
What if it was another woman? Like Jade Raymond or Amy Hennig? What if they wanted more female representation in video games (as in the actual games and not just the industry)?
There are hundreds of straight white male protagonists in gaming, what's wrong if some men and women feel there should be more diversity in games? What's wrong with if the next Mass Effect had the female character be the default (like there was the default ManShep in all the marketing and box art etc)? Would it really matter to you?
No one will take away what you like. There are so many games last gen featuring bald/shaved headed white men and there will be plenty more. There will be plenty more with male leads and sexy women. What's wrong with there just being more good female leads or games with less objectification?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Who will you let tell what's right and wrong in videogames?
Neither Sarkeesian or Quinn claim to be the authority on the matter. Only GG clowns see it that way. Do you even know why Quinn is getting harrassed? Do you know what Sarkeesian is doing in her videos? Do you know what a media critic is?
I guess it would depend on how they went about it, taken 100,000 plus dollars and making a bunch of videos on whats wrong with video games isn't the kind change I'm looking for. Why not take the money and put it towards the development of a game that better suites what their looking for in gaming, why not use the money to help fund indie developers in making games that represent equality for woman.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Are you suggesting it is better to let the problem fix itself?
Critical analysis is a vital part of growth both personally as well as commercially. One can't go about fixing problems they aren't aware exist.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Save your keystrokes people, it's not worth the effort
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