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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480
- Thread starter Shtof
- Start date
You guys really should pay attention to this post. He is a dev and respected might i add. He's literally telling us to dial it back a notch.
You guys are now talking about secret sauce? Surprises? Cut it out. We know the specs, now to see what sort of improvements they bring. If anything changes so be it. Be happy with what we get.
I've just been sitting on the sidelines but weren't you saying it was going to be the 5.5TF machine with the better CPU?
Now I'm just confused.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
That better machine and magic spec bump was just his dream. The reality looks different.
Don't be.
It was a dream that a console releasing this year would rival the specs of a console released next year because power is not relevant and Sony can easily change things in their console to fulfill the dreamiest dreams of dreams.
I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a 5.5TF machine. That sort of power does not come cheap, a warmed over jaguar and an adequately clocked GCN 4 based GPU is realistically where Neo will land.
I personally am hoping for there to be minor additions on the CPU side - 64kb L1 caches, slightly larger buffers and improvements to execution unit latency would be nice in addition to the 2.1Ghz speed. Clocking the 2304 core GPU up to 1.05Ghz would be icing on a very delicious speculative cake.
Tah chaps. I did think it was a pipe dream, although, isn't the plan B thing real?
So are the specs most likely going to be the leaked one? Looks like a great machine. Regarding the whole boost games to 60fps argument, surely Sony wouldn't want the PS4 to run at 30fps and Neo to run at 60fps due to competitive advantages anyway? Well for MP.
Regarding CPU upgrade specifics, I wouldn't say your wishing for too much considering it's semi-custom. Any upgrades for these awful CPU's would be great.
So adamant that a 4.2TF machine was dead in the water and that the price had to be closer to 499 than 399 no matter what the specs. Then you had others throwing around "premium" like attaching that word adds a couple $100 more to the price just because. I found the entire situation both amusing and perplexing.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Why would they send out documents without mentioning that there could be a better spec'd version? Oisiris was the only guy talking about Plan A and B, Devs on the other Hand already got the dev kit and documents and software has to ship with Neo Support starting at the end of September.
We shouldnt compare the development process of the PS4 to this upgraded Console anyway. Its just different.
It could be but the greater the power discrepancy, the more the neo will be limited in what it can do to really outshine the PS4 because no exclusives are allowed. So it depends on what Sony is wanting the neo to be. If it is "only" a better PS4 with better graphics, than the power difference doesn't need to be that high.
HughJanuss
Banned
Can someone please explain to me why the hell does Sony need to upgrade the Neo?
Im pretty sure they're releasing the Neo a WHOLE YEAR before the Scorpio, right?
Even if the Neo is "just" a 4.2tf machine, thats 3tf more than what the Xbox One has.
We're going to see a lot more than a resolution difference, for like 12 months..
Mid-gen cycle is a whole new market and Sony have it for themselves for an entire year.
A year head start is all you need people. and a bit of magic.
Im pretty sure they're releasing the Neo a WHOLE YEAR before the Scorpio, right?
Even if the Neo is "just" a 4.2tf machine, thats 3tf more than what the Xbox One has.
We're going to see a lot more than a resolution difference, for like 12 months..
Mid-gen cycle is a whole new market and Sony have it for themselves for an entire year.
A year head start is all you need people. and a bit of magic.
ultimately does it matter? probably not, but speculation is fun and speculation about tech is super-fun.
Whatever Sony release will be based on what is practical and acheivable at the date they need it, at the price they want it. Same with MS.
14nm is brand new and therefore changing rapidly. So being 9-12 months later with Scorpio almost gifts MS more power at the same/similar price because of how the technology will unfold.
And then 2 years after that, neo 2 will leapfrog again. Scorpio sounds lovely, but its still a mid-step. 14nm will have plenty of development ahead of it for a few years, and we still have to wait for HBM to hit consoles.
Whatever Sony release will be based on what is practical and acheivable at the date they need it, at the price they want it. Same with MS.
14nm is brand new and therefore changing rapidly. So being 9-12 months later with Scorpio almost gifts MS more power at the same/similar price because of how the technology will unfold.
And then 2 years after that, neo 2 will leapfrog again. Scorpio sounds lovely, but its still a mid-step. 14nm will have plenty of development ahead of it for a few years, and we still have to wait for HBM to hit consoles.
JumPeRJumPzZ
Banned
Yup. The Digital Foundry comparisons will be brutal for XboxOne against Neo
Typical PR response...
Backfoggen
Banned
Neo approaching Scorpio in terms of power would be interesting because it would force MS to upgrade as well. I think they are hellbent on having the most powerful machine. In the end we get a faster console.
anothertech
Member
So if it's 4.2 with secret sauce, what exactly is this secret sauce?
Just don't see a major CPU upgrade happening. Zen just seems too big and too costly for a mid cycle refresh, in addition such a nice would mean more work for devs who would have to juggle 2 CPU architectures. Potential to break older games. Zen is not even ready in the PC desktop space either and AMD had no other big core.
duhmetree
Member
Why wouldn't Sony want that? That sounds like a selling/marketing point
duhmetree
Member
You can connect PS3's and build a supercomputer.
but really... we're dying for any information
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Deffo a case of going round in circles here. That new console thirst need quenching with new information.
I read a post saying Digital Foundry was going to publish a new Neo article "soonish" after E3. Can't remember where I read, so I might just be mistaken.
geordiemp
Member
Every time i come back in the thread...
Yeah, I am day 1 (new CPU) to replace my 3 Ps4's. 3 Neos if specs are impressive.
Then next day its Jaguar (shit) why bother, keep 2 Ps4 for Destiny maybe, get some hardware that can do 60 FPS gaming in 2017 for multiplats. No Neo / No PSVR ....Sony loose allot of my custom.
I want hardware that can run 3rd party games like Witcher 3 (CPU hungry) well in 2017, I would prefer on console, and will pay for it with or without Sony. Its up to them really, do they actually listen to what console enthusiasts want or back to old we dont listen Sony.
Completely agree.
Well imagine in PvP Destiny 2, if you had Neo people at 60fps and PS4 folk at 30fps. The Neo players would have a cold hard advantage over PS4 players. Think of the difference in input response times.
DerZuhälter
Member
I still think the power differential is negliable if we shackle games on both ecosystems to the "old" base plattforms. Especially when assuming that the specs won't be good enough to hit 4K anyway.
Yeah 4K 30 FPS might be viable if you don't crank up graphics options too high, but considering 4K TV penetration isn't where it needs to be and the console cycle getting faster anyway, I don't think this is as important for devs as some might think.
Going with higher fidelity, framerate will be more interesting than going for 4K I assume.
Yeah 4K 30 FPS might be viable if you don't crank up graphics options too high, but considering 4K TV penetration isn't where it needs to be and the console cycle getting faster anyway, I don't think this is as important for devs as some might think.
Going with higher fidelity, framerate will be more interesting than going for 4K I assume.
geordiemp
Member
Destiny is the only console online shooter that is still 30 FPS, that is not a reason. All online shooters will be 60 FPS in 2017 except maybe destiny.
Gamers want 60 FPS for things like Witcher, Souls. Thats a main reason why gamers go PC mid gen, as third party games dont run as good as they want.
Your reasoning has nothing to do with 60 FPS online gaming, and if Neo is not up to snuff then it has no purpose.
dead monkey uk
Member
Totally agree, 12month+ head start over the Scorpio is a great advantage for Sony, they will be the new console on the market until the NX comes out. I expect Sony to cut the price of the Neo around the time of the Scorpio launch.
Don't you want to run the first party stuff better?, that's the main draw surely as you can have a PC that will beat neo and Scorpio right now if you want.
The old Sony would give you want you want but charge a suicidel price that would tank like a turd. There is a reason ms is not brining out Scorpio anytime soon as it would be too costly right now and the parts arnt ready, 18 months later those specs won't be pie in the sky and won't cost them crazy money.
serversurfer
Member
I would say all of that would also apply to PS4.5 if it got Zen, which would then give it considerably longer legs. None of the price points we're discussing here really indicate disposable hardware, Id hope
whynotboth.gif Sure, pushing GPGPU is great, but having more CPU power is pretty sweet too, especially for any code that also needs to run on PC, where GPGPU isnt always so efficient.
I did, actually. A 2.3x GPU increase after 3+ years didnt strike me as much at all, and a 1.3x CPU increase impressed me even less. I was actually thinking I may as well just tick-tock, if thats all we get mid-gen. I also didnt understand why they wouldnt be using all the new hotness coming out right about now.
PS3 had a 380W internal power supply and a cooling system designed for a 490W system. PS4 has a 250W supply because they wanted to be able to use a two-prong power cable. http://www.4gamer.net/games/990/G999024/20140120059/
The extra RAM would be nice to extend Neos legs, and even while PS4 is still the primary machine, the extra could be used to actually draw a living room for the PSVR cinema mode, etc. As far as opening the door for devs goes, its a closed platform, so that door will remain locked until Sony say otherwise. ;p
Well, if Neo had launched next spring at $499 and 5.5TF, MS couldve gone the other way and try to undercut them with a $399 4TF box of their own. But now theyve already promised 6TF, a year and a half from now. Now if Sony release something similar in the spring, that makes Microsofts delay to the holidays look kinda foolish and pointless, and if MS try to bump Scorpios specs at that point, it makes them look even more like theyre playing catch-up, and drives the price of Scorpio still higher.
The dev kit that went out in January 2013 had four, dual-core Bulldozer CPUs, 8GB RAM, 2.2GB VRAM, and an A10 GPU. That was the final of three pre-release dev kits they sent out, ~ten months before launch, and the hardware was entirely unlike the real PS4. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Development-Kit-Orbis-PlayStation-Bulldozer-Vita,20660.html
Link for this? I searched and all I could find was him saying the better CPU option for Neo was always supposed to be 5.5TF. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=207050836&highlight=5#post207050836
Personally, I guess Im mostly just hoping that Sony wouldnt release a new piece of hardware and effectively send it out to pasture two or three years later. Even if Neo really is only $399, thatd be a bit of a nut punch.
Oh, is that a thing? I was actually just wondering about that the other day.
There are an awful lot of excellent points in this post.
At reference clock, RX 480 draws ~110W and does 5.8TF
anothertech
Member
Nah, easy fix.
30fps multiplayer a will just be 30fps with massive bells and whistles on the Neo. Everyone would be fine with that.
Probably BF1 and Destiny in that boat.
Most shooters will be 60 on both though.
I'm betting they will let devs decide to do with the power though. And if the last few years is any indication, they will go for 30fps and beauty instead of 60fps and dreck. That's what sells after all.
Of course I would be on the side of 'why not both' but that doesn't seem to be priority for most devs tbh.
30fps multiplayer a will just be 30fps with massive bells and whistles on the Neo. Everyone would be fine with that.
Probably BF1 and Destiny in that boat.
Most shooters will be 60 on both though.
I'm betting they will let devs decide to do with the power though. And if the last few years is any indication, they will go for 30fps and beauty instead of 60fps and dreck. That's what sells after all.
Of course I would be on the side of 'why not both' but that doesn't seem to be priority for most devs tbh.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
The undisclosed other features Sneakers hinted at may not even be tied to performance, so it's not the traditional magical secret sauce.
Well of course both is always better, but you can't have both. A larger Zen CPU will either reduce available die size for the GPU meaning less CUs and lower power, or it'll produce a bigger, hotter, more expensive chip that might go beyond what Sony is willing to pay for.
Sony has a history of going for GPU compute and I think PS4 backs that up. PS2 and PS3 were both heavily in that direction with the VUs and SPEs. PS4 with 'too much' GPU in the mix is IMO an extension of that philosophy. You have enough CPU to handle the household chores, and the rest is pushed onto the GPU.
PCs happen to have powerful CPUs by default these days, so there you can do much more of the heavy lifting. And PC GPUs generally don't have good support for async compute. Add in the complexities of multiple configs and there is basically no incentive to use the GPU heavily on a PC title.
This creates a challenge for multiplatform developers of course. Providing a beefy CPU is a benefit for those devs that would like to bring a standard PC engine across.
I think it was but nowadays it's come down to "let's see who buys what from what AMD is able to deliver".
Yes, and that is where it becomes more or less boring.
And 2 years after that, Scorpio 2 will leapfrog again. So it's totally up to AMD to make "true" jumps or not, in technical terms. Only determined by when Sony and MS release a new iteration of a console, not *who* does it.
dead monkey uk
Member
Make your mind up
Well I was all on board, but than I realized how unlikely it would be for Sony to release a 5.5 TF machine with a 212 gb/s memory bandwidth. I love the speculation and believe everything OsirisBlack has said, but we haven't heard any new information regarding such a substantial spec change from any other sources outside Osiris. Until we do I'll stick with the conservative model.
Dictator93
Member
I think if Sony/MS move to alternating release dates it'll be through desire to avoid a head to head launch like with PS4/XB1. I think both companies would be ok with that. Like Nikon/Canon never seem to release at the same cadence even though they totally could if they wanted to - they have their ecosystems and by directly avoiding each other they get at least some time in the spotlight and also it mitigates any spec wars because if you're embedded into one system you know you don't have to wait long for the next bus to come along.
I do think that this moment in time though with brand new 14nm and HBM provides opportunities for power increases that may not come around again in a hurry. So timing is absolutely critical at the moment.
Scorpio is likely to get more of a benefit than Neo with a relatively small delay. Neo 2 probably the same as they'll adopt HBM and 14nm will be on larger dies so Zen maybe too. Scorpio 2 likely a smaller increase if they're still stuck on 14nm as it'll be mature by 2020
thelastword
Banned
This thread really has gone see-saw. The dev kits in current circulation does not indicate final hardware, it never has before. I don't know why people want to temper expectations on NEO hardware when the thing has not even been announced yet....People can speculate, as nothing is set in stone.
It must also be noted that if the PS4 decides to go with Zen, it may not come out this year, so zen + a 5.5-5.83 TF GPU in March may be a better bet.
It must also be noted that if the PS4 decides to go with Zen, it may not come out this year, so zen + a 5.5-5.83 TF GPU in March may be a better bet.
Yes, if you want to overclock the RX480, In any case, why would SONY want to OC the 480? they're not even running at stock clock currently... BTW at reference, the current GPU at 5.83TF usually sits at 113 Watts whilst gaming.....
I just meant that nobody could ever be blown away by tech specs - like never again because consoles will never contain any "unknown" pieces of hardware again (or at least I don't think so but then again, FPGAs would be a good secret sauce of power
).But yes, timing will be somewhat crucial in the future as to when to release a new console, of course. But this also applies to PC gaming where it is crucial when you as a customer can decide when to jump in. Which makes me think that a new Xbox every 2 years would not be the worst thing to do, especially as they are now going their own route with console hardware and leave the classic design behind them.
I think there is alot of misinterpretation happening here. Osiris never said Sony is going for the 5.5TF route. He said the following:
The first option with the power of the leaked specs (jaguar 2,1GHz) for 399$ is no longer considered by Sony.
Instead sony is undecided between two options:
1.Neo with a better CPU for 499$ (no word on more than 4.14 GPU power yet)
2.Neo with 5.5TF (no word on better CPU yet, but I would assume so) for 599$ or more
He says that Sony doesn't want to revisit the 599$ price point so the second option is very unlikely atm. They might go for a Q1 2017 release to get the price down to 499$ though.
I still believe and hope Neo for 499$ this year is real. Pricing it only 100$ above the standard ps4 at 399$ doesn't justify it to call it a "premium" or "high-end" ps4. They should upgrade the cpu and clock the GPU a little higher to 4.5 - 5TF.
The first option with the power of the leaked specs (jaguar 2,1GHz) for 399$ is no longer considered by Sony.
Instead sony is undecided between two options:
1.Neo with a better CPU for 499$ (no word on more than 4.14 GPU power yet)
2.Neo with 5.5TF (no word on better CPU yet, but I would assume so) for 599$ or more
He says that Sony doesn't want to revisit the 599$ price point so the second option is very unlikely atm. They might go for a Q1 2017 release to get the price down to 499$ though.
I still believe and hope Neo for 499$ this year is real. Pricing it only 100$ above the standard ps4 at 399$ doesn't justify it to call it a "premium" or "high-end" ps4. They should upgrade the cpu and clock the GPU a little higher to 4.5 - 5TF.
HughJanuss
Banned
I still remember the time when you predented to be an insider. When was it? 2012?
So many people believed you and you just trolled everyone. Good times lol.
I was just a lurker back then and I remember. Goddamn I have good memory.
Tarnpanzer
Member
How can they cut the costs by 100$ by releasing the Neo just a few months later? This doesn't sound very compelling to me.
because its totally wrong
from 4.2tf jaguar 399$ to 5.5tf with zen at 499$ a mere months away is crazy to even think about. id buy that in a heartbeat in march but its never ever gonna happen
they wanna make money on this and zen isnt even out yet. plus what gpu are they gonna throw in it ? i highly doubt its gonna have a full clock r480 ...
Every time i come back in the thread...
This needs to be the first post of every page in this thread, lol.
So much guesswork with little actual information.
Hopefully something is announced/leaked soon or we may all go mad (...or have we already?)