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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
It's better than this system. As is, people just put anything on stage without any business plan.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
With the amount of hardware going into this console now, maybe not.
As always, it is going to be the games that matter.
Might want to start up/purchase a few 1st party dev studios to make exclusives. It's go big or go home time.
And those people fail.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ya, but plenty of times after they've taken your money.
s_mirage
Member
I'll admit, I've always thought that this device was pointless, but it might end up costing $400 now? And the 100 year flash is now plain old regular flash? Oh dear.
I'm sorry but I don't even see what the FPGA can bring to the table that's so exciting. Comparing it to the Super FX chip seems a bit strange as that really only served to make up for a slow main CPU. Isn't that essentially how the FPGA is likely to be used too? What's so revolutionary about that?
I'm sorry but I don't even see what the FPGA can bring to the table that's so exciting. Comparing it to the Super FX chip seems a bit strange as that really only served to make up for a slow main CPU. Isn't that essentially how the FPGA is likely to be used too? What's so revolutionary about that?
Vorg
Banned
They're pricing themselves out of an already niche market. The hardware doesn't matter. They could have just used a mobile soc. It doesn't matter if it has good games either. They will be ported when this thing inevitably tanks. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can't see this console ever getting funded, let alone have any chance of any kind of successful ecosystem.
There are Chinese android tv boxes and sticks that allow you to play emulators on your TV. Those are like 70 dollars and you get the benefit of having access to the play store as well. That's what you're competing with. And Chinese android handhelds that plug into the TV with hdmi and do the same for 120. 300 is insane. 400 is unspeakable. I don't know what these guys are thinking.
So don't do business with them anymore and don't give money to bad kickstarters.
Many amazing games have been kickstarted. Without passionate fans funding developers directly, most of those great games would not exist.
caveat emptor
Marty Chinn
Member
Of course you won't do business with them anymore. They failed and are out of business. I was merely pointing out just because they lacked a business plan and failed doesn't mean they didn't get you already. Bboy AJ is right that many of the people doing Kickstarters are naive and don't have a good solid business plan. They may have a good pitch, but if they lack the business plan, that doesn't mean they don't get funded. The Kickstarter doesn't fail, just the business does.
What's the point in commenting that the people without a business plan fail as in response to Bboy AJ? You make it sound like the Kickstarter doesn't get funded without a good business plan, which is not the case.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Seriously. Acting like KS is some terrible thing where only leaches go for "free money" is beyond ridiculous.
NoFaceNico
Member
Geez, y'know. If only there was a retro console that could be bought for less than $150, has a sizable but relatively obscure library, an active homebrew community, arcade ports, and uses an Atari Jaguar case.
Oh, wait.
Oh, wait.
stan423321
Member
The way I understood it, they initially planned to throw the FPGA in so that they could make a, say, "a'la SNES core" for FPGA which would be basically like SNES with maybe a few bugs and tiny differences, and that would allow them to port existing new SNES games by means of bundling their relatively unadjusted versions with aforementioned core. Alternatively, for more "modern" titles, there would be a standard core library that would accelerate doing some sound and graphical things, and somebody crazy enough to adjust the thing would be able to do that.
However, as it turns out, they're discussing FPGA-less version now, which sort of makes me interested what the hell is going on there. Maybe the FPGA priced as they were aiming for was simply too "small" to actually allow such cores. On the other hand, if you are going to allow a few bugs anyway, you could just run an emulator on the ARM. Uh... I just don't know, the project is interesting, but not enough to go and throw $400 on it while on the one hand you hear of titles like Shantae and on the other a 100 MiB game is considered big.
Crazy Harry
Member
Maybe people shouldn't but you must because people will.
People will compare it because of the dynamics of Kickstarter, which are beyond your control. Your vision has nothing to do with it whether people compare those two, you won't be able to influence that.
I want to believe in your project, I would love a ARM/FPGA combination, it is actually something I envisioned myself and wondered why Nintendo wouldn't go that route as they were very reluctant to go for optical discs at the time.
But the $400 will be far too expensive for a console which will have an image not being able to compete with modern consoles.
Calling the console Retro is a big mistake as you already said yourself there is nothing retro about the hardware. I also think you shouldn't target the retro style games as much as you do as an ARM/FPGA combination is capable of so much more.
You will have to set the price lower to gain more initial backers, because I don't think you will be able to get 7000 of them at a 400 price point.
Even 10000 at a $300 would be doubtful. If I were you, I would go for 12000 backers at $250
If that isn't possible with the hardware costs, you need to re-negotiate those prices.
Maybe you are better off offering your project on a equity-based crowdfunding site like seedrs.com or symbid.com (the latter works together with game-focused crowdfunding site gambitious.com) as you are then able to offer lower prices for a share instead of the high price for a console. A lot of enthusiasts will then be able to support you, and actually getting something out of it, if it works out. Instead of having to pay a big price for something which is very unsure.
US equity crowdfunding sites won't work as they require accredited investors and a minimal investment of $5000.
Edit:
Forgot something; don't go for two different versions of your console, you don't want to fragment the userbase.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Yeah but those boxes have no identity. They're just generic Android devices.
That's one of the big ways this system can set itself apart; make a real identity for itself. I still feel it would've been better if it did things the way myself and another poster mentioned some months back on one of the earlier pages in this thread, and theoretically could be doing better now still by making the price more fair and recouping costs on special editions of cart games and opening a donations/tips effort etc., but at least it has something of an identity.
Ghost_Messiah
Member
Wow so this went south pretty fast. If you look back over my posts in this thread you'll see I've been quite the enthusiastic and avid supporter of this but looking at the direction the console is heading now (insane $400 price point locking out everyone, bloated technologically advanced hardware which the games don't actually need and so on) I think I'm officially out now. Sorry but why does the hardware need to be so ridiculously advanced to run something of the technical proficiency of Tiny Knight?
This console should be priced in the $100 to $150 range with low-end hardware and sufficient capability to run 16-bit style games. Now it sounds like the console has become bloated to the point that it's essentially going to be a failed competitor to the PS4 and Xbox One to the point that many users here are calling for the word "Retro" to be removed from the name. And an estimate of $3 million of funding required from Kickstarter is going to be nigh on impossible to reach for a product as niche as this one. $1 million would have been far more reasonable and attainable. To everyone saying this is DOA now I agree. DOA is almost inevitable.
We're an enthusiast gaming forum. The hardest of the hardcore. It really doesn't take much to get the users over here excited about a game or product (just like how we were initially excited and supportive of this when some of the finer details were still vague and unclear). If we're now damning this product in to oblivion then sorry but this thing just has no hope whatsoever now. It needs to be completely re-developed and re-designed. Lower-end, affordable mass market hardware with sufficient capability to run retro games. Nothing beyond that. The expensive monolith it has become now is destined to fail. Just a few pages back the price was quoted as being in the $150 to $200 range. What the hell happened?
I'll still be following the Kickstarter when it launches but I seriously think it'll be a miracle if this succeeds. It evolved in the wrong direction.
This console should be priced in the $100 to $150 range with low-end hardware and sufficient capability to run 16-bit style games. Now it sounds like the console has become bloated to the point that it's essentially going to be a failed competitor to the PS4 and Xbox One to the point that many users here are calling for the word "Retro" to be removed from the name. And an estimate of $3 million of funding required from Kickstarter is going to be nigh on impossible to reach for a product as niche as this one. $1 million would have been far more reasonable and attainable. To everyone saying this is DOA now I agree. DOA is almost inevitable.
We're an enthusiast gaming forum. The hardest of the hardcore. It really doesn't take much to get the users over here excited about a game or product (just like how we were initially excited and supportive of this when some of the finer details were still vague and unclear). If we're now damning this product in to oblivion then sorry but this thing just has no hope whatsoever now. It needs to be completely re-developed and re-designed. Lower-end, affordable mass market hardware with sufficient capability to run retro games. Nothing beyond that. The expensive monolith it has become now is destined to fail. Just a few pages back the price was quoted as being in the $150 to $200 range. What the hell happened?
I'll still be following the Kickstarter when it launches but I seriously think it'll be a miracle if this succeeds. It evolved in the wrong direction.
Sectorseven
Member
At that price they should just go fully high end and make it the AES of the new millennium.
It could be like a status symbol among gamers.
It could be like a status symbol among gamers.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Did they actually say this was a goal, or was that just random speculation from people here?
Ghost_Messiah
Member
As I recall someone asked them on Facebook and this was the target price they referenced. It was many moons ago though. Back in the Spring. Evidently that target has now changed.
NoFaceNico
Member
This is a big concern. FPGA sounds like an incredible type of technology. The way it's sold makes it sound like a miracle product. It's a chip that can become anything you want it to be. But can it make a better game? What are the low-end models actually capable of? From what I can tell, they're really only used to emulate Amiga, so not all that powerful. Saying it'll behave like a Super FX chip isn't comforting but that might just be a bad analogy.
If they're considering FPGA-less versions now, how about this: make them all FPGA-less and make the FPGA a stackable cart like the Game Genie. Did I retro correctly there?
Yes, that estimate was mentioned in almost every podcast interview with Mike Kennedy.
Among some of the supporters right now, it seems like that's what they want this thing to be (or at least how to rationalize it).
Exist2Inspire02
Member
Well my hype for this console just crashed and burned. Here I was hoping that it would be between $150 - $200 USD, but $300 - $400!? Since I'm a Canadian thats about $375 - $500, which is more than an XBox One or a PS4. And I would suspect shippinf would be fairly expensive (plus a continued CAD drop) just makes it way out of my league.
It's a shame because I was really interested in it.
It's a shame because I was really interested in it.
From the sounds of things, I wish there wasn't an FPGA in this. My current understanding is that it allows the hardware to mimic other old systems, which lets homebrew for other systems run natively.
They mention identity in the talk, and even say that RVGS doesn't have its own solid identity. That bothers me a lot. And it seems like the price is significantly increased in order to allow that lack of identity.
Another impression from this talk, I do love the focus on transparency. Even when it's not good news, these guys seem really up front with it. And it sounds like there's an understanding of the need for clarity between the games made to last 20 years and the better ones.
The more I listen to, the more the passion does start to get a bit infectious. I might be able to come around on the $300 price point.
They mention identity in the talk, and even say that RVGS doesn't have its own solid identity. That bothers me a lot. And it seems like the price is significantly increased in order to allow that lack of identity.
Another impression from this talk, I do love the focus on transparency. Even when it's not good news, these guys seem really up front with it. And it sounds like there's an understanding of the need for clarity between the games made to last 20 years and the better ones.
The more I listen to, the more the passion does start to get a bit infectious. I might be able to come around on the $300 price point.
coughlanio
Member
$150 to $180 was mentioned my Mike Kennedy on several occasions, before they decided to go with an FPGA. Just to make people aware, a similar product called the MIST sells for about $250 and ships in a barebones metal case, whereas this has a similar chipset, plus an ARM media processor in a much nicer package, with a controller, pack-in game etc.
It's a high price, but one that's 'fair' considering what's going into it. Whether the market will tolerate such a high price, only the Kickstarter will tell.
ElectricThunder
Member
Another comparison point for something to keep in mind as far as a direction that you COULD pursue, if you want, but it quite likely pushes this well out of the general KS market into something like... becoming techno-luthiers.
http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/ The Ming Mecca
Any decisions that trend towards that sort of territory upon the peaks most esoteric, important though they may be even if most people won't be able to understand the gestalt, should get at least a second thought given your aims to deal with something a fair bit more orthodox even among the heretical.
http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/ The Ming Mecca
Any decisions that trend towards that sort of territory upon the peaks most esoteric, important though they may be even if most people won't be able to understand the gestalt, should get at least a second thought given your aims to deal with something a fair bit more orthodox even among the heretical.
NoFaceNico
Member
Oh man, the Ming Mecca is so fucking sweet!! I would totally order one if the price wasn't so insane. In fact, like some people here would pay $400 for a RVGS (but I wouldn't), I would pay $400 for a Ming Mecca. Eh, different strokes for different folks.
I even made a music video inspired by the Ming Mecca promotional video and the guy who made the Ming Mecca gave his thumbs up, he thought it looked pretty cool!
But overall, the Ming Mecca doesn't have an ambitious production scale like the RVGS, he sells them only on commission. Hell, I don't even know if he's ever sold any, the only videos I've seen are his own.
I even made a music video inspired by the Ming Mecca promotional video and the guy who made the Ming Mecca gave his thumbs up, he thought it looked pretty cool!
But overall, the Ming Mecca doesn't have an ambitious production scale like the RVGS, he sells them only on commission. Hell, I don't even know if he's ever sold any, the only videos I've seen are his own.
ElectricThunder
Member
Pretty sure it has seen some sales, just usually not the sort of thing that lends to much public visibility same as the rest of the stuff in the audio scene that might as well be a case of walking upon the sun versus your standard audiophiles merely being those that gaze upon it from afar unto blindness----it is a thing of craftsmanship, not so much business...though oddly enough I once chatted him up hand wringing at history about what he could do if he went all-in on FPGA tech in terms of something like the Vectrex.
But yeah, the point for Retro VGS is that they have to plan the end game accordingly to straddle the line between something approaching a mass, albeit niche, market and creating for the sake of the progress, indirect or otherwise, the pursuit would beget that largely died out in the 80's/90's when "Business" collectively won out on the see-saw match vs "Artistic Science" and most wildly divergent paths into the unknown ahead were stopped cold and blasted by the wave of homogeny---doubly so on the latter if an open source/public domain slant is adopted as you can be damn sure Tech IP and Means Consolidation is a big reason for the frontier going from verdant hell/dreamscape to barren save the occasional Mystery Spot pit unto the abyss.
Dreamwriter
Member
I've been at PAX and not interested in arguing with people about the reasons Kickstarter exists, since Kickstarter is very clear on the matter, and I didn't really think I needed to point out that I've backed a large number of projects and even been a part of two Kickstarters myself. But if you really won't shut up about it, I'll list some examples.
These are T-shirt tiers from all the Kickstarters I've backed that offer t-shirt rewards (many of course don't): Shenmue 3, $160. Bloodstained, $250, Underworld Ascendant, $25 in addition to another tier (it's an add-on), Camp Weedonwantcha comic, $110, Raiders Guys and the Lost Airplane Scene, $100, Project Giana, $80. I didn't pick and choose there, I just looked through my backed Kickstarters for the cheapest t-shirt tier (if one existed). Also, I was at a PAX panel about successful Kickstarters this weekend, and one of the suggestions (that all panelists agreed upon) was always put t-shirts in at least $100 tiers, because of how much of a pain they are to size/make/store/ship, and because a lot of people want them.
As for projects that don't include the product, I haven't personally pledged on any of those so they are harder to look up, but I did a quick browse and easily found a couple. One recent one is Bill Nye's Light Sail project another, the Alphapura 3d printer. These are often really expensive products, or plays or things still being researched.
dickroach
Member
Geez, y'know. If only there was a retro console that could be bought for less than $150, has a sizable but relatively obscure library, an active homebrew community, arcade ports, and uses an Atari Jaguar case.
Oh, wait.
mmhmm.
anyone indie dev that really wants their game on a cartridge might as well go ahead and produce their games on cartridges. I (as someone who has no idea what a FGPA is) don't see what the new hardware brings to the table.
someone responded to one of my earlier posts saying that devs could put their game on Steam,etc. and have a cartridge, like Pier Solar did.
yeah! like Pier Solar did! on the Genesis!
I just don't get it :\
Mike,
As someone who is really excited by this project and sees the benefits of a new, offline, cartridge based system, I have to say that I believe there is a better route for you. It appears that you wanted to make a somewhat advanced machine which is very admirable in its own right. I certainly don't think a retro style system needs to be delegated to terrible hardware.
However, if this is what is driving up the cost I feel that it will be truly beneficial to back away from the FPGA board. Maybe this could be saved for a Retro VGS 2? Now, most likely, realisticly, you are probably already too far into this to change the hadware so close to the kickstarter.
I would recommend that you take serious consideration into the option of retooling this thing to be less costly and launching the Kickstarter later. I'm sure you have probably already invested a decent amount of your own money into this already and would hate to see it end poorly. I think it would really help out your company and the project to retool things and lower the cost.
Best of luck.
As someone who is really excited by this project and sees the benefits of a new, offline, cartridge based system, I have to say that I believe there is a better route for you. It appears that you wanted to make a somewhat advanced machine which is very admirable in its own right. I certainly don't think a retro style system needs to be delegated to terrible hardware.
However, if this is what is driving up the cost I feel that it will be truly beneficial to back away from the FPGA board. Maybe this could be saved for a Retro VGS 2? Now, most likely, realisticly, you are probably already too far into this to change the hadware so close to the kickstarter.
I would recommend that you take serious consideration into the option of retooling this thing to be less costly and launching the Kickstarter later. I'm sure you have probably already invested a decent amount of your own money into this already and would hate to see it end poorly. I think it would really help out your company and the project to retool things and lower the cost.
Best of luck.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
$300+
Oh well. Another dead kickstarter... Honestly. How stupid can folks be.
Oh well. Another dead kickstarter... Honestly. How stupid can folks be.
I hate and love your quote at the same time. I would be so down for an AES like system, but pretty sure there wouldn't be enough developers able to make games on the scale SNK use to make.
ultrazilla
Gold Member
Great post.
They have to get the system down to between $150-$250 tops IMO. Save all the cool upgrade tech for the
RetroVGS II.
There is ALOT of exposure for the system and I really
believe people were ready to pony upwards of $250
to get a system.
Drop the FPGA board if it's gonna make the price go
between $300-$400.
I don't want a super fancy system. I just want a cartridge based system that is capable of anywhere from Atari 2600 to 16 bit style graphics.
Get that system successfully Kickstarted and sent to customers and then look at some different configurations for a Super RetroVGS.
Somewhere your train got derailed but I'd like to think
you're taking this feedback to heart and will get it back on track.
I think fans would be super excited to see you guys
announce you're delaying the Kickstarter to get the
price and vision back where you originally were.
The Taxman
Neo Member
The FPGA is absolutely a cool piece of kit for hardware nerds, but the practical reality is a single ARM processor is actually capable of simulating all the Retro systems they'd want to provide "cores" for in software alone. Take for example, the Raspberry Pi 2, whose ARM processor is less powerful than the version in the Retro specs - it's capable of emulating all the common 8 - 32bit consoles without issue.
And that's not taking into account the fact that coding for an FPGA is a different skill to regular CPU programming in say C/C++. I don't think many indies would leverage it apart from the emulator cores.
And that's not taking into account the fact that coding for an FPGA is a different skill to regular CPU programming in say C/C++. I don't think many indies would leverage it apart from the emulator cores.
I was thinking the same thing. I was willing to go up to $200 though.
Vorg
Banned
I think most people were expecting 200 at most.
Like the hat?
Banned
I was also willing to go up to $200. MAYBE $250 if there was something really interesting that was exclusive.
Feel_The_Pain
Member
I hope so also. This journey at its present course doesn't look good.
POWERSPHERE
Banned
Cmon, if youre truly passionate about something like this, what the hell is an extra $200? People like to get so indignant about such a small thing when its probably the difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars on the production end from a small inexperienced creator doing something purely out of obsession. The idea is great, and if its supported by the industry with great games and creative ports, it could be something really special. And saying it should just be on Android or something is unfair and missing the point.
I think, unless the guys making it are assholes we ahould be excited someone is at least trying something as crazy as this, and we should understand theyre not a Company with endless pockets.
If this was just an emulation box, they would have got ripped apart amfrom the start.
I think, unless the guys making it are assholes we ahould be excited someone is at least trying something as crazy as this, and we should understand theyre not a Company with endless pockets.
If this was just an emulation box, they would have got ripped apart amfrom the start.
Marty Chinn
Member
Why not everyone pay $600 then? Better yet $800? What's a few hundred more?
POWERSPHERE
Banned
Don't be facetious. Consoles used to all launch at the $800 price range not too long ago, so $400 is a pretty good price for something so niche. I guess I just have empathy for people starting passionate businesses that are never going to make them hugely rich but will be a cool addition to something like classic gaming. Ballsy move that if works could be cool as shit. I find this console more interesting than buying an Xbone or PS4 as long as it gets supported with games, which would be my only worry as the games shown aren't very inspiring.
Marty Chinn
Member
What console launched at $800? The 3DO was $700. The Neo Geo AES was $650. PlayStation 3 was $500 and $600. Those were the most expensive systems launched in the US. You can have empathy, but you were trivializing doubling the price of a console from $200 to $400. It's not something to trivialize over. Let's not ignore the fact that you said "what the hell is an extra $200?"
POWERSPHERE
Banned
Lest we forget.
But Yeah, who cares about $200 if it makes the console a better, longer term prospect? I think its a small price to pay to attract the future Shovel Knight equivilent games to the console. Im assuming to that this machine will have a long life as it wont be playing the features and power game. And I should clarify im in Australia re: launch prices.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
You are asking who cares about an extra $200 in a thread filled with people who care about an extra $200. This whole thing was always going to face a huge uphill battle, but it's gonna be DOA at $400. That's a fact.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
That's actually a very good idea.
And as far as system power is concerned, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to as for something around 32X/System 32/AES level of power. That'd make it capable of the kind of experiences going back to Atari up to some of the stuff that was in that odd "in between" state of tech that was too strong for the SNES/Genesis at the end of their lives, yet never got perfect ports to PS1/Saturn which could have handled them as 1st/2nd-gen games.
I mean stuff like Outrunners, Battletoads Arcade, etc. But keep 3D to a minimum.
NoFaceNico
Member
It doesn't look like they're planning to back off the high price.
I actually don't think they should make an FPGA-less model because I don't think that'll bring the price back down enough. But if they want to justify what they claim to be the price of including the FPGA it would help them immensely to show us what they can pull off with it that other consoles and emulators currently cannot. I don't know if it'll justify a $300-$400 price tag, but it's better to demonstrate than to promise. Otherwise it does start to sound like snake oil when they keep saying the console is "unlimited."
Comparing adjusted to inflation prices of actual retro consoles to a new console that's aiming for the retro market is absurd. When it comes to hardware, game consoles are relatively high priced because they could match or surpass what the even more expensive contemporary PCs can do. Meanwhile the RVGS games we've actually seen running look like they belong on a Sega Master System.
Speaking of which, does anyone else think Tiny Knight looks very very very similar to Super Frog on Amiga? The environments look similar and even the Joust-like physics when they fly seem near identical.
Don't argue the obvious with these people. It's out of our hands, it'll be on Kickstarter soon and I feel that'll teach them all the facts they'll ever need to know.
I actually don't think they should make an FPGA-less model because I don't think that'll bring the price back down enough. But if they want to justify what they claim to be the price of including the FPGA it would help them immensely to show us what they can pull off with it that other consoles and emulators currently cannot. I don't know if it'll justify a $300-$400 price tag, but it's better to demonstrate than to promise. Otherwise it does start to sound like snake oil when they keep saying the console is "unlimited."
Comparing adjusted to inflation prices of actual retro consoles to a new console that's aiming for the retro market is absurd. When it comes to hardware, game consoles are relatively high priced because they could match or surpass what the even more expensive contemporary PCs can do. Meanwhile the RVGS games we've actually seen running look like they belong on a Sega Master System.
Speaking of which, does anyone else think Tiny Knight looks very very very similar to Super Frog on Amiga? The environments look similar and even the Joust-like physics when they fly seem near identical.
Don't argue the obvious with these people. It's out of our hands, it'll be on Kickstarter soon and I feel that'll teach them all the facts they'll ever need to know.