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Digital Foundry Performance Analysis: Fallout 4

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I agree, although it is fair to say that those issues will not be a concern for the vast majority of players. Your average gamer be it on PC or consoles does not seem to care about those things at all.
Which really bugs me as it guarantees that publishers will put less effort into such things. I don't like that Bethesda is basically squeaking by here. Fallout 4 is, perhaps, one of the worst running games on consoles at the moment. It hearkens back to the dark days of late PS360 releases. It's not acceptable.

Witcher 3 was bad enough, but Fallout 4 is a much uglier game and has even more severe performance issues.
 

Durante

Member
I feel like the outrage about Witcher 3 performance on PS4 was much greater, even though it actually performed better.

It's the Bethesda factor.
 

Herbs

Banned
Every now and again something will catch the corner of my eye that looks off, I knew it was something to do with how it handles culling but could never recreate it, until now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhH9diaZIA

Makes me wonder if this is what's causing certain locations to have really odd performance at certain camera angles, if the culling is this off.

lol nothing wrong there it's just ghosts fucking with you.

this game is making me consider jumping into the realm of pc. ugh.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
You mean they are forgiven, because they are known for putting out crap on consoles?
Yes. Exactly.

If this were a UbiSoft game, people would be asking for Yves' head. Since it's Bethesda, somehow, it feels glossed over.

This isn't a situation like AC Unity where pushing for cutting edge visuals cost performance on consoles. Fallout 4 is not a good looking game and it feels ancient to play.
 

Kssio_Aug

Member
They should have done an indoor and weather analysis. That one doesn't seem to cover everything that's important, imo.
Am I alone at this opinion?
 

Kezen

Banned
Which really bugs me as it guarantees that publishers will put less effort into such things. I don't like that Bethesda is basically squeaking by here. Fallout 4 is, perhaps, one of the worst running games on consoles at the moment. It hearkens back to the dark days of late PS360 releases. It's not acceptable.

Witcher 3 was bad enough, but Fallout 4 is a much uglier game and has even more severe performance issues.

Which is why it's your duty so to speak to be the loud-hailer of those more discerning gamers. You may be in the minority but you are vocal and are granted immediate visibility through Digital Foundry, so in the end I believe it can make a difference. No publishers like having their games' performance questioned, it puts further pressure on them to fix them. I bet that if they could silence outlets dissecting the performance and IQ of their games they would.
In fact I would not be surprised if some of your requests for technical stipulations of various nature remain unanswered because the publisher said no. The devs themselves might be open for discussion and level-headed debate but the publishers could put their veto on the grounds that anything remotely affecting sales needs to be carefully evaluated. Imagine if one candid technical lead told you about all the mistakes, the weaknesses of their engines, the sacrifices they had to accept because of hardware or budgetary constraints. That would put their games in a bad light, imagine that a developper openly admitting shortcomings !
Years after the game ships perhaps, but not around one AAA launch. Publishers want tech interviews to be bankable, they don't care about actual technical investigations. Which is why the majority (not DF's) are dull and void, they are selling a product first and foremost.

I admit I don't have 100% visibility on such things but it seems to me that more and more gamers are actually paying attention to technical details regardless of platforms, back in my days (born in 1990) it did not seem to make any difference.
I never remember talking about resolution or framerate until I entered the amazing world of PC gaming, my avid console friends and I had no idea about 30 or 60fps, we played many games which performed poorly.
I will confess I miss those days when I could simply "enjoy" a game with literally zeo fucks given about IQ, framerate, AF, shimmering anti-aliasing, stutter etc. I will go even further and plainly admit I'm envious of those people now. Those considerations have scarred my brain, it has become impossible for me to lay back and just, you know, game without worrying or wondering about technology.
I blame PC gaming for that, but that was perhaps unavoidable as gaming forums are rife with technical debates so I would have ended up noticing and paying attention to that more and more. I know many people (PC and console gamers) who told me they hate Neogaf and gaming forums save for echo chambers like sub Reddits because it made them cognizant of things they just did not want anything to do with.

Regarding The Witcher 3, I did not play it on consoles but from the various pieces of console footage it's not that bad at all. Not perfectly locked 30fps but the dips frankly are not too in-your-face.
For now Fallout 4 runs a bit forse than that, maybe Bethesda will do something about it and the more it is reported the higher the chances they will.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Nope. Listen to the Umbra GDC talk how Witcher 3 does dynamic streaming.
Neither does GTA V.

Umbra is a rendering occlusion solution, not an object interaction and loading solution.

When you load a quad/cell/whatever the engine programmer has decided to call it, this means you're loading every object (rendered or not) that are now allowed to specifically interact with each other. You cannot cull said objects since they need to be able to interact with each other, or exist for the purposes of scripts/etc, even when invisible to the player.

In the context of Bethesda and other similar engines, this means that the "world" is usually loaded in quads, with the next ones prepped to be loaded depending on which direction you are traveling and how fast you are moving. The more "world" you load at once, the less "real object' density you can have. Bethesda games have a crap ton of potential objects, objects which you can also move and have remain where they are, or put objects inside other objects such as chests, or remove NPCs by killing them or taking them with you, or steal/put items on them, which other NPCs and scripts can check for, even when you're not looking at them. There is also a lot of headroom left for modders to come in and add their own objects, NPCS, quests and scripts on top of the ones that exist, which will just add to the complexity.

Games like GTA load more world at once, but they have less unique objects and generally do not preserve state once you leave the quad except for some metadata tricks, like the gang turf areas in San Andreas. However, they are still loading the world in cell/quadrants/some other named container, it's just that their cells/quadrants are much larger to accomodate being able to fly/high speed vehicles/etc. As a tradeoff, the per cell object density is low compared to an Elderscrollseque game.

In theory Bethesda could make the entire game world a single cell, but it'd have the average object complexity of an N64 game from any spot the player stands to the horizon.
 
Which really bugs me as it guarantees that publishers will put less effort into such things. I don't like that Bethesda is basically squeaking by here. Fallout 4 is, perhaps, one of the worst running games on consoles at the moment. It hearkens back to the dark days of late PS360 releases. It's not acceptable.

Witcher 3 was bad enough, but Fallout 4 is a much uglier game and has even more severe performance issues.

This is not new for them, standard practice.
 

Ce-Lin

Member
well, these consoles have really weak CPUs, it's painful to pay 300-400 $ for one of them when your computer built years ago is already more powerful but what can you do when games such as Bloodborne / Uncharted / Halo and others are exclusive to these systems, long gone are the times when you felt such power when buying a new console, expecting to be blown away, this is no "PS1 Demo disc" anymore... having said that I expect 8 cores + 8 GB of RAM to deliver at least constant 30 fps @ 900 - 1080p, so I put this one on Bethesda.
 

Lemondish

Member
I feel like the outrage about Witcher 3 performance on PS4 was much greater, even though it actually performed better.

It's the Bethesda factor.

It could be that the vast majority of those who would speak up don't yet have the game given it only releases today. Rather than follow a pitch fork mob on GAF, a place notorious for flipping it's collective shit for no reason, I'll wait to start complaining until I put hands on it myself.
 

Foffy

Banned
Every now and again something will catch the corner of my eye that looks off, I knew it was something to do with how it handles culling but could never recreate it, until now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhH9diaZIA

Makes me wonder if this is what's causing certain locations to have really odd performance at certain camera angles, if the culling is this off.

I actually DSP'd wowwwwwwed at this. Jesus Christ.

Is that on PS4?
 

Renekton

Member
Which really bugs me as it guarantees that publishers will put less effort into such things. I don't like that Bethesda is basically squeaking by here. Fallout 4 is, perhaps, one of the worst running games on consoles at the moment. It hearkens back to the dark days of late PS360 releases. It's not acceptable.

Witcher 3 was bad enough, but Fallout 4 is a much uglier game and has even more severe performance issues.
I feel like the outrage about Witcher 3 performance on PS4 was much greater, even though it actually performed better.

It's the Bethesda factor.
1. There is a FO4 bug thread in GAF. I don't remember a dedicated bug thread in Witcher 3?

2. The top upvoted topic of r/games describes the game as a technical mess.

3. FO4 official reviews have more mentions about the bugs than Witcher 3's. Metacritic aggregates is getting hit significantly by this.

4. [anecdotal] my casual friends are actually aware enough on their own to stay away for a few months.

5. Already ACU-style bug videos for FO4 are springing up on youtube.

6. Witcher 3's downgrade-gate only matches FO4's last-gen graphics gate at best. This is despite Bethesda is being more honest than CDPR in this case.

7. Right now X1's HDD streaming stutter and PS4 dips seem to have attracted as much or more heat than Witcher's fixed 20fps.

8. I see "PS3 Skyrim" reminders almost everytime.

9. Many comments in Conan's Sketch are taking potshots at the graphics.

10.Another GAF Topic
 

Vanguard

Member
I actually DSP'd wowwwwwwed at this. Jesus Christ.

Is that on PS4?

Yep PS4. It's looking through one of the windows of the main house that the settlers start to work on in case anyone wants to see what it's like on other platforms as I'm also curious about that.

Also have to ask, what does "DSP'd" mean? Term I don't know heh :p
 

Kezen

Banned
well, these consoles have really weak CPUs, it's painful to pay 300-400 $ for one of them when your computer built years ago is already more powerful but what can you do when games such as Bloodborne / Uncharted / Halo and others are exclusive to these systems, long gone are the times when you felt such power when buying a new console, expecting to be blown away, this is no "PS1 Demo disc" anymore... having said that I expect 8 cores + 8 GB of RAM to deliver at least constant 30 fps @ 900 - 1080p, so I put this one on Bethesda.

From what we know for sure (but it could have changed) only 6 cores are available to games on PS4, 2 "reserved" for the OS and other background tasks but what I don't understand is that the console does have a chip with 256mb of memory and ARM cores which I thought was supposed to handle all that already. Hence why it came as bit of a shock that 2 whole cores are locked out of devs.

That seems overkill to me, 2 or 2.5gb of VRAM is also insane. Like why on earth is that needed for ? Those consoles are not running full fledge OSs as far as I know.
 

jbluzb

Member
Fallout 4 is being given a free pass. It happened to unity and the review scores were downgraded because of technical bugs.
 
Haven't noticed anything on the Xbone version so far. About 5 hours in. Has been running quite smoothly and looks as expected for a Bethesda game. They nailed the atmosphere and the increased color palette is a nice touch.
 

Foffy

Banned
nearly every game ever does this

But this hilariously badly and obvious?

Come on. Fallout 4 is a technical mess. Bethesda fans have accepted this for years, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be pointed out.

Yep PS4. It's looking through one of the windows of the main house that the settlers start to work on in case anyone wants to see what it's like on other platforms as I'm also curious about that.

Also have to ask, what does "DSP'd" mean? Term I don't know heh :p

DSP stands for DarkSydePhil, a famously terrible player of video games on the internet.
 
well, these consoles have really weak CPUs, it's painful to pay 300-400 $ for one of them when your computer built years ago is already more powerful but what can you do when games such as Bloodborne / Uncharted / Halo and others are exclusive to these systems, long gone are the times when you felt such power when buying a new console, expecting to be blown away, this is no "PS1 Demo disc" anymore... having said that I expect 8 cores + 8 GB of RAM to deliver at least constant 30 fps @ 900 - 1080p, so I put this one on Bethesda.

Even if the consoles are a little under powered in general, you're right, Bethesda gonna Bethesda.

When we get Fallout 5 and Elder Scrolls VII on new hardware, who will be surprised if those games still run poorly? As long as the Gamebryo engine is involved, I think it's a set path now.
 

BigDug13

Member
When industry insiders here were saying a certain high profile game would release as a technical mess, many predicted AC Syndicate. It seems like Fallout was the game.
 

ps3ud0

Member
I feel like the outrage about Witcher 3 performance on PS4 was much greater, even though it actually performed better.

It's the Bethesda factor.
Had the same conversation yesterday where I had to persuade a mate to get W3 about a month ago because he said he was picky with frame drops completing ignoring that prior condition when he would get FO4 as soon as he could afford to.

Just amazed how he just couldnt appreciate how different the situation is and how much worse FO4 is in comparison to W3 before the latest patch.

ps3ud0 8)
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
When industry insiders here were saying a certain high profile game would release as a technical mess, many predicted AC Syndicate. It seems like Fallout was the game.

I don't think predicting an open world Bethesda game would be buggy is worth industry whispers. Of course it would be.
 

Moobabe

Member
Which is why it's your duty so to speak to be the loud-hailer of those more discerning gamers. You may be in the minority but you are vocal and are granted immediate visibility through Digital Foundry, so in the end I believe it can make a difference. No publishers like having their games' performance questioned, it puts further pressure on them to fix them. I bet that if they could silence outlets dissecting the performance and IQ of their games they would.

Dead on
 

evilr

Banned
Bethesda marketing PR man Pete Hines claimed Fallout 4 runs at a solid 30fps on PS4/X1.

Digital Foundry analysis, on game release, shows this is not the case with the game running into single digits on occasion. In fact, nothing suggests Fallout 4 runs at a solid 30fps at all, it is merely locked at 30fps.

That tweet lies about performance which may in turn have generated preorders.

When does this finally constitute as false advertising?
 
The difference between CDPR and Bethesda is, that one will do their best to get the game running as good as possible and the other one just doesn't give a shit.
 
Umbra is a rendering occlusion solution, not an object interaction and loading solution.

When you load a quad/cell/whatever the engine programmer has decided to call it, this means you're loading every object (rendered or not) that are now allowed to specifically interact with each other. You cannot cull said objects since they need to be able to interact with each other, or exist for the purposes of scripts/etc, even when invisible to the player.

In the context of Bethesda and other similar engines, this means that the "world" is usually loaded in quads, with the next ones prepped to be loaded depending on which direction you are traveling and how fast you are moving. The more "world" you load at once, the less "real object' density you can have. Bethesda games have a crap ton of potential objects, objects which you can also move and have remain where they are, or put objects inside other objects such as chests, or remove NPCs by killing them or taking them with you, or steal/put items on them, which other NPCs and scripts can check for, even when you're not looking at them. There is also a lot of headroom left for modders to come in and add their own objects, NPCS, quests and scripts on top of the ones that exist, which will just add to the complexity.

Games like GTA load more world at once, but they have less unique objects and generally do not preserve state once you leave the quad except for some metadata tricks, like the gang turf areas in San Andreas. However, they are still loading the world in cell/quadrants/some other named container, it's just that their cells/quadrants are much larger to accomodate being able to fly/high speed vehicles/etc. As a tradeoff, the per cell object density is low compared to an Elderscrollseque game.

In theory Bethesda could make the entire game world a single cell, but it'd have the average object complexity of an N64 game from any spot the player stands to the horizon.

Stop with this technical logic stuff!
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Here another test from VG Tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6KlCQG-9mE

I cant say i find it very smooth.

Lol, every time he fires that big gun the framerate just takes a nosedive to 20 and stays there until he stops firing. Terrible. Definitely not getting this until they fix that shit (or I get a good gaming PC, which I don't know when I will).

Regarding The Witcher 3, I did not play it on consoles but from the various pieces of console footage it's not that bad at all. Not perfectly locked 30fps but the dips frankly are not too in-your-face.

TW3 was pretty terrible on PS4, locking to 20fps for sustained periods of time in certain situations (much like in the above video), but they finally mostly sorted that out after half a year and a hundred patches. Now it just drops a bit here and there. Much better, very playable.
 

kiguel182

Member
Which really bugs me as it guarantees that publishers will put less effort into such things. I don't like that Bethesda is basically squeaking by here. Fallout 4 is, perhaps, one of the worst running games on consoles at the moment. It hearkens back to the dark days of late PS360 releases. It's not acceptable.

Witcher 3 was bad enough, but Fallout 4 is a much uglier game and has even more severe performance issues.

This really bums me out. One of the reasons people buy consoles is a certain assurance that things will run at an acceptable level and these days that is less and less a guarantee. Worst of all, people don't seem to even care. And it probably won't get better.

I really want to play this but not at this state. Hopefully they patch it but I'm not hopeful. Shame this looks so bad and runs just as poorly.
 
Umbra is a rendering occlusion solution, not an object interaction and loading solution.
Umbra also handles streaming (Umbra 3 Tomes and TomeCollections). CDProject specifically mentioned how they generate "inter-Tome data" to reduce streaming lag spikes (sadly I can't find the video in the GDC vault). I also don't get why you need to load all the high LoD levels for simulation.

umbrawosqe.jpg


Umbra website said:
VISIBILITY-BASED STREAMING AND OPTIMIZATION

Example scenario: A massive 3D model or scene which doesn’t fit into the rendering or memory budget of the target device. Imagine a 3D model of an entire city, with all the interiors included, rendered in VR or on a mobile device. The data can’t be loaded into memory and certainly exceeds the rendering budget of the graphics hardware.
Umbra can automatically re-arrange and optimize this massive amount of data into streamable pieces that are guaranteed to fit into specific budgets for each device. The user can specify a triangle-rendering budget as well as how much data can be loaded into memory, and Umbra handles the rest.

Umbra uses the visibility data to figure out what part of the scene needs to be streamed in, and then what needs to be rendered on the screen. If something is guaranteed to be hidden it needn’t be loaded into memory.

The Umbra database contains multiple versions of the geometry and textures at different levels of detail and the appropriate resolution of the data is chosen based on distance and visibility – higher resolution is needed close to the viewer, while far away objects can use lower resolution.

This unique combination of visibility, level-of-detail and 3D content streaming makes it possible for Umbra to guarantee that budgets are met from any viewpoint inside the scene. Looking at a wide vista over a city? Or standing inside a closed room within this same scene? Umbra will make sure you have only the necessary data loaded at any given time with the frame-rate you need for your application.
 

Rolf NB

Member
Bethesda marketing PR man Pete Hines claimed Fallout 4 runs at a solid 30fps on PS4/X1.

Digital Foundry analysis, on game release, shows this is not the case with the game running into single digits on occasion. In fact, nothing suggests Fallout 4 runs at a solid 30fps at all, it is merely locked at 30fps.

That tweet lies about performance which may in turn have generated preorders.

When does this finally constitute as false advertising?
He's always been a pro liar. Ever since Oblivion, where they pulled basically the same shit and worse, whenver one of those guys says anything, I assume the opposite is true. Sometimes it's hard to know what the opposite is, but in general this has still improved my Bethesda information experience greatly.

No courts will ever care. They have the exact same problems coming to grips with social media marketing as the rest of us.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Why are we calling it 0fps? It's always been called a stutter, is this different?

If you don't get a new frame in 1000ms, that's 0fps for that second. Technically it might be 0.9fps or something, but I think everything below 1fps (which would be a 1000ms frame time) is counted as 0fps?
 
The lack of any kind of motion blur really hurts the game, too. Even when it's running at a consistent 30fps, it looks nowhere near as smooth as other 30fps games like Bloodborne or The Witcher 3. Bethesda has it's work cut out for them (if they even give a shit, and judging my Pete Hines' tweets they don't).
 
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