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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480

THE:MILKMAN

Member
serversurfer said:
The dev kit that went out in January 2013 had four, dual-core Bulldozer CPUs, 8GB RAM, 2.2GB VRAM, and an “A10” GPU. That was the “final” of three pre-release dev kits they sent out, ~ten months before launch, and the hardware was entirely unlike the real PS4. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Dev...ita,20660.html

I don't believe that article was completely correct about that: http://vgleaks.com/orbis-devkits-roadmaptypes/

Toms Hardware describe the "Initial 1" dev kit (don't know what they mean about A10?) which according to VGLeaks went out July 2012.

The SoC based dev kit went out in January 2013 and we even got a picture of it here at GAF in January 2013:

ps4-devkit-controller.jpg


I'd imagine the confusion stems from devs with launch window games getting the SoC based dev kit first while devs developing games for later release still getting the earlier kit.
 
Exactly, like we have seen in many games this gen, like HALO5 and QB......1080p will be looked at like this generation looked at 720p and 900p. We have to move on, by the time PS5 comes along, GPU's will be strong enough to deliver 4k resolution with high end visuals at 30 and 60fps.

Yep .
I can see 4K being a waste on NEO but come PS5 time it should be the normal .
In fact by that time i don't even think they will be selling that much 1080p tvs any more.
 

thelastword

Banned
The whole point of Neo is to have the same development environment as the PS4. Hence compatibility both ways. It'd make no sense to send out a box which is the exact same to develop for, with the only difference of power to then be like "Oh, it now has more power".

I'd understand if they sent out boxes with off the shelf parts strapped together (aka: PC) like they did the PS4 prior its launch, although this is a dev-kit which has a finalised APU in it. It's not changing.
Improving the specs on NEO does not remove compatibility with PS4, at no point in time did developers ever get finalized spec in the first dev kit issue. You seem to be pretty sure about something which has not even been announced yet.....

All you know about NEO at this time is based on speculation and leaks. The fact that it's not announced means that Sony can do anything with it, we don't know their plans. When they announce this thing and give an official release date, we would be able to make more definitive statements, till then, the more time Sony takes, the more likelihood that they're going to beef up the leaked specs as per the AMD timeline and advancements in technology.

Yep .
I can see 4K being a waste on NEO but come PS5 time it should be the normal .
In fact by that time i don't even think they will be selling that much 1080p tvs any more.
Don't get me wrong, I think these new machines can do 4K medium settings at 30fps, but I do believe 1080 60fps maybe the way to go for the majority of titles. In any case, I believe they will want to push 4k media on a whole, so we will see a drove of 4k indie games Like Bound and Tearaway2 at 4K 60fps and some of the more ambitious looking games at 3240 * 2160 upscaled and many other in-between resolutions.
 

JaggedSac

Member
This is all this thread needs. Digital Foundry have the docs and are adamant that Neo is what they have outlined and it isn't changing outside clock speed bumps.

I wonder when they'll do the "up-rendering" article? onQ123 is drooling right about now!


Docs can change though.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Why would they send out documents without mentioning that there could be a better spec'd version? Oisiris was the only guy talking about Plan A and B, Devs on the other Hand already got the dev kit and documents and software has to ship with Neo Support starting at the end of September.

We shouldnt compare the development process of the PS4 to this upgraded Console anyway. Its just different.

They wouldn't have sent out the original ps4 devkit a saying 'btw guys we might put 8GB in it'.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Docs can change though.

Probably. The console specs don't really change though. PS4 was a completely new console versus Neo being a iteration and the specs outlined in the docs for PS4 didn't change for at least 18 months before launch.

If the March Neo dev kit was the first dev kit then development is condensed it seems if launch is this year or even March next year.
 

vpance

Member
Probably. The console specs don't really change though. PS4 was a completely new console versus Neo being a iteration and the specs outlined in the docs for PS4 didn't change for at least 18 months before launch.

If the March Neo dev kit was the first dev kit then development is condensed it seems if launch is this year or even March next year.

Doesn't take a lot of work to adjust some sliders though.

Even if devs don't get the last dev kit until 3 months out I doubt it'd be an issue. Neo mode can have the initial 4.2TF as a target and devs could still ship it out.
 

Tarnpanzer

Member
I have a question: Why would Sony need a up-scaling strategy for 4K games when a TV & simple chip can upscale games?

Because simple solutions like that aren´t the best for image quality.

See Rainbow Six Siege on consoles:

Image quality is typically a pretty cut and dried affair but we see an interesting trick employed here that enables stable performance with a minor compromise to image quality. At its core, the PS4 version operates at 1080p while the Xbox One is 900p - but that's not the whole story. Ubisoft makes use of a "temporal filtering" feature that has a pretty interesting impact on the game.

Essentially, this feature renders the game with half the number of pixels on each axis with an ordered grid MSAA pattern before reconstructing the image to match the final output. This is then coupled with a post-process temporal anti-aliasing solution to minimize artefacts in motion. So, at 1080p, we're technically seeing 960x540 with 2x MSAA. Interestingly, it would appear that the image is processed before being upscaled on Xbox One resulting in blurrier HUD elements and menu text.

This trick has its drawbacks, but when combined with temporal AA, it helps produces a soft yet stable image in motion. If you slowly pan the camera around you can certainly spot edge artefacts but, during normal gameplay, this is much less apparent. The resulting image is actually more temporally stable than many other console titles. It's a fantastic trade-off here that really helps keep performance up without a significant impact on image quality.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-rainbow-six-siege-face-off
 
HAHAH!

Nice to see there are people who can take things well and not bash others for having an opposing opinion.

It's just games. Everything can't be for everyone. I hope things don't go as bad as you fear, but I can see why someone would be hesitant to embrace the idea. I'm far more hopeful regarding this move. I see it as necessary due to competing markets. Homogenization of electronics will only continue to increase with time. Waiting 5-7 years to upgrade a product could lead to its death. That's me though
 

GribbleGrunger

Dreams in Digital
This thread is crazy, if Sony expect 20M PS4 no way they are going to release Neo at $499/$599

That's assuming they don't drop the price of the vanilla PS4. I'd expect their 20m takes into account a small percentage of PS4 owners upgrading but a larger percentage of none PS4 owners picking one up at a lower price. I'd also say Sony believe the PSVR might sell a few PS4s too (but not many).
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I have a question: Why would Sony need a up-scaling strategy for 4K games when a TV & simple chip can upscale games?

I just thought any mention in the docs about upscaling is just Sony advice to devs?

According to Digital Foundry some devs have told them the 5.5GB isn't quite enough for true 4K anyway.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I have a question: Why would Sony need a up-scaling strategy for 4K games when a TV & simple chip can upscale games?
Could be guidelines for AA methods, target rendering resolution, texture resolution, etc to play well with the scaler to minimize artifacting. Could be some type of reconstruction as well. I'm interested to see what it is. 1080p to 4K scaling is a different beast than what we've seen before.
 

onQ123

Member
If it's rendering higher than 1080p (eg 1440p) then the TV might not accept the signal.


You do know that you can set your PS4 to output at 480p & 720p even when games are 1080p right? why wouldn't you be able to set your PS4 Neo to 1080p when games are 1440p & higher?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
You do know that you can set your PS4 to output at 480p & 720p even when games are 1080p right? why wouldn't you be able to set your PS4 Neo to 1080p when games are 1440p & higher?

Because then you'd be rendering at 1440p, downsampling to 1080p, then upscaling by the to to 4K. Adding steps will degrade the image. Having the console output directly at 4K will look better
 

Paz

Member
No offense to smaller devs, but I seriously doubt an indie developer is in the loop for Sony's official plans. Why would they be? Even Guerrilla Games was not fully privy until very late in the process.



Have no idea, but I don't like his tone and when he gets called out for it he feigns innocence. He clearly thinks his opinion holds more value than the rest of us.

I'm not pretending to have any more information than any other third party and I don't. I was just pointing out that people were quoting someone as potentially leaking 'insider' information but the person they were quoting was actually just speculating and not intending their comments to be taken the way they were, it was leading to some circular logic and anticipation of reveals that the poster obviously wasn't teasing.

I also clearly stated I make zero comments on anything Sony haven't publicly announced, there's nothing in my posts other than rationalizations and explanations, stuff like pointing out that a 'neo' metadata tag discovered in Uncharted 4 is not proof that it already has a high end PS4 mode. I mean it's almost certain that Sony would use a high profile title like Uncharted to demo new hardware, but seeing a shadow and claiming there's 6 more weeks of winter isn't a great scientific method.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I'm not pretending to have any more information than any other third party and I don't. I was just pointing out that people were quoting someone as potentially leaking 'insider' information but the person they were quoting was actually just speculating and not intending their comments to be taken the way they were, it was leading to some circular logic and anticipation of reveals that the poster obviously wasn't teasing.

I also clearly stated I make zero comments on anything Sony haven't publicly announced, there's nothing in my posts other than rationalizations and explanations, stuff like pointing out that a 'neo' metadata tag discovered in Uncharted 4 is not proof that it already has a high end PS4 mode. I mean it's almost certain that Sony would use a high profile title like Uncharted to demo new hardware, but seeing a shadow and claiming there's 6 more weeks of winter isn't a great scientific method.

U wot mate!

56b0dbfd1f00000d0121726b.jpeg


In all seriousness were your comments above aimed at what I linked to? If they were can ask what the problem is?
 

onQ123

Member
Because then you'd be rendering at 1440p, downsampling to 1080p, then upscaling by the to to 4K. Adding steps will degrade the image. Having the console output directly at 4K will look better

Why would you downsample to 1080P if your TV is 4K? (unless the scalar in your TV is a lot better then the scalar that will be in PS4 Neo. )
 

Paz

Member
U wot mate!

56b0dbfd1f00000d0121726b.jpeg


In all seriousness were your comments above aimed at what I linked to? If they were can ask what the problem is?

I've got no problems with anything I was just trying to point out that there was some epic miss-communication going on with folks :/ And then that turns in to more miss-communications of my own it seems where now Thuway thinks I'm telling everyone there is no secret sauce (I'm making zero claims about anything).

Basically some times people word things in a more definitive than speculative manner and then someone takes that as them stating some facts and assume they have knowledge and then someone else responds to the responder and so on when the whole thing started with someone just posting their thoughts (however educated they are still just thoughts, I think Sneakers has dev experience so he's likely theorizing based on that experience).

Osiris is still the only person claiming to be leaking factual information, and he/she is mod approved.
 

Metfanant

Member
Why would you downsample to 1080P if your TV is 4K? (unless the scalar in your TV is a lot better then the scalar that will be in PS4 Neo. )

The only reason I could think of...is IF the Neo actually down samples in the way we refer to it in PC gaming, then down sampling to 1080p would give you those inherent benefits, and then upscaling to 4k is as simple as turning ever single 1080p pixel into a block of 4 pixels...so you would be getting a 4k image identical to a nice down samples 1080p image...thats assuming (and a BIG assumption) of course...that 1. The Neo will actually down sample properly, and 2. Upscaling is done in that way...if it's done through some complicated algorithm (most likwly) you're gonna get artifacts either way, and might as well stick with the higher res starting point
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Why would you downsample to 1080P if your TV is 4K? (unless the scalar in your TV is a lot better then the scalar that will be in PS4 Neo. )

Because you said


You do know that you can set your PS4 to output at 480p & 720p even when games are 1080p right? why wouldn't you be able to set your PS4 Neo to 1080p when games are 1440p & higher?

Maybe I got confused. Your original question was 'why have a scaler, why not leave it to the TV?' - my answer being that the TV probably only accepts 4K or 1080p. Neo probably isn't strong enough to do full native 4K, but 1080p seems too limited. If you chose something in between like 1440p it'd look much nicer but then you'd have to scale it up in the console to 4K so the TV can display.

Alternatively do what killzone and rainbow 6 siege do which is create a 'full' 4K image out of a lower res render and extra information from previous frames - temporal anti aliasing.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I've got no problems with anything I was just trying to point out that there was some epic miss-communication going on with folks :/ And then that turns in to more miss-communications of my own it seems where now Thuway thinks I'm telling everyone there is no secret sauce (I'm making zero claims about anything).

Basically some times people word things in a more definitive than speculative manner and then someone takes that as them stating some facts and assume they have knowledge and then someone else responds to the responder and so on when the whole thing started with someone just posting their thoughts (however educated they are still just thoughts, I think Sneakers has dev experience so he's likely theorizing based on that experience).

Osiris is still the only person claiming to be leaking factual information, and he/she is mod approved.

Just so we're on the same page here...all I did yesterday (having being asked to) is link to a comment Sneakers had posted. That post stated quite clearly he'd told another poster about a feature and that it would mean specs wouldn't change and make spec differences to Scorpio to not matter.

While I'm being honest here and with all due respect to the mods and Osiris I have quite a few issues with his info (I have asked questions) and how it comes across to me. Given nobody else seems to question any of the info and the mods are happy then I must be wrong.
 
I'm not pretending to have any more information than any other third party and I don't. I was just pointing out that people were quoting someone as potentially leaking 'insider' information but the person they were quoting was actually just speculating and not intending their comments to be taken the way they were, it was leading to some circular logic and anticipation of reveals that the poster obviously wasn't teasing.

I also clearly stated I make zero comments on anything Sony haven't publicly announced, there's nothing in my posts other than rationalizations and explanations, stuff like pointing out that a 'neo' metadata tag discovered in Uncharted 4 is not proof that it already has a high end PS4 mode. I mean it's almost certain that Sony would use a high profile title like Uncharted to demo new hardware, but seeing a shadow and claiming there's 6 more weeks of winter isn't a great scientific method.

Just to be a clear again that wasn't a slight against you so I want to make sure that you don't take it as such. I didn't even see your original statement. Someone else using what you said as some sort of "proof" was what I did not agree with.
 

onQ123

Member
Because you said




Maybe I got confused. Your original question was 'why have a scaler, why not leave it to the TV?' - my answer being that the TV probably only accepts 4K or 1080p. Neo probably isn't strong enough to do full native 4K, but 1080p seems too limited. If you chose something in between like 1440p it'd look much nicer but then you'd have to scale it up in the console to 4K so the TV can display.

Alternatively do what killzone and rainbow 6 siege do which is create a 'full' 4K image out of a lower res render and extra information from previous frames - temporal anti aliasing.


No I was saying why would they need a upscaling strategy when it's as simple as using the scalar chip or TV scalar.

digitalfoundry said:

I have a question: Why would Sony need a up-scaling strategy for 4K games when a TV & simple chip can upscale games?

then you said
If it's rendering higher than 1080p (eg 1440p) then the TV might not accept the signal.

& I said

You do know that you can set your PS4 to output at 480p & 720p even when games are 1080p right? why wouldn't you be able to set your PS4 Neo to 1080p when games are 1440p & higher?
 
Can we not derail this thread with that uprendering bullshit again? Onq if you want to talk about it go make a thread about it, so that the rest of us can ignore it.
 

anothertech

Member
Osiris is still the only person claiming to be leaking factual information, and he/she is mod approved.
Ya, that was kinda what we were saying. He's the one that mentioned the 2 specs in the first place and 5.5 possible Neo.

Milk was just saying Sneakers mentioned there was something in there that made it so Sony wasn't worried about extra specs.

Then we were kinda speculating on what that might be.

And now we're full circle. lol.
 

Reallink

Member
That's assuming they don't drop the price of the vanilla PS4. I'd expect their 20m takes into account a small percentage of PS4 owners upgrading but a larger percentage of none PS4 owners picking one up at a lower price. I'd also say Sony believe the PSVR might sell a few PS4s too (but not many).

Think you've got that reversed. The (MUCH) larger percentage will be people replacing OG PS4's. Pretty much all of the early adopters that rocket console launches to multi-millions of units sold will buy a Neo. Holdouts buying their first PS4 now don't care about technology and are extremely price sensitive. They will buy a closeout price bomba OG PS4 over a Neo, or one of the deluge of used ones inevitably flooding CL/Ebay/Gamestop post Neo.
 

onQ123

Member
Can we not derail this thread with that uprendering bullshit again? Onq if you want to talk about it go make a thread about it, so that the rest of us can ignore it.

What is this thread being derailed from? what track was it on that my post derailed it from? thread seems to be going exactly as it was before I posted.
 
While I'm being honest here and with all due respect to the mods and Osiris I have quite a few issues with his info (I have asked questions) and how it comes across to me. Given nobody else seems to question any of the info and the mods are happy then I must be wrong.

Osiris was checked out by the mods, doesn't mean everything he says will come true or is accurate, or that the mods are responsible for vetting every piece of hearsay he passes along to us.

Most insiders aren't entirely correct, and even if Osiris is completely legit, his information is coming from other people about a product that is still being worked on, so complete accuracy is a moving target in the best case scenario.

I believe the Neo is coming out, past that it's all fun speculation...
 
Osiris was checked out by the mods, doesn't mean everything he says will come true or is accurate, or that the mods are responsible for vetting every piece of hearsay he passes along to us.

Most insiders aren't entirely correct, and even if Osiris is completely legit, his information is coming from other people about a product that is still being worked on, so complete accuracy is a moving target in the best case scenario.

I believe the Neo is coming out, past that it's all fun speculation...

this.

remember, Sony themselves said they felt good about how few factual leaks there were leading up to E3, and attributed that to their new leak-controlling tactics they've implemented. for all we know the Neo leaks are intentionally misleading or confusing. as said many times before, the specs we've been "leaked" are still rumors, and any "official" documentation can always be updated as devkits get improved to their final form.

it's fun to play around with what info we might have, but it's kind of silly for the discussions to revolve solely around whether or not the specs are final. i'd rather talk about what a 480 is capable of, what new features it could allow over the current PS4 GPU, what bells and whistles devs could throw in with the extra headroom, whether downsampling for PSVR or at least better IQ/AA is available, etc.

i'm not very savvy with GPU and CPU hard technical knowledge, so i'm looking up to you guys to help fill the gaps for us lay-peeps. :)
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Osiris was checked out by the mods, doesn't mean everything he says will come true or is accurate, or that the mods are responsible for vetting every piece of hearsay he passes along to us.

Most insiders aren't entirely correct, and even if Osiris is completely legit, his information is coming from other people about a product that is still being worked on, so complete accuracy is a moving target in the best case scenario.

I believe the Neo is coming out, past that it's all fun speculation...

Sure I understand all of that. Might be that my issue is the way the info has been presented. I guess it is also very easy to get carried away and caught up in the speculation in these situations....
 

DonMigs85

Member
I have a feeling RX 480 and possibly Neo may become ROP-limited in many scenarios. It only still has 32 ROPs like the 7870 and PS4 GPU, but a massive 144 TMUs. Seems kinda unbalanced, even if it clocks up to 1.5GHz
 

Proelite

Member
I have a feeling RX 480 and possibly Neo may become ROP-limited in many scenarios. It only still has 32 ROPs like the 7870 and PS4 GPU, but a massive 144 TMUs. Seems kinda unbalanced, even if it clocks up to 1.5GHz

Someone should tweet this to Raja Koduri just in case he forgot to include more ROPS.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I have a feeling RX 480 and possibly Neo may become ROP-limited in many scenarios. It only still has 32 ROPs like the 7870 and PS4 GPU, but a massive 144 TMUs. Seems kinda unbalanced, even if it clocks up to 1.5GHz

It doesn't matter if they aren't trying to resolutions higher than 1080p with great AA
 

DonMigs85

Member
Someone should tweet this to Raja Koduri just in case he forgot to include more ROPS.

you jest, but in Nvidia's case they felt Kepler had too many TMUs and toned it down for Maxwell and Pascal. I know they don't work the same for both companies, but still.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
You do know that you can set your PS4 to output at 480p & 720p even when games are 1080p right? why wouldn't you be able to set your PS4 Neo to 1080p when games are 1440p & higher?

Because that wasn't the point - you want to send all that 1440p detail to the TV, if the console just downscales it to 1080p and sends it to the TV as 1080p as you suggested as an answer to 4K Tvs only upscaling 1080p, and the TV re-upscales it to 4K, you're only working with the 1080p detail level.

However if the console internally renders at 1440p, then upscales to the TVs native 4K, you get the 1440p detail level with some other smoothing niceties.

This is assuming 4K TV upscalers expect standard TV resolutions to be input, maybe some do, maybe some don't. Doing it on the PS4.5 side would avoid that issue and not lose any detail by downscaling to a 1080p output.


I have a feeling RX 480 and possibly Neo may become ROP-limited in many scenarios. It only still has 32 ROPs like the 7870 and PS4 GPU, but a massive 144 TMUs. Seems kinda unbalanced, even if it clocks up to 1.5GHz

This makes sense through the lens of them targeting better 1080p rather than 4K, and do keep in mind the Neo GPU is also clocked higher than the PS4s, so for 1080p-1440P it may make due.
 

onQ123

Member
I have a feeling RX 480 and possibly Neo may become ROP-limited in many scenarios. It only still has 32 ROPs like the 7870 and PS4 GPU, but a massive 144 TMUs. Seems kinda unbalanced, even if it clocks up to 1.5GHz

Maybe they will bypass the ROPs in Neo mode & use the extra compute units for rendering.

every game is basically a PS4 game so maybe they can do some amazing things with 2tflops of compute.
 

onQ123

Member
Because that wasn't the point - you want to send all that 1440p detail to the TV, if the console just downscales it to 1080p and sends it to the TV as 1080p, and the TV re-upscales it to 4K, you're only working with the 1080p detail level.

However if the console internally renders at 1440p, then upscales to the TVs native 4K, you get the 1440p detail level with some other smoothing niceties.

I was responding to someone saying that higher res like 1440P might not be accepted by the TV & I was saying why wouldn't the PS4 Neo be able to output the 1440P game at 1080P like PS4 does 1080P games at 720P & 480P. I'm not saying they should downscale a 1440P signal to 1080P on a 4K TV.
 
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