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The influx of moderates telling us to tolerate sexism, xenophobia, and racism all day

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Ryzaki009

Member
How is it easier for you to blame millions of Americans than a campaign that nearly everyone at this point understands made massive mistakes in their strategy?

Because the millions of americans unlike her campaign will be suffering for it.

I'm not gonna say Hillary wasn't at fault cause she was in aspects but the people shouldn't have let this happen even if they had to hold their noses. (Dem turnout was down 6 million. That's ridiculous. It's not like it was any kind of secret the kind of person Trump was, constantly selling dreams to people to turn around and swindle them and leave them bankrupt while he made out like a bandit. People keep talking about character and how presentation matters but for some reason that wasn't enough of an alarm bell to vote?) Now they're gonna have their faces slammed in shit. Hillary can go back to her nice mansion while we'll be losing programs that keep us alive.

Hillary screwed up but that doesn't nullify people staying at home and letting Trump get elected President. Especially not people who relied on social programs that the Reps are more than likely gonna reduce if not outright eliminate.
 

faisal233

Member
Because the millions of americans unlike her campaign will be suffering for it.

I'm not gonna say Hillary wasn't at fault cause she was in aspects but the people shouldn't have let this happen even if they had to hold their noses. (Dem turnout was down 6 million. That's ridiculous. It's not like it was any kind of secret the kind of person Trump was, constantly selling dreams to people to turn around and swindle them and leave them bankrupt while he made out like a bandit. People keep talking about character and how presentation matters but for some reason that wasn't enough of an alarm bell to vote?) Now they're gonna have their faces slammed in shit. Hillary can go back to her nice mansion while we'll be losing programs that keep us alive.

Hillary screwed up but that doesn't nullify people staying at home and letting Trump get elected President. Especially not people who relied on social programs that the Reps are more than likely gonna reduce if not outright eliminate.

And Hillary's complacency and constant projection of 99% chance of winning had nothing to do with it?

The base didn't turnout because the message didn't resonate with them AND they expected an easy win. Hillary's ads were all about trump, and never advertised what she brought to the table for them. They then stayed home because it was supposed to be an easy win.
 

Ryzaki009

Member
And Hillary's complacency and constant projection of 99% chance of winning had nothing to do with it?

The base didn't turnout because the message didn't resonate with them AND they expected an easy win. Hillary's ads were all about trump, and never advertised what she brought to the table for them. They then stayed home because it was supposed to be an easy win.

I just said she had a part of it. Like. It's in the post you quoted.

And now them refusing to vote gave us Trump. And I bet we suffer a lot more than Hillary from it. So they're not partly responsible too?

Like...this isn't a one thing gets all the blame scenario. Hillary fucked up yes but so did the people that decided "nah I won't vote." and are now crying that they're gonna lose things they need to live.
 
I respectfully disagree with your ethics book, and agree with the prior poster. Why should we be held responsible for a priori information?

Again, your vote collectively leads to to leaders that govern with your civic consent. When they err, you also have the civic duty to work to change their course or remove them from power.

What is your argument for a lack of responsibility, other than to assuage guilt?
 
Again, your vote collectively leads to to leaders that govern with your civic consent. When they err, you also have the civic duty to work to change their course or remove them from power.

What is your argument for a lack of responsibility, other than to assuage guilt?

We could even take it a step further and ask why vote at all if the outcome of that vote is totally divorced from any personal responsibility whatsoever, good or bad? The point of voting, as you said, is to enact a political actor you feel best aligns with your personal values, ergo you accept that you want them to do something for you. Voting loses all meaning if the end result has no personal consequence whatsoever, be it good or bad

Voting makes you an integral part of the process, but you're not suddenly divorced from it if the person you voted for stands for something you disagree with or does something terrible.
 

bud23

Member
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost
 
Again, your vote collectively leads to to leaders that govern with your civic consent. When they err, you also have the civic duty to work to change their course or remove them from power.

What is your argument for a lack of responsibility, other than to assuage guilt?

I did not say I support the contrary. I am making you prove your claim. I am the neutral arbiter. I want you to explain, in complete detail, why an individual is culpable for actions based on information they did not have access to prior to making that decision. Explain it to me. This cyclical, cartesian fallacy stuff won't work on me. Explain the intricacies of *WHY* an individual should be held culpable for information learned after the fact. The answer of "because it happened" won't serve to convince anyone other than those who already agree with you.
 

Dalek

Member
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

If you knowingly vote for a racist, sexist piece of shit...you are a racist, sexist piece of shit. The end.

You don't get to do racist shit, then pull out a "I'm not really racist!" get out of jail free card.
 
How is it easier for you to blame millions of Americans than a campaign that nearly everyone at this point understands made massive mistakes in their strategy?

You know, this blame game, assumes that even if Hillary won the election, probably a minimum of 45-50 MILLION people would have still voted for Trump regardless.

EVEN with a Hillary win, the people who were happy to stand on the side of bigotry and turn a blind eye to minorities being pushed under the bus while doing so, in exchange for the promise of personal enrichment, is very much still a thing.

Even with a Hillary win, those people still exist.

This discussion would still be absolutely relevant.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

Ridiculous.

When you vote for a racist, homophobic, and sexist main who says he will do racist, homophobic, and sexist things and is already acting upon them days after the election, then you at the very least support racism, homophobia and sexism. You don't mind it.

Guess what? That makes you racist, homophobic, and sexist.

You are certainly right that Trump supporters don't give a fuck about a lot of people. It's because they are racist, homophobic, and sexist, and deep down really care only about the rights and feelings of white men.
 
They ask for no judgement for voting for a well known racist, sexist, bigot and xenophobe

They plead ignorance and a lack of information despite the 24 hour news cycle being on blast and the internet being at their fingertips

You can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry
 

Jeels

Member
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?

I am feeling the same thing and I feel like I am becoming such a terrible person. I don't know what to do and at the same time I feel so rejected...
 

MUnited83

For you.
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Drumpf) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Drumpf doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Drumpf supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Drumpf supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

Nah, Trump supporters lost too. All their fucking shit is getting fucked, and they fucking deserve it. Just sucks they had to drag the rest with them.
 

Jeels

Member
To add to this, people assert calling 60 million white people who vote for him can't be racist. If they are, then those who vote for Hillary , knowing her stance on no-fly zone, would make them warmongers.

I felt like this was an interesting comparison the poster made and I wanted to discuss it. Several of us were willing to overlook Hillary's flaws for what we believed was the better good. Why can't a Trump supporter be the same in what they think is the better good?
 
Ridiculous.

When you vote for a racist, homophobic, and sexist main who says he will do racist, homophobic, and sexist things and is already acting upon them days after the election, then you at the very least support racism, homophobia and sexism. You don't mind it.

Guess what? That makes you racist, homophobic, and sexist.

You are certainly right that Trump supporters don't give a fuck about a lot of people. It's because they are racist, homophobic, and sexist, and deep down really care only about the rights and feelings of white men.

No, that is an unfair caricature of the opposing side, and this is one of the main reasons the DNC had such a big problem this time around. There are legitimate reasons that many of the people who support Trump voted the way they did. Many of the policy plans of the Democratic Party are completely against their personal interests. These are people who are suffering financially, and are seeing their wages garnished, their property attached to, and facing foreclosures. Just because they value their own personal financial security more than they do the well-being of others does not preclude their ability to feel or have empathy for others. It is hard to convince a drowning man to save another drowning man when, by doing so, he subjects himself to impending death by drowning.
 
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost
You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,
 
Even if it means that you'll be labeled as a baby killer? Not an accusation on my part, but an observation. I'm glad that you pointed this out because someone from my own family has already begun trying to weasel her way out of owning up to her own culpability in this mess. I'm not having any of it. I won't let them off the hook, and I explained why in almost all of your words.

I'm an Asian American and even though I'm considered a part of the "model minority" demographic, I grew up as one of only a handful of Asian students in my school during the 80's and was teased regularly from my fellow students because of my ethnicity. So while my experiences may not be on the level of urgency that a black or muslim adult or child goes through now, I can certainly empathize with feeling like I'm being stepped on and feeling like there's no one who has their back. And yes, even I as an adult have recently been at the receiving end of ignorant assholes who feel empowered by what's been going on during this election cycle. Maybe not on the level of wanting me shipped out of the country, but very petty, alpha like behavior you see in a high school locker room or football stadium. "Hey Ming!" in this mock Asian accent as I'm riding on my bike past a small group of twenty something year olds. And why? I never even met these people before. What did I ever do to them to warrant such animus?

I'm also adopted as well, and was brought up in a caucasian household, so I do have a binary experience in that regard, but don't believe that all white people are racist, even in my family. Most of them are with me on Trump. They see him for what he is: a snake oil salesman, and voted for Hillary, even though most of them had initially thrown their support behind Bernie Sanders. For the ones that did, I cannot and will not in good conscience forgive them. Ever. There's no excuse. Not when all of this mad man's bullshit has been on display for the world to see. And not just these past 18 months, but really these past few decades. My cousin may not have voted for Trump because of his racism or misogyny, but she was willing to tolerate his racism and misogyny nonetheless. Why? I don't know. Because she's not this dumb, racist inbred. She's a very successful woman in real estate who makes a six figure salary. She's beautiful, she's smart, and up until recently, we were as close to each other as we could be, given how stand offish to people I normally am. But growing up, she always made me feel like I was worth something, even though I knew even back then that she was blowing smoke up my ass in order to make me feel better about myself. But it was always the thought that mattered to me, and for that I was always grateful,

I like the point you brought up with being prochoice. You've probably been called a baby killer before. As have I. And as have many other people here on this forum in their own personal live. But you accept it, for better or for worse, because at the end of the day what good is taking up that stance in the first place if you're not even willing to back it up in deed or rhetoric? So I really resent this call to "come together" from those that stirred this shit in the first place, and that includes my cousin. And that sucks too, because I loved her. I thought I knew her up until a year ago. And I would have taken a bullet for her, as well as her 3 young daughters if any random asshole ever tried to violate or intimidate any of them because they somehow felt that as men that they were entitled to.

Edit: I've very strung up and exhausted right now, so I this post seems all over the place, that is the reason why. My thoughts are cogent, but not really well executed, and for that I apologize.

To be honest, I've never been called baby killer, since Sweden is incredibly pro-choice. Of all the parties in the government right now, I think two of them are pro-life. The Christian Party, and the Swedish Democrats, who also happens to be the nationalistic and xenophobic party.

But if someone would call me baby-killer because of my vote, absolutely I would stand for it. My reasoning for pro-choice is something I can defend and will gladly do so.

I was actually supposed to vote for the most left party because they were the only party for legalizing marijuana, but also a party that I aligned the most with at the time (I'm more social-liberal today than before), but I didn't vote for them as their policies on education were fucked up. I chose not to have them represent me, because I can't justify their policies with good conscience.

Essentially, if you vote for one party, you have to fucking man up and be able to take any criticism. If you can't stand for all of Trump's standpoints - not agreeing, but stand for them - then you're a coward.
 

Dalek

Member
You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

You said it more eloquently than me! Perfectly put.
 
You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

yep

a vote does not outwardly carry nuance
 

Mesoian

Member
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

OH OKAY!

So yeah, they won. Let's show them what they won! A POTUS cabinet full of people who have had active racist and homophobic agendas over the past decade.

But yeah, the people who voted for that shit were just doing what they thought was right.

OH WAIT.

Come on man. At best, your argument only works if you believe that Trump supporters were so deluded that they believed his constant racist, sexist and homophobic behavior was an act for television and they voted for him because they thought it was a funny joke. Otherwise, they ate into that very rhetoric which, surprise, makes you just as racist, sexist and homophobic.
 

Audioboxer

Member
You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

You are right, but it is also right some people on the left cannot make this distinction you just have, or simply don't want to.

That distinction being you are solely responsible for your own vote, and you carry the weight of that vote. You cannot vote and then say you aren't responsible for who you put in power or the consequences of that. However that being said who you choose to vote for, even with the responsibility that entails, doesn't necessarily give free reign for someone to incorrectly assign your personality to 15 different labels they see fit. At the very least you're responsible and carry the weight of what you chose, you aren't not necessarily anything else unless there is evidence you are.
 

Fjordson

Member
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost
Lmao.

We are living in dark times.
 

tbm24

Member
I felt like this was an interesting comparison the poster made and I wanted to discuss it. Several of us were willing to overlook Hillary's flaws for what we believed was the better good. Why can't a Trump supporter be the same in what they think is the better good?

You'd have to first point to anything Trump stood for that wasn't a slight against a minority or religion. What policy did he propose that didn't involve demonizing a group of people?
 
I felt like this was an interesting comparison the poster made and I wanted to discuss it. Several of us were willing to overlook Hillary's flaws for what we believed was the better good. Why can't a Trump supporter be the same in what they think is the better good?

Because Hillary didn't say "I'm gonna bomb them". She said some stuff that was troubling, yes. If she won and instated the no-fly zone, then yes everyone who voted for her would have to own up to it.
 
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost
They voted for a candidate, not for his policies. You don't get to literally put a racist man in power then go "it's ok, I don't agree with those things!" when you just gave him power to enact said things. They might not be racist homophobic or sexist but at best, they are harmfully ignorant and at worst - assuming not racist and yadda yadda - intentionally compliant.

They deserve no respect or consideration because they've given others none as they look only at their own immediate needs at the cost of the well being of others who are already in awful situations.
 
No, that is an unfair caricature of the opposing side, and this is one of the main reasons the DNC had such a big problem this time around. There are legitimate reasons that many of the people who support Trump voted the way they did. Many of the policy plans of the Democratic Party are completely against their personal interests. These are people who are suffering financially, and are seeing their wages garnished, their property attached to, and facing foreclosures. Just because they value their own personal financial security more than they do the well-being of others does not preclude their ability to feel or have empathy for others. It is hard to convince a drowning man to save another drowning man when, by doing so, he subjects himself to impending death by drowning.
As opposed to the nothing that the Republicans have provided?

You can go on to say that this was an anti-establishment protest vote against the elite, well hey that's a great job voting for a billionaire elite supported by more of the elite who is instilling them in his cabinet. Fantastic work.
 
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

I gotta give you this, that I don't believe that everyone who votes for Trump is racist. Gullible and desperate seems to be the keyword.

But if you question someone who voted for him, that person does not have the right to stand there and say that they aren't accountable for his actions and policies considering what he said during his campaign.

It's rarely that you find a party or a politician that you feel 100% aligned with, but you gotta go with the representative that represents you the most, whereas the remaining points you don't agree with, you can't just shrug them off and be offended when someone calls you out.
 

Jakoo

Member
"To add to this, people assert calling 60 million white people who vote for him can't be racist. If they are, then those who vote for Hillary , knowing her stance on no-fly zone, would make them warmongers."

I felt like this was an interesting comparison the poster made and I wanted to discuss it. Several of us were willing to overlook Hillary's flaws for what we believed was the better good. Why can't a Trump supporter be the same in what they think is the better good?

I agree with this assessment. Even though I supported Hillary over Trump, Hillary actually has a hawkish track record in public office. You could make the argument that Trump could potentially be more hawkish, but any opinions he's had have been that of a public citizen and not one that's actually worked in the machinations of government. She has an actual warmongerish track record, that I mostly disagree with.

In the end, I chose to believe Trump would be more hawkish then Hillary and hence, justified my support of her. However, I can understand completely if someone would have taken a different stance on this.
 
This thread is everything that's wrong with liberals.

A bunch of presumptuous and arrogant people with absolutely no idea about how the real world actually works with a harmful (for them, for the minorities, for all of us) and myopic and small minded and simplistic and distorted and, essentially and most especially, wrong view of reality.

Millions of forgotten white working-class voters (middle-age white people account for a third of all US suicides, in a moment when the suicide rate in the US has surged to its highest level in almost three decades, the white privilege), and african americans and latinos (30% of latinos voted for Trump) and muslims at the edge of the financial abyss, unemployed, with a dark vision of their future, desperate voted for a guy that promised them a future, a better life

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

No matter how loud you say it, how many times you repeat it, voting for Trump doesn´t equal to being a racist, sexist piece of shit.

And moderates or Trump supporters are not telling you anything, are liberals that are telling you that.

Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

Then what does he equal? Please explain it to all the stupid liberals.

I love all the people who are magically concerned about the optics now but not before. Did you listen to the debates/follow any news? He had no platform except for hate, sexism, xenophobia, and well clinton's emails and her going to jail for not breaking the law. He had no problems, no ideas he spelled out, he literally explained nothing but mexicans are rapists, muslims are terrorists and should have learned to police themselves if they didn't want to get deported, and we're going to build a wall.

So yes, it's not complicated when that was his entire platform besides casually saying he's going to jump start the economy but never saying how or what his plan is except he's going to finally call out China. When you vote across the board to give that group complete control of the government by granting them all 3 branches then don't be upset when you get lumped into their beliefs. I love the retroactive view of liberals were the ones with hate speech and excluding most of the country and acting like it was a constant theme that they insulted this large group of people but someone trump never did that and gave them hope. The delusions are just so so incredible.

This isn't some bait and switch where he ran on one platform and then completely shifted after winning, he's had a single message the entire time.

You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

This isn't even being about all or nothing. You haven't seen this in other elections because at least those people (even if you hated them) had some type of nuanced position to their beliefs. There is no nuance in this age or radicalized right wing that will gladly take part in and create a belief of hate and disgust towards foreigners, people who aren't white, and women.
 
As opposed to the nothing that the Republicans have provided?

You can go on to say that this was an anti-establishment protest vote against the elite, well hey that's a great job voting for a billionaire elite supported by more of the elite who is instilling them in his cabinet. Fantastic work.

Trump made plenty of vacuous, totally untruthful promises to the blue collars out in the midwest. Sure, he may not actually carry through, but at least he *tried*. He made promises that, if true, would help many of those who voted for him out of the water. Especially his proposed changes in tax rates, and his vague promises of bringing back non-skilled labor. I don't think he will succeed, but that was his message, and it worked.
 

Mesoian

Member
I agree with this assessment. Even though I supported Hillary over Trump, Hillary actually has a hawkish track record in public office. You could make the argument that Trump could potentially be more hawkish, but any opinions he's had have been that of a public citizen and not one that's actually worked in the machinations of government. She has an actual warmongerish track record, that I mostly disagree with.

In the end, I chose to believe Trump would be more hawkish then Hillary and hence, justified my support of her. However, I can understand completely if someone would have taken a different stance on this.

I mean, while I understand that, I fail to understand how Hillary's hawkish nature is somehow worse than Donald Trump's promise to deport all Muslims from the country, whether he has the power or ability to do so or not. One is a questionable stance on global policy, the other is literally tearing the social aspect of this country into tiny pieces.

Are Trump supporters going, "Yeah he said that, but that's clearly bullshit. But all that OTHER STUFF?!? He'll deliver on that, absolutely 100%".

Separating the two doesn't make sense.
 

thefil

Member
You'd have to first point to anything Trump stood for that wasn't a slight against a minority or religion. What policy did he propose that didn't involve demonizing a group of people?

Reducing corruption in government. Pulling out of trade deals. Deregularization. Simplifying tax code. [Variably, depending on when he was talking,] reducing overseas war commitments. Not really a "policy" per se but he also made a large deal out of being a Washington outsider.

I am devastated he won and many of his policies and fearmongering will directly negatively impact minorities. I don't think he was brought into power exclusively by single-issue (racism) voters.

For the voters who bought into the promises I listed, I think there are three types:
a) people ignorant of the racism/sexism caught in his propaganda machine
b) people who do not believe in his racism and sexism, felt that these were campaign moves, and that this made them acceptable
c) people who thought accepting the racism and sexism was worth it for his other policies

I think people in groups (a) and (b) can be convinced they were wrong. Not that this job falls on minorities; it should be taken up by allies.
 
Trump made plenty of vacuous, totally untruthful promises to the blue collars out in the midwest. Sure, he may not actually carry through, but at least he *tried*. He made promises that, if true, would help many of those who voted for him out of the water. Especially his proposed changes in tax rates, and his vague promises of bringing back non-skilled labor. I don't think he will succeed, but that was his message, and it worked.

I'm still having trouble seeing why so many people are viewing offering false hope as a good thing. Is it just to get votes?

All this talk about how minorities need to be better than those that hate us and how it's our fault Trump won, for people to then hold up lying to get votes as the true path to victory?

Shit hurts
 
You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

Bob's not racist, therefore he can't support a racist, so he doesn't vote for Trump.

Bob's not a warmonger, therefore he can't support a warmonger, so he doesn't vote for Hillary.

Then everyone dogpiles on him and yells at him for not voting and says he has no right to an opinion because he refused to contribute to the process.

What would you have him do?
 
Trump supporters don´t give a fuck about you, cause they won, and you lost

You don't live in reality, if you honestly believe that. Or you live in a comfortable bubble somewhere, which I hope lasts for you - because once it pops and you see the naked truth of it all, you're going to feel like a real shitheel.
 
I felt like this was an interesting comparison the poster made and I wanted to discuss it. Several of us were willing to overlook Hillary's flaws for what we believed was the better good. Why can't a Trump supporter be the same in what they think is the better good?
The question has merit, and I think it informs your red lines, which in turn delineate your worldview, what ranges from tolerable to excellent in your book.

At the end of the day, even if you assume the worst about Clinton and believe everything, it means a Trump supporter accepts fucking minorities and empowering white supremacy is more acceptable than corruption and warmongering.
 

Zyae

Member
The real point is Clinton spent most of her campaign focusing on WHY trump was bad. What was she going to do specifically for people in the rust belt? They didnt want to hear Trump was sexist or racist. As uninformed as they are it just seems like more elitism. She could not inspire anyone.
 

Macam

Banned
If you knowingly vote for a racist, sexist piece of shit...you are a racist, sexist piece of shit. The end.

You don't get to do racist shit, then pull out a "I'm not really racist!" get out of jail free card.

This.

Also, older, white America has brought a lot of that misery on themselves by undercutting unions in favor of right to work states, loudly protesting against any sort of sane improvements to a wildly dysfunctional health care system, denouncing any sort of government support whether its infrastructure or welfare and suggesting that both should be pared back to nothing, favoring "free markets" that have outsourced their jobs while denying themselves the needed support to retrain/move and making local markets uncompetitive, and rejecting any sane gun control measures that would, among other things, prevent white people from taking their lives so readily (2/3 of gun deaths are suicides).

To old, white America: You don't care about us, but we cared about you.

But, hey, you got what you wanted, so here's to hoping your forthcoming non-inflation indexed healthcare voucher will let you shop around for the lowest prices on emergency care for opioid addiction or accidental gunshots or whatever other crap you crazy ass white people want to do to yourselves.
 
Bob's not racist, therefore he can't support a racist, so he doesn't vote for Trump.

Bob's not a warmonger, therefore he can't support a warmonger, so he doesn't vote for Hillary.

Then everyone dogpiles on him and yells at him for not voting and says he has no right to an opinion because he refused to contribute to the process.

What would you have him do?

Who's bob
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Just because they value their own personal financial security more than they do the well-being of others does not preclude their ability to feel or have empathy for others.

Yes it does. It's really simple.

If you value financial security over the basic human rights of others, especially those in your own country, then I will call you a shitty human being.

You can't just support the parts you like of the Trump package and be excused from supporting the rest. You supported the whole thing and that included a racist, sexist, and homophobic agenda. You just didn't care about those things that much.

(I don't know if you personally voted for Trump or not)
 

Jumplion

Member
Here's the thing. People don't think they are bigoted. My roommate is pretty far rightwing and a Trump supporter, and as I was talking to him he said things like "He's not a sexist", "He was actually saying this", "It's temporary", etc... We could argue philosophically about whether believing something is true or not holds you accountable to the reality; after all, do we blame the victims of a conman? It's the conman's job to amplify the false reality he wants his victims to feel. But these sorts of people have grown up in an environment where they've been taught that "5+5=55", and that lesson does not undo itself easily.

Because like I said, give a white man all the facts, and it won't change the very real feeling that he is being fucked over by the system.

I'm not saying liberals, particularly minorities, should be obligated to play nice with them. Empathy and sympathy are two different things, and I think everyone could do with more of the former. But as I said in my post two or so pages back, I think it is essential to utilize the resources we have to listen to the pain, to educate people, to embue them with empathy and understanding on how their actions hurt others. I agree, not all Trump supporters are bigots, but all the bigots were Trump supporters. And as tempting as it is to focus on the card carrying bigots, the KKK, the harassers and the assaulters, we can't wander around that swamp for too long. Whether liberals/progressives like it or not, there is an air of condescension and snobbery surrounding the movement, and we need to acknoledge this before reaching out.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and as disgusting as flies are, you need their help to clean up the corpse.
 
Someone was telling me on Facebook I was completely wrong for describing Trump voters a certain way because there were tons of rust belt voters who are not like the GOP of the Bible belt, and that I need to show empathy to them.

That may be true - although they do share many of the same sentiments - but at the end of the day they voted for a racist, sexist idiot who mocks the disabled, insults people's looks, and boasts about sexually assaulting women.

So, I guess the nicest thing I can say about those rust belt Trump voters is that they are selfish pieces of shit. And they're still right-wing and share most of the same, dumb, demonstrably false views as other right-wingers.
 

Ponn

Banned
Who's bob

The 6 million that didn't come back and vote this election from Obama.

The poster is going to make the same mistake i did earlier in this thread, there is a lot of people talking over each other and arguing a couple different things. The main point of this topic seems to be specifically about labeling Trump voters as racists. There was a swelling of people calling non-voters racists that got mixed in and the topics keep getting mixed up.
 

Mesoian

Member
Bob's not racist, therefore he can't support a racist, so he doesn't vote for Trump.

Bob's not a warmonger, therefore he can't support a warmonger, so he doesn't vote for Hillary.

Then everyone dogpiles on him and yells at him for not voting and says he has no right to an opinion because he refused to contribute to the process.

What would you have him do?

Make a decision based on what would be best for the country.

It still doesn't change the option from internal racial strife and endorsed segregation vs continued warlike relations with the rest of the world.

What course of action would you recommend to someone who is not racist and not a warmonger?

Make the big decision, then get more involved with local government and actively protest against the things that your president-elect is doing that you don't believe in. I don't expect Trump supporters who aren't racists to do that though. I expect them to be either very quiet about their choice, or EXTREMELY, AGRESSIVELY and VIOLENTLY loud.

That is, if you actually care.

Most people like Bob don't really care.
 

Woorloog

Banned
What course of action would you recommend to someone who is not racist and not a warmonger?

Protest against Trump on the grounds of his presidential campaign built upon hate and emboldening racists and xenophobes.

(One really disappointing thing about Obama's presidency has been that no one really protested against drone strikes and the like.)
 
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