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Zoë Quinn writes on games industry's reaction to harassment "Risky Business"

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Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Why not take the money and put it towards the development of a game that better suites what their looking for in gaming, why not use the money to help fund indie developers in making games that represent equality for woman.

With that logic, why are you spending time complaining on forums about those trying to change your video games instead of using that time to develop your own ideal game with the type of content YOU want to see?
 
Amen. The games industry isn't perfect, but the last thing it need is trust fund babies like Zoe or Anita. You guys honestly think they care about changing the things for the better? No, it's all about how much money they can squeeze out of being professional victims.

Trust fund babies eh? Tell us more about these women. They sound downright dastardly.
 

Oersted

Member
It came from her ex.

He offered no actual proof of it occurring.

Also, it doesn't matter in the slightest. GGr's keep bringing it up as if it's some sort of point to be made.

He said new journalist. Was he referring to the old bullshit or is there some new crap making rounds?
 
I had a teacher once that said every situation can be analogised by comparing it to an ice-cream shop. So here goes?

Whilst I get your overall point, I actually think Ice Cream is a bad choice considering Ice Cream has always had universal appeal. I think its kind of a bad choice, even if I do get the overall point your making.


Now the ice cream lovers are worried, because things have changed - adults have discovered the joys of strange new flavours at a restaurant one time, and now they want ice-cream almost as much as the original affcionados. And because they didn't really eat much ice-cream for a while, they want different flavours. Rum raisin, or cookie dough, or coffee ice cream, they say. Mango sorbet. Macadamia with a caramel swirl!

The afficionados are panicking now. What if introducing cookie dough means no more vanilla?

I'm probably going to go off on a tangent with this so forgive me in advance...

I think its kind of over simplifying. I don't think its that gamers are necessarily afraid of inclusion rather their sick and tired of being told what they are and what they're not.

Look, I don't support Gamergate, if anything, I think Gamergate is the headless chicken running around the paddock with no idea as to why it still exists. But there are things about this whole situation that deeply annoy me and one of which is the political hyperbole that has taken over almost ever facet of it.

I've seen too many gross hyperbolic statements thrown around. My favourite one of which being that Gators are trying to keep women out by keeping it a boys club. Never mind the fact that there are women inside that movement trying to get their voices heard and instead are being told how they are nothing more than sock puppets. If the situation were reversed they would be "the oppressed" but because they hold differing opinions, then they're automatically sock puppets. Granted, I know, not everyone holds that view, before people jump on me.

Never mind the fact that gaming is a free market open to everyone, regardless of gender. Never mind the fact that when I walk into gaming stores I see plenty of girls happily going about their business and no one ever feels threatened to tell them to leave the store and that they're not wanted.

If anything, from the women I've talked too, it seems to me that they're kind of tired being told what they are and what they aren't by people who think that they have the right to speak for women. I can sympathise with that and that's why I look at this whole situation and realise just how grossly political it has become.

It's the left vs. the right and if you don't agree with every last thing the left has to say then you're automatically right (on Twitter, at least), apparently. At least that seems to be the environment from what I've seen. Too much of this has become a shouting match where political agendas lie at the heart of it. I think that is what annoys me so much about it, its too much of a "you must pick a side" issue and I kind of refuse to pick a side. I'm neutral to this whole thing. I think there are too many hyperbole statements being made on all sides.

I don't think its necessarily that people are afraid of change, rather I think its that you can't tell someone what they supposedly are without expecting them to bite back. This has become more about politics than it has anything else and in some ways this has been building for years, I think this would have happened regardless as to whether Zoe Quinn was the catalyst or not because that was the direction it was going in for so long.

Sorry for the off tangent ramblings, I'll go back to just living my life...besides I don't want to get pulled into a shouting match...I just want to live my life in peace and enjoy the games I buy and play.
 
Amen. The games industry isn't perfect, but the last thing it need is trust fund babies like Zoe or Anita. You guys honestly think they care about changing the things for the better? No, it's all about how much money they can squeeze out of being professional victims.

I don't know you personally, but I can say with confidence that both Zoe and Anita have contributed more to the games industry than you ever have. Well, you have contributed to the perception of gamers as bitter assholes, so thanks for that I guess.
 

cirrhosis

Member
I think that is what annoys me so much about it, its too much of a "you must pick a side" issue and I kind of refuse to pick a side. I'm neutral to this whole thing. I think there are too many hyperbole statements being made on all sides.

I get you. So both sides are bad, right?
 
I've seen too many gross hyperbolic statements thrown around. My favourite one of which being that Gators are trying to keep women out by keeping it a boys club. Never mind the fact that there are women inside that movement trying to get their voices heard and instead are being told how they are nothing more than sock puppets. If the situation were reversed they would be "the oppressed" but because they hold differing opinions, then they're automatically sock puppets. Granted, I know, not everyone holds that view, before people jump on me.

But gamergate is entirely about keeping gaming as a boys club. You know what other group has women in them? MRAs.

Gamergate is perfectly fine with women in their group (in fact, they love it because they are perfect shields they can use on people like, well, you), so long as they don't rock the boat and support all their positions, which have the effective purpose of keeping it a boys club. However, the moment a female gator goes against the grain, she gets hammered by her former allies.

Sorry for the off tangent ramblings, I'll go back to just living my life...besides I don't want to get pulled into a shouting match...I just want to live my life in peace and enjoy the games I buy and play.

...but then again, I'm sure you don't actually care about that. So by all means, go back to pretending the worst thing to ever happen to gaming culture doesn't exist and that both sides are just as bad or some similar nonsense.
 
I get you. So both sides are bad, right?

Not necessarily, but admittedly, I do lean left for the most part but even then I look at some of the fear mongering coming from the far left and it just makes me wonder "how are these people any different to the far right?" But that's just my view.

I just think there are too many hyperbole statements being thrown around is all. A little too much fear mongering (again, I think all sides are guilty of this). <shrugs> its just the way I see this whole situation. That's not to say there aren't valid points being raised (from both sides), but there is also a lot of BS to contend with, would you agree?
 
Not necessarily, but admittedly, I do lean left for the most part but even then I look at some of the fear mongering coming from the far left and it just makes me wonder "how are these people any different to the far right?" But that's just my view.

I just think there are too many hyperbole statements being thrown around is all. A little too much fear mongering (again, I think all sides are guilty of this). <shrugs> its just the way I see this whole situation. That's not to say there aren't valid points being raised (from both sides), but there is also a lot of BS to contend with, would you agree?

Oh definitely! The side that has driven multiple women out of their homes and out of their industry has as much validity as the side that wants better representation for minorities!
 

cirrhosis

Member
Not necessarily, but admittedly, I do lean left for the most part but even then I look at some of the fear mongering coming from the far left and it just makes me wonder "how are these people any different to the far right?" But that's just my view.

I just think there are too many hyperbole statements being thrown around is all. A little too much fear mongering (again, I think all sides are guilty of this). <shrugs> its just the way I see this whole situation. That's not to say there aren't valid points being raised (from both sides), but there is also a lot of BS to contend with, would you agree?

As someone who's been following this whole clusterfuck since day one, pro-GG side is to blame fully in this. The level of vitriol, disgusting behavior, lack of empathy and general shittiness from gators to their victims to date has been sickening. I have yet to see any valid points come from gators. So no, I can't agree with you.
 
...but then again, I'm sure you don't actually care about that. So by all means, go back to pretending the worst thing to ever happen to gaming culture doesn't exist and that both sides are just as bad or some similar nonsense.

I believe I did say that Gamergate is the headless chicken running around the paddock with no idea as to why it exist. I thought that would have made it clear, but oh well. I guess I'll make it clearer.

I'm not ignoring it, I don't agree with the horrendous treatment that its victims have suffered. <shrugs> I don't know how I can make that any clearer...what else do you want me to do other than say those words?
 
I think its kind of over simplifying. I don't think its that gamers are necessarily afraid of inclusion rather their sick and tired of being told what they are and what they're not.

If that were true, Anita and Zoe wouldn't have been the target of GamerGate's ire, given that they did nothing of the sort.

I've seen too many gross hyperbolic statements thrown around. My favourite one of which being that Gators are trying to keep women out by keeping it a boys club. Never mind the fact that there are women inside that movement trying to get their voices heard and instead are being told how they are nothing more than sock puppets. If the situation were reversed they would be "the oppressed" but because they hold differing opinions, then they're automatically sock puppets. Granted, I know, not everyone holds that view, before people jump on me.

GamerGate was literally championed by people who don't give even the slightest of shits about gaming. It was created as a harassment campaign, and the gaming aspects were used as a smokescreen. If the women (and anyone else) in GamerGate were actively trying to change things for the better, they would create a new movement, separate from the one that's so obviously toxic.

Never mind the fact that gaming is a free market open to everyone, regardless of gender.
Never mind the fact that when I walk into gaming stores I see plenty of girls happily going about their business and no one ever feels threatened to tell them to leave the store and that they're not wanted.

If gaming were truly open to everyone, GamerGate would never have existed. Just because a market is free doesn't mean that it doesn't pander to certain people, and it certainly doesn't mean it's logical.

The point about gaming stores is irrelevant. Most Gators wouldn't have the audacity to be that open about their bigotry.


It's the left vs. the right and if you don't agree with every last thing the left has to say then you're automatically right (on Twitter, at least), apparently. At least that seems to be the environment from what I've seen. Too much of this has become a shouting match where political agendas lie at the heart of it. I think that is what annoys me so much about it, its too much of a "you must pick a side" issue and I kind of refuse to pick a side. I'm neutral to this whole thing. I think there are too many hyperbole statements being made on all sides.

There are two sides. There's the side who values and respects human beings and thinks that nobody should be harassed or threatened over video games (fucking video games - you know, things that are supposed to be fun!) - basically, normal people.

Then there's GamerGate.

I don't think its necessarily that people are afraid of change, rather I think its that you can't tell someone what they supposedly are without expecting them to bite back. This has become more about politics than it has anything else and in some ways this has been building for years, I think this would have happened regardless as to whether Zoe Quinn was the catalyst or not because that was the direction it was going in for so long.

When did Zoe Quinn tell somebody what they were, and when did this lead to her being harassed?

Sorry for the off tangent ramblings, I'll go back to just living my life...besides I don't want to get pulled into a shouting match...I just want to live my life in peace and enjoy the games I buy and play.

Nice drive by. Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn were not stopping you from doing that in any way, shape, or form.
 
As someone who's been following this whole clusterfuck since day one, pro-GG side is to blame in this. The level of vitriol, disgusting behavior and general shittiness from gators to their victims to date has been sickening. I have yet to see any valid points come from gators. So no, I can't agree with you.

I actually agree, the level of vitriol is disgusting...I don't disagree with that at all.

The rest of it, fine, we agree to disagree...its no big deal. <shrugs> I don't know what else to say really.
 

laser

Neo Member
Not necessarily, but admittedly, I do lean left for the most part but even then I look at some of the fear mongering coming from the far left and it just makes me wonder "how are these people any different to the far right?" But that's just my view.

I just think there are too many hyperbole statements being thrown around is all. A little too much fear mongering (again, I think all sides are guilty of this). <shrugs> its just the way I see this whole situation. That's not to say there aren't valid points being raised (from both sides), but there is also a lot of BS to contend with, would you agree?

Can you speak in specifics instead of generalities?

1. What are the fear mongering coming from the far left? (In regards to GG, since that is the topic)
2. What are the hyperbole statements?
3. What are the valid points being raised by both sides?

Sourced quotes please for all 3.
 
I believe I did say that Gamergate is the headless chicken running around the paddock with no idea as to why it exist. I thought that would have made it clear, but oh well. I guess I'll make it clearer.

I'm not ignoring it, I don't agree with the horrendous treatment that its victims have suffered. <shrugs> I don't know how I can make that any clearer...what else do you want me to do other than say those words?

Stop being so apathetic.
 
Can you speak in specifics instead of generalities?

You are asking for something that Gators and their supporters are physically incapable of.

Edit: DanielMann, I know you're going to try tell me you said you don't support Gamergate. That doesn't matter. When something is as toxic and harmful as gamergate, even trying to argue that they have any semblance of legitimacy is to be willfully ignorant of all the ill that they have done and continue to do. Anything that is supported by GG and is of actual merit has to be argued free of its banner.
 
Edit: DanielMann, I know you're going to try tell me you said you don't support Gamergate. That doesn't matter. When something is as toxic and harmful as gamergate, even trying to argue that they have any semblance of legitimacy is to be willfully ignorant of all the ill that they have done and continue to do. Anything that is supported by GG and is of actual merit has to be argued free of its banner.

Exactly. To say otherwise is to say that the ends justify the means. They don't, and all the "ethics" in gaming journalism in the world will never, ever be more important than people's well-being.

If somebody wants to campaign for changes in practices regarding gaming journalism or anything else in the gaming industry, GamerGate is not the way to do it. The well was toxic to begin with.

 
Amen. The games industry isn't perfect, but the last thing it need is trust fund babies like Zoe or Anita. You guys honestly think they care about changing the things for the better? No, it's all about how much money they can squeeze out of being professional victims.

The irony is, what do we call it when you inevitably rush over to KotakuInAction to brag about how you got banned for speaking your mind?
 
Stop being so apathetic.

Aren't you being a shit lord oppressor by telling me what I should and shouldn't be ;)

in all seriousness, I don't see why being slightly apathetic is a bad thing...In fact, I think its better than becoming a raving lynch mob.

DanielMann, I know you're going to try tell me you said you don't support Gamergate. That doesn't matter. When something is as toxic and harmful as gamergate, even trying to argue that they have any semblance of legitimacy is to be willfully ignorant of all the ill that they have done and continue to do. Anything that is supported by GG and is of actual merit has to be argued free of its banner.

Fair enough, fair enough. Look I don't wish you ill will. I don't wish anyone ill will. I don't live my life in hatred. I'm just saying. The way I see things is that there is hate on every side of the coin in this situation. Everyone has blood on their hands in this situation and to act otherwise is to be I think just as wilfully ignorant. That's just the way I see things.

Hate is hate and all this whole fucking thing has done is be a blemish on a hobby I once loved (and am now admittedly losing interest in rapidly)

I don't disagree with that statement, but I'm not going to ignore that hate is coming from every direction on this. Just the way I look at it.

Whatever, I hold the unpopular opinion...so be it.
 
Aww, if you get defensive over someone calling you apathetic, imagine how you'd feel with the rape threats and constant harassment that women receive daily.

But no, GG has some valid points. cmon dude.

It was a joke, I really don't care what some nameless faceless person has to say on the internet. I really don't.

I knew exactly what I was getting in for. I hold an unpopular opinion, so be it.
 

Oersted

Member
It was a joke, I really don't care what so nameless faceless person has to say on the internet. I really don't.

I knew exactly what I was getting in for. I hold an unpopular opinion, so be it.

Your opinion is unrelevant to the topic at hand. That it is unpopular nonsense is secondary.

So again: Do you want to talk about the actual topic?


Edit: Well, there it is. For future references, please don't shitpost on purpose.
 
Your opinion is unrelevant to the topic at hand. That it is unpopulär nonsense is secondary.

So again: Do you want to talk about the actual topic?

No, I apologize and move on. That's all I can do. Again, I apologize and will leave the topic.

Edit:

Edit: Well, there it is. For future references, please don't shitpost on purpose.

Advice taken.
 
To say that both sides have engaged in hateful behavior would be accurate, but it would also be accurate to say that a full cup and the ocean contain water. Both statements ignore the incredibly obvious difference between the things being compared.

Especially given that hating a hate group isn't a bad thing, given that hate groups are inherently bad.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Both sides, you guys.

I don't care about this topic because both sides are bad. So I'll leave. Bye.

No really I'm leaving. I apologize if I offended anyone. I just don't want any hatred like I see on both sides.

Both sides. But I'm really leaving now.

Bye.

No, really. I won't reply anymore.

I'm sorry. I'm really leaving now. 'Cause I don't care enough, y'know?

To say that both sides have engaged in hateful behavior would be accurate, but it would also be accurate to say that a full cup and the ocean contain water. Both statements ignore the incredibly obvious difference between the things being compared.

Especially given that hating a hate group isn't a bad thing, given that hate groups are inherently bad.
Heh, that's a really awesome analogy.
 

Dryk

Member
To say that both sides have engaged in hateful behavior would be accurate, but it would also be accurate to say that a full cup and the ocean contain water. Both statements ignore the incredibly obvious difference between the things being compared.
That sort of binary thinking is actually pretty deeply embedded in the whole affair.

Heh, that's a really awesome analogy.
I was going to go with having blood on your hands versus rolling around in a kiddy pool full of it, but the water one works better.
 
I knew exactly what I was getting in for. I hold an unpopular opinion, so be it.

Why shake the hornets nest if you're apathetic?

In my opinion, you're not being nearly as reasonable as you seem to think you're being. Equating a hate movement with people who hate hate movements is pretty goofy.
 

Zambayoshi

Member
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Why shake the hornets nest if you're apathetic?

In my opinion, you're not being nearly as reasonable as you seem to think you're being. Equating a hate movement with people who hate hate movements is pretty goofy.

Its just a way of propping up one's own apathy as the virtuous path. If I don't care about something other people care about it must be because there's something wrong with their position
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

If it involves her personal life? Its really none of anyone's business. Yes, there are ethical questions in games journalism. Who anyone did or didn't sleep with is basically never going to be one of them. Seriously, the amount of sex being traded for positive reviews (if there's any, when basically none is actually documented) is absolutely dwarfed by the number of luxury trips, free swag, and general ego stroking being traded for good reviews

Like, when Brianna Wu starts issuing YouTube takedown notices to bad coverage of her game or whatever then we can have a conversation about if "she's doing something unethical"
 
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

Before GG, people had long raised concerns with game reviews (let's be honest, this isn't journalism, it's reviews). GG has basically poisoned that topic of conversation.

It can still be had, but it has to be clearly differentiated from GG. For instance, the real ethical issue generally stems from the close relationship between publishers and reviewers and the fact that reviewers are generally financially beholden to publishers. It has nothing to do with indie devs being friends with journalists.
 
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

As long as the discussion doesn't take place under the banner of GamerGate, and it doesn't enter topics regarding harassment (as it has here), I think it would be possible to discuss actual ethics within games journalism - which means baseless speculation regarding someone's personal life would be off limits.

I was going to go with having blood on your hands versus rolling around in a kiddy pool full of it, but the water one works better.

Given all of the threatening and attempted swatting GamerGate has done, yours isn't half bad.
 

Dryk

Member
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.
It's really easy, we were doing it for at least 7 or 8 years before Gamergate even started. The conversation was more appropriately targeted at people who actually matter too.
 

cirrhosis

Member
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

There were a couple of attempts to have a legit ethics-in-journalism-sans-GG thread after this whole thing started. I can't recall how they went at the moment. There's certainly conversations to be had that would be worthwhile. This whole ethics thing and the shitposts it breeds make what was easy a whole lot more difficult now.

Wasn't the whole Doritos/Mountain Dew Gaf meme all about that, as an example?

Yeah, his Holiness, the Doritos Pope is a great example, lol. Geoff's cool in my book now though.
 
Everyone has blood on their hands in this situation and to act otherwise is to be I think just as wilfully ignorant.

Can you name one single instance where Anita Sarkeesian sent death threats to others, threatened to bomb educational institutions, etc?

You've made some really big accusations here, and when asked to provide any supporting evidence for your claims, you choose to run away instead. Maybe because you have nothing.

The two "sides" are not at all equatable. One is a hate movement with a history of violent acts. The other is a movement that criticizes entertainment media. Comparing the two is completely laughable.
 

danm999

Member
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

It's pretty easy; don't just bring up how you heard but haven't researched an unsourced rumour about someone sleeping with someone for a review which doesn't exist.
 
Why shake the hornets nest if you're apathetic?

In my opinion, you're not being nearly as reasonable as you seem to think you're being. Equating a hate movement with people who hate hate movements is pretty goofy.

I don't know what I was thinking. Look, I'm being honest, I did not come in here with the intention to troll. I really did not (even if it looks that way). I know it looks like that but in all seriousness, I didn't. I'm probably just digging my grave even further as is. So there is no real point to this.

I don't want to get banned. I'm not the type of person who just looks to shit post. In fact I've been here for months and barely use this account just because I'm too busy with my work life. I like this forum, I have no beef with people here nor do I want beef.

I just thought it was a bit of a simplified way of looking at it when I answered that original post...but maybe I'm wrong in my opinions, I don't know, I'm not going to sit here and say I'm right by default.

Again, sorry, I know I said I was leaving, but I truly wasn't here to troll anyone...but this is just me digging my grave...I'm sorry if my half baked thoughts caused grief, I truly wasn't here to do a drive by.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
lol, I knew he'd still be here :p
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.
Wasn't the whole Doritos/Mountain Dew Gaf meme all about that, as an example?

Also this article was written in 2007 (originally in Dutch, translated circa 2011 IIRC) about the corruption in gaming journalism: http://theglobalmarketeer.com/the-corruption-of-gaming-journalism/
 
I get that for many people this is not what is motivating them, but I keep asking myself: is there an *acceptable* way to question ethics in games journalism without it being taken the wrong way? Surely not everyone concerned about ethics is a misogynist (?) It just seems that anyone who raises such a question which involves a woman in any way is accused of having ulterior motives.

If there is an actual issue related to game journalism you'd like to discuss, we have a thread for that. But note the rules in the OP and if there's even a whiff of it being GG bullshit we will respond harshly.
 
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