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[TheMagician]

That's how I see it. But Nintendo has some different ideas: http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/20/13347910/nintendo-switch-home-gaming-system

They're just saying that to avoid headlines of 'Nintendo aren't making home consoles'.

They have a solution to it but it's clear they are not despite what they say.

If you want a horse but I give you a rabbit and tell you it's a horse, it's still a rabbit.

 

[Mariolee]

Sooo to sum this up, the Switch has a minor power boost over the WiiU if docked and is about PS3/Xbox360 levels powerful used as a handheld?

No. It seems to sum this up, we still can't judge the Switch because the information at hand is not enough to gauge the true power of the system based on Thraktor's post.

 

[Speely]

No. It seems to sum this up, we still can't judge the Switch because the information at hand is not enough to gauge the true power of the system based on Thraktor's post.

Shhh. No waiting for more info. Only doom now.

 

[TLZ]

It's beyond me how they spent 500 years on customizing this chip if it really is what we think it is.

Not any years. Man years.

 

[Xellos]

That's definitely a good point and a distinct possibility. It still doesn't explain the fan though, because going by the clock speeds and specs assumed by DF a fan shouldn't be necessary even in docked mode.

Yet adding a fan to a portable device greatly increases its chance of mechanical failure, thus greatly increasing their warranty related costs.

I agree that having a fan in a portable device is not ideal, and that Nintendo probably would have left it out if possible. That said, there's too little known about the fan's operation to draw conclusions. Maybe it only kicks in past a certain temperature. We'll have a clearer picture once more people get hands-on time with Switch.

 

[lherre]

This spec list

.

Mmmmm

 

[Franz Brötchen]

Overall, it seems like a very confused and inadequate piece of hardware that seems to be overreliant on a gimmick. If that reminds you of the Wii U, well, it probably should.

Disagreeing extremely here. The device is nothing like the WiiU. This is already proven by the great reception of the reveal and the Jimmy Fallon segment. Consumers at large more often than not don't care about power. Many claim they do, the success of Minecraft, Pokémon, the PS2, the Wii, the DS, the 3DS prove the opposite can be true.

 

[Voysa Reezun]

The messaging isn't particularly complicated though. The question is what do people see the value proposition of a hybrid as being?

Either people only want a handheld and will only play handheld prices and people only want a home console and will only pay what they think is a fair price for a console with the games this will have (factoring in the quality of that experience as far as graphics go), or people see some value in paying extra to get something that does both.

If people won't, this thing is in trouble already.

This same feature didn't sell WiiUs or Vitas. I know that the situations that those devices found themselves in aren't totally comparable to the Switch's situation, but this feature has been pushed twice with two different devices, and the market seemed uncaring about it.

I suspect that there's a market for hybrid gameplay beyond Japan, but IMO massive success will hinge on at least two of three things happening:

1. A killer app like Wii Sports that somehow uses the hybrid nature of the console in a unique, intuitive way.

2. A lineup of third-party AAA ports that Nintendo can point to and say, "Hey, now you can take your legit console versions of CoD/Fallout/Madden/FIFA on the go!"

3. Mobile games that are widely popular enough to drive people to the Switch to get console versions of those games - and we have proof that Pokemon Go! did this for Pokemon Sun and Moon (and X/Y, IIRC, also saw a jump in sales).

IOW, software is really what matters, which everyone else has already said. The Switch's hybrid nature probably isn't enough as a killer feature to drive people to it like motion controls were.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

The reality of the situation is barring a Wii miracle, Nintendo hardware that retails at greater than $250 is DOA. And looking at GameCube, Wii, and WiiU sales figures, the argument could be made that the Wii was the outliner and Nintendo home consoles just aren't attractive for the average gamer anymore.

So if these are the specs it takes for a Nintendo hybrid to hit the $199-$249 range with a respectable battery life for handheld gaming, than they made the right bussiness decision here.

 

[theangrypirate]

It IS a portable system. It just has a dock. Anyone thinking otherwise is fooling themselves. Nintendo has left the home console market.

Such a bummer, I don't need mobile gaming. I really hope there is something compelling about this system because the 6 Wii U games I bought made me feel like I got screwed over for buying Nintendo's last console. Still like 3 weeks from the presentation, man I can't wait to see what this ends up looking like.

 

[ggx2ac]

Realistically you don't release a portable system with the same power of home consoles during the same generation. That has never or will never happen.

Sega Nomad?

PC-Engine LT/GT?

 

[ShadowFox08]

I don't think 199 will happen. I'd like it to, but I think 250 and 300 is the most likely, because nintendo brand. lol

I remember when people thought the wii u would be 250 because the wii was.. boy were we wrong.

 

[TrutaS]

Just so I understand. Isn't the fact that the portable version will support only 720p mean that both versions (docked and portable) will basically display the same graphics but with a difference in resolution?

I know this is an approximation, but since its half the resolution I thought more people would be mentioning this.

 

[watershed]

Gaf console tech threads are always unintentionally funny. Do people ever look back at these spec rumor threads years after a console's release to compare? I feel like that should be a gaf tradition given how crazy posters get around spec rumors.

 

[Mokujin]

It allegedly has a 25GBps memory bandwidth, how can that not be an impossible bottleneck for 1080p? That's XBOX 360 levels of memory bandwidth we're talking about here..

There is no such thing as a memory bottleneck at these Switch clocks, this was a concern while people though Switch was going to have really high clocks, to illustrate here is a table featuring gtx 10 series memory bandwidth / gigaflops ratio along with Switch ones.

|  gtx TitanX  |  10.974 Tf  |  480  G/sec  |   43.74  |
|  gtx 1080    |   8.873 Tf  |  320  G/sec  |   36.06  |
|  gtx 1070    |   6.463 Tf  |  256  G/sec  |   39.61  |
|  gtx 1060    |   4.372 Tf  |  192  G/sec  |   43.91  |
|  Switch Dock |   0.402 Tf  |  25.6 G/sec  |   63.68  |
|  Switch Port |   0.157 Tf  |  20.8 G/sec  |  132.65  |

 

[ggx2ac]

Mmmmm

Mmh?

 

[RoadHazard]

I would probably compare it more to XB1 --> Scorpio due to the architectural change.

The Scorpio GPU is going to be around 4.6x as powerful as the XBO's. If you think the leap from Wii U to Switch is that large you're crazy.

 

[AgeEighty]

Just so I understand. Isn't the fact that the portable version will support only 720p mean that both versions (docked and portable) will basically display the same graphics but with a difference in resolution?

I know this is an approximation, but since its half the resolution I thought more people would be mentioning this.

According to Thraktor's excellent post, the GPU clock speed differences between console and docked modes are more or less exactly in line with what's needed to power full 1080p vs. 720p.

 

[Kissenkopf]

Gaf console tech threads are always unintentionally funny. Do people ever look back at these spec rumor threads years after a console's release to compare? I feel like that should be a gaf tradition given how crazy posters get around spec rumors.

Yeah and that goes in both ways. Unrealistic in how weak or how powerful a console will be. The biggest problem is, that most people cant handle the numbers correctly (me neither). They see they are smaller or bigger than the one of the competition so it must be wesker or stronger. But that is not always how it works and is incredible hard to make people understand. :/

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's my understanding that one of the limiting factors is that, just like the Wii, the dock for the Switch is very small, so it can overheat very quickly, and so you can't cram anything too fancy in there.

My question is, why the hell does Nintendo insist on making these things so small? Nobody gives a shit about console size, as proven by both Sony and MS's consoles. It's just intentionally gimping for no discernable reason.

The problem with a hybrid development model is that effectively you need power to be in the same ballpark more or less of you want docked and undocked to be managed as a single platform for easier development. Resolution going from 720p to 1080p and he power required to do that is not a problem, but a much bigger difference would be... you would have to optimise them almost as different platforms if you did want to treat each fairly.

I do agree with the console size... especially for Wii U that was designed as more of a core gamer console than the Wii was.

 

[dampflokfreund]

Then ignore me and leave me alone.

I know how you feel. I had similar meltdowns some time ago. I can completely understand your frustration but we should wait until the January event. I have a little bit of hope that there are more than 256 CUDA cores which would make the device more powerful.

If not, then... yeah its weak, but it still is an incredible successor to the 3DS.

 

[BGBW]

It's funny how our standards have lowered over the months.. From PS4 level to xbone to half xbone to.. this. lol

I assume anyone who thought a console about 1/20 the size of the PS4 would be just as powerful, when not even Sony could make their slim version that much smaller, is not with us today since they are clearly brain dead.

 

[hooijdonk17]

There is no such thing as a memory bottleneck at these Switch clocks, this was a concern while people though Switch was going to have really high clocks, to illustrate here is a table featuring gtx 10 series memory bandwidth / gigaflops ratio along with Switch ones.

|  gtx TitanX  |  10.974 Tf  |  480  G/sec  |   43.74  |
|  gtx 1080    |   8.873 Tf  |  320  G/sec  |   36.06  |
|  gtx 1070    |   6.463 Tf  |  256  G/sec  |   39.61  |
|  gtx 1060    |   4.372 Tf  |  192  G/sec  |   43.91  |
|  Tegra Dock  |   0.402 Tf  |  25.6 G/sec  |   63.68  |
|  Tegra Port  |   0.157 Tf  |  20.8 G/sec  |  132.65  |

This is by far the worst rationalization of the Switch memory bandwidth I've heard. So the consolation is that the GPU is so shit that it will never run the kind of resolution, texture or poly/particle count that would require a bandwidth larger than the XBOX 360? I guess we should all give Nintendo a standing ovation for their genious..

It has a totally underwhelming GPU and terrible bandwidth; that the bandwidth is enough for what kind of GPU it comes equipped with is irrelevant when the GPU itself is shit.

 

[GameAddict411]

I just realised that it has 25 GB/s memory bandwidth that's also shared with the CPU. I just kept on laughing for a while. The X360 actually has more effective bandwidth than this and we saw how many sub HD games were on it. This thing will struggle with 720p let alone 1080p.

Hell, my old laptop from 2011 which was low-mid grade back then had the Nvidia GT 540M that had more dedicated bandwidth and more GFLOPS. I am pretty sure 5 years later will yield much better efficiency than this? I am also wondering why Nintendo is using a cooling fan with this device considering the chip was designed to be passively cooled at much higher clock rate. This thing is not worth more than $200 IMO.

 

[Broken Hope]

So we're at the denial phase of the Nintendo console reveal, where fanboys can't believe Nintendo have cheapened out yet again despite previous history.

 

[Mokujin]

The Scorpio GPU is going to be around 4.6x as powerful as the XBO's. If you think the leap from Wii U to Switch is that large you're crazy.

3DS to Switch jump laughs all day at Xbox One to Scorpio one though.

 

[AgeEighty]

I assume anyone who thought a console about 1/20 the size of the PS4 would be just as powerful, when not even Sony could make their slim version that much smaller, is not with us today since they are clearly brain dead.

1/10 actually, but then the dimensions actually don't mean that much with regard to power.

So we're at the denial phase of the Nintendo console reveal, where fanboys can't believe Nintendo have cheapened out yet again despite previous history.

There are some pretty non-fanboyish posts in this thread from technical folks suggesting that it's probably not as bad as it looks.

 

[TheMagician]

Sega Nomad?

PC-Engine LT/GT?

The battery on the Nomad was especially atrocious. It also came out after the PlayStation and Saturn had been released.

Consoles back then were also much smaller and simpler in design, not even requiring a fan.

PC Engline LT didn't look as good as SNES games either.

 

[GameAddict411]

There is no such thing as a memory bottleneck at these Switch clocks, this was a concern while people though Switch was going to have really high clocks, to illustrate here is a table featuring gtx 10 series memory bandwidth / gigaflops ratio along with Switch ones.

|  gtx TitanX  |  10.974 Tf  |  480  G/sec  |   43.74  |
|  gtx 1080    |   8.873 Tf  |  320  G/sec  |   36.06  |
|  gtx 1070    |   6.463 Tf  |  256  G/sec  |   39.61  |
|  gtx 1060    |   4.372 Tf  |  192  G/sec  |   43.91  |
|  Switch Dock |   0.402 Tf  |  25.6 G/sec  |   63.68  |
|  Switch Port |   0.157 Tf  |  20.8 G/sec  |  132.65  |

the bandwidth is also shared with the CPU, so how will that work? Assuming this isn't flawed calculations.

 

[Panajev2001a]

1/10 actually, but then the dimensions actually don't mean that much with regard to power.



There are some pretty non-fanboyish posts in this thread from technical folks suggesting that it's probably not as bad as it looks.

Power dissipation gets increasingly tougher the smaller the hot volume you are trying to cool is.

 

[AgeEighty]

Power dissipation gets increasingly tougher the smaller the hot volume you are trying to cool is.

I'm aware, but when you're comparing two pieces of hardware you have things running at different temperatures, speeds, configurations, &c. There are a lot more factors involved and it's not just a linear correlation between size and power, which is what that poster seemed to be suggesting.

 

[RoadHazard]

Just so I understand. Isn't the fact that the portable version will support only 720p mean that both versions (docked and portable) will basically display the same graphics but with a difference in resolution?

I know this is an approximation, but since its half the resolution I thought more people would be mentioning this.

Yeah. In portable mode you should get a bit over Wii U performance (noticeably but not significantly better), in docked mode you should get basically the exact same visuals but in 1080p instead of 720p.

 

[Panajev2001a]

3DS to Switch jump laughs all day at Xbox One to Scorpio one though.

The issue is with the performance bracket the 3DS was in mostly.

 

[Hermii]

I just realised that it has 25 GB/s memory bandwidth that's also shared with the CPU. I just kept on laughing for a while. The X360 actually has more effective bandwidth than this and we saw how many sub HD games were on it. This thing will struggle with 720p let alone 1080p.

Hell, my old laptop from 2011 which was low-mid grade back then had the Nvidia GT 540M that had more dedicated bandwidth and more GFLOPS. I am pretty sure 5 years later will yield much better efficiency than this? I am also wondering why Nintendo is using a cooling fan with this device considering the chip was designed to be passively cooled at much higher clock rate. This thing is not worth more than $200 IMO.

It's safe to say there is more to the memory subsystem than the main pool of memory. There always is with Nintendo.

 

[hooijdonk17]

It's safe to say there is more to the memory subsystem than the main pool of memory. There always is with Nintendo.

And the 3rd parties hate them for it.. which kind of would beat the design purpose of wooing the 3rd parties..

But then, this is Nintendo.

 

[RoadHazard]

3DS to Switch jump laughs all day at Xbox One to Scorpio one though.

Yeah, sure, if you view this as the successor to the 3DS rather than the successor to the Wii U the leap is good. You just have to accept that Nintendo has given up on the home console market and is from now on only making handhelds. They may be pushing it as a "home console first and foremost", but what it truly is is a handheld with TV-out and different controller options.

 

[Hermii]

And the 3rd parties hate them for it.. which kind of would beat the design purpose of wooing the 3rd parties..

But then, this is Nintendo.

Do they though? Sources? With the Wii U the only thing I remember got praise was the memory.

 

[AgeEighty]

Yeah, sure, if you view this as the successor to the 3DS rather than the successor to the Wii U (which hardware-wise it absolutely is) the leap is good. You just have to accept that Nintendo has given up on the home console market and is from now on only making handhelds (with TV-out and separate controllers).

It's being marketed as a home console and it does do more as a home console, so whether you like the specs or not, that's objectively untrue.

 

[Aztechnology]

Wow that's stupidly weak. Wii-U put on repeat.

I'm kidding obviously handheld gamers will eat this up, but it is shamefully weak considering. They really should have gone with the X1.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm aware, but when you're comparing two pieces of hardware you have things running at different temperatures, speeds, configurations, &c. There are a lot more factors involved and it's not just a linear correlation between size and power, which is what that poster seemed to be suggesting.

We can debate on the kind of curve we are expecting, but the gist of what he said was correct... expecting PS4 performance out of a tiny handheld when we did not have enough manufacturing technology and design jumps to justify the efficiency necessary to achieve the same perfomance (at a low enough wattage) as something a lot bigger and easier to cool and that you do not have to hold in your hands (the other issue even if you could dissipate all that heat away, but I am already assuming it would never target anything like 100 Watts of power consumption).

 

[_Ryo_]

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Switch is actually less powerful than the Nvidia Shield in both docked and portable mode.

I don't see how it'd get many third party ports of big games. It's amazing that Dark Souls was running on it. But if it gets XV, Ni no Kuni II, etc I expect them to be some very gimped ports.

 

[Mokujin]

This is by far the worst rationalization of the Switch memory bandwidth I've heard. So the consolation is that the GPU is so shit that it will never run the kind of resolution, texture or poly/particle count that would require a bandwidth larger than the XBOX 360? I guess we should all give Nintendo a standing ovation for their genious..

It has a totally underwhelming GPU and terrible bandwidth; that the bandwidth is enough for what kind of GPU it comes equipped with is irrelevant when the GPU itself is shit.

I don't know what problem do you have but the numbers speak for themselves, you may keep complaining about the Switch raw power, but it's a fact that even with a standard Tegra X1 64 bit bandwidth setup there is more than enough bandwidth to feed the SoC needs.

And let's be clear, I'm not trying to defend Switch raw power or anything, but I'm quite happy getting the Portable we deserve, its a 10x jump from vita at twice the resolution with (most probably) the added benefits of playing those at 1080 on my tv.

I have a Ps4 and a gtx 1060 PC for a more graphic intensive gaming already, so save me that "rationalization" dumb argument because it doesn't make any sense.

 

[RoadHazard]

It's funny how our standards have lowered over the months.. From PS4 level to xbone to half xbone to.. this. lol

Yeah, as you said, memory bandwidth isn't confirmed. Yet.

Anyone who thought this thing would be comparable to the PS4, or even close to that, was always living in dreamland. That was never, ever happening, and no rational person thought it was. We just hoped for something a bit better than this.

 

[AgeEighty]

We can debate on the kind of curve we are expecting, but the gist of what he said was correct... expecting PS4 performance out of a tiny handheld when we did not have enough manufacturing technology and design jumps to justify the efficiency necessary to achieve the same perfomance (at a low enough wattage) as something a lot bigger and easier to cool and that you do not have to hold in your hands (the other issue even if you could dissipate all that heat away, but I am already assuming it would never target anything like 100 Watts of power consumption).

Who actually expected PS4 performance, though? I feel like that gets thrown around a lot and there certainly have been a handful of pie-in-the-sky dreams about the maximum that could be done with Switch's hardware profile, but most people have been fairly realistic about it within a realistic range of optimistic and pessimistic estimates.

However, there's a pretty wide middle ground between "as powerful as a PS4" and "1/10 as powerful as a PS4" which is more likely to be where the Switch sits, somewhere.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Switch is actually less powerful than the Nvidia Shield in both docked and portable mode.

Not with the customizations Nvidia will have done with it. I recommend reading Thraktor's post on the subject.

 

[calc84maniac]

About memory bandwidth... Before you start comparing to conventional setups, remember that Maxwell uses tile-based rendering which greatly reduces bandwidth usage. Or so I've heard dozens of times over the past few months.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't know what problem do you have but the numbers speak for themselves, you may keep complaining about the Switch raw power, but it's a fact that even with a standard Tegra X1 64 bit bandwidth setup there is more than enough bandwitch to feed the SoC needs.

And let's be clear, I'm not trying to defend Switch raw power or anything, but I'm quite happy getting the Portable we deserve, its a 10x jump from vita at twice the resolution with (most probably) the added benefits of playing those at 1080 on my tv.

I have a Ps4 and a gtx 1060 PC for a more graphic intensive gaming already, so save me that "rationalization" dumb argument because it doesn't make any sense.

More like 6x docked and slightly less undocked, but fair point

http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/

I do hope the screen quality is good. The OLED screen of the PS Vita is one of the things I would miss most ... alongside its super awesome DPad and symmetric analog sticks.

Still, many of us hoped in a last hurrah in the dedicated home console market and see what Nintendo first party developers could do with a machine fast enough to run Xbox One ported games (and coming out 3 years after there was hope this was not going to be impossible for Nintendo to target cheaply enough too), but we are effectively witnessing Nintendo adding TV out capabilities to their handhelds and killing off their dedicated home consoles line.

 

[AgeEighty]

Still, many of us hoped in a last hurrah in the dedicated home console market and see what Nintendo first party developers could do with a machine fast enough to run Xbox One ported games (and coming out 3 years after there was hope this was not going to be impossible for Nintendo to target cheaply enough too)

If Nintendo first party developers wanted a machine like that to develop for, they'd have it. By all accounts the company's hardware and software teams collaborate fairly closely.

I still think it's selling Switch short to just call it a "portable with TV out" without having more information than this story provides.

 

[Broken Hope]

I do hope the screen quality is good.

From Nintendo? It's going to be horrible, their screens are always horrible.

 

[Rolf NB]

Disagreeing extremely here. The device is nothing like the WiiU. This is already proven by the great reception of the reveal and the Jimmy Fallon segment.

It's exactly like the Wii U in that they doubled down on the "move your game off the TV" aspect. In utility, it is a Wii U with vastly extended (infinite) working range measured from the base unit. In design approach, it is an inversion of the Wii U, moving the processing hardware and storage responsibilities from the base unit into the controller.

Consumers at large more often than not don't care about power. Many claim they do, the success of Minecraft, Pokémon, the PS2, the Wii, the DS, the 3DS prove the opposite can be true.

Price and good 1st party exclusive beget install base begets exclusive 3rd party support begets ongoing hardware sales.
The sales split between 3DS and 3DS XL still demonstrates quite clearly that consumers are more than willing to pay for a premium experience. So do the sales splits of the hilariously single-digit number of day-and-date multiplatform Vita+3DS releases. If there is a better way to experience the same game, consumers will pay for it.

3DS and Wii peculiarities (dual screens, controller) led to many de-facto exclusive designs simply because they were too difficult to transfer to other platforms. The Switch does not have any built-in advantage of this sort. EO, Layton, Ace Attorney are either dead already or, if they do get reworked to a single wide-screen setup, are no longer self-shackled to a Nintendo design. The Switch will, completely unlike the Wii, completely unlike the 3DS, have to compete on the quality of the experience it delivers, and performance is a factor in this, always has been.

The new advantage it has is making every game a portable game, if the consumers wishes it. There is no longer a developer-imposed "portable game" vs "console game" dichotomy.

Actually I see this as Nintendo's best shot at receiving and retaining 3rd party multiplatform releases, simply because the option to go portable on anything and everything might outweigh the performance drawbacks.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Who actually expected PS4 performance, though? I feel like that gets thrown around a lot and there certainly have been a handful of pie-in-the-sky dreams about the maximum that could be done with Switch's hardware profile, but most people have been fairly realistic about it within a realistic range of optimistic and pessimistic estimates.

However, there's a pretty wide middle ground between "as powerful as a PS4" and "1/10 as powerful as a PS4" which is more likely to be where the Switch sits, somewhere.



Not with the customizations Nvidia will have done with it. I recommend reading Thraktor's post on the subject.

It depends on how much Nintendo is worried about the device having a very low power consumption and as long battery life as possible, their customisations could be all targeting that area. As you said, home console wise they have a faster than Wii U docked profile (gives them extra CPU and GPU performance than Wii U and the GPU has quite a good number of extra features available) and a Wii U like undocked one which is more than enough as a handheld already. Difference in resolution and maybe slightly in frame rate too between docked and undocked mode can use the performance delta between the two modes without presenting an extra challenge to the developer.

I am not sure Nintendo would go for the extra speed factor else they would have tried to get on the X1's successor train instead of customising the X1 to their perfect hybrid ideal.