Support NeoGAF

[Galang]

Quite the upgrade from 3DS at least... I'm excited just for that reason.

 

[dr_rus]

So power wise its an overclocked WiiU or:

27% of PS4 power.
38% Xbone power.
11% NEO power.
8% Scorpio power.

Pretty inadequate for 2017 machine tbh.

*if NX had X1 chip.

I very much doubt that NX will use the Tegra X1 SoC since that will be two years old by the moment of NX launch. It'll probably be Tegra Parker which will be using Pascal GPU and Denver2 CPU (or ARM's core, both are possible).

If previous Tegra updates is an indication here that would mean that Parker should be ~2 times faster than TX1 which would bring it to ~50% of PS4 performance flops wise and probably ~2/3rds of PS4 performance in practice considering that NV h/w is usually much better at handling graphics per flop.

That's a lot for a handheld but it may not be enough for it to be a valid target for multiplatform releases even though in this case it should come pretty close to XBO h/w capabilities. The biggest issue can be the CPU however as even a quad core ARM may not be fast enough to run x86 octa core code for AMD's Jaguar.

I think it's possible that they'll reach XBO performance level and thus may become a valid platform for multiplatform releases. But they'll have to pull some s/w+h/w magic to do this, using an active cooled high performance mode for stationary operation for example and going to a lower performance passive one for handheld mode, with lower resolution.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

It's difficult to read at least the last page in a discussion?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/nintendo-nx-the-pros-and-cons-of-a-transforming-portable/0170297

That easily discards the extra chip on the dock. I see that as sone kind of mid—gen upgrade rather than a rather useless expensive add—on.

 

[Kimawolf]

Yeah, if this rumour is true Nintendo are going to release what it not only by a massive margin their most technically ambitious handheld, but might actually be the most technically ambitious handheld ever released by any company. It's entirely possible that this could run genuinely decent ports of current generation games, on a handheld.

But, you know, "lol, Nintendo".

Yeah. People are leaving that out. A handheld will possibly be able to handle your current gen games. But lol Nintendo indeed.

 

[KingSnake]

That easily discards the extra chip on the dock. I see that as sone kind of mid—gen upgrade rather than a rather useless expensive add—on.

Yeah, I also think a SCD dock would make more sense as some kind of revision.

 

[Comet]

Pretty much confirms that there will be no backwards compatibility. No surprise there.


Also,

"you can think of the NX as a turbo charged last gen console"

... So barely a leap over the Wii-U then? What's with Nintendo's obsession with releasing turbo chared last gen hardware?

If it's meant to be played on the go this is super super impressive.

 

[gtj1092]

Yeah, if this rumour is true Nintendo are going to release what it not only by a massive margin their most technically ambitious handheld, but might actually be the most technically ambitious handheld ever released by any company. It's entirely possible that this could run genuinely decent ports of current generation games, on a handheld.

But, you know, "lol, Nintendo".

If it's going to claim to be a hybrid it will be compared to home consoles. If this is their solution for console gamers expect console expectations.

And as far as price the ps4 was also cheaper than people expected but it was still $399. NX will probably be $299 dock included. That's mass market price.

 

[Thraktor]

Why use the Shield TV as an indicator of price? Surely it'd make more sense to look at the Shield Tablet. While it ships with the older Tegra K1 it, like the NX, is a portable device with a screen and a form factor which better suits an SoC like the X1 (the Pixel C has a 9" screen). It also has a 1920 x 1200 resolution display.

Nintendo's chassis design would probably be more complex than a tablet (the Eurogamer drawing based on sources showed a kickstand), but the Shield Tablet has that NVidia SoC and a high resolution display, it's missing attachable controller pairs though.

Also remember the SemiAccurate report about Tegra being in the NX handheld. They claimed that Nintendo got a great price for the Tegra X1 chip and support, and there was a great post on GAF detailing how this is likely to be correct. Devices with X1 have sold poorly to date, and Nvidia would need to fulfil their wafer commitment to TSMC or pay a hefty fine. It'd be more beneficial to produce X1s for Nintendo instead.

If anything pushes the price up it'll be the strengthening Yen above all else. Hope that doesn't lead Nintendo to cheapen out on the overall design like I suspect they did with some of the hardware early this gen.

I wouldn't worry too much about the strengthening of the Yen regarding the cost of the console. Nintendo have talked before about migrating their purchasing to foreign currencies (most likely dollars) to reduce currency risk, given the majority of sales are outside Japan. Like any other company their size, they're also going to be trading forex futures to reduce risk for projects like this.

If it's going to claim to be a hybrid it will be compared to home consoles. If this is their solution for console gamers expect console expectations.

When have Nintendo claimed it's a hybrid? Even Eurogamer haven't claimed that, and their description is very much of a handheld that happens to have HDMI output functionality when docked. Furthermore, neither they nor Nintendo said anything about this being their only upcoming piece of hardware, and there's no reason to believe that Nintendo don't also have a dedicated home console planned.

 

[KingSnake]

If it's going to claim to be a hybrid it will be compared to home consoles. If this is their solution for console gamers expect console expectations.

Where is that claim coming from? Because as of now I only see a report in Eurogamer, not an official marketing from Nintendo.

 

[KingBroly]

250 is a nonstarter for a handheld. Id say even 200 is too much

 

[BadAss2961]

"Turbo powered last gen console."

So basically another Nintendo system that'll mostly only be worth it for the first party games.

 

[Anoregon]

250 is a nonstarter for a handheld. Id say even 200 is too much

I imagine they are going to bill it as a "console you can take with you" and not strictly a handheld.

"Turbo powered last gen console."

So basically another Nintendo system that'll mostly only be worth it for the first party games.

I don't know why anyone would be expecting anything different, given Nintendo's history.

 

[domlolz]

look at what nintendo can do with the wii u.

even if it isnt as powerful as the ps4 and xbox, games will still look fantastic

we are going to get a proper handheld pokemon on a device with console level specs. fuckin epic win.

 

[robertsan21]

Nintendo better be using Tegra x2. I dont want a PS3 Neo.

Hopefully they play their cards right with the NX and beef it up from Tegra 1

 

[Machina]

I'm just gonna say it: I'm scared shitless for Nintendo

 

[EVH]

Damn, but maybe they got a deal with NVIDIA? ha, desperate hoping

Is there a possibility that the base could increase power? Kind of like the Surface Book?

Desperate hoping should be the name for every Nintendo new machine thread in every internet board i've seen, so you are not alone. We already are talking about X2, 4G, 1080p, 200€ price and all the list of patents that Nintendo filed in the last months. All of this is repeated with every new machine and every time it ends in dissaster.

Hell, even in EuroGamer they say all this information is just rumors.

 

[NowhereFaded]

So power wise its an overclocked WiiU or:

27% of PS4 power.
38% Xbone power.
11% NEO power.
8% Scorpio power.

Pretty inadequate for 2017 machine tbh.

*if NX had X1 chip.

For my feeble mind, for comparison, what percentage of power would a gameboy be to a SNES?? Thanks

 

[Rodin]

I very much doubt that NX will use the Tegra X1 SoC since that will be two years old by the moment of NX launch. It'll probably be Tegra Parker which will be using Pascal GPU and Denver2 CPU (or ARM's core, both are possible).

If previous Tegra updates is an indication here that would mean that Parker should be ~2 times faster than TX1 which would bring it to ~50% of PS4 performance flops wise and probably ~2/3rds of PS4 performance in practice considering that NV h/w is usually much better at handling graphics per flop.

That's a lot for a handheld but it may not be enough for it to be a valid target for multiplatform releases even though in this case it should come pretty close to XBO h/w capabilities. The biggest issue can be the CPU however as even a quad core ARM may not be fast enough to run x86 octa core code for AMD's Jaguar.

I think it's possible that they'll reach XBO performance level and thus may become a valid platform for multiplatform releases. But they'll have to pull some s/w+h/w magic to do this, using an active cooled high performance mode for stationary operation for example and going to a lower performance passive one for handheld mode, with lower resolution.

We still have osirisblack saying that the console would have no problem handling ports from current gen hardware, and lcgeek saying that the CPU is noticeably more powerful than what PS4/X1 have (although still slow compared to stuff like a FX8350). Considering they're both verified by mods and with a good track record, i think we're missing something here.

Maybe Leadbetter's guess about Tegra X2 being the reason behind the delay to 2017 and the X1 running with noisy active cooling because it's a (overclocked) placeholder was spot on. I can't think of anything else at the moment.

 

[gtj1092]

Where is that claim coming from? Because as of now I only see a report in Eurogamer, not an official marketing from Nintendo.

Oh so this thread and all speculation there in shouldn't exist then. You can't pick and choose which parts of the rumor work best for you. Hybrid is in every other post in the larger thread are we pretending that isn't the perception of the NX?

 

[Helznicht]

Will wait for NX-XL version next year.

 

[Scanna]

My concerns are not graphical or power wise... my fear is that this thing will be a bulky, plasticky thing with a dismal screen or something, to keep the cost down.

 

[KingSnake]

Oh so this thread and all speculation there in shouldn't exist then. You can't pick and choose which parts of the rumor work best for you. Hybrid is in every other post in the larger thread are we pretending that isn't the perception of the NX?

It's a handheld with a dock. That's the rumour. A beast of a handheld. That can be connected to TV and probably works with normal clock while powered. So it's a hybrid by definition if you want. So compare it with other hybrid consoles then.

Or continue to be obtuse to prove whatever you want to prove.

 

[Jackano]

250 is a nonstarter for a handheld. Id say even 200 is too much

3DS prooved 250 is a non-starter indeed. I think it would have worked great starting at 200.

That NX hybrid is not quiet a handheld even if it's more a handheld than anything, based on yesterday rumors.
I hope for 200 but don't hold my breath for it. I think even Nintendo isn't 100% sure about their pricing yet. If the system was going to launch this holidays like previously planned, when would they have decided on the price? Only in the recent last few weeks I imagine.

Even if they can make it for 200, I think it's likely there will be a deluxe SKU at 250, the only true choice in the end.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I think the gamble is will people actually use the console as a hybrid, as Nintendo has intended?

I could see a lot of kids, families, etc. not taking the time to dock the system.

I'm honestly concerned, sensibly or not, about wear and tear from detaching and combining controllers all the time. Unless the screen is tiny or the handheld is too heavy I don't know why I'd spend more money to play it off TV.

 

[dr_rus]

We still have osirisblack saying that the console would have no problem handling ports from current gen hardware, and lcgeek saying that the CPU is noticeably more powerful than what PS4/X1 have (although still slow compared to stuff like a FX8350). Considering they're both verified by mods and with a good track record, i think we're missing something here.

Well, as I've said it's perfectly possible that NX with Tegra Parker will reach at least XBO power levels flops wise. If that won't be just Parker but a customized SoC version with more ARM cores (8 cores of A57 for example; although 4 Denver2 are also possible) then its CPU capability may well be enough to handle CPU code from XBO/PS4 and even Neo. Then we don't know much yet about how they'll differentiate between stationary / TV output and handheld / mobile modes of operation.

 

[antonz]

We still have osirisblack saying that the console would have no problem handling ports from current gen hardware, and lcgeek saying that the CPU is noticeably more powerful than what PS4/X1 have (although still slow compared to stuff like a FX8350). Considering they're both verified by mods and with a good track record, i think we're missing something here.

Maybe Leadbetter's guess about Tegra X2 being the reason behind the delay to 2017 and the X1 running with noisy active cooling because it's a (overclocked) placeholder was spot on. I can't think of anything else at the moment.

lcgeek has made it pretty clear Parker is not happening. At best we will see a Nintendo tweaked X1.

 

[LeleSocho]

I very much doubt that NX will use the Tegra X1 SoC since that will be two years old by the moment of NX launch.

r700 GPU was 4 years old when it released on WiiU.

---------

This is Nintendo we are talking about, not only they don't care about if their stuff is underpowered but also if it is old tech (which is much much worse).

 

[rokkerkory]

I bet NX will be iterative as well.

This thing is not that powerful to begin with so they need to refresh it often

 

[Pejo]

More than anything else, now that I know the approximate specs, I'm so curious as to what it will look like. Will they try to make it look sleek to make it appeal to tech heads, or will it look like a toy to capture the casuals and children? How big will it be? Truly portable or more of "let's take it on a road trip or a camping trip". With the supposed detachable controllers, it's gotta have at least some size to it, or the controllers would be smaller than a GBA Micro.

 

[shark sandwich]

I'm honestly concerned, sensibly or not, about wear and tear from detaching and combining controllers all the time. Unless the screen is tiny or the handheld is too heavy I don't know why I'd spend more money to play it off TV.

Not sure how feasible this is, but it would be pretty awesome to have Bluetooth w/NFC for pairing, and have the controllers attach magnetically sort of like the iPad Smart Cover. Then there would be no electrical connectors or latching mechanisms to break.

 

[Carlius]

nintendo haters...tsk tsk tsk...the salt

 

[Pancakes R Us]

If it's going to claim to be a hybrid it will be compared to home consoles. If this is their solution for console gamers expect console expectations.

And as far as price the ps4 was also cheaper than people expected but it was still $399. NX will probably be $299 dock included. That's mass market price.

$300 is not a mass market price for a Nintendo product, IMO. 3DS sold poorly at $250, as did Wii U at $300-350. If NX doesn't have an amazing hook, $300 is too high.

 

[KageMaru]

Wii U had a decent third party lineup its first year, and nobody bought those games. Nintendo funded some great third party exclusives (Bayonetta 2 and W101) and nobody bought them. Anybody who cares about the big third party franchises already owns a PS4 or a X1 and is invested in those ecosystems.

Nintendo basically had 2 choices:
1. Try for parity with PS4 and X1 so they can get 3rd party multiplats, which will probably sell horribly.

2. Once again remain far behind in HW power, but unify their handheld w/console.

The second choice IMO makes FAR more sense than the first. Their handheld systems have always had stellar lineups. Being able to bring handheld games to console, and completely unify their development for one platform, will bring massively higher gains than getting multiplats.

Face it, it's only a tiny vocal minority saying "gee, I wish I had a third console that can play Call of Duty!"

Yeah you make some good points. To be fair, Nintendo has done little to build a user base for games like Bayonetta, which is another one of the many areas they screwed up. Plus pointing to software selling poorly on a system that is also selling poorly doesn't show the whole picture IMO.

Whatever they do, I wish they would learn from past mistakes instead of staying ignorant to the trends of the world.

 

[Cow Mengde]

From what we know so far? It's straight up a portable console with a dock that has HDMI out to play on a TV.

It's possible that the dock contains more hardware, but the development units definitely do not, and the only thing that hints that there COULD be more hardware in it, is a design patent for SCD (Supplementary Computational Devices).

Where does it say the development units don't have extra hardware? Unless I missed a rumor, all they did was mention a dock, and didn't specify anything else.

I'm not saying it proves anything, just that there's no information pointing either way from the rumors. Again, unless I missed something.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Do we know if the X1 has modern engine support, and not just Unreal 4 Mobile if that difference even matters?

 

[mavericktopgun]

I think it will be an X2 Chip. Or at least X1 for the Handheld and X2 for the base Station.

 

[McHuj]

I think it will be an X2 Chip. Or at least X1 for the Handheld and X2 for the base Station.

X1 is way too power hungry for a handheld, imo. It needs a large tablet-like form factor at least.

 

[Skittzo0413]

People should keep in mind that Nvidia flops > AMD flops when it comes to real world performance, so even an off the shelf X1 should perform much MUCH better than the Wii U at 100% clock (AKA while docked), potentially pretty close to XBONE performance. No idea about the hypothetical X2.


Overall I think this will be a fairly attractive product if the marketing is on point. Play every Nintendo game on the go or at home with this one product that will cost you $200-$250.

People worried about third parties need to accept that western third parties would never be heavily support it regardless of power unless it becomes a runaway success, and Japanese third parties are all about scalable engines like UE4 which will run beautifully on this machine.

And on the other hand, it might actually be an attractive prospect for western third parties to make versions of CoD and GTA for instance that can be played on a handheld, yet have similar visuals to console versions (due to the 540-720p screen). I'd love to play TESVI on a handheld! Again, all of this depends on success during and after launch, and not so much power.

People need to realize this is a modern Nintendo handheld with a very modern chipset (potentially brand new if X2/Parker) which is something we haven't seen in a while and is pretty exciting. Now all we need are good ergonomics...

 

[dr_rus]

r700 GPU was 4 years old when it released on WiiU.

---------

This is Nintendo we are talking about, not only they don't care about if their stuff is underpowered but also if it is old tech (which is much much worse).

WiiU doesn't use R700 GPU (nor is there such a GPU exist), it's using a GPU built on AMD's VLIW5 architecture which certainly was old by the time WiiU launched but it should be noted that AMD's newer GCN architecture wasn't ready to be used in WiiU within its launch frame so it's not like Nintendo had a lot of options with WiiU's h/w (going with NV's Fermi would make even less sense overall).

Sticking to TX1 on the other hand makes little sense as Parker is essentially the same as TX1 but better - built on a better process (16FF vs 20 planar which means more performance and/or better power consumption), using upgraded Pascal GPU (almost the same as TX1's Maxwell but better in general) and upgraded Denver2 CPU (if it's using that and not ARM's A57). So I don't see any reason why NX would stick with TX1 specifically instead of going with Parker.

 

[Rodin]

Well, as I've said it's perfectly possible that NX with Tegra Parker will reach at least XBO power levels flops wise. If that won't be just Parker but a customized SoC version with more ARM cores (8 cores of A57 for example; although 4 Denver2 are also possible) then its CPU capability may well be enough to handle CPU code from XBO/PS4 and even Neo. Then we don't know much yet about how they'll differentiate between stationary / TV output and handheld / mobile modes of operation.

Yeah, pretty much.

lcgeek has made it pretty clear Parker is not happening. At best we will see a Nintendo tweaked X1.

Where? He made a good point about Nintendo not being willing to pay for Parker in a sub 300$ device, but we don't know what deal Nvidia offered them or how much it will cost considering it wasn't even shown to the public yet. Also this post

I do remember this hell just a few posts ago I blurted out I want nintendo show off whatever this SOC chip is. Just things are happening it seems and I'm quite joyus, sadly overwatch is calling me.

I'm not owning up to what is considering we don't have final units. Just pumped team green is lending some assistance and nintendo feels it could be worthwhile. We don't know where the bullseye is but having a place to hit is a lot better than what may was.

tells me he doesn't know what SoC they're using or they're going to use in the final product. He made a good guess, but that's it. I still don't understand how a custom X1 would have a "noticeably better CPU" than an 8 core Jaguar though.


Anyway, Parker or X1, the real question is if the dock will have a cooling system that allows the console to use the chips at full speed. Maybe something like this inside of it

but obviously more sofisticated and "elegant". Otherwise it's pointless.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

I can't wait to play SMT V on this thing. If it can handle current generation console ports and if Nvidia is desperate to secure a console contract, I'd bet $$$ on X2.

Nah, Capcom's secret is that they just phone in monster hunter games intentionally so they dont have to spend money on investment in higher end rendering to make more profits.

I expect it to still look like the Wii U Monster Hunter 3 port, but full 1080p hopefully and locked 30

They could just ask tencent for the Minster hunter online Assets.

 

[LordRaptor]

People have completely given up on any pretense that the only power they care about is GPUs, huh?

 

[tebunker]

Yeah, pretty much.


Where? He made a good point about Nintendo not being willing to pay for Parker in a sub 300$ device, but we don't know what deal Nvidia offered them or how much it will cost considering it wasn't even shown to the public yet. Also this post


tells me he doesn't know what SoC they're using or they're going to use in the final product. He made a good guess, but that's it. I still don't understand how a custom X1 would have a "noticeably better CPU" than an 8 core Jaguar though.


Anyway, Parker or X1, the real question is if the dock will have a cooling system that allows the console to use the chips at full speed. Maybe something like this inside of it

but obviously more sofisticated and "elegant". Otherwise it's pointless.

He's always been cautious on nailing something doen, and his others posts make it seem like Nvidia and Nintendo are nailing down the final spec now, probably based on yield and costs.

So itnis very possible they are working together to get as much packed in to a $200 machine as they can.

I hate all this speculation, hearing that an oc'd X1 is in the eary dev kits realy makes me believe they are doin everything possible to hit a target and thats why we haven't had any announcements.

i know this next part is a little ot
As for just further pondering I always thought it made a lot of sense for an Nvidia or and Amazon or any of those Android box makers to team up with a major console publisher to make a home system. It is really a smart move by Nvidia as Shield never truly took off, and they can probably work out other deals with Nintendo to work together.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

WiiU doesn't use R700 GPU (nor is there such a GPU exist), it's using a GPU built on AMD's VLIW5 architecture which certainly was old by the time WiiU launched but it should be noted that AMD's newer GCN architecture wasn't ready to be used in WiiU within its launch frame so it's not like Nintendo had a lot of options with WiiU's h/w (going with NV's Fermi would make even less sense overall).

Sticking to TX1 on the other hand makes little sense as Parker is essentially the same as TX1 but better - built on a better process (16FF vs 20 planar which means more performance and/or better power consumption), using upgraded Pascal GPU (almost the same as TX1's Maxwell but better in general) and upgraded Denver2 CPU (if it's using that and not ARM's A57). So I don't see any reason why NX would stick with TX1 specifically instead of going with Parker.

Didn't know this, good looking.

 

[rschauby]

Like I said before This is unprecedented power in a mobile SOC in comparison to its peers. This will outclass everything mobile when it releases.

Your statement is not true in 2016 when the NX releases. Not to mention it will be extremely underpowered compared to its peers well before it is 2 years old.

 

[CaviarMeths]

For people who are saying that Nintendo is backing out of home consoles for good, maybe they're not wrong, but I keep thinking about Iwata's comment that there could be multiple form factors in a family that are "like brothers" and compared to the concept to Apple and iOS.

Maybe this is just the first in a line of new products all within the NX family.

 

[Neoleo2143]

For people who are saying that Nintendo is backing out of home consoles for good, maybe they're not wrong, but I keep thinking about Iwata's comment that there could be multiple form factors in a family that are "like brothers" and compared to the concept to Apple and iOS.

Maybe this is just the first in a line of new products all within the NX family.

Nintnedo backing out of consoles doesn't sound terrible because NX is definitely capable of supporting ambitious projects. It's not like they left the wii u and are only working on 3DS tier hardware.

 

[swit]

Memory subsystem peculiarities non-withstanding, and assuming an off-the-shelf TX1 with 4x A57s@2GHz, TX1 would beat it handily in anything multi-threaded, about on-par in single-threaded.

huh, if this is the case than NX could probably fully emulate PS2 o,O I'm impressed with Nintendo offerings this generation. I was considering buying GPD Win for this purpose alone, but now I think I will just wait for NX to get hacked and enjoy those sweet homebrews on it. Too bad that Tegra is not x86 CPU, though.

 

[ZOONAMI]

We still have osirisblack saying that the console would have no problem handling ports from current gen hardware, and lcgeek saying that the CPU is noticeably more powerful than what PS4/X1 have (although still slow compared to stuff like a FX8350). Considering they're both verified by mods and with a good track record, i think we're missing something here.

Maybe Leadbetter's guess about Tegra X2 being the reason behind the delay to 2017 and the X1 running with noisy active cooling because it's a (overclocked) placeholder was spot on. I can't think of anything else at the moment.

I think it's very possible people may have been hearing things about a traditional home console, and nintendo has shelved those plans in favor of their portable, and are waiting until ps5 and scorpio to release a home console again. It's actually not a bad plan. Releasing something midcycle during the reign of the ps4 doesnt make a ton of sense.

 

[Skittzo0413]

For people who are saying that Nintendo is backing out of home consoles for good, maybe they're not wrong, but I keep thinking about Iwata's comment that there could be multiple form factors in a family that are "like brothers" and compared to the concept to Apple and iOS.

Maybe this is just the first in a line of new products all within the NX family.

I've been wondering if the major NX component is this "dock" that the Eurogamer article touches on but doesn't really talk about, and the handheld is one of the several products which can connect or interact with the "dock." This information is seemingly coming from a developer with a devkit, so it's certainly possible that they only have a devkit for 1 SKU prepared, and this developer (or whoever the leakers within are) assumes that this devkit is for the 1 and only SKU.

Then again this could truly be the one NX machine. Really looking forward to the reveal.