• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Perfect Dark’s Game Director leaves The Initiative

Status
Not open for further replies.

Punished Miku

Gold Member
It shows microsoft can not manage talent only buy them.

What I think it shows is that it's hard to build new studios today during AAA development. Google and Amazon both had similar issues. Even Amy Hennig had a collapsed game under EA. Bioware couldn't scale up their B team either for Andromeda. I think what everyone has realized is that it's very difficult to build up a fully functioning team from scratch with hundreds of people, and that having that culture and experience for years is nearly irreplaceable. That's why we see a run on dev acquisitions from Tencent, MS, Sony, Embracer, and many more.

MS may have some issues, but they managed alright with the Forza teams since they have been around a long time and had a chance to build up their experience over many years. The Coalition is going okay.

It sounds like bad news for this game, but we'll just have to wait and see I guess. It does make me appreciate the small number of new studios that seem to pull it off, like Respawn. Initiative had the talent and the money, so I have no idea what the issue is honestly. 🤷‍♂️ They've certainly been given plenty of time as well.

I know you would love for this to be a specific issue at MS only, but I honestly don't think it is. This is why a functioning development studio is so attractive right now in acquisitions. MS blew it when they canned a lot of their legacy studios, and PS and Nintendo kept studios that had decades to slowly scale up pipelines and experience. It's just not something that can be replaced.
 

ckaneo

Member
Seems to me they made a big mistake hiring Cyrstal Dynamic guys to lead the projects. Those guys havent produced anything worthwhile lol

And instead of throwing these guys aside, one of which eventually left, they let them isolate themselves and bring in Crystal dynamics as more and more staff quit cause of their leadership.

The one guy left better be on path to produce a masterpiece or else Phil just needs to axe him and start over.
 
Last edited:

skit_data

Member
I don’t like that approach to be honest. There needs to be quality control across the board.

I don’t want to see a repeat of last generation
In my opinion it would be a total catastrophy for gaming in general since they have now bought some of the biggest publishers in gaming. But since those publishers already had somewhat of a good QC it will hopefully result in it rubbing of on XGS rather than the other way round, hopefully.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Think you are reading into the article something that isn't there.


Everyone is buying companies cause hiring has become a pain btw, it's not just Sony or Microsoft. Google did it on the Cloud Security front with Medient or however you spell it.

Here's the thing the amount of money Microsoft has spent on Bethesda and Activision is almost combined 80 Billion. That's insane. And for google and the likes they are not already established Gaming Divisions so their purchase to buy infrastructure to actually be a competitive player is a different thing entirely. It's not like Microsoft is starting out to get into gaming, so they need to buy studios.

They for an entire gen lost studios, lost projects constantly, and even in their green days with Xbox they kept putting teams on dead hardware like Kinect instead of letting them make what they wanted to make. Or if the studio had issues which at the time of 360 era for Lionhead was Peter Molynux, get him out replace him and let Lion head make their vision for fable or a new IP. Instead they made them make a Fable MOBA game which they themselves were on record saying they had no clue how to make. WHich is why Microsoft shut them down.


Sorry, but you are seeing what everyone gets dog piled for talking about. Even Jaffe sees this stuff and he loves Gamepass. Writing is on the wall that Microsoft is buying their way into their vision and in doing so there is collateral damage either that be already established internal studios, or new start up studios like Initiative. How do you expect to manage that many?

A/B and Bethesda are safe because their infrastructure/Culture is already there, nothing for them changes. But trying to build new teams/studios or revamp old ones to fit your vision is going to have negative effects if you never fixed your internal issues within your Division in how you approach studio/Project culture and grow it.
 
lol 😂 same people complaining that Microsoft needed to give studios resources and leave them alone now that they do that people are complaining that there isn’t enough meddling? Wtf Lmaoo you guys don’t even know what you want to be outraged about. Have any of you even seen this game to be this upset? Hopefully crystal dynamics made it third person.
 

tmlDan

Member
And I was right, people always think its nothing but it was pretty obvious they're in shambles.

A tiny studio doing something new and having a 3rd party co-develop - that was already weird and people thought it was a good idea on these very boards.

Really losing hope in Perfect Dark tbh.
 
lol 😂 same people complaining that Microsoft needed to give studios resources and leave them alone now that they do that people are complaining that there isn’t enough meddling? Wtf Lmaoo you guys don’t even know what you want to be outraged about. Have any of you even seen this game to be this upset? Hopefully crystal dynamics made it third person.

There's giving studio's creative freedom then there's just bad managment

It's not specifically a MS issue either. Same bad managment is why Sony's Manchester Studio closed down
 

Papacheeks

Banned
lol 😂 same people complaining that Microsoft needed to give studios resources and leave them alone now that they do that people are complaining that there isn’t enough meddling? Wtf Lmaoo you guys don’t even know what you want to be outraged about. Have any of you even seen this game to be this upset? Hopefully crystal dynamics made it third person.

Microsoft is bad at managing studios. 343i, coalition, RARE, now Initiative. Coalition has made games, and been a support studio when needed. But I would argue losing Rod was not a good sign of where to take IP's like Gears.


I fear this wont be the last article about a Xbox managed studio unfortunately.
 
Last edited:
This game about to suck. But I didn’t really care much for it anyway. Gimmie the rpgs, after I learned crystal dynamics was working on it I lost interest.
 
I don’t like that approach to be honest. There needs to be quality control across the board.

I don’t want to see a repeat of last generation
Agreed, Xbox game studios need a consistent quality across the board which they don’t have. You might get a technical mess or a technical gem. For my problems with Sony games you know they’ll at least have the Sony polish first and foremost.
 

NickFire

Member
MS needs to approach game development more like they approached the Activision purchase. Leading up to the purchase they paid lip service to the scandal, pretending they cared, but really just did their thing and bought the pub when they felt the time was right to strike. It doesn’t feel the same on game development though. They seem more concerned with public image than holding teams to expectations. Halo is a perfect example. If managed properly that would have been a launch game that everyone was dying to play when the only console available to buy was Series S. It would have been a game changer for MS market share if done right IMO, but instead came out a year late and still seems to be in development months after release. Sorry not sorry, but the opportunity should have lead to as much crunch as was needed to make that a proper launch game. Throw time and a half or double pay at the most important people to get them to agree. and replace those who did not. A solid Halo launch game put them on the map with OG Xbox, and 343 blew the chance for a solid Halo launch game to reset the mind set of people as to where the best games were. This ain’t a knock against Halo the game, and strictly Applies to the blown opportunity to have that game launch with Series S / X.
 

Topher

Gold Member
lol 😂 same people complaining that Microsoft needed to give studios resources and leave them alone now that they do that people are complaining that there isn’t enough meddling? Wtf Lmaoo you guys don’t even know what you want to be outraged about. Have any of you even seen this game to be this upset? Hopefully crystal dynamics made it third person.

What "same people"? The people expressing concern over Microsoft's hands off approach to all this are the devs who left the studio. It is in the article:

"As a result, it’s claimed that development has progressed “painfully” slow and a solid company culture never formed. All former employees VGC spoke to said they were surprised at how lenient Microsoft had been over the lack of progress."
 
Last edited:

Punished Miku

Gold Member
What "same people"? The people expressing concern over Microsoft's hands off approach to all this are the devs who left the studio.
And this approach from them is a counter to their flawed late 360 strategy when they dictated what Rare and Lionhead made, and it broke the studios. Now they're not dictating it and it's breaking the new studios lol. It is ironic.
 
Agreed, Xbox game studios need a consistent quality across the board which they don’t have. You might get a technical mess or a technical gem. For my problems with Sony games you know they’ll at least have the Sony polish first and foremost.

I don’t mean to bring system wars into it but if you read up on God of War 2018 development then there’s the difference right there. They have people in place to oversee and make the necessary changes. Who is that at Xbox?

It feels like Gamepass is the one thing people can hold up to as a saving grace really. I also think the likes of Playground, Coalition and the Flight Simulator teams have done Xbox proud. The rest?

I don’t want a repeat of Xbox One, people saying everything is fine and Spencer and co can’t do no wrong when it’s comfortably the worst Xbox generation. I want them to be brilliant, them and Sony bringing the bangers competing for our time and money. We as gamers benefit .
 

Lognor

Banned
Sounds like Darrell Gallagher is letting Crystal Dynamics take over the game and many of The Initiative leads are not very happy about it.
Yeah, maybe the game was in trouble under The Initiative and that's what Crystal Dynamics was brought in. And now Microsoft has been more impressed with CD so the game is shifting to their lead more and more. I like the Tomb Raider games so I'm not too concerned at this point. The game is still YEARS off so they have time to right the ship. This story seems eerily similar to Metroid Prime 4, and I'm still confident that game will turn out well.
 

Interfectum

Member


You can't hire all-star talent in a brand new studio and then put only a couple people in charge. It will implode. MS should know this. They are attempting to create their own Valve or whatever in-house and it doesn't happen this fast.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Sorry, but you are seeing what everyone gets dog piled for talking about. Even Jaffe sees this stuff and he loves Gamepass. Writing is on the wall that Microsoft is buying their way into their vision and in doing so there is collateral damage either that be already established internal studios, or new start up studios like Initiative.
MS management style has historically been too strict and now its too lax with studio's that would benefit from more restrictions, yes its shit and problematic to microsoft gaming and people whom don't yet get enough value out of their first party games (personally idgaf cause i spend 90% of my time on 3rd party games and mostly indies). I don't think buying studio's is cause the harm at the likes of 343 or Rare.

Is your argument is that having more studio's is allowing the likes of 343 or Rare upper management to take their foot off the pedal and thats harming the quality of the game?

I think the coalition is fine but their games have never interested me.
 
I don’t mean to bring system wars into it but if you read up on God of War 2018 development then there’s the difference right there. They have people in place to oversee and make the necessary changes. Who is that at Xbox?

It feels like Gamepass is the one thing people can hold up to as a saving grace really. I also think the likes of Playground, Coalition and the Flight Simulator teams have done Xbox proud. The rest?

I don’t want a repeat of Xbox One, people saying everything is fine and Spencer and co can’t do no wrong when it’s comfortably the worst Xbox generation. I want them to be brilliant, them and Sony bringing the bangers competing for our time and money. We as gamers benefit .
I feel people are being a bit hyperbolic since she have been hitting lately. We have 0 chance of another Xbox one situation because Xbox has been releasing good games at a steady rate. Even if at worse perfect dark isn’t a 9 but a 82 or 79 you expect starfield , avowed, fable, Motorsport, the coalitions new ip to all fail? This situation seems to be a combination of struggles of starting a new studio and MS bring too hands off but on the flip side it seems to work for other studios. Being hands off does seem to have its benefits because you allow more freedom to artist. But your quality control will be more unpredictable.
 

Topher

Gold Member
And this approach from them is a counter to their flawed late 360 strategy when they dictated what Rare and Lionhead made, and it broke the studios. Now they're not dictating it and it's breaking the new studios lol. It is ironic.

Same with the Phantom Dust reboot. MS management was overbearing and effectively killed the game. And now this seems like they are going to the other extreme.
 

Ristifer

Member
I want to be optimistic about this because a new Perfect Dark is something I've been begging for, but it feels like the writing is on the wall here. However, I would love for this to surprise me someday and turn out to be amazing.
 
I feel people are being a bit hyperbolic since she have been hitting lately. We have 0 chance of another Xbox one situation because Xbox has been releasing good games at a steady rate. Even if at worse perfect dark isn’t a 9 but a 82 or 79 you expect starfield , avowed, fable, Motorsport, the coalitions new ip to all fail? This situation seems to be a combination of struggles of starting a new studio and MS bring too hands off but on the flip side it seems to work for other studios. Being hands off does seem to have its benefits because you allow more freedom to artist. But your quality control will be more unpredictable.

It wasn’t my intention to be hyperbolic. I simply don’t want a repeat of last generation. That was a disgrace and people still praised them which I found bemusing as a Xbox fan.

I want them to match Sony first party, both bringing the great stuff. I don’t want to see a narrative of anything negative being obnoxiously dismissed like last generation with terms like “wait till E3” “Yeah but gamepass” and stuff like “ Yeah but another Forza is coming “

Basically I want them to bring their Zero Dawn, their Last of Us, the next Mass Effect style game. New things that have substantial impact and buzz.

With all the studios now I really hope that happens.
 
Last edited:

Papacheeks

Banned
MS management style has historically been too strict and now its too lax with studio's that would benefit from more restrictions, yes its shit and problematic to microsoft gaming and people whom don't yet get enough value out of their first party games (personally idgaf cause i spend 90% of my time on 3rd party games and mostly indies). I don't think buying studio's is cause the harm at the likes of 343 or Rare.

Is your argument is that having more studio's is allowing the likes of 343 or Rare upper management to take their foot off the pedal and thats harming the quality of the game?

I think the coalition is fine but their games have never interested me.

You didn't read what i said. Microsoft's "culture" around studios and their outlook/style of how they manage are the issue. If your outlook and approach to a gaming division is dictated and run by Enterprise people and not those in entertainment then this is what you get. Which is inconsistency's with an Entire Division.

It's been their issue since beginning of 360 days after original people who made xbox all left. They were replaced by mostly software enterprise people to run XBox products/Division.

After XBox live took off, Enterprise literally got their hands around what was XBox culture and turned it into what it over time became today. XBox to me doesn't have a true identity and didn't during xbox one, but had somewhat of a identity based mostly on just the technology behind playing online.
Online/services became their focus immediately after Xbox 360 took off. Notice how fast they had a store up and running and had where you could buy DLC/Content/then later arcade titles within first year.

They use to be the new edgy sega back in early xbox days. But that was because of the team behind it. The issue isn't that they are too lax, thats fine when your culture throughout your tenure has been pretty straight forward with how you direct your studios. issues is because of all the changing hands from different parts of the company that were from enterprise and them chasing the next new thing instead of concentrating on games and how you play them.

Which was xbox's MO in early days.

When you have too much inconsistancy's in your higher ups leading a division and changing to extremes over the course of many gens, how do you think that reflects on studios and culture? if the culture was simple like old Xbox's MO with people only worried about making a game people can play instead of thinking how they can utilize the cloud(crackdown 3) utilize net AI, and advanced systems for calculations(RARE), their studios would just be making games and not influenced by big company that adds new delivery system or new Azure servers to make online matchmaking better.


I have zero faith in internal teams Microsoft manages outside of Playground Games.
 
I'm gonna guess 2026 at the earliest lol.
Aging Matt Damon GIF
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
You didn't read what i said. Microsoft's "culture" around studios and their outlook/style of how they manage are the issue. If your outlook and approach to a gaming division is dictated and run by Enterprise people and not those in entertainment then this is what you get. Which is inconsistency's with an Entire Division.

It's been their issue since beginning of 360 days after original people who made xbox all left. They were replaced by mostly software enterprise people to run XBox products/Division.

After XBox live took off, Enterprise literally got their hands around what was XBox culture and turned it into what it over time became today. XBox to me doesn't have a true identity and didn't during xbox one, but had somewhat of a identity based mostly on just the technology behind playing online.
Online/services became their focus immediately after Xbox 360 took off. Notice how fast they had a store up and running and had where you could buy DLC/Content/then later arcade titles within first year.

They use to be the new edgy sega back in early xbox days. But that was because of the team behind it. The issue isn't that they are too lax, thats fine when your culture throughout your tenure has been pretty straight forward with how you direct your studios. issues is because of all the changing hands from different parts of the company that were from enterprise and them chasing the next new thing instead of concentrating on games and how you play them.

Which was xbox's MO in early days.

When you have too much inconsistancy's in your higher ups leading a division and changing to extremes over the course of many gens, how do you think that reflects on studios and culture? if the culture was simple like old Xbox's MO with people only worried about making a game people can play instead of thinking how they can utilize the cloud(crackdown 3) utilize net AI, and advanced systems for calculations(RARE), their studios would just be making games and not influenced by big company that adds new delivery system or new Azure servers to make online matchmaking better.


I have zero faith in internal teams Microsoft manages outside of Playground Games.
I think you've got a story you want to tell, and you're working backwards from there.

I watched that Xbox documentary and it looked like the OG Xbox guys held the system together on stage with duct tape. Halo was at E3 at 10 fps, and was a mess until the day it launched. All the Xbox "management" did at that point was demand that it be ready at system launch, and then cross their fingers. They didn't really have any other first party games, and the rest was all exclusives they paid for. They famously passed on GTA III though.

During 360, they innovated on services really well. Live, arcade, DLC marketing. They're innovating on services now as well with cloud and Gamepass.

Mattrick era was rough, but that was a different era and different people run the division now with different approaches. Everyone condemned their management style during that time.
 

Plantoid

Member
Why are people acting like crystal dinamics is shit? I love the new tomb raider games, of course they aren't GOTY material but it doesn't matter, 99% of games aren't GOTY material either, it has good graphics/animations, passable history, good enough shooting, nice puzzles
 
Last edited:

Umbasaborne

Banned
Sounds like aliens colonial marines to me, advertise the project as your own, then outsource the entire development. Ill make an avatar bet that this never comes out
 

onQ123

Member
So a bunch of people who left studios to work at a new studio left the new studio?


I don't think it's Microsoft fault
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom