I'm pretty sure sexism in gaming has always been a well know and documented thing, even before gamergate came to town. Its know surprises that it's there, after all, sexism is something that is well represented in all mediums of entertainment, IMO if you want to try and change it, why not actually work within in the medium itself instead of criticizing it.
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Zoë Quinn writes on games industry's reaction to harassment "Risky Business"
- Thread starter ElNarez
- Start date
I'm pretty sure sexism in gaming has always been a well know and documented thing, even before gamergate came to town. Its know surprises that it's there, after all, sexism is something that is well represented in all mediums of entertainment, IMO if you want to try and change it, why not actually work within in the medium itself instead of criticizing it.
EdibleKnife
Member
All media benefits from critique as much as it does creation and Quinn herself is a creator. This entire debacle started from a game that she made yet somehow she's included in the abuse as one of the "feminazis trying to destroy games". Fact is we have both and critique helps in actually getting consumers and creators to view their medium in a different perspective. I don't know why you include critique in the first place when that's half of what this very forum runs on. Anita and people like her just provide a different kind of critique that is of no more or less harmful to the industry than a critique of publisher practices or gameplay styles.
So do you think Roger Ebert should have chose a different career? Should Rolling Stone, Spin, The Source, XXL and other Music Magazines shut down? How about the New Yorker or the New York Times Book review? This is what your are saying right? If they want different things they should either make the entertainment themselves or shut up? That is your opinion on all these forms of entertainment criticism, analysis, and reviews right?
criticism is only one aspects of what theses company's provide.
EdibleKnife
Member
And Anita is an individual not a company. All critics, analysts, and reviewers are individuals. So what are you getting at?
BrutishMrFish
Member
Well, the bolded is a good sign. At least you've got some empathy and decency -
And there it is. Never mind.
So, if it were someone other than Anita or Zoe attempting to drive change, you'd be okay with it? Is this a personal reason or something?
Developers are part of the industry itself. Publishers are part of the industry itself. Video games are part of the industry itself. Reviewers and critics are part of the industry, and they do exactly what you say Anita and Zoe are doing. Feel free to ignore them, like you might with any reviewer.
The words you're looking for here are "accepting donations."
So you would sooner have a critic produce their own game, something that they have no experience with, rather than actively discuss video games? Would you rather have a bad game instead of any discussion at all?
I don't know how old you are, but you shouldn't need reminding that there was a time not too long ago when people who seriously discussed video games were mocked. Discussion is really important.
That's something that you were against earlier in this thread, what with the whole "they're going to take away my pixelated butts away" thing. If all developers decided to bring your worst fears to fruition, you would still be complaining about it, at which point you would be more like how you perceive Anita and Zoe to be.
Is there any pleasing you at all?
Also, if you have any criticism about modern games - whether they be related to overpriced DLC or buggy releases or whatever - remember this thread. Think to yourself, "Why don't I make my own game?"
Then if you put a bit more thought into it, you'll hopefully realize why that's a stupid idea.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Of course, but none of them are involved in a creative role like you're suggesting Anita take up. So, what, you'd take Anita more seriously if she was also posting videos about video game news? Because I somehow doubt that's your silver bullet.
Let's focus on that aspect then. Do you believe they should drop those aspects then? Don't try to change the question just answer, do you believe these sources have the right to criticism,analysis, and reviews?
Quinn does that. Quinn is a developer.
Sarkeesian does not do that. Sarkeesian is a media critic. She critics media.
This thread is about Quinn. You have to accept both decisions, which are both changing the industry.
Btw, do you have a point besides media critics shouldn't critize media because reasons?
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Anita's work does so by providing specific examples for those who wish to make change. Those who don't, can freely ignore her work. People often do not recognize the faults in their own work and having an outside perspective helps them to achieve their goals.
I'm not sure he can even do that. I hit him with a list of critics throught multiple media and got moved goalposts of its only one aspect of what they do. It's just one long elaborate dance around the elephant in the room.
Its usually the last attempt in silencing. "If you think XY could be made better, why not do it yourself" aka "shut up if you don't do it yourself". I would love to be wrong, but deltas longgoing tiptoing which makes him look like he absolutely hates these women, doesn't make me hopeful.
Yeah that's pretty much where I am at.
And back to the original topic this is one more reason I support Zoe's article. Shining light in the shadows, and the things that crawl start scurrying. I just wish more women in the industry would speak up, but I think her article shows good reason why they don't.
All the people saying "why is she the only one saying this" it's not that she's the only one, but because she is already blacklisted so has nothing to lose. If their jobs were secure I think you would see many more coming forward.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Hey, not to be mean, but is English your first language? Ordinarily who gives a fuck whether or not it is, but I cant help but notice that you keep making these overbroad proclamations about what Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quin are saying they "want" or what is "OK" and what isn't, that aren't really supported by the actual statements either woman has made. Sometimes I wonder if a language barrier contributes to a misunderstanding of their messages.
I'm probably off base, as plenty of native speakers make the same (sometimes deliberate) misconstructions. But it's something I've wondered about in general.
It looks like criticism isn't allowed instead of action when it pertains to things you like, and you allow/ignore criticism for things you dont care about.
Unless you believe that every single review thread on this forum should be ignored and suppressed because most of the individuals inside are not developers.
I don't think he hates these women, I think his mindset is more like this:
He likes the way his games are and doesn't want that to change. The thing he doesn't understand is that his games will not change and what these women are asking for is not complete change where every woman in gaming has to wear formal attire and the cast has to have at least one person from each race and LGBTQ+, just more diversity. More games that have positive portrayal of women and minorities alongside the straight white male power fantasies. As Bish said earlier:
I even think Anita said in one of her videos that not all games have to remove these tropes, just that it's becoming tired and played out, cliched and somewhat off putting to some women. That developers should put more effort to their stories instead of using old stereotypical, played out storylines. God knows I'm tired of seeing women with extremely impractical and revealing armor in fantasy games while men get something actually practical or women getting kidnapped used as nothing more as an excuse to advance the plot. (And when said woman gets her own game, it's a cutesy "girly" game where you use your extreme emotions to beat the bad guys and search for a mystical vibrator...)
But that requires people to actually watch those videos with an open mind instead of instantly using any single point to demonize her and chase her off the internet.
English is indeed my native language, granted I do have some learning disabilities that make spelling and proper grammar difficult. It is what it is, I live with it. Anywho, I think its time I once again moved on, I'm not winning the hearts and minds of anyone.
edit:
maybe next time PM instead of pointing out someones potential inability to comprehend the english language on a public forum. Its not really a nice thing to do imo
SolicitorPirate
Member
What the fuck kind of bullshit am I reading.
Hell, this very thread shows good reason why more women choose not to speak out. To have some random fools attack them without any arguments, or "just ask questions", or spread misinformation, nobody would like to go through that shit if they can avoid it. Fear is a strong weapon. And it totally sucks.
Or tell them that they are not allowed to criticize because they dont contribute enough.
SolicitorPirate
Member
The level of truth here is off the charts. And it effects people on all levels of the industry, from gamers all the way up to developers.
To give an idea of how much fear female gamers have about speaking up in the current climate; I know of gaming forums that is majority female. They go through insane steps to prevent being found and accessed by the general gaming public, including hiding the site from search engines and making it difficult to sign up for accounts. It's basically the only way for girls to freely discuss fucking video games on the internet.
Blackpanther25
Member
This is so much misinformation going on about this situation.
Did she really have a relationship with a new journalist or was that just made up?
Did she really have a relationship with a new journalist or was that just made up?
Actually on topic:
Zoe's blog post was pretty insightful. I think its pretty telling that a large portion of the post related to Alex, the hardships he's faced, how he's supported her, and how he's more than an extension of her and yet here we are arguing about Zoe (and sometimes Anita too?). It's a shame Alex has had so much trouble finding work because it sounds like he's truly talented.
It's also sad to think that Zoe Quinn is probably never going to escape from the shadow of GamerGate. 10 years from now when this whole thing is just a memory-- and it had damn well better have stopped by then. It should be gone now!-- she'll release a game and people will be like, "Who?", and someone will reply, "You know, that woman that was involved in the GamerGate thing."
I'm glad she has the courage to stand up against this harassment and has people she cares for that are willing to stand with her.
Zoe's blog post was pretty insightful. I think its pretty telling that a large portion of the post related to Alex, the hardships he's faced, how he's supported her, and how he's more than an extension of her and yet here we are arguing about Zoe (and sometimes Anita too?). It's a shame Alex has had so much trouble finding work because it sounds like he's truly talented.
It's also sad to think that Zoe Quinn is probably never going to escape from the shadow of GamerGate. 10 years from now when this whole thing is just a memory-- and it had damn well better have stopped by then. It should be gone now!-- she'll release a game and people will be like, "Who?", and someone will reply, "You know, that woman that was involved in the GamerGate thing."
I'm glad she has the courage to stand up against this harassment and has people she cares for that are willing to stand with her.
EdibleKnife
Member
SolicitorPirate
Member
The better question would be how on earth could gamergate's actions be justified even if their accusations were true.
But to answer your question, she only later entered into a relationship with him some time after his article, which wasn't a review of Depression Quest, but had merely mentioned it amongst many other games.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Oof, yeah, sorry. Not really my intent but I knew it might come off poorly and I still made the comment. Sorry for that. And I missed an apostrophe in my comment too.
Least100Seraphs
Neo Member
I had a teacher once that said every situation can be analogised by comparing it to an ice-cream shop. So here goes?
Some people, old school flavour fans, remember ice-cream being some niche item - a sugary treat for little kids, or something you had in hospital if you had tonsilitis. Most adults wouldn't eat ice-cream more than a couple of times a year, as they preferred cake or fruit for dessert. That's what grown-ups did. Because of this, not many stores sold ice cream, and those that did only had a few flavours: vanilla, strawberry, chocolate, and a mint chip.
Now the ice cream lovers are worried, because things have changed - adults have discovered the joys of strange new flavours at a restaurant one time, and now they want ice-cream almost as much as the original affcionados. And because they didn't really eat much ice-cream for a while, they want different flavours. Rum raisin, or cookie dough, or coffee ice cream, they say. Mango sorbet. Macadamia with a caramel swirl!
The afficionados are panicking now. What if introducing cookie dough means no more vanilla?
But what they don't realise, is that because all of these new customers are showing up with money and an appetite for ice cream, the owner of their favourite ice cream store can expand. He's now got enough space for 32 tubs at the front. And while his new customers want rum raisin, his old customers are still buying vanilla just as much. Not only that, but these new customers are trying the old favourites too and some of them really like them - so he's selling even more vanilla than before. Ice cream is every where, at every shop, and there's so many places to get it from that even if one store closes down, there's three others that will have what you want.
Some people, old school flavour fans, remember ice-cream being some niche item - a sugary treat for little kids, or something you had in hospital if you had tonsilitis. Most adults wouldn't eat ice-cream more than a couple of times a year, as they preferred cake or fruit for dessert. That's what grown-ups did. Because of this, not many stores sold ice cream, and those that did only had a few flavours: vanilla, strawberry, chocolate, and a mint chip.
Now the ice cream lovers are worried, because things have changed - adults have discovered the joys of strange new flavours at a restaurant one time, and now they want ice-cream almost as much as the original affcionados. And because they didn't really eat much ice-cream for a while, they want different flavours. Rum raisin, or cookie dough, or coffee ice cream, they say. Mango sorbet. Macadamia with a caramel swirl!
The afficionados are panicking now. What if introducing cookie dough means no more vanilla?
But what they don't realise, is that because all of these new customers are showing up with money and an appetite for ice cream, the owner of their favourite ice cream store can expand. He's now got enough space for 32 tubs at the front. And while his new customers want rum raisin, his old customers are still buying vanilla just as much. Not only that, but these new customers are trying the old favourites too and some of them really like them - so he's selling even more vanilla than before. Ice cream is every where, at every shop, and there's so many places to get it from that even if one store closes down, there's three others that will have what you want.
Blackpanther25
Member
I'm more of a facts person. The whole situation was plan sick from the beginning so
I decided to stay away "GG" drama because it seemed to me at the time that a lot of misinformation was being passed around.
Actually, it's about ethics in frozen desserts.
Seriously though, this might be the best analogy for the whole "gamers are over" situation that I've ever read.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
That's unfortunate, I was hoping to get some of my questions answered.
Amen. The games industry isn't perfect, but the last thing it need is trust fund babies like Zoe or Anita. You guys honestly think they care about changing the things for the better? No, it's all about how much money they can squeeze out of being professional victims.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Oh dear.
I laughed so hard I spit coffee. And it is a great analogy. And to keep it on topic it's like one flavor maker was accused of rotten milk in her cream because she ate pizza with an ice cream taster once, but really they just don't want women churning butter or something...yeah I am not good at this.
In his "defense" (?), I like when they drop the pretense.
EdibleKnife
Member
Ah yes the lucrative and not at all mentally taxing profession of trying to create quality content and video games only to have every single Internet interaction you have be colored in harassment. Every night they swim in their pools of money gained from a free Steam game and Kickstarted YouTube Videos.
Well he said in one post what delta wanted to say but refused to for four pages, so some credit I guess?
Ironically she is only able to fund this because of the backlash. GG caused a huge spike in donations so for their own sake they could "just ignore it"...
EdibleKnife
Member
Then I owe gaters a thanks for starting and confirming the need for the very conversation they're hell bent on shutting down
SolicitorPirate
Member
Honest question, is there a breeding program for you people? Is that how you keep appearing?
From his post history, he's not that attached to GAF, so suiciding his account doesn't seem like a big loss.
He made 23 posts since 2008. Surely some time taking for quality posting
Or in this case blatant malicious lies
BlastProcessing
Member
By that logic, if you have a problem with media critique, you should become a media critic instead of criticizing them.
Fairly typical for any tangently-related GG thread, really.
Where the flying fuck is this rumour coming from? And how could it matter, in any shape or form?
You know, I wish you knew what it feels like to have your life constantly threatened, actually not just your own life, but also the people you love. Being doxxed, threatened with rape and murder, have a SWAT team show up in your house, and people actually fantasizing over those sick things. All just because you had a different opinion and are a woman.
Of course, you wouldn't know, would you?
Yes, well, let me tell you, it's not fun and pleasant at all, no amount of money is worth it. I know some of what they're going through from experience.
BlastProcessing
Member
There is absolutely no proof outside of the word of a dude who currently has a restraining order against him.
It's a bunch of conspiracy nonsense that creates a smokescreen to allow assholes to push forward their precious anti-SJW agenda.
It came from her ex.
He offered no actual proof of it occurring.
Also, it doesn't matter in the slightest. GGr's keep bringing it up as if it's some sort of point to be made.
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