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[Bitch Pudding]

Or wait another 2 years, when 14nm become cheaper, roll out PS5 with bigger performance gain per dollar, avoid all the backlash?

Another 2 years would basically mean a 4 year life-cycle. And then an upgrade to a whole new system which might not share the same library as the old one.

So what seems to happen is Sony releasing a PS4k after 3 years, then wait another 3 years for releasing a PS5 OR another PS4 incarnation. The difference is that a PS4k doesn't force you to buy it, unless you have a 4k TV and want the best picture you can get, thanks to the shared library. But if a new PS5 comes out, it is quite likely that you're forced to buy a new one if you want to play the latest games.

I'll buy someone's PS4 for $10.

Sure you would, but I am inclined to sell mine for 250 bucks on ebay - without any games, that is. Good thing that Sony kept the price of PS4 stable as fuck.

 

[qa_engineer]

This is has been covered numerous times in this thread, and it's exactly what's going to happen if we go by the current market and what the masses want (and don't seem to care about: performance). Playing new, PS4K-tailored games on the normal PS4 might mean even worse performance than we have now because we all know what some of these developers' definition of 'playable' is.

You do know your assumption that playing sgames on standard ps4, "might mean even worse performance" is borderline fud right?

 

[mckmas8808]

So we have 28 nm to 14 nm, big performance gain, roll out ps4.5 to take advantage.

I just cant see whats next, ps5 when they can do 7 nm ? LOL, think if we are stuck with 14 nm for 10 years we will be stuck with ps4.5 for the same time as how would you do a step performance ?

There might not be a ps5 if its no better potentially than ps4.5. Why bother ?

Why would you ever assume the bolded?

 

[Ragona]

Wonder how many publishers already rub their belly thinking about the opportunity of 4k remasters.

 

[Markoman]

Forgive me if this has been covered, and maybe this is a dumb question, but would it be worth upgrading without a 4k TV if the specs are true?

See my posts on this page. No one ITT knows for sure where PS4K extra power will be allocated to:
a) performance
b) res
c) graphics

If it's a) and c) an upgrade makes sense - b) not so much unless they will give you In-game options (a/b/c) which I highly doubt.

 

[geordiemp]

Why would you ever assume the bolded?

I am a physics guy, many years ago used to work in Motorola fab, 14 nm is bloody small and has taken aloooong time to get there.

I am a pessimist and think the next steps will be too much for low cost stuff.

[http://semiengineering.com/fab-challenges-at-7nm-and-5nm/ But who knows ?

it makes them believe that PS4K is a cheap PC replacement for the "I want 1080p, high settings and 60fps" crowd. This standard is only held up by Neogaf and other gaming boards..

I am not so sure, remember COD sells almost 20 million each year, every year, and console players choose it because its a 60 FPS shooter and has that COD feel.

 

[komorebi]

You do know your assumption that playing sgames on standard ps4, "might mean even worse performance" is borderline fud right?

Nope. Read the OP for starters, look at the last 6 years of gaming, look at the current market, look at "AAA" development times and "day one patches", look at the big name publishers releasing games with shit performance (Fallout 4, AssCreed, and so on), look at the sales of those games and what the public seems to prioritize. I mean come on, its already been stated: "significant sacrifices". The writing is on the wall where this will lead.

I'll gladly be wrong but I don't see them even maintaining the already iffy performance level of current gen games when publishers know they can crank things even more as long as they make sure the PS4 version is "playable" by current standards.

This 60fps bullshit on Neogaf.

I will buy the PS4K cause I want to own the newest model. I realy dont care about the frames above 30. If I can choose I will always choose graphics with a stable 30fps.

See? And so far "stable 30fps" has been extremely rare.

 

[hwy_61]

Wonder how many publishers already rub their belly thinking about the opportunity of 4k remasters.

Is that jump considerably more expensive than the remastered we've gotten this gen?

 

[GHG]

We are almost on page 200 and "significant sacrifices" is still being discussed...

I'm out.

 

[DieH@rd]

Wonder how many publishers already rub their belly thinking about the opportunity of 4k remasters.

There will be none. 2x GPU increase will mean that PS4K will be able to play PS4 games in a bit better state. 1080p30>1080p60 bump, or 900p60 to 1080p60 with better visual sliders. Things like that.

As someone mentioned it here, look at this like the difference between GTX970 and 980Ti. Both of those cards can deliver great gaming, but one is better than another.

 

[Cyborg]

This 60fps bullshit on Neogaf.

I will buy the PS4K cause I want to own the newest model. I realy dont care about the frames above 30. If I can choose I will always choose graphics with a stable 30fps.

 

[hwy_61]

This 60fps bullshit on Neogaf.

I will buy the PS4K cause I want to own the newest model. I realy dont care about the frames above 30. If I can choose I will always choose graphics with a stable 30fps.

I disagree. FPS makes all the difference in the world, man.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah it's the psychology of the perception of something being taken away from you by virtue of someone else getting more. Even if in reality you're getting no less than before. It's a powerful psychology that consoles appealed to strongly, the sense of 'we are all equal'... Tip toeing around that will be an important part of the messaging and marketing.

And with this quote from GoFreak, I've finally hit my last stage of grief. Acceptance.

When I heard this news and the Xbox 1.5 news, I was in the shock and denial stage. But over the last 2 weeks I've been rolling through the different stages of grief. But you post perfectly explains what was going on in my head.

It was the perception of losing something that really won't really change in reality. I've come to realize that the difference in the games coming out on the PS4K won't be that much different from my OG PS4.

It wouldn't make sense economically for a company to focus on 2 million PS4Ks over 50+ million PS4s.

 

[Chû Totoro]

Wonder how many publishers already rub their belly thinking about the opportunity of 4k remasters.

I haven't played a lot remasters and I won't buy any that has just a better resolution / frame rate.

If there's VR or better AI with more NPC etc. maybe (then it's more a remake imo) but if they decide to go for PC like upgrade I guess the least we could have is that the previous games can be improved on the new system.

You buy a PC in 2010 and bought The Division this year then the time you'll upgrade your PC The Division will run better on your PC without anything to pay again.

 

[jelly]

We are almost on page 200 and "significant sacrifices" is still being discussed...

I'm out.

Wise decision, it could be any one of us. No going back if you're chosen.

 

[Rice-Eater]

This 60fps bullshit on Neogaf.

I will buy the PS4K cause I want to own the newest model. I realy dont care about the frames above 30. If I can choose I will always choose graphics with a stable 30fps.

On the subject of this, I wonder if their will be more than just 2 settings. Could you really increase the settings to have a lower FPS or basically have OG PS4 graphics at 60 while the actual OG PS4 does 30fps? It's cool to think about but I guess in the end we'll just get 2 different settings, one for OG PS4 and one for the PS4k.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I am a physics guy, many years ago used to work in Motorola fab, 14 nm is bloody small and has taken aloooong time to get there.

I am a pessimist and think the next steps will be too much for low cost stuff.

[http://semiengineering.com/fab-challenges-at-7nm-and-5nm/

But who knows ?

Yup, there's a limit when it comes to shrinking (well, obviously). And at some point the cost benefit ratio may be better with the bigger one for quite some time.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

This 60fps bullshit on Neogaf.

I will buy the PS4K cause I want to own the newest model. I realy dont care about the frames above 30. If I can choose I will always choose graphics with a stable 30fps.

Don't worry. Most games will likely still prioritize the eye candy. It would be nice to play the 60fps games like Battlefield at a native 1080p though.

 

[lemmykoopa]

I find it strange to hear talks already about an upgraded PS4 when no game currently released already scratched the surface of what the machine is really capable of at maximum levels. Maybe Driveclub and the upcoming Uncharted 4? Has naughty dogs already commented how much % they are pushing the PS4 with UC4?

 

[Cyborg]

I disagree. FPS makes all the difference in the world, man.

For you!
It never affected my gaming experience

 

[Ragona]

I find it strange to hear talks already about an upgraded PS4 when no game currently released already scratched the surface of what the machine is really capable of at maximum levels. Maybe Driveclub and the upcoming Uncharted 4? Has naughty dogs already commented how much % they are pushing the PS4 with UC4?

Well didnt they have to unlock a CPU core after developer requests?

 

[travisbickle]

Yeah it's the psychology of the perception of something being taken away from you by virtue of someone else getting more. Even if in reality you're getting no less than before. It's a powerful psychology that consoles appealed to strongly, the sense of 'we are all equal'... Tip toeing around that will be an important part of the messaging and marketing.

That perception will be a minority. I can imagine that by winter 2017 there will be a PS4K on shelves at $399, a new model of PS4 at $250, and the old model only really available in small numbers/second-hand market at <199. And the majority will choose based on their budget, probably picking PS4K if they have a 4K TV.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

Well that sucks, so for us poor saps who recently bought a PS4 we'll get stuck with sub 30fps shit while the new PS4K runs everything correctly? There's no way devs won't target 30fps on the newer model which means the old PS4 will be SOL.

 

[Demanufacture]

For you!
It never affected my gaming experience

So what's the point of getting the new box?

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I find it strange to hear talks already about an upgraded PS4 when no game currently released already scratched the surface of what the machine is really capable of at maximum levels. Maybe Driveclub and the upcoming Uncharted 4? Has naughty dogs already commented how much % they are pushing the PS4 with UC4?

Uncharted 4 could not run at the 1080p/60fps target they wanted so I would say they are starting to max it out already. Drive Club is a 30fps racing game.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

So what's the point of getting the new box?

He wants prettier graphics and more bells and whistles

 

[Jigolo]

This whole thread is a joke, lol. PS4 multiplats will suddenly be atrocious now? Every game will be 60 FPS now on this new console?

I hope devs still make their games in 30 fps just to fuck with you guys

 

[QaaQer]

It's not the same without buttocks on a train.

He was Legend.

My best gaf memory was seeing those blue buttocks smash against the window in that gif for the first time. Good times.

They also have a gold mine caliber of 'Disney-like' IP's/Mascotts, so it is good they are finally realizing this, and doing that deal with Universal Theme Parks.

They've always known and they also know it is a depreciating asset currently. Which is why they need to get the next generation of kids onboard, and to do that, they need to be in mobile and f2p. Also, transmedia.

 

[lemmykoopa]

Uncharted 4 could not run at the 1080p/60fps target they wanted so I would say they are starting to max it out already. Drive Club is a 30fps racing game.

But all the previous uncharted games were also 30 fps. Uncharted has always been about maximising eye candy at a near constant 30 fps no?

 

[velociraptor]

But all the previous uncharted games were also 30 fps. Uncharted has always been about maximising eye candy at a near constant 30 fps no?

The original target was 1080p60

 

[geordiemp]

It wouldn't make sense economically for a company to focus on 2 million PS4Ks over 50+ million PS4s.

Good post, I went though the emotions within a few hours and came to your last line conclusion very quickly.

How many Ps4 vs xb1 games are parity for damn sake. Ps4K will sell 2-5 million in 2017 my best guess and there will be 70 million xb1 + ps4 owners. Most 3rd parties will not give a damn in 2017 to ps4k.

Ps4K will get some titles like maybe no mans sky in psvr as I just cant see that game running at 60 FPS consistently on Ps4. PSVR needs 60 FPS consistently to reproject to 120 as we know.

Thats why I also think the Ps4k upgrades will target an APU design to do 60 FPS (CPU and bandwidth) as that is what is needed for PSVR for the more taxing titles like say elite dangerous or project cars..... Just my guess.

 

[Garani]

My son, who is 13 and basically wastes* his time getting the most out of "his" PS4 has commented the news like this: "Who cares, as long as I can keep playing on my PS4 and the big screen in the lounge."

So, if I get a PS4K is because I want to have a 4K device for our new 4K enabled TV. And probably it wouldn't be worth it either.

* Wastes is the sense that instead of getting drugged in some back alley, he is playing with people that speak a language that he doesn't know and practices his english. So, yeah, I am happy to let him waste his 1 hour per day on the PS4

 

[……forgetit]

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/ultra-hd-blu-ray-specs-dates-and-titles/


http://www.whathifi.com/how-to/ultra-hd-blu-ray-everything-you-need-to-know



You won't have to have a 4k TV to experience this to its fullest. Majority of the games are going to be upscaled from 1080p.

I get it now, but wow looking around at the price of the new Blu Ray players, jeez.

Rule me out, As i'll also need a 4K tv to support it and cant justify buying a tv just for a console, As here in the UK barely anything broadcasts in UHD and you can count on one hand the netflix shows that support it too.

So i'll buy the new craze instead with PSVR and not worry too much about the stop gap console.

What? I mean you didn't need to buy an HD TV to use a PS3, heck I have a 720p TV even though both my PS4 and Wii U output at 1080p.

 

[Vashetti]

I find it strange to hear talks already about an upgraded PS4 when no game currently released already scratched the surface of what the machine is really capable of at maximum levels. Maybe Driveclub and the upcoming Uncharted 4? Has naughty dogs already commented how much % they are pushing the PS4 with UC4?

We're not going to have PS3-esque game improvements over time. In the PS3 days, the Cell CPU was notoriously difficult to work with, with Sony having poor documentation and dev tools in comparison to what MS provided with the 360.

This led to PS3's 'renaissance' toward the end of last-gen where you had beautiful titles like Uncharted 3, TLOU, GoW: Ascension, Beyond: Two Souls, etc. Multi-plat titles generally got better overall too.

This was down to Sony improving their documentation and SDK tools for devs. So as the gen progressed, the console was 'unlocked' so to speak.

This time around, both PS4 and XB1 are mostly using off-the-shelf PC parts and x86 architectures. The max potential of both consoles are known quantities. Sure you'll see minor improvements as devs improve their engines, and Sony and MS will likely give back some more RAM to devs, but we're not going to see PS3-style jumps between games over the years.

 

[wapplew]

What I don't understand is why some people are so against this happening. Do some people not like progress or something?

Consoles are the only gaming platform which doesn't progress for long periods of time. The PC, tablets and mobile are all subject to yearly hardware improvements. Meanwhile with consoles things don't progress for 5-7 years at a time. How is that healthy for the industry and the companies involved?

Apple, Samsung and Nvidia are currently raking it in while AMD are looking on from the outside and are probably pushing for this to happen more than anyone because it looks like being their biggest opportunity moving forwards.

In addition, with the rising costs of development it no longer makes sense to have to scrap everything every 5-7 years and start from scratch with a new platform to develop for with an initial small user base. Why not just have a single platform that is built upon incrementally, easing the burden for developers and allowing them to have access to millions of customers to sell to at all times?

It all makes too much sense but some of you are whining because it means you will feel inferior if someone gets the newer version of your platform of choice while you are stuck with the older version. Well let me tell you, I'm still on my OG iPad Air and I can still play any new game that's released for the platform without any problems. I'm also still on my i5 3570k and can play any new PC game that comes out. Would I get better performance on both platforms if I upgraded? Yes. But do I have to? No. And that's all that matters.

Personally, I just don't want console turn into PC/mobile.
Developers get to make games for specific hardware is console advantage, I don't want to lose that.
What you describe, it's what I hate, same game better performance, that's most the progress bring you.
For example, we heard mobile as strong as a console year over year, but where are those console quality games?

In fact, PC/Mobile model will make it hard to add new feature, invention or control scheme.
They can't add those thing for the sake of forward compatible.

 

[Apparition]

14nm is not half of 28nm in reality. The rules of the game have changed in the past few years. Here is a good read on the subject.

Further shrinkage might prove difficult. Even the mighty Intel has dropped the Tick-Tock cycle in favor of a 3-step one (Process-Architecture-Optimization).

That said, we have been stuck at 28nm for an awful long time but that didn't deter companies from improving their designs and manufacturing processes to introduce better hardware. Sony even managed to slightly improve the design of the PS4 last year without reducing the node size. So even if we are stuck with 14nm for the next 3-5 years, the combination of some technologies and techniques could enable the PS5 to arrive with enough oomph.

The question is if companies will start doing incremental updates from now on, or do a major one followed by an incremental one.

 

[mckmas8808]

I am a physics guy, many years ago used to work in Motorola fab, 14 nm is bloody small and has taken aloooong time to get there.

I am a pessimist and think the next steps will be too much for low cost stuff.

[http://semiengineering.com/fab-challenges-at-7nm-and-5nm/ But who knows ?



I am not so sure, remember COD sells almost 20 million each year, every year, and console players choose it because its a 60 FPS shooter and has that COD feel.

But who is to say that in 2019, Sony engineers can't get more out of 14nm GPUs than they can today? Nvidia's Pascal is suppose to have the bandwidth of 1TB. That's insanely high compared to current day consoles.

If the PS5 has 64GBs and 1TB of bandwith, with a 12 Teraflop GPU, then it will make the PS4K look like some old dusty last gen machine.

 

[On Demand]

And with this quote from GoFreak, I've finally hit my last stage of grief. Acceptance.

When I heard this news and the Xbox 1.5 news, I was in the shock and denial stage. But over the last 2 weeks I've been rolling through the different stages of grief. But you post perfectly explains what was going on in my head.

It was the perception of losing something that really won't really change in reality. I've come to realize that the difference in the games coming out on the PS4K won't be that much different from my OG PS4.

It wouldn't make sense economically for a company to focus on 2 million PS4Ks over 50+ million PS4s.

You guys fold too easy. This is a complete dumb decision and nothing will change that fact.

And lol at people who are against this being boiled down to not having the best system as the reason. This isn't PS4 vs XB1, multiple hardware releases changes the whole idea why people buy consoles in the first place.

 

[lemmykoopa]

We're not going to have PS3-esque game improvements over time. In the PS3 days, the Cell CPU was notoriously difficult to work with, with Sony having poor documentation and dev tools in comparison to what MS provided with the 360.

This led to PS3's 'renaissance' toward the end of last-gen where you had beautiful titles like Uncharted 3, TLOU, GoW: Ascension, Beyond: Two Souls, etc. Multi-plat titles generally got better overall too.

This was down to Sony improving their documentation and SDK tools for devs. So as the gen progressed, the console was 'unlocked' so to speak.

This time around, both PS4 and XB1 are mostly using off-the-shelf PC parts and x86 architectures. The max potential of both consoles are known quantities. Sure you'll see minor improvements as devs improve their engines, and Sony and MS will likely give back some more RAM to devs, but we're not going to see PS3-style jumps between games over the years.

Thanks to elaborate.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

You guys fold too easy. This is a complete dumb decision and nothing will change that fact.

And lol at people who are against this being boiled down to not having the best system as the reason. This isn't PS4 vs XB1, multiple hardware releases changes the whole idea why people buy consoles in the first place.

This is the exact reason many people are against it.

 

[geordiemp]

But who is to say that in 2019, Sony engineers can't get more out of 14nm GPUs than they can today? Nvidia's Pascal is suppose to have the bandwidth of 1TB. That's insanely high compared to current day consoles.

If the PS5 has 64GBs and 1TB of bandwith, with a 12 Teraflop GPU, then it will make the PS4K look like some old dusty last gen machine.

12 TF is the new 17 billion transistor mega chip from Nvidia (14 nm Titan and then some whatever lol). No way will we ever get that in a small console - I would love to live long enough to see the day !

Its amd / sony, and at 14 nm amd / sony will probably go as big as they can cost wise this year, so thats it. Maybe they could go 30 or 40 % bigger at 14 nm as costs come down a bit, but who cares ? Thats not a ps5 generational leap is it ?

 

[ThirdEye]

Do you guys have any pic of a game that are made possible with 2x PS4 power or a GeForce GTX 970? If it's impressive enough upgrade will be smoother

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

We are almost on page 200 and "significant sacrifices" is still being discussed...

I'm out.

This is why the thread starter has to be careful about the way things are worded as what he wrote has sent out a certain message and idea about the machine. How do we know what he is saying he heard is correct? Until we get official unveil the scaremongering is silly.

 

[Markoman]

I am not so sure, remember COD sells almost 20 million each year, every year, and console players choose it because its a 60 FPS shooter and has that COD feel.

WAT? No, never heard of that. People buy COD because it's COD. Not because the 60fps are a USP for that franchise or something. Did COD players complain about the reuse of the same engine for 6+ games last gen? Is it really the feel or the game or the fact that it's a modern based twitch shooter with no direct competition - and maybe this is what the majority likes about those games (I don't consider BF to be a twitch shooter) Do 50mio.+ people play Minecraft or GTAV on consoles because of FPS?

 

[omonimo]

This whole thread is a joke, lol. PS4 multiplats will suddenly be atrocious now? Every game will be 60 FPS now on this new console?

I hope devs still make their games in 30 fps just to fuck with you guys

Do you have seen AC Unity? That's what happens to the weaker hardware when games are thought with higher specs in mind.

 

[onQ123]

You guys fold too easy. This is a complete dumb decision and nothing will change that fact.

And lol at people who are against this being boiled down to not having the best system as the reason. This isn't PS4 vs XB1, multiple hardware releases changes the whole idea why people buy consoles in the first place.

How the hell is it a dumb decision to cater to 4K TV owners who don't have much media for their 4K TVs yet? this isn't about the people who already own a PS4. no one is hurting you by progressing you're hurting yourself by worrying about what others have, if you was happy before they made a PS4K you should continue to be happy instead of trying to hold everyone else back.


People do not buy consoles just because it take 5 or more years before a new one comes out they buy consoles because it's a simple way to play games that they like.

 

[jelly]

They might not know what 60fps is but it feels better is probably a thing with the masses.

 

[Equanimity]

You guys fold too easy. This is a complete dumb decision and nothing will change that fact.

And lol at people who are against this being boiled down to not having the best system as the reason. This isn't PS4 vs XB1, multiple hardware releases changes the whole idea why people buy consoles in the first place.

My idea of buying a console is to play games with relative ease in comparison to PC and I prefer exclusives from Sony, Nintendo and Xbox. I welcome the new generation of iterative consoles.

What you said is most certainly not a fact.

 

[bunbun777]

For a beast this powerful to be summoned of course sacrifices will have to be made.

*evil laughter*

 

[……forgetit]

12 TF is the new 17 billion transistor mega chip from Nvidia (14 nm Titan and then some whatever lol). No way will we ever get that in a small console - I would love to live long enough to see the day !

Its amd / sony, and at 14 nm amd / sony will probably go as big as they can cost wise this year, so thats it. Maybe they could go 30 or 40 % bigger at 14 nm as costs come down a bit, but who cares ? Thats not a ps5 generational leap is it ?

We'll never get it is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Tech improvements come, heat management improves, prices go down. I don't think it's crazy to imagine Titan X power in a console a decade for now.

On a different note I actually hope this is the death of the traditional console cycle and instead we'll have incremental upgrades every 2-3 years. It doesn't make sense anymore to completely dump an old platform. The fact that both Microsoft and Sony went with off the self parts and the common x86 architecture should pretty kill the idea of a tradition PS5 and Xbox two or whatever they'd be called.