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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480

geordiemp

Member
But this is not the same as “we swap the CPU two weeks before deadline“.

But the deadline is Xmas sales, as long as they release before Xmas then they are fine. If Sony take the low CPU power route, they are stuck with that for 3-4 years.

It would piss off the most dedicated fans if they start iterative every few years, they need to make good decisions now.
 
Many are also sure that Sony can increase clocks like at free will.
It's a combination of hope and that we don't know anything for sure.

Yup. I'm pretty sure using zen would delay Sony as well. It seems to me that using better stuff means a delay and going back to the drawing board to stress test models and designs to ensure they don't overheat. MS wasn't estimated to release later in 2017 just because they felt like it.

I suppose the question is who really needs to come out with it first. I think sony pushing PSVR might cause them to put it out first as it's a big investment for them.
 

Anion

Member
I just don't understand, why isn't this called a PS5? I'm guessing there is a possibility it could be but the power difference seems big enough?
 

geordiemp

Member
I just don't understand, why isn't this called a PS5? I'm guessing there is a possibility it could be but the power difference seems big enough?

Because there wont be any Neo / ps5 only games. All games will be Ps4 labelled and work on Ps4 but have an Neo enhanced mode.

A Ps5 would have ps5 games and maybe backwards compatible with ps4.
 

John Wick

Member
According to Sony fanboys the speed increase for the CPU on Xbox One wasn't significant relative to games performance so this won't be either.

Did you really write that? We don't know what CPU they will use in final PS4K. But if it's the current CPU and they've increased the speed by 30% then that's a significant number. 8% isn't going to set the world on fire when your GPU is 40% weaker now is it?
Also with a much more powerful GPU developers could use the extra muscle for Cpu related tasks to ease the burden.
 

Caio

Member
It's possible to have the GPU clocked at 1Ghz ? Polaris is so cool, I believe it's possible, and we would have almost 4.6TF; but what about the CPU then ? It should be a lot more powerful than current PS4 CPU, and it's not enough clocking it at 2.1Ghz; you would need two of them or the same clocked at 3.2Ghz. And I'm still worried about the memory bandwidth of the new System; I hope Sony will release a very balanced Console.
 

Anion

Member
Because there wont be any Neo / ps5 only games. All games will be Ps4 labelled and work on Ps4 but have an Neo enhanced mode.

A Ps5 would have ps5 games and maybe backwards compatible with ps4.
Hmm that's interesting, I honestly don't know anything of this iteration and microsofts iteration.

So it would seem plausible that this is the VR capable version then whereas the regular is just for TV screens. Actually pretty clever setup
 

c0de

Member
But the deadline is Xmas sales, as long as they release before Xmas then they are fine. If Sony take the low CPU power route, they are stuck with that for 3-4 years.

It would piss off the most dedicated fans if they start iterative every few years, they need to make good decisions now.

No the deadline is way before that. They have to finalize the chip, as well as the whole console in terms of power and heat and have to get a decent amount of chips ready to be built into the case, which also depends on the yield rate.
 

EGM1966

Member
I just don't understand, why isn't this called a PS5? I'm guessing there is a possibility it could be but the power difference seems big enough?

Pretty simple:

  • Sony want PS4 to keep selling in bulk - you don't release a PS5 if you want that
  • Sony want to have a model better aligned to VR - that's a within gen revision a'la PS4.5 not a PS5
  • Sony want to test waters of mid gen revisions to try and reduce impact of generation changes - again you don't go to PS5 you go to PS4.5 to try that
  • Sony wants to limit impact of MS trying to change gen fast with a more powerful console - again they don't release a clear PS5 for that they go with a PS4.5 and keep association with PS4 as being "the one"

So no PS5. That's why the power isn't of a generation change. It's a mid generation revision intended to appeal to those wanting short generation and new toys while keeping current generation valid for majority and PS4 selling well.
 
I just don't understand, why isn't this called a PS5? I'm guessing there is a possibility it could be but the power difference seems big enough?

Its not a big enough power jump to call it PS5, also Sony documents show that all games will work on both PS4 and Neo.

Calling it PS5 and releasing exclusive games would piss off a lot of people that have just bought a PS4. My guess would be a PS5 will come 2019/20, with a real push for 4K gaming.
 
No the deadline is way before that. They have to finalize the chip, as well as the whole console in terms of power and heat and have to get a decent amount of chips ready to be built into the case, which also depends on the yield rate.

Yeah doesn't take like a year or zo to prepare. Linda like with Xbox one wouldnt launch with such low specs compared to ps4
and that Microsoft would inprove the Xbox one before lauch.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Doesn't the original rumor says 5-6 tf for the Scorpio, which got twisted by Polygon's prime MS fanboy (Gies) to become 6 tf? If the Neo is 4.5 and the Scorpio is around 5 tf, that seems close enough to be irrelevant.
 

AmyS

Member
I just don't understand, why isn't this called a PS5? I'm guessing there is a possibility it could be but the power difference seems big enough?

Because a console with only just over twice the GPU power and a ~30% CPU clockspeed increase, the same amount of RAM with modestly higher bandwidth cannot and should not be called PS5.
Neo is a beefier PS4, not a next generation console.
 
Because a console with only just over twice the GPU power and a ~30% CPU clockspeed increase, the same amount of RAM with modestly higher bandwidth cannot and should not be called PS5.
Neo is a beefier PS4, not a next generation console.

yep for eg i expect PS5 when it comes out on 2019\2020 going be a bandwidth monster .
 

thelastword

Banned
I think people are way to caught up with 4K at the moment. For Neo it doesn't make much sense to waste extra resources for the resolution bump. Most gamers don't have 4K sets and if sonys listening most complaints come from framerates. If all neo games run at 60fps with extra graphical bells and whistles then it will do well. I say worry about 4K gaming when PS5 launches..... Right now it just doesn't make sense considering most consumers won't have the displays for 4K and by the time it really takes off like it is starting to with some decent priced sets then PS5 can really cater to the ultraHD consumer.
Alternatively they could just offer a 60fps/1080p ultra settings mode with good AA and a native 4k/30fps mode at medium settings. Options are certainly not a bad thing and 4K screen adoption is gaining lots of momentum with all the UHD content coming, 4K gaming will just seal that and of course, as it's in their company's interest to do so.

It's a bit off-topic but I was SO HAPPY last two years when the dust settled and we could all just enjoy games.
As much as I am excited about new news I HATE what it does to people and level of discussion.
All of a sudden a lot of people put on their fanboy hats and games are not the most important anymore until the dust settles again....
I don't think this little discussion in this remote part of the internet is having too much impact on how anyone perceive games or how much you should enjoy them. You don't view your games differently just because persons are having a back and fourth on the hardware that powers them. It's part of the equation too you know.

It's possible to have the GPU clocked at 1Ghz ? Polaris is so cool, I believe it's possible, and we would have almost 4.6TF; but what about the CPU then ? It should be a lot more powerful than current PS4 CPU, and it's not enough clocking it at 2.1Ghz; you would need two of them or the same clocked at 3.2Ghz. And I'm still worried about the memory bandwidth of the new System; I hope Sony will release a very balanced Console.
Be careful what you wish for, the last "balanced console released" was the XB1 "according to Digital Foundry" citing all their balanced articles prior to the XB1's release ;)

That balanced console came out to be severely underpowered, it had to boost clockrates, it had to drop Kinect to gain some cycles and it's still only able to muster 1280*800 in a golf game by EX critierion devs. I can only imagine what that console would be like if MS did not try to free up cycles for the launched XB1 or upped the clockrate to feed their 3 layered OS..........


I think, the push for NEO is two fold, VR and 4K gaming/content, I'm pretty sure there will be a 4k option on the dashboard, so the more power Sony can get in an iterative console at this point is what they are going to pursue. It's the very reason they have been considering a more powerful CPU (for an extra $100.00), which will also help boost the GPU to 1.2GHz or beyond.

People thinking this is just a stop gap measure are fooling themselves, you need as much power as is possible for 4K content and gaming and I doubt Sony will want to concede it's power advantage to MS at this point. As for PS5, if the NEO/Scorpio launches this year or early next year I don't think we will see a PS5/XB2 till 2020/21. Vega with 8Gb's of HBM2 and Zen is not going to make it into an iterative console, not even early next year. The PS5/XB2 will most likely be Navi 3 + Zen 3 at this point.
 

Odorono

Banned
Doesn't the original rumor says 5-6 tf for the Scorpio, which got twisted by Polygon's prime MS fanboy (Gies) to become 6 tf? If the Neo is 4.5 and the Scorpio is around 5 tf, that seems close enough to be irrelevant.

Just like the power difference between the Xbox and the PS4 is irrelevant now right?
 

LordOfChaos

Member
I shouldn't post in these threads because they're so painful, but I believe you are mistaking lane/thread counts in the wave dispatch with graphics vs. compute rings.

The original AMD GCN architecture allowed for one source of graphics commands, and two sources of compute commands. For PS4, we’ve worked with AMD to increase the limit to 64 sources of compute commands — the idea is if you have some asynchronous compute you want to perform, you put commands in one of these 64 queues, and then there are multiple levels of arbitration in the hardware to determine what runs, how it runs, and when it runs, alongside the graphics that’s in the system.
.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...avily-modified-radeon-supercharged-apu-design
 
Just like the power difference between the Xbox and the PS4 is irrelevant now right?

Up until 2 weeks ago, it pretty much was. Now all of sudden being the most powerful console is so important.

If this saga has taught us anything, it's shown how full of shit some people on this forum are.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Just like the power difference between the Xbox and the PS4 is irrelevant now right?

4.5 to 5 is significantly less (in percent) than 1.3 to 1.8. And history has shown that 40% does translate to a fairly significant game experience. 12% or so is insignificant and not enough to translate to any higher resolution on one console compared to the other.
 
The consoles will just be rebranded "PlayStation" and "Xbox". Mark my words.

PlayStation will always keep the numbering, PS4K is just spot on for marketing. Also PS5 will focus the medias attention more than a new PlayStation. Simply branding it PlayStation will also confuse the causal audience who already have a PlayStation.
 

Beefy

Member
Just like the power difference between the Xbox and the PS4 is irrelevant now right?

Outside US and UK? Most probably. Yes it would get a few more people to buy a Scorpio but PS would still dominate. If MS wants to start breaking into places like Europe they need to change how people see their brand.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Straight to NeoGAF shit post of the day.

Doesn't sound that unreasonable to me, the potential power difference between the two isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things
 

Josman

Member
Both consoles will use this GPU, it's the best value one, people are fooling themselve unless they actually believe MS wants to suicide launcing a more expensive console or at a later date, It's Gies,the man who said the X1 was going to be more powerful that caused this rumor.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Doesn't sound that unreasonable to me, the potential power difference between the two isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things

Now, if the difference is not 12% but rather 50%, that will introduce differences in games.
 
Straight to NeoGAF shit post of the day.

That's cute. Nice argument you got there.

How is that a shit post? Looks like yours is the shit post really.

It's the implication that suddenly having more power is now irrelevant, the ONLY topic when talking about the PS4/Xbox One hardware.

As someone who has been a member on this forum for many years, it's very easy to see how fickle some people can be.
 
Yup. I'm pretty sure using zen would delay Sony as well. It seems to me that using better stuff means a delay and going back to the drawing board to stress test models and designs to ensure they don't overheat. MS wasn't estimated to release later in 2017 just because they felt like it.

I suppose the question is who really needs to come out with it first. I think sony pushing PSVR might cause them to put it out first as it's a big investment for them.
The CPU choice as seen in Carrizio is Excavator and Puma + in Carrizio-L (low power). I think ZEN is too power hungry for a console and it only has a 40% IPC increase over the latest Excavator.

Sony can use GDDR5 because they moved the ARM IP out of the APU into Southbridge with it's own DDR3 so Polaris and either Puma+ or Excavator for the CPU

MS later in 2017 was because they have to use HBM 2 and thus Vega because of the ARM accelerator blocks and Network standby. They could use ZEN but would have to scale back the GPU so I think they will use Excavator or Puma+. With Vega I believe the Southbridge is moved into the SoC which eliminates several video bandwidth issues and they can use a cheaper camera like Sony does. The power being used in the PS4 NEO GDDR5 will not be needed with HBM2 so it can be used for a larger GPU which is why Scorpio should have a significant bump in TF but likely at increased BOM.

Puma +, Excavator and Zen are designed to use DDR3/4 not GDDR5 or HBM2 so there would be a custom Northbridge in both consoles. How much the clock is scaled back in the PS4 NEO from Polaris @ 150 Watt TDP to allow for the CPU should tell us what CPU is being used. APX 30% clock reduction should give in excess of 40 watts and Jaguar maxed out at 30 watts @ 28nm. it should be 40% of that on 14nm FinFET or 12 watts so why is NEO clocked so low?. Someone needs to check my math and assumptions but I think Excavator will be used.

Excavator uses 25 watts max per core pair @ 28nm
. 4 core pairs = 8 CPUs = 100 watts at 28nm or 40 watts at 14nm FinFET.
 

EGM1966

Member
Doesn't the original rumor says 5-6 tf for the Scorpio, which got twisted by Polygon's prime MS fanboy (Gies) to become 6 tf? If the Neo is 4.5 and the Scorpio is around 5 tf, that seems close enough to be irrelevant.

Rumour was "targeting" 5 to 6. Polygon (Geis) of course fixated on the upper figure.

Of course if Scorpio is real and comes out 12 months or so later I would expect it to have some kind of power advantage otherwise MS literally will have messed up.

The question is how much and how much difference will it make and whether Neo/Scorpio are intended for same audience or not (I'm not sure they are BTW).

As more expensive options and with both apparently more about having a VR orientated device I'm not convinced either will (or is even intended to) become the new must have console (although I think in MS case I could see a revision selling more in ratio to current model than a PS4.5 to PS4 - not as a negative but because I could see the smaller XB1 hardcore install base upgrading and XB1 sales dipping vs PS4 continuing to sell very well with PS4.5 getting hardcore).
 

Aceofspades

Banned
Because there wont be any Neo / ps5 only games. All games will be Ps4 labelled and work on Ps4 but have an Neo enhanced mode.

A Ps5 would have ps5 games and maybe backwards compatible with ps4.

This is exactly what I thought, PS4 and Neo will be a generation of their own. PS5 will start a new gen with separate OS and PSN servers.

So PS5 will have a new architecture that may be able to be backward compatible with PS4/Neo games.
 

Tetranet

Member
So I guess making new consoles every second year will be how AMD survives. But a once proud PC hardware company reduced to making weak consoles, can we really call that "life" or is it more akin to undeath?

I'm pretty sure contracts worth billions make them more proud than any retail change ever could.
 
This is exactly what I thought, PS4 and Neo will be a generation of their own. PS5 will start a new gen with separate OS and PSN servers.

So PS5 will have a new architecture that may be able to be backward compatible with PS4/Neo games.

I really don't see them redoing their OS and servers. It's going to be like iOS in terms of feature improvements but interface-wise I expect it to look pretty much the same.
 

thelastword

Banned
Both consoles will use this GPU, it's the best value one, people are fooling themselve unless they actually believe MS wants to suicide launcing a more expensive console or at a later date, It's Gies,the man who said the X1 was going to be more powerful that caused this rumor.
Precisely put, MS has spent a lot on boosting the XB1 and trying to make it viable along the PS4, that included handing a tonne of games for free, selling the XB1 way below what they intended. With a smaller userbase we also have less game sales, less people on LIVE, so it's sort of a domino effect of problems for them.

The biggest issue for MS right now, is that many of it's studio acquisitions and first party studios are branching out or closing down, many games are being cancelled. Many games are in limbo and many are underperforming. Games like Halo5 and Quantum Break did much worse than they anticipated, so is the popularity of their first party games, it's dwindling swiftly and the studios at their disposal are not that great. I think that's the biggest concern for MS, hence why they're trying to branch out to Windows 10/PC to target a bigger demographic for their wares.

I said this to say; since MS have spent so much on R&D for the XB1, we're talking about Kinect 2.0, their controller, the new elite controller... This is a lot of money spent that's not making it's way back to them in a hurry, yet they had to spend so much more marketing dollars, giving away so many games and massively reduce the XB1 s price to gain sales/market share at the second holiday season....We can all imagine how much they've spent trying to get the XB1 on track (and that includes all those tweaks and give-backs in the SDK).....all of this certainly adds on....

So yes, how is it that MS will take on a massive chance on an iterative console, bring on Zen + Vega, most likely to be sold at $5-600 or eat yet again a massive lost at $350-400? Investors and shareholders would be furious, because there's no guarantee that such a venture would be successful, especially when you consider that MS first party studios are not very strong and their rep not that great currently. Having a more powerful console is a huge gamble for MS, because if it fails, it will be a huge money pit.

On the flip, having a more powerful console is less of a gamble for Sony because they possess the mindshare and first party studios, granted (things can change), but people thinking MS's pockets are endless and they can just get the most powerful console out with no thought of what else they need to make that work or no thought of possible failure are clearly not seeing the bigger picture. If all it takes was to put the most powerful hardware out, then many prior console generations would have ended up differently
 

c0de

Member
This is exactly what I thought, PS4 and Neo will be a generation of their own. PS5 will start a new gen with separate OS and PSN servers.

So PS5 will have a new architecture that may be able to be backward compatible with PS4/Neo games.

I ask because I read it several times now: what exactly is a new architecture to you and why do you say “may be able to be bc“?
 
Anything Sony does will be less of a gamble at this point, they have just captured the mindshare so well and efficiently this generation.

Even with launching PS VR as a totally new platform for them, they are still in a better position to launch iterative hardware with a larger userbase.

MS has a tall order to fight with here. But I do expect them to come out swinging. Gonna be exciting to see what happens at E3 and in near future, very exciting.
 

Aceofspades

Banned
I ask because I read it several times now: what exactly is a new architecture to you and why do you say “may be able to be bc“?

New architecture like a seperate CPU/GPU, might go PowerPC + Nvidia (unlikely) or they might do x86 cpu + new separate AMD GPU.

That what I meant by new architecture.
 

bidguy

Banned
4.5 to 5 is significantly less (in percent) than 1.3 to 1.8. And history has shown that 40% does translate to a fairly significant game experience. 12% or so is insignificant and not enough to translate to any higher resolution on one console compared to the other.

sure if you think scorpio will also have the same cpu and ram

neo cpu is straight garbage for todays standards hardly worth getting called an upgrade

its clear as day why sony made the neo i mean giant gpu upgrade and small cpu upclock. we all know vr is gpu intensive so its probably made to smooth out vr experience. they clearly dont give a fuck about putting more power into it and they dont have to really. they already got a huge lead
 
PlayStation will always keep the numbering, PS4K is just spot on for marketing. Also PS5 will focus the medias attention more than a new PlayStation. Simply branding it PlayStation will also confuse the causal audience who already have a PlayStation.

I don't think they can/will use 4k in the branding: I think that 4k means something specific for movies shown in cinemas, which is why all the TV branding is UHD now.
 
So basically Sony is releasing a PS4s and MS is restarting with an X2?

Makes sense from both sides when you think about it. Also, X2 would be 4 years after X1 launch, probably won't piss off that many people if any.

I'm looking forward to hearing from each group. Great games is what it's all about though, I hope both parties are developing these systems with devs in mind.
 
Up until 2 weeks ago, it pretty much was. Now all of sudden being the most powerful console is so important.

If this saga has taught us anything, it's shown how full of shit some people on this forum are.

One console being more powerful doesn't stop the other quite powerful console from shining in games. I for one have never felt being the most powerful was all that important, and so I'll continue to be consistent in that regard. But at this point I'm most excited about a system that can play all Xbox One titles while also being significantly more powerful than an Xbox One. That's a system I really can't wait to own, and also that I can't wait to see what it's capable of when devs really push it.
 

c0de

Member
Up until 2 weeks ago, it pretty much was. Now all of sudden being the most powerful console is so important.

If this saga has taught us anything, it's shown how full of shit some people on this forum are.

Selective reading. There is no “we“ and “them“.
Having the most powerful console has always led to discussions and always will. Don't pretend that these people don't exist on the PlayStation “side“.
 
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