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[Fraeon]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

The fastest launcher Lee has (or pretty much anyone) is still slower than your jab or your fastest mid poke. Most characters can pick from an easy, less damaging combo or a harder one that does more damage but increases your chance of dropping it. Even good players drop combos.

And 10 hit strings still exist in Tekken.

You can also either let the launcher miss and punish it with your own or block and punish if you know that it's coming.

 

[oneida]

They already did that. It's called Tekken 4 and most people hated it.



The shortness of the juggle is the one saving grace, and the only reason it exists is to make sure that the combos are short. I understand that. I'm just saying that based on the OPs comnents, that is the most butt ugly example.

Also once again, in the context of this thread, your gif doesn't really mean anything. People are talking about straight up juggles. Most 3D games have solid animations for odd angle hits and different hit reactions based on the way the move hits.

The juggles you're describing haven't really existed in VF since Lau's TOD was removed in VF3 (1996).

 

[Manbig]

The juggles you're describing haven't really existed in VF since Lau's TOD was removed in VF3 (1996).

I've gotta say, this whole thing that you always do where you get incredibly defensive the moment anyone says anything even remotely negative about Virtua Fighter, no matter how inconsequential, is one of the most tiring things to read in fighting game threads here. And this is coming from someone that thinks that Virtua Fighter 5 FS is currently the best 3D fighter available, with the best overall attack and hit reaction animations.

The juggle state that I'm talking about is still 100% there. That combo video that I linked earlier shows many examples of it. If I pick Aoi, and launch someone with 33P+K and it's a non lightweight character, so I can't bound with P into P+K afterwards, the follow ups are PP6PP, or 2P into KPK, or 2P into PP6PP depending on the character and open/closed stance. All of that makes the opponent's character model react in the same awkward ass way where each hit barely keeps them up and just keep slowly falling toward the ground.

I am saying that I think this looks uglier than juggles in most other fighters, but I understand that they have to keep it this way in VF so they can limit the combos. That's why most of the nastier combos you see in that video that I shared before, and also in that gif that you shared earlier, involve the wall, because it allows every character to add a shitload of hits to their combos.

None of this changes the fact that the juggle state and the way that characters react to being hit in the juggle state look awkward as fuck in VF.

I do not understand how I can make this more clear for you to understand this, unless you're just willingly burying your head in the sand on this point.

 

[Baron Von Beans]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

As others have said, there are many things that can alter how juggle combos work. A launcher is not always required, and the moves that follow*should* be relatively universal, I feel. Special moves, assist moves, and more can change the opponent's trajectory, which can alter how things go for you. Depending on what has already happened in the combo that you may or may not remember, that can seriously change what you do. Being able to adapt on the fly is a thing of beauty, and allows for truly open and creative combos.

Or heck, read their approach, and do a simple (yet effective) series of moves that may not look as flashy, but still dishes out the damage.

On 3d fighters, I have yet to see a juggle system not look silly, but even some 2d fighters have slightly questionable looking moves for this. Regardless, silly looking or not, they are very effective tools that all players should have in their arsenal if they are able.

 

[Bizazedo]

Juggle combos are a lot more involved than just memorized input. There's weight, distance, angles, stage obstacles that all need to be taken in account on the fly.

Also the 10 hit combos were horrible. They were just pre-canned strings that could easily be interrupted as long as you knew the gaps.

I don't understand this hate for juggles when they're just a combo, and if you hate combos then just say that.

........eh, I play fighters, and I kind of agree. I don't like juggles either. It requires too much of a suspension of disbelief. If the same combo landed, but my opponent was staggering instead of horizontally airborne? I'd like it more.

The only game I could tolerate juggles in is Marvel, but for 3d games like Tekken and VF? Hate it with a passion. It's one of the reasons I started slipping out of my love of VF despite loving the shit out of it. More and more bounces / juggles it felt like.

 

[Ferrio]

........eh, I play fighters, and I kind of agree. I don't like juggles either. It requires too much of a suspension of disbelief.

I just don't get this mentality, especially for a genre that has never been realistic. We're playing games, not simulators.

If something as minor as that bothers you I don't know how you play *any* games at all.

 

[Skilletor]

........eh, I play fighters, and I kind of agree. I don't like juggles either. It requires too much of a suspension of disbelief. If the same combo landed, but my opponent was staggering instead of horizontally airborne? I'd like it more.

The only game I could tolerate juggles in is Marvel, but for 3d games like Tekken and VF? Hate it with a passion. It's one of the reasons I started slipping out of my love of VF despite loving the shit out of it. More and more bounces / juggles it felt like.

So you're cool with a devil shooting laser beams at a kangaroo, but juggles are where you draw the line? lol

 

[Bizazedo]

I just don't get this mentality, especially for a genre that has never been realistic. We're playing games, not simulators.

And I can't even really explain it. It just bugs the shit out of me. The longer they are, the worse it is (except for Marvel, for some reason, but even there once the infinites are found I stop).

I think it might be because I love fighters more for mindgames and anticipating / reacting to attacks and feints and not to whether someone has practiced enough in the training room to do some large series of inputs where, after the first one hits, the other player cannot stop you...and staggered / grounded combos are by nature not too long. Also looks more natural, too.

Longer the combo is, the worse it gets for me.

So you're cool with a devil shooting laser beams at a kangaroo, but juggles are where you draw the line? lol

Yeah. Rule of cool. Devils and lasers are cool, floating horizontally is not.

 

[oneida]

I've gotta say, this whole thing that you always do where you get incredibly defensive the moment anyone says anything even remotely negative about Virtua Fighter, no matter how inconsequential, is one of the most tiring things to read in fighting game threads here. And this is coming from someone that thinks that Virtua Fighter 5 FS is currently the best 3D fighter available, with the best overall attack and hit reaction animations.

The juggle state that I'm talking about is still 100% there. That combo video that I linked earlier shows many examples of it. If I pick Aoi, and launch someone with 33P+K and it's a non lightweight character, so I can't bound with P into P+K afterwards, the follow ups are PP6PP, or 2P into KPK, or 2P into PP6PP depending on the character and open/closed stance. All of that makes the opponent's character model react in the same awkward ass way where each hit barely keeps them up and just keep slowly falling toward the ground.

I am saying that I think this looks uglier than juggles in most other fighters, but I understand that they have to keep it this way in VF so they can limit the combos. That's why most of the nastier combos you see in that video that I shared before, and also in that gif that you shared earlier, involve the wall, because it allows every character to add a shitload of hits to their combos.

None of this changes the fact that the juggle state and the way that characters react to being hit in the juggle state look awkward as fuck in VF.

I do not understand how I can make this more clear for you to understand this, unless you're just willingly burying your head in the sand on this point.

shit, man, i'm sorry if defending something i like is really tiring but i do think you're moving goal posts here

From the OP:

You hit your opponent hard enough so he gets knocked out but as he falls you hit him again and he repeats the knock down animation mid air. Then you hit him again and again and the result is a human body that basically floats and awkwardly repeats the same animation over and over again until your hit combo ends.

which, like I said, hasn't existed in VF since Lau's TOD was removed

yes, of course you can just launch into strings but I don't think that's what the OP is talking about. I don't agree that something like 33P+K into P, PP6P looks bad but whatever if you do.

 

[Giftofgab24]

Has anyone posted that insane Fulgore juggle from the KI finals a year or two ago? That was so damn good. It was a Japanese player I believe.

 

[LordKasual]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

It's a risk-reward system.

Most attacks that launch and allow for powerful juggles are very unsafe / easily countered against.

Attacks that lead into REALLY big juggles are usually either telegraphed, SUPER unsafe, or extremely difficult to consistently execute. (electric wind god fist for example)

Juggles themselves allow for characters to have drastically higher damage outputs that are limited by player skill instead of just the flat damage values of the attacks themselves. The branching guesswork is what happens before you fuck up and get hit with the launcher.


I mean FFS, just imagine a game where moves that lead into juggles instead just did flat damage equal to the juggle itself. The game would be shit.


Edit:

I don't see the point in arguing this. If someone doesn't see the value / skill associated with a player who can consistently pull off big combos, then they don't really need to be in any deeper discussions about fighting games.

nobody, and i mean nobody wants to seriously play a game where getting hit by any move resets you to neutral.

thats not a fighting game, its just Hitbox Tag.

 

[Manbig]

shit, man, i'm sorry if defending something i like is really tiring but i do think you're moving goal posts here

From the OP:


which, like I said, hasn't existed in VF since Lau's TOD was removed

yes, of course you can just launch into strings but I don't think that's what the OP is talking about. I don't agree that something like 33P+K into P, PP6P looks bad but whatever if you do.

The OP edited his post to clarify that he's talking about the juggle state. Doesn't matter if it's 3 or 4 hits that do 33% or 10 hits that do 100%. It's about the juggle state animation

In regards to VF, I was talking about this statement specifically:

I see this in almost every fighting game. It looks ridiculous, let alone unrealistic. And it's especially jarring in games with good animations and characters that look and move very realistically.

Which I am saying that VF's animations is great overall, but the juggle state looks butt fucking ugly.

You see, it's fine to defend what you love if someone is being unfair about it. It's even fine to say that you disagree with me on the animation of the juggle state looking bad or awkward. My issue with you is that you can't seem to handle when someone says anything negative about your precious VF, so you go the extra mile by trying to tell the other person that they are wrong, or are "moving goalposts".

Give it a rest, man.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

10 hit combos were never actual combos, they are strings.

A lot of the guess work in Tekken combos is about positioning. Combo breakers aren't even necessary. If there isn't a back and forth in any Fighting Game, someone is making too many mistakes

 

[Robottiimu2000]

I have a really hard time believing this isn't a troll thread..

 

[Bizazedo]

I don't see the point in arguing this. If someone doesn't see the value / skill associated with a player who can consistently pull off big combos, then they don't really need to be in any deeper discussions about fighting games.

nobody, and i mean nobody wants to seriously play a game where getting hit by any move resets you to neutral.

thats not a fighting game, its just Hitbox Tag.

Well, it's not that binary. Knocking someone down, for example, doesn't reset the neutral. You now have to deal with a wake-up situation.

That and the gist of the thread seems to be mostly anti-juggle / horizontal float, not anti-combo. I get the reply you were replying too was attacking combos overall, though.

 

[pineapplepizza]

"Cheap? I paid a lot for this hat!"

 

[QisTopTier]

I have a really hard time believing this isn't a troll thread..

This is one of the most casually active forums when it comes to fighters so it's easy to believe

 

[Anne]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

GAF Scrub Quote of the year lmao

 

[Ferrio]

That and the gist of the thread seems to be mostly anti-juggle / horizontal float, not anti-combo. I get the reply you were replying too was attacking combos overall, though.

It's just the nature of 3D fighters require juggles in order to have a fleshed out combo system, so either you want 3D fighters to have a combo system or you don't.

 

[mbpm1]

GAF Scrub Quote of the year lmao

Combo breakers were a mistake.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

It's just the nature of 3D fighters require juggles in order to have a fleshed out combo system, so either you want 3D fighters to have a combo system or you don't.

Or you can have Soul Caliber's stun system

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Making someone feel helpless and look stupid is one of the best things about fighting games especially when it's made clear that what's happening to them is their own damn fault.

Getting juggled is basically that to the max. You got opened up. Now you're being made to understand that you really ain't shit.

 

[nkarafo]

This particular gif is pretty telling and i'm going to use it in the OP (thanks).

See how the opponent looks like he has no weight. The way he floats, goes up and down without touching the ground, how there's no proper loop in the animation and it ends abruptly, etc, etc.

It looks ugly and fake.

 

[FallingEdge]

See how the opponent looks like he has no weight. The way he floats, goes up and down, there's no proper loop in the animation, etc, etc.

It looks ugly and fake.

what is real about fireballs?

 

[pineapplepizza]

OP please this is beautiful

 

[nkarafo]

what is real about fireballs?

So you're cool with a devil shooting laser beams at a kangaroo, but juggles are where you draw the line? lol

Just to be clear (again) i know i mentioned the word realism in the OP but it's not about realism as a theme. It's about how it looks. Most of the time juggling looks inconsistent to the rest of the game. Yes, you fire fireballs but it looks good. There is a nice animation and some nice effects. The character may be superhuman but it looks like he is doing his thing on a planet governed by some kind of physics.

Juggling looks wrong. Not in the way super humans fight each other but mostly in a way that physics are broken completely. Like the characters are suddenly trapped in a glitchy Matrix world.

Also, if you are so worried about fireballs, in VF there aren't any as far as i know.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

It's just the nature of 3D fighters require juggles in order to have a fleshed out combo system, so either you want 3D fighters to have a combo system or you don't.

If defensive maneuvers weren't so simplified and limited compared to offensive ones, we would probably have many more common options than just launching bodies into the air to be hackeysack'd. It's that fundamental imbalance established early on that led to us to a very narrow set of actions governing standards of fighting game mechanical depth we have decades after many of these systems of design were first introduced. It doesn't have to boring and dry, like the average MMA title, but I'm guessing people are satisfied with the tried and true.

 

[roflwaffles]

Arbitruary invisible walls should be more of a bother than juggles, aesthetically at least.

 

[FallingEdge]

Just to be clear (again) i know i mentioned the word realism in the OP but it's not about realism as a theme. It's about how it looks. Most of the time juggling looks inconsistent to the rest of the game. Yes, you fire fireballs but it looks good. There is a nice animation and some nice effects. The character may be superhuman but it looks like he is doing his thing on a planet governed by some kind of physics.

Juggling looks wrong. Not in the way super humans fight each other but mostly in a way that physics are broken completely. Like the characters are suddenly trapped in a glitchy Matrix world.

Also, if you are so worried about fireballs, in VF there aren't any as far as i know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_oTzd0k58

 

[Do Better]

It's okay for video games to be silly and unrealistic sometimes. I like being reminded that it's just a game and meant for entertainment.

 

[nkarafo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_oTzd0k58

Sorry i don't get your point.

 

[eyeball_kid]

This particular gif is pretty telling and i'm going to use it in the OP (thanks).

See how the opponent looks like he has no weight. The way he floats, goes up and down without touching the ground, how there's no proper loop in the animation and it ends abruptly, etc, etc.

It looks ugly and fake.

I always thought Tobal 2's air juggles looked good. While ridiculous and impossible, at least the juggles feel grounded in a real physics system and the people get tossed around in reasonable ways without too much glitchy stuff. And some really ridiculous combos.

Damn, I really wish SquareEnix would do something with the Tobal IP. Such an overlooked series.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

This is so full of bad opinions it's hard to know where to start, really.

 

[LordKasual]

Combo breakers were a mistake.

Blazblue CT had the best combo breaker ever. Using Burst would remove your ability to barrier block (pushblock + pretty much negates chip damage).

but it also put you in DANGER state (1.5x damage taken IIRC) for the rest of the round, and you didn't get another burst until the next match. So if someone would read your burst and block it, you would basically just be fucked for the rest of the round.

If defensive maneuvers weren't so simplified and limited compared to offensive ones, we would probably have many more common options than just launching bodies into the air to be hackeysack'd. It's that fundamental imbalance established early on that led to us to a very narrow set of actions governing standards of fighting game mechanical depth we have decades after many of these systems of design were first introduced. It doesn't have to boring and dry, like the average MMA title, but I'm guessing people are satisfied with the tried and true.

Well offensive options are pretty much defined by defensive ones, so i don't know what you're getting at here when you speak on "fundamental imbalance". Any move's offensive power is pretty much 50% defined by its properties when blocked.

And 3D fighters have more defensive options than ever, because sidestepping gives you a completely different way to avoid attacks you know are coming.

And in Tekken these days, pretty much everyone has some form of parry and low parry is universal. SFV has recently gone the way of Anime games and included a way to escape blockstun with V-reversal. Even Guilty Gear, the most offensive fighting game out there, has some really good defensive options for those who know how to use them.


Launchers themselves follow this rule of being balanced by defensive options. Almost all of them are stupidly unsafe when blocked. And then you have the really really good ones (Electric Wind God Fist) with really simple to understand weaknesses (can just duck it and wiff punish)

 

[LordKasual]

oops doublepost

 

[Zissou]

Unpopular opinion i know but i really disagree, where's the challenge in beating an opponent that can't react? The challenge should be trying to deceive the opponent to gain a hit, not to mechanically learn predefined sequences of moves.


...I guess it's not a really unpopular opinion after all

Decisions can be made during combos (even in the absence of any combo breaker mechanic) and I think you are doing them a disservice by referring to them as 'predefined sequences of moves.' If the game offers enough flexibility, you can have a lot of different things going on:

1) risk/reward in terms of going for a more reliable hit confirm versus something riskier that will net you more damage (or whether to attempt the confirm at all). Also, risk/reward in going for a easier combo or risking something you may drop in order to get more out of the combo.

2) the decision making when faced with choices between damage, stun, meter gain/use, wake-up pressure, post-combo positioning, etc. can all matter.

3) whether or not to go for a reset (something that the defender has to actively be watchful for as well)

4) because of all of the above, the defender can start predicting what their post-combo situation is going to look like and plan accordingly if they have enough knowledge of the opposing character to know what to expect.

 

[Lemstar]

thanks to OP for clarifying his point

my thinking about why 2d games not by NRS have better looking juggling was
-bigger hitsparks
-more hitstop during combos
-less floppy body/limb movement

are there any resources by people who know animation discussing the topic?

 

[Vazra]

Fighters Destiny is one of those weird games where you have this which is somewhat visually passable in terms of a juggle.

Then you have this visually weird thing being done by the same character.

Any games that are weird with their juggles either visually or in the way they work?

 

[nkarafo]

This is probably the worst (best) example for what i'm talking about. Because you also get weak looking hits that look more like pocking than punching.

 

[SuperOrez]

It's fine.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

This. This is where I'm at.

I'm okay with juggling but something about Mortal Kombat/Injustice's own version just makes me criii~iiinge.

what

i think cringe has lost its meaning

 

[Line_HTX]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

Jabroni.

 

[WarRock]

Blazblue CT had the best combo breaker ever. Using Burst would remove your ability to barrier block (pushblock + pretty much negates chip damage).

but it also put you in DANGER state (1.5x damage taken IIRC) for the rest of the round, and you didn't get another burst until the next match. So if someone would read your burst and block it, you would basically just be fucked for the rest of the round.

I really don't know how punishing a player for using a burst for the whole round and essentially creating the need to play perfectly after it makes for the best combo breaker system ever, neither why BB would change that rule if it was so good.

 

[Anne]

I really don't know how punishing a player for using a burst for the whole round and essentially creating the need to play perfectly after it makes for the best combo breaker system ever, neither why BB would change that rule if it was so good.

More or less this. Blazblue players will bring up CT burst penalties as a joke it was so awful. We bring up most of CT as a joke though.

 

[QisTopTier]

More or less this. Blazblue players will bring up CT burst penalties as a joke it was so awful. We bring up most of CT as a joke though.

I'll forever miss how stupid bangs D jump cancels were in that one though

 

[Narroo]

More or less this. Blazblue players will bring up CT burst penalties as a joke it was so awful. We bring up most of CT as a joke though.

They made it better in later editions; no more penalties. Still, blazblue has a lot of other issues.

 

[QisTopTier]

They made it better in later editions; no more penalties. Still, blazblue has a lot of other issues.

Well it's not that there is a penalty, but there is a trade off. You have to pick between doing an OD or a Burst

 

[irfaanator]

Can we also ban multi hitting moves? They're like juggles on one button or a motion

 

[Vazra]

Can we also ban multi hitting moves? They're like juggles on one button or a motion

You want Maxi out of Soul Calibur?

 

[MechaX]

While I loved irfaanator's Unlimited Bait Works in this topic, it is... somewhat surreal to see someone actually arguing with Oneida about VF.