Nestunt
Member
Modular design?
The thoughts are endless!!!
Modular with a power brick
Modular design?
The thoughts are endless!!!
You guys really should pay attention to this post. He is a dev and respected might i add. He's literally telling us to dial it back a notch.This is one of the worst cases of the telephone game I've ever seen.
And also metadata tags for neo in released software are not necessarily indicators of support for anything, I mean sure it's a good bet that Uncharted would be what Sony use to showcase new hardware but jumping to conclusions about deeper meanings and insiders is a surefire way to find yourself disappointed in the future.
(This is in relation to the other stuff that was being talked about in that other thread you linked to)
I mean that persons next post was this http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=207682791&postcount=847 which is full of speculation about stuff you would definitely know if you were making games for consoles and had to know about how new hardware is going to work, it also misinterprets Thuway's question because everything here is a long line of telephone game miss communications. I don't think they are trying to tease you with insider knowledge so much as speculate like most everyone else.
You guys really should pay attention to this post. He is a dev and respected might i add. He's literally telling us to dial it back a notch.
You guys are now talking about secret sauce? Surprises? Cut it out. We know the specs, now to see what sort of improvements they bring. If anything changes so be it. Be happy with what we get.
I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?You guys really should pay attention to this post. He is a dev and respected might i add. He's literally telling us to dial it back a notch.
You guys are now talking about secret sauce? Surprises? Cut it out. We know the specs, now to see what sort of improvements they bring. If anything changes so be it. Be happy with what we get.
I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?
Now I'm just confused.
I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?
Now I'm just confused.
I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?
Now I'm just confused.
That better machine and magic spec bump was just his dream. The reality looks different.
Don't be.
It was a dream that a console releasing this year would rival the specs of a console released next year because power is not relevant and Sony can easily change things in their console to fulfill the dreamiest dreams of dreams.
Tah chaps. I did think it was a pipe dream, although, isn't the plan B thing real?I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a 5.5TF machine. That sort of power does not come cheap, a warmed over jaguar and an adequately clocked GCN 4 based GPU is realistically where Neo will land.
I personally am hoping for there to be minor additions on the CPU side - 64kb L1 caches, slightly larger buffers and improvements to execution unit latency would be nice in addition to the 2.1Ghz speed. Clocking the 2304 core GPU up to 1.05Ghz would be icing on a very delicious speculative cake.
That better machine and magic spec bump was just his dream. The reality looks different.
Tah chaps. I did think it was a pipe dream, although, isn't the plan B thing real?
So are the specs most likely going to be the leaked one? Looks like a great machine. Regarding the whole boost games to 60fps argument, surely Sony wouldn't want the PS4 to run at 30fps and Neo to run at 60fps due to competitive advantages anyway? Well for MP.
Regarding CPU upgrade specifics, I wouldn't say your wishing for too much considering it's semi-custom. Any upgrades for these awful CPU's would be great.
Tah chaps. I did think it was a pipe dream, although, isn't the plan B thing real?
Can someone please explain to me why the hell does Sony need to upgrade the Neo?
Im pretty sure they're releasing the Neo a WHOLE YEAR before the Scorpio, right?
Even if the Neo is "just" a 4.2tf machine, thats 3tf more than what the Xbox One has.
We're going to see a lot more than a resolution difference, for like 12 months..
Mid-gen cycle is a whole new market and Sony have it for themselves for an entire year.
A year head start is all you need people. and a bit of magic.
Just don't see a major CPU upgrade happening. Zen just seems too big and too costly for a mid cycle refresh, in addition such a nice would mean more work for devs who would have to juggle 2 CPU architectures. Potential to break older games. Zen is not even ready in the PC desktop space either and AMD had no other big core.5TF would be great.. 4.2 is enough.
The problem is and remains the cpu and bandwidth. Considering nothing major can be done with bandwidth for the Neo/Polaris, a major cpu improvement is all I really want.
I'm clinging to the dream... aka Osiris' option B.
Tah chaps. I did think it was a pipe dream, although, isn't the plan B thing real?
So are the specs most likely going to be the leaked one? Looks like a great machine. Regarding the whole boost games to 60fps argument, surely Sony wouldn't want the PS4 to run at 30fps and Neo to run at 60fps due to competitive advantages anyway? Well for MP.
Regarding CPU upgrade specifics, I wouldn't say your wishing for too much considering it's semi-custom. Any upgrades for these awful CPU's would be great.
So if it's 4.2 with secret sauce, what exactly is this secret sauce?
Deffo a case of going round in circles here. That new console thirst need quenching with new information.
Every time i come back in the thread...
Completely agree.Can someone please explain to me why the hell does Sony need to upgrade the Neo?
Im pretty sure they're releasing the Neo a WHOLE YEAR before the Scorpio, right?
Even if the Neo is "just" a 4.2tf machine, thats 3tf more than what the Xbox One has.
We're going to see a lot more than a resolution difference, for like 12 months..
Mid-gen cycle is a whole new market and Sony have it for themselves for an entire year.
A year head start is all you need people. and a bit of magic.
Well imagine in PvP Destiny 2, if you had Neo people at 60fps and PS4 folk at 30fps. The Neo players would have a cold hard advantage over PS4 players. Think of the difference in input response times.Why wouldn't Sony want that? That sounds like a selling/marketing point
Well imagine in PvP Destiny 2, if you had Neo people at 60fps and PS4 folk at 30fps. The Neo players would have a cold hard advantage over PS4 players. Think of the difference in input response times.
Can someone please explain to me why the hell does Sony need to upgrade the Neo?
Im pretty sure they're releasing the Neo a WHOLE YEAR before the Scorpio, right?
Even if the Neo is "just" a 4.2tf machine, thats 3tf more than what the Xbox One has.
We're going to see a lot more than a resolution difference, for like 12 months..
Mid-gen cycle is a whole new market and Sony have it for themselves for an entire year.
A year head start is all you need people. and a bit of magic.
Don't you want to run the first party stuff better?, that's the main draw surely as you can have a PC that will beat neo and Scorpio right now if you want.Yeah, I am day 1 (new CPU) to replace my 3 Ps4's. 3 Neos if specs are impressive.
Then next day its Jaguar (shit) why bother, keep 2 Ps4 for Destiny maybe, get some hardware that can do 60 FPS gaming in 2017 for multiplats. No Neo / No PSVR ....Sony loose allot of my custom.
I want hardware that can run 3rd party games like Witcher 3 (CPU hungry) well in 2017, I would prefer on console, and will pay for it with or without Sony. Its up to them really, do they actually listen to what console enthusiasts want or back to old we dont listen Sony.
I would say all of that would also apply to PS4.5 if it got Zen, which would then give it considerably longer legs. None of the price points we're discussing here really indicate disposable hardware, Id hopeWith PS5, if it uses ZEN (and not some seriously cut-down 'Lite' version) it could have the best of both worlds. All the ease of programming & development associated with x86 combined with considerable amount of performance / instructions per clock (IPC) compared to the netbook class Jaguar cores.
whynotboth.gif Sure, pushing GPGPU is great, but having more CPU power is pretty sweet too, especially for any code that also needs to run on PC, where GPGPU isnt always so efficient.What if the intent from Sony is to push more towards GPGPU? How much CPU do you actually need for a modern game engine? In the PC building thread people are still happily using 2500k CPUs and many games are still only using one or two threads so they rely on high clock speeds and powerful CPUs but aren't fully saturating them. Maybe a simple, relatively low powered CPU with 8 hardware threads is enough to do the housekeeping necessary, combined with GPU compute?
Obviously zen is new and the idea of a core i5/i7 equivalent sounds great - but I don't know if it is actually needed rather than just 'ooh shiny'. It's also quite early to be wanting something that isn't out on the market yet and will increase the die size on a still maturing process
I did, actually. A 2.3x GPU increase after 3+ years didnt strike me as much at all, and a 1.3x CPU increase impressed me even less. I was actually thinking I may as well just tick-tock, if thats all we get mid-gen. I also didnt understand why they wouldnt be using all the new hotness coming out right about now.Did you feel this way before you learned that Scorpio would be 6TFlops?
PS3 had a 380W internal power supply and a cooling system designed for a 490W system. PS4 has a 250W supply because they wanted to be able to use a two-prong power cable. http://www.4gamer.net/games/990/G999024/20140120059/You could be right, Osiris mentioned Sony would have to go with an external power brick and I suppose that would leave room internally for a better cooling setup?
So is it impossible for Sony to put in a much better cooling setup, remove the power brick externally, and increase the size of the box to achieve 5.5 TF?
The extra RAM would be nice to extend Neos legs, and even while PS4 is still the primary machine, the extra could be used to actually draw a living room for the PSVR cinema mode, etc. As far as opening the door for devs goes, its a closed platform, so that door will remain locked until Sony say otherwise. ;p12 GB of RAM would be overkill if all your games are to run concurrently with the original PS4. No matter what GPU/CPU the Neo has, if Sony improves the RAM by a substantial amount they are literally giving developers the keys to making games with features/animations/levels that aren't possible on the original PS4.
People are speculating 60CU from the size of the chip from the renders.
Well, if Neo had launched next spring at $499 and 5.5TF, MS couldve gone the other way and try to undercut them with a $399 4TF box of their own. But now theyve already promised 6TF, a year and a half from now. Now if Sony release something similar in the spring, that makes Microsofts delay to the holidays look kinda foolish and pointless, and if MS try to bump Scorpios specs at that point, it makes them look even more like theyre playing catch-up, and drives the price of Scorpio still higher.If Scorpio comes out 6-12 months after Neo, and they have the same suppliers, it would take an idiot in charge to make Scorpio worse than Neo.
The dev kit that went out in January 2013 had four, dual-core Bulldozer CPUs, 8GB RAM, 2.2GB VRAM, and an A10 GPU. That was the final of three pre-release dev kits they sent out, ~ten months before launch, and the hardware was entirely unlike the real PS4. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Development-Kit-Orbis-PlayStation-Bulldozer-Vita,20660.htmlEdit: Now that I read it back the dev kit went out to third parties in January 2013 and so I assume first party had it a few months before that so 4Gbit must have been available to Sony for the dev kits in late 2012 because I can't see that dev kit having 32 2Gbit chips.
Link for this? I searched and all I could find was him saying the better CPU option for Neo was always supposed to be 5.5TF. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=207050836&highlight=5#post207050836Two options for the cpu, the gpu was never mentioned in the march leaks, and again Osiris is saying that to go for 5.5tf they would have to redesign the motherboard and the whole thermal of the box that does not sound at all like a plan B design, but rather taking the design they have to the extreme.
Personally, I guess Im mostly just hoping that Sony wouldnt release a new piece of hardware and effectively send it out to pasture two or three years later. Even if Neo really is only $399, thatd be a bit of a nut punch.Also, i'm glad this thread is finally off of pushing the "everything will be forwards compatible, no exclusive games for more powerful hardware ever" train. I was getting a headache responding to that
Oh, is that a thing? I was actually just wondering about that the other day.Bravia X scaling engine? Supposed to upscale things really well to 4K. Strap one of those in and you could run neo games at sub-4K and upscale them?
Can't think of anything else
There are an awful lot of excellent points in this post.Lots of moving parts could contribute to a decision to go later.
- Giving PSVR space for a launch without distractions. Limited capacity and money to properly market both.
- wanting to make sure PSVR is a separate launch and not tied to neo. Already lots of comments about how neo exists to play VR well and PS4 won't work well with VR. Maybe they want some clear space between launches to avoid such connections being made in the press etc?
- Scorpio offering a larger performance gap than anticipated, making them consider plan B, meaning they may want to delay by a few months to allow prices to come down (as yields go up)
- not wanting to affect PS4 volumes in the holiday season
- not wanting to affect PS4 price in the holiday season. If they launch neo they may expect to do that in conjunction with a PS4 price cut. But if neo waits until February then they can keep PS4 price a little higher during the peak holiday season (with controlled discounting in US to combat Xbox)
At reference clock, RX 480 draws ~110W and does 5.8TFLatest rumors suggest RX 480 having bad power/heat ramp-up on OC. This could put Option Dreamz to rest.
So if it's 4.2 with secret sauce, what exactly is this secret sauce?
whynotboth.gif Sure, pushing GPGPU is great, but having more CPU power is pretty sweet too, especially for any code that also needs to run on PC, where GPGPU isnt always so efficient.
ultimately does it matter? probably not, but speculation is fun and speculation about tech is super-fun.
Whatever Sony release will be based on what is practical and achievable at the date they need it, at the price they want it. Same with MS.
14nm is brand new and therefore changing rapidly. So being 9-12 months later with Scorpio almost gifts MS more power at the same/similar price because of how the technology will unfold.
And then 2 years after that, neo 2 will leapfrog again. Scorpio sounds lovely, but its still a mid-step. 14nm will have plenty of development ahead of it for a few years, and we still have to wait for HBM to hit consoles.
Ref the extra secret thingybob.
What about a vita games card slot on the console?
VITA IS LIFE
Make your mind up
Well I was all on board, but than I realized how unlikely it would be for Sony to release a 5.5 TF machine with a 212 gb/s memory bandwidth. I love the speculation and believe everything OsirisBlack has said, but we haven't heard any new information regarding such a substantial spec change from any other sources outside Osiris. Until we do I'll stick with the conservative model.I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?
Now I'm just confused.
A dude (Osiris?) here claimed they had two design options, one with non-jag.
there is no evidence. original neo leaker said there is an "upgraded" cpu option for sony but it would raise the price over 499$ in 2016 thats why they are thinking about launching in 2017 q 1 in hopes of getting a 499$ pricepoint for it
its all really messy i think he should just come out and say what exactly this "upgraded" cpu is. is it zen ?
And 2 years after that, Scorpio 2 will leapfrog again. So it's totally up to AMD to make "true" jumps or not, in technical terms. Only determined by when Sony and MS release a new iteration of a console, not *who* does it.
Yes, if you want to overclock the RX480, In any case, why would SONY want to OC the 480? they're not even running at stock clock currently... BTW at reference, the current GPU at 5.83TF usually sits at 113 Watts whilst gaming.....Latest rumors suggest RX 480 having bad power/heat ramp-up on OC. This could put Option Dreamz to rest.
I think if Sony/MS move to alternating release dates it'll be through desire to avoid a head to head launch like with PS4/XB1. I think both companies would be ok with that. Like Nikon/Canon never seem to release at the same cadence even though they totally could if they wanted to - they have their ecosystems and by directly avoiding each other they get at least some time in the spotlight and also it mitigates any spec wars because if you're embedded into one system you know you don't have to wait long for the next bus to come along.
I do think that this moment in time though with brand new 14nm and HBM provides opportunities for power increases that may not come around again in a hurry. So timing is absolutely critical at the moment.
Scorpio is likely to get more of a benefit than Neo with a relatively small delay. Neo 2 probably the same as they'll adopt HBM and 14nm will be on larger dies so Zen maybe too. Scorpio 2 likely a smaller increase if they're still stuck on 14nm as it'll be mature by 2020
You guys really should pay attention to this post. He is a dev and respected might i add. He's literally telling us to dial it back a notch.
You guys are now talking about secret sauce? Surprises? Cut it out. We know the specs, now to see what sort of improvements they bring. If anything changes so be it. Be happy with what we get.
I still remember the time when you predented to be an insider. When was it? 2012?
He says that Sony doesn't want to revisit the 599$ price point so the second option is very unlikely atm. They might go for a Q1 2017 release to get the price down to 499$ though.
How can they cut the costs by 100$ by releasing the Neo just a few months later? This doesn't sound very compelling to me.
Every time i come back in the thread...