psychowave
Member
It's okay if you don't blindly trust her, but the "oh well she did this and that after the alleged incident" comments are heinous.
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The state of NeoGAF
- Thread starter EviLore
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It's okay if you don't blindly trust her, but the "oh well she did this and that after the alleged incident" comments are heinous.
Tyler, I was sorry to read on Waypoint that you and Ima have ultimately fallen out beyond repair and that you view this incident so differently. I think this will have been very hard for both of you, I hope when this cools down you consider that it's probably been as difficult for her as it has been for you - and that she won't have intended all this heat and drama.
I think a lot of people are quick to judge. When drink is involved, people engage in ill-judged behaviour. Sexual advances or acts of human interest are rarely completed with the careful consideration and composure they might otherwise be. When we tell other people stories, sometimes we inject an element of bravado and cockiness, details that embellish and make the story more interesting. That's how I view some of the comments you've been quoted as saying in old threads dredged up. Ultimately, they look bad out of context, and in THIS context. In the moment, I'm sure you never intended for her to feel the way she said she felt in that facebook post. I don't necessarily think she's being malicious in saying she felt that way.. I hope as the days roll on you grow calmer and more reflective about it, I don't think you need be so defensive. Although clearly, I understand why you would be.
The whole thing is regretful. Some people will never come back, but I'd hardly say you're Harvey Weinstein. People will think this could have been dealt with better, and being overtaken by events - as it sounds like you all were - perhaps that's the case. You're human, man. We all are. People make mistakes and the climate at the moment amplifies the ferocity of reaction to such mistakes. I don't know if it's possible but I'd say work it out with Ima if you can man. Be honest, humble and reasonable and I'm sure she might be too. I only say this as I think it would make you both feel better, and it might make everyone else feel a bit better about it too.
Lastly, I appreciate you keeping the site up. While many want to watch it burn, I think it's an important place for many people - who had no part in any of these stories whatsoever. I don't think they deserve to lose it.
I think a lot of people are quick to judge. When drink is involved, people engage in ill-judged behaviour. Sexual advances or acts of human interest are rarely completed with the careful consideration and composure they might otherwise be. When we tell other people stories, sometimes we inject an element of bravado and cockiness, details that embellish and make the story more interesting. That's how I view some of the comments you've been quoted as saying in old threads dredged up. Ultimately, they look bad out of context, and in THIS context. In the moment, I'm sure you never intended for her to feel the way she said she felt in that facebook post. I don't necessarily think she's being malicious in saying she felt that way.. I hope as the days roll on you grow calmer and more reflective about it, I don't think you need be so defensive. Although clearly, I understand why you would be.
The whole thing is regretful. Some people will never come back, but I'd hardly say you're Harvey Weinstein. People will think this could have been dealt with better, and being overtaken by events - as it sounds like you all were - perhaps that's the case. You're human, man. We all are. People make mistakes and the climate at the moment amplifies the ferocity of reaction to such mistakes. I don't know if it's possible but I'd say work it out with Ima if you can man. Be honest, humble and reasonable and I'm sure she might be too. I only say this as I think it would make you both feel better, and it might make everyone else feel a bit better about it too.
Lastly, I appreciate you keeping the site up. While many want to watch it burn, I think it's an important place for many people - who had no part in any of these stories whatsoever. I don't think they deserve to lose it.
where exactly did I associate the people that left as alt-right?
DarkestLight
Member
Gonna seriously miss OT, my interest in games has waned significantly. OT was great for finding it about new and interesting films and tv. Have fond memories of breaking bad threads back in the day.
I can't really comment on what's happened as I dont really know all the details, but he way it was handled was pretty shitty.
Without OT this place is nothing to me.
Spent a hell of a lot of time lurking around here, really going to miss it.
I can't really comment on what's happened as I dont really know all the details, but he way it was handled was pretty shitty.
Without OT this place is nothing to me.
Spent a hell of a lot of time lurking around here, really going to miss it.
SpaceDrake
Member
I mean, that last one is more or less it. The views many were defending were "far left" for America, because mainstream political thought is the Republican Party (that is, laissez-faire oligarchic imperial capitalism), "leftist" thought is the Democratic Party (i.e., what would be center-right conservative "liberal capitalism" in most other countries) and "right-wing but still mainstreamable" is the alt-right (which is, of course, populist racial-superiority-focused imperial fascism that is trending toward full repeal of democracy in favor of plutocracy or neo-feudalism). Any kind of intolerance of the latter and strident advocation of the rights of women, trans people, persons of color and other minorities is going to appear to be extraordinarily far-left in comparison.
If anything, this episode should probably give our non-American friends pause. This is a snapshot of what America is going through, right now. It is but one fragment of what we experience now every single day.
Anyway, that opening post is... disappointing, to say the least. It effectively boils down to "don't believe women", which is rather not a great look given where and how all of this first came to light, and also makes all of the previous efforts at advocating for the rights of minorities feel extremely hollow. While GAF has been a useful resource for me in the past, I don't think I can continue to post here in good conscience, so long as Malka remains in charge and so long as the policies outlined in the OP remain in place. Perhaps someday a day will come when things change enough to post here again, which is why I'm not asking for a ban outright, but right now it doesn't seem like that day will be coming any time soon.
Hopefully I can keep interacting with Carpe Fulgur and Trails fans elsewhere! GAF has been a useful tool for feedback and conversation, but I fear it won't be any longer.
LostDonkey
Member
Thanks for the post Tyler.
I'm not going to get involved as it's none of my business but it's more than a lot of people would do.
Now, can we get back to talking about games!!
GAF LIVES!!!!!!!
I'm not going to get involved as it's none of my business but it's more than a lot of people would do.
Now, can we get back to talking about games!!
GAF LIVES!!!!!!!
DeSo
Banned
They knew the forum would turn on them next.
Nitpicker_Red
Member
I guess the removal of Off-Topic is related to the feedback people gave when NeoGaf closed. You can have political discussions anywhere but there is nowhere else for a comparable level of slow games discussion.
It's surprising though that after closing the forum for a while (when everyone assumed it would be gone forever) you'd just open it back by using the removal of Off-Topic as a symbolic gesture on how things will get better. I think people were expecting for a different symbolic gesture, no matter actual culpability. Probably, this will forever damage users goodwill.
This message will be lost to the times so here's a Mario:
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It's surprising though that after closing the forum for a while (when everyone assumed it would be gone forever) you'd just open it back by using the removal of Off-Topic as a symbolic gesture on how things will get better. I think people were expecting for a different symbolic gesture, no matter actual culpability. Probably, this will forever damage users goodwill.
This message will be lost to the times so here's a Mario:
─────▄▄▄▄───▄▄▄─
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──▄▀▀█▄─█─▀▀▀██─
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DaytimeWhiskey
Banned
Sarcasm, Evilore can go fuck himself
Fuck off with this noise. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of women won't even report sexual misconduct/abuse/harassment/downright fucking rape because of this attitude. Maybe there is a chance she is lying but you still absolutely have to take what she says seriously.
But no, Evilores response is basically "bitches be tripping" and some of you are perfectly ok with that
PhantomThief
Banned
Nonsense.
They were members of this community as well and that decision I believe wasnt an easy one, makes you wonder why they all joined up at that new place? Maybe they wanted no association with Tyler?
Good lets talk again about games that was what attracted me joining this site, that it was probably the best forum on the internet to discuss about my favourite hobby. I think the last years that focus diverted way too much with politics. I am happy if we see a return to the original focus of the site.
Trial by social media is not the answer either.
Hey, no fair! He gets banned and I get overlooked? Always the same on this forum. :-/
Some Nobody
Junior Member
Nah. OT wasn't the problem. I've been here since 2013, and I didn't even start going into OT until this year and I still had a fairly negative opinion of the people here after a year or so of being here. What pushed "important" people away from GAF certainly wasn't the politics.
That was the "lazy devs" people. Y'know, the ones who claimed every developer was shit if a game ran at 900p instead of 1080. It was the "loltaku" people, the ones who thought GG was disgusting because the movement was so anti-women, but also still really hated "gamez journalizm". Yeah, those people. Those are the ones that eventually made GAF into the gag of the internet.
For awhile there were the leakers, but one by one they either got banned due to occasional inaccuracies or driven off because the gaming side was so negative and toxic about games. (I've seen Shinobi's tweets. Dude's pretty liberal. He ain't leave 'cause part of GAF was pro-LGBT/women/POC. He left 'cause ya'll pretty much called him a sycophant.)
The other reason people hate GAF is because some of the moderators are absolutely garbage. There's a post earlier in this thread that talks about it in detail from mollipen:
I've been posting on internet forums since 1999 and holy shit I have literally never visited a board where the mods were as overbearing as they were here. And they knew it too, which is why ban messages would say such shitty things. I've been "Some Nobody" for about two years because some jerk-off admin thought it was cute to change my name because I disagreed with his thread title change in a thread about Bloodborne. It just really felt like this place was run by people who'd never had power before, and now that they had it they were going to abuse it for all it was worth.
GAF being hated because OT usually comes from people who just couldn't stand that there was a single forum on the Web that leaned left instead of right.
That was the "lazy devs" people. Y'know, the ones who claimed every developer was shit if a game ran at 900p instead of 1080. It was the "loltaku" people, the ones who thought GG was disgusting because the movement was so anti-women, but also still really hated "gamez journalizm". Yeah, those people. Those are the ones that eventually made GAF into the gag of the internet.
For awhile there were the leakers, but one by one they either got banned due to occasional inaccuracies or driven off because the gaming side was so negative and toxic about games. (I've seen Shinobi's tweets. Dude's pretty liberal. He ain't leave 'cause part of GAF was pro-LGBT/women/POC. He left 'cause ya'll pretty much called him a sycophant.)
The other reason people hate GAF is because some of the moderators are absolutely garbage. There's a post earlier in this thread that talks about it in detail from mollipen:
I've been posting on internet forums since 1999 and holy shit I have literally never visited a board where the mods were as overbearing as they were here. And they knew it too, which is why ban messages would say such shitty things. I've been "Some Nobody" for about two years because some jerk-off admin thought it was cute to change my name because I disagreed with his thread title change in a thread about Bloodborne. It just really felt like this place was run by people who'd never had power before, and now that they had it they were going to abuse it for all it was worth.
GAF being hated because OT usually comes from people who just couldn't stand that there was a single forum on the Web that leaned left instead of right.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
You and me both men :/
DeSo
Banned
Of course they wouldn't, they're complicit in this place going to shit as well.
Wow so that's what looks like a real shitstorm 😁 I've wondered during the whole weekend why I couldn't have my daily fix of NeoGAF and I finally had my explanation yesterday: an allegation. Some people truly have lost their minds on the Internet and can't wait to have more information before jumping to conclusions... Well, that's the world we live in now, what a beautiful weapon is creating bandwagons.
Well, welcome back GAF !
Well, welcome back GAF !
nkarafo
Member
What does that mean though? There's a difference between taking an accusation seriously and wanting to destroy someone's life before he even has the chance to prove he is innocent.
psychowave
Member
Sexual assault accusations don't destroy men's lives.
Add me to the list. I want off this site.
Read the waypoint article, another thread in the gaming forum.
Tyler should step away from the site, state he is leaving until all allegations have been resolved and apologize for his behaviour around how he handled the aftermath of the news breaking.
It is weird feeling like you are in a minority that still believes in innocent until proven guilty and due process.
It is weird feeling like you are in a minority that still believes in innocent until proven guilty and due process.
LostDonkey
Member
You want off the site...but you came on it to say that.
The mind boggles.
Just keep away in the first place and stop shitting the place up even more.
Thunder_God_Bane
Member
Hey Evilore,
I read a sites article about the allegation and commented exactly this below on their website which became the best comment via votes.
Am I the only one that finds it strange how Leupp says he creeped her out by gettin in the shower without her consent but went on to have a physical relationship with him? Which means 'sexual' relationship.
Who in their right mind would go on to have a sexual relationship with someone they thought was a creep?
Something doesn't smell right about any of what she's said.
I read a sites article about the allegation and commented exactly this below on their website which became the best comment via votes.
Am I the only one that finds it strange how Leupp says he creeped her out by gettin in the shower without her consent but went on to have a physical relationship with him? Which means 'sexual' relationship.
Who in their right mind would go on to have a sexual relationship with someone they thought was a creep?
Something doesn't smell right about any of what she's said.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
Sidenote: I feel like duckroll played his own part in moderation of this site being shit. You can't tell the regular users not to troll and then proceed to troll yourself, constantly posting news and leaving platform information out of your title just to get people's hopes up so they can have them dashed when they click and find out its mobile. Then on top of that, to have the nerve to mock them for not being excited about a mobile title.
Plus in general he was a jerk-ass when he wanted to be. Nirolak best mod.
To Far Away Times
Member
This is a great post and really sums up my thoughts.
If it's bannable to agree with this, then this forum is no longer for me. If this forum comes around perhaps I'll start posting again. I'm really quite disappointed with the response and reaction from Evilore and shutting down discourse in the OT is not only a disservice to the site but it is not a very good look as well. I'll be looking for new forums in the meantime.
User123456
Member
Very much this. It's one thing to take alleged sexual assault victims seriously and it's another thing to take any allegation as true from the get-go. There's a world between dismissing any claims and lynch mobs.
We have due process and presumption of innocence precisely to avoid stuff like this you know.
Phoenix944
Member
If you take what she says seriously then you assume what she's saying is the truth, and that the man is a piece of garbage. It's not supposed to go that way but that's how everyone would think.
cormack12
Gold Member
The fallout has been horrendous, honestly didn't even know if the site would come back up. GAF is such a massive place that I don't think one experience will translate to another's.
However, gaming or non-gaming there is an issue with balancing the argument. Speaking from both sides (Gaming/OT), if dissenting voices are stifled then the thread becomes a cacophony of rhetoric. And a lot of the more interesting threads became that, just empty rhetorical throwaways that eventually became terrotorial ghetto's. On the flip side, there were a lot of threads I didn't post in that I followed and I learned a huge number of things which had lively debate and healthy to-and-fro. Again, both OT and gaming.
And that's not every topic. It was just certain topics/area's that fostered this behaviour or 'dogpiling', which is probably why it became a consistent experience for those affected users. But equally, some of these users were given reams of information and statistics about complex subjects. Actual, real data to oppose their views and they refused to change it - in the light of overwhelming evidence, or at least cede the point they were arguing.
I don't know why the far-left association has become a badge to flash with pride. The issues that have embroiled the site over the past few years are far more complex than being able to stand either side of a neat dividing line. We're living in an unprecedented political era that came out of nowhere frankly. Neogaf is not a refuge for the world's greatest minds and there is equal confusion here about the political stance they ?want? to take. Also as people get older, their ideals crystallise and moderate over time, leading towards more measured and conservative views in a lot of cases. Not all views mind, but then it's impossible to hold every left belief or every right belief - just on account of how some are unworkable or no longer relevant.
The last few days has been a microcosm of the problems of Neogaf over the last couple of years and certainly the site is still showing the overspill of this since being brought back up. Battle lines were established while the full picture was still being formulated. Even now, there are opposing versions from the people involved. Both have people who can corroborate their sides apparently. But people have entrenched their selves already, choosing to die on their hills rather than climb down for a brief second and let the emotional clouds clear.
No doubt GAF will lose members, and become poorer for it. It will also lose members and become richer for it. Changes do need to be made, and a lot of moderation will be invisible to us general users (as good moderation should be), but there also needs to be visible moderation at times when the debate needs tempering to blunt the edges that develop. The ability to see a problem that is developing rather than established. If only to make a presence known and make posters aware that if they do not self moderate, then moderation may be enforced.
Having said that there will always be inconsistencies across the board. Especially in a place as diverse and large as NeoGAF. We shouldn't look at this as an opportunity to jump into the unknown. This should be an opportunity to reappraise the direction of the community and acknowledge the good and bad of it.
If the truth does out and the allegations are founded and inescapable then I'm sure the site owner and moderation team can come up with a passing of the torch and I would expect that to be the case. Certainly in terms of keeping the community alive. But I think it's too early and rash to call time. Although those who looked to quickly establish a place for people to migrate to when it was unclear if the site would return did a great job mobilising and hopefully a lot will find their way back to have an input on the new direction of this site, certainly to establish and distinguish the problems and how to solve them.
However, gaming or non-gaming there is an issue with balancing the argument. Speaking from both sides (Gaming/OT), if dissenting voices are stifled then the thread becomes a cacophony of rhetoric. And a lot of the more interesting threads became that, just empty rhetorical throwaways that eventually became terrotorial ghetto's. On the flip side, there were a lot of threads I didn't post in that I followed and I learned a huge number of things which had lively debate and healthy to-and-fro. Again, both OT and gaming.
And that's not every topic. It was just certain topics/area's that fostered this behaviour or 'dogpiling', which is probably why it became a consistent experience for those affected users. But equally, some of these users were given reams of information and statistics about complex subjects. Actual, real data to oppose their views and they refused to change it - in the light of overwhelming evidence, or at least cede the point they were arguing.
I don't know why the far-left association has become a badge to flash with pride. The issues that have embroiled the site over the past few years are far more complex than being able to stand either side of a neat dividing line. We're living in an unprecedented political era that came out of nowhere frankly. Neogaf is not a refuge for the world's greatest minds and there is equal confusion here about the political stance they ?want? to take. Also as people get older, their ideals crystallise and moderate over time, leading towards more measured and conservative views in a lot of cases. Not all views mind, but then it's impossible to hold every left belief or every right belief - just on account of how some are unworkable or no longer relevant.
The last few days has been a microcosm of the problems of Neogaf over the last couple of years and certainly the site is still showing the overspill of this since being brought back up. Battle lines were established while the full picture was still being formulated. Even now, there are opposing versions from the people involved. Both have people who can corroborate their sides apparently. But people have entrenched their selves already, choosing to die on their hills rather than climb down for a brief second and let the emotional clouds clear.
No doubt GAF will lose members, and become poorer for it. It will also lose members and become richer for it. Changes do need to be made, and a lot of moderation will be invisible to us general users (as good moderation should be), but there also needs to be visible moderation at times when the debate needs tempering to blunt the edges that develop. The ability to see a problem that is developing rather than established. If only to make a presence known and make posters aware that if they do not self moderate, then moderation may be enforced.
Having said that there will always be inconsistencies across the board. Especially in a place as diverse and large as NeoGAF. We shouldn't look at this as an opportunity to jump into the unknown. This should be an opportunity to reappraise the direction of the community and acknowledge the good and bad of it.
If the truth does out and the allegations are founded and inescapable then I'm sure the site owner and moderation team can come up with a passing of the torch and I would expect that to be the case. Certainly in terms of keeping the community alive. But I think it's too early and rash to call time. Although those who looked to quickly establish a place for people to migrate to when it was unclear if the site would return did a great job mobilising and hopefully a lot will find their way back to have an input on the new direction of this site, certainly to establish and distinguish the problems and how to solve them.
Sorry. I'm not trying to shit up the place even further, but I'd rather have my account removed.
I'd close it myself, but I'm not sure if that's possible.
psychowave
Member
No one is going to go to jail because of comments on the Internet. We're not a court of law.
cromofo
Member
Puh, this has been quite the ride.
Not sure if things couldn't have been handled better, but hindsight from an outside perspective is always 20/20. The statements from every side are out, the forum is back up - there's even outside wrap-ups to follow up on with interviews/statements from everyone.
From here on out, there seems to be an uphill battle to get the forum back on track.
I understand the decision to make moderation more anonymous to shield the moderators from outside grief and harassment. I'm not sure it's a good thing to have no more red names in threads though - it was important just to show the presence of moderation as a further incentive to keep things in order.
Maybe some more anonymous accounts like Modbot could help in that case? Just to have some accounts to write to when something comes up, like especially harsh comments or questions about a new thread in the making.
I'm 50/50 on the decision to ban political and social discussion. For the moment, it's most likely simply a hard enough job to get the forum back into an enjoyable place with all the shitposting and account suicides going on atm.
For the future, I would enjoy to read about peoples options from all over the world again.
It was nice to have a place where people from all over the world would share stories and discuss their local politics - it granted a little more perspective on the state of things.
Hopefully the forum gets back to a place where civil discussion about all things becomes possible again.
Not sure if things couldn't have been handled better, but hindsight from an outside perspective is always 20/20. The statements from every side are out, the forum is back up - there's even outside wrap-ups to follow up on with interviews/statements from everyone.
From here on out, there seems to be an uphill battle to get the forum back on track.
I understand the decision to make moderation more anonymous to shield the moderators from outside grief and harassment. I'm not sure it's a good thing to have no more red names in threads though - it was important just to show the presence of moderation as a further incentive to keep things in order.
Maybe some more anonymous accounts like Modbot could help in that case? Just to have some accounts to write to when something comes up, like especially harsh comments or questions about a new thread in the making.
I'm 50/50 on the decision to ban political and social discussion. For the moment, it's most likely simply a hard enough job to get the forum back into an enjoyable place with all the shitposting and account suicides going on atm.
For the future, I would enjoy to read about peoples options from all over the world again.
It was nice to have a place where people from all over the world would share stories and discuss their local politics - it granted a little more perspective on the state of things.
Hopefully the forum gets back to a place where civil discussion about all things becomes possible again.
This could have been easily prevented by owning up to what happened in a timely manner. All it took was saying that you misread the situation that night and are sorry. Instead you abused your power as the owner of the site and half of the staff and many regulars left.
No matter how much truth there is to the allegations your response to all of this your behavior and your posts in the past 5 years and the changes you are about to implement paint a clear picture of a narcissistic coward. I have been reading and posting here since my early adolescence up to now. Even though I am not as active anymore a part of me can't help but be disappointed by this.
Even though I am barely interested in gaming anymore I sincerely hope this place keep upholding a certain standard which makes minority groups interested in gaming feel at least more welcome to discuss here than on the rest of the GG-infested shitholes on the internet... despite its hypocrite of an owner whose behavior towards women has been questionable at the very best.
No matter how much truth there is to the allegations your response to all of this your behavior and your posts in the past 5 years and the changes you are about to implement paint a clear picture of a narcissistic coward. I have been reading and posting here since my early adolescence up to now. Even though I am not as active anymore a part of me can't help but be disappointed by this.
Even though I am barely interested in gaming anymore I sincerely hope this place keep upholding a certain standard which makes minority groups interested in gaming feel at least more welcome to discuss here than on the rest of the GG-infested shitholes on the internet... despite its hypocrite of an owner whose behavior towards women has been questionable at the very best.
SliceSabre
Banned
I just want to go on record with all this and just say I find this statement to be so poor that one has to wonder if you're making it so poor on purpose. I would say I'm disappointed but very rarely am I disappointed in people because I tend to always expect the worst so in some ways I'm not too terribly surprised about all this.
I'm not going to bother posting in a manner so that I go out in a blaze of glory, that's just not my style or the type of person I am. But I won't bother posting anymore because there is no point. The community here was fun for me, not you. But your actions, the interviews, the various accounts about it that having gone out among the gaming news sites have destroyed that community and many of those I enjoyed it with have left or decided to no longer post. Without that community here I feel there's no need for me to post on GAF any longer.
I don't pass any sort of judgment against those that choose to stay here and try to pick up the pieces or choose to got out in a blaze of glory shitting on you or posting huge anime tits.
Oh well, those on my two cents. It was fun posting here, but I've been on the internet long enough to have moved on from posting on other forums and this is just another one I'll be moving on from posting on. Later GAF.
I'm not going to bother posting in a manner so that I go out in a blaze of glory, that's just not my style or the type of person I am. But I won't bother posting anymore because there is no point. The community here was fun for me, not you. But your actions, the interviews, the various accounts about it that having gone out among the gaming news sites have destroyed that community and many of those I enjoyed it with have left or decided to no longer post. Without that community here I feel there's no need for me to post on GAF any longer.
I don't pass any sort of judgment against those that choose to stay here and try to pick up the pieces or choose to got out in a blaze of glory shitting on you or posting huge anime tits.
Oh well, those on my two cents. It was fun posting here, but I've been on the internet long enough to have moved on from posting on other forums and this is just another one I'll be moving on from posting on. Later GAF.
Care to link?
PhantomThief
Banned
User123456
Member
Having your reputation completely destroyed isn't fun either. That's why people should try to keep allegations in consideration while at the same time not taking out the pitchforks.
Rellik
Member
You do realise no one is forcing you to be here, right? The door is over there. Use it.
psychowave
Member
Sexual assault accusations don't destroy men's reputations.
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