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Winter 2012 Anime Thread 2.22: You Can (Not) Outpost Cajunator

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duckroll

Member
Well, that's fine. In that case we have no idea what those series are considered until someone provides valid polling data on how they are viewed by the majority of people.

I said the majority of people buying them though. The question is, was there ever any outrage from consumers that what was being advertised and sold as anime was in fact... not anime? That's the question I'm asking here. The collection is even named ANIMATRIX. So it's not like they were trying to be coy about it. It was directly marketed and sold as a collection of anime shorts based on the Matrix universe. I would say it is a reasonable conclusion that most people accept it for what it is. Which is why we had other similar attempts by Warner Brothers in releasing collections like Batman: Gotham Knight and Halo Legends.

Are you really going to deny that people collectively reject these as anime? Because that's the entire appeal of such collections - western properties being tackled by Japanese anime creators. But they are still controlled and produced by an American company.
 

Branduil

Member
I said the majority of people buying them though. The question is, was there ever any outrage from consumers that what was being advertised and sold as anime was in fact... not anime? That's the question I'm asking here. The collection is even named ANIMATRIX. So it's not like they were trying to be coy about it. It was directly marketed and sold as a collection of anime shorts based on the Matrix universe. I would say it is a reasonable conclusion that most people accept it for what it is. Which is why we had other similar attempts by Warner Brothers in releasing collections like Batman: Gotham Knight and Halo Legends.

Are you really going to deny that people collectively reject these as anime? Because that's the entire appeal of such collections - western properties being tackled by Japanese anime creators. But they are still controlled and produced by an American company.

So what you're saying is you don't have that polling data.

I mean, you can't be incredibly pedantic about someone's definition of anime and expect them not to reply in kind. It's also a reasonable conclusion that most people would agree that anime is animation produced in and for Japan as well, but that didn't stop you from arguing about it. Exceptions don't necessarily disprove the rules.
 

Dynedom

Member
Another One Bites The Dust - 12 (End)

Hrm, so
the people under the chandelier survived, except for that one guy who chose to run, right? That ended up being a bit too funny, lol. Guess it saves him right for not even attempting to help the others, lol. II know they didn't really show one of the other girls but I'm guessing she's alive too.

Also, we never found out what happened to the kendo club guy. Did he get taken to safety or what? Is that him at the end of the episode, in the hospital? It must be, considering where his bandages are.

lol @ Chibiki trying to prevent Akazawa from killing Kazami only for him to die from her headshot anyway. Kazami living would have been a bit much, considering he was killing indiscriminately but I guess they could play the insanity sympathy card there. That seemed out of left field but I didn't expect him to take being nearly killed well.

I dunno. I guess the asthma guy lived too?

On a related note: Nooooooo Akazawa. :(

Also, maybe I'm a wuss but seeing Reiko squirming helplessly under the rubble about to be killed was pretty hard to watch. :(

Overall, a decent distraction but I think the series some of the more "artistic" merits once it went full-on Final Destination mode.
 

7Th

Member
Animation made in Japan is anime; how can such a clear-cut definition be so controversial? Korra isn't even outsourced to Japan!
 

Dynedom

Member
Didn't I have this anime definition discussion with Jexhius 2 seasons ago?

Pretty sure it's the same participants all over again in addition to whoever instigated it this time.
 

Articalys

Member
Ano Natsu de Matteru 12 (END)

So yeah, I'd say that was a pretty good finale.
MIB Remon kicking ass, the entire agency showing up to defend everyone, that scene on the train, the memory recording, eveyone watching the film, using the full version of Vidro Moyou as the ending song, and finally the offscreen revelation that Ichika found a way to return to Earth
. Easily my favorite series from this season.

edit: Okay, in retrospect,
leaving everyone's relationships unresolved except for Kaito/Ichika (and even that was only implied to be resolved since she returned offscreen)
was a tad disappointing, but not so much to affect my overall enjoyment of the show.
 

Branduil

Member
Animation made in Japan is anime; how can such a clear-cut definition be so controversial? Korra isn't even outsourced to Japan!

Probably because anime is often not made exclusively in Japan. I prefer defining it as produced in Japan rather than made, though as duckroll shows, every definition can be argued against. But I think "produced in Japan, for Japan" is a succinct and workable definition even if a few exceptions exist.
 

Cwarrior

Member
The amount of anime that gets outsourced to South Korea isn't as big as you would think.
Toei outsources to Philippines, after all!

is it outsourceing when it's part of your company ?
Toei animation Philippines = TAP(maybe it meant stand for cheap like tap water?)
 

duckroll

Member
So what you're saying is you don't have that polling data.

I mean, you can't be incredibly pedantic about someone's definition of anime and expect them not to reply in kind. It's also a reasonable conclusion that most people would agree that anime is animation produced in and for Japan as well, but that didn't stop you from arguing about it. Exceptions don't necessarily disprove the rules.

Well let's do a quick poll of places which cover Wonderful Days/Sky Blue under "anime":
http://www.absoluteanime.com/sky_blue/index.htm
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=568
http://canime.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/wonderful-days-anime-review/
http://psgels.net/2007/08/14/wonderful-days-review-76100/
http://movies.ign.com/articles/573/573967p1.html
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=2536
http://myanimelist.net/anime/548
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46iTeXkf2-U

I think there's reasonable argument that many people see anime as an art style rather than something specifically Japanese in origin. I would even further suggest that to most of the masses they wouldn't even pay attention to details like the actual country something is produced or animated in specifically, as opposed to how it looks and how similar it is to something else they are familiar with which looks the same.
 

Jex

Member
So yeah, I think we have reached a point where "anime" basically just means anything which looks like what a lay person would think anime looks like. If that's the case, then Avatar probably qualifies. But that just shows how silly all these definitions are to begin with.

That really doesn't make any sense, because then "anime" would then include stuff that looks Japanese but isn't made there (Wakfu, even if Japanese people worked on it!) and stuff that looks Western but originated in Japan (Kaiba, Bebop). So yeah, I don't think that holds.

I suppose I'd ask "where it the majority of the creative control for the production of this series?"
 

duckroll

Member
That really doesn't make any sense, because then "anime" would then include stuff that looks Japanese but isn't made there (Wakfu, even if Japanese people worked on it!) and stuff that looks Western but originated in Japan (Kaiba, Bebop). So yeah, I don't think that holds.

I suppose I'd ask "where it the majority of the creative control for the production of this series?"

It doesn't have to make sense. Anime is such a generic term thrown around in western pop culture that with enough misuse it just comes to mean "that kinda japawacky asian cartoon shit". Blame the Americans I guess?
 

Branduil

Member
Well let's do a quick poll of places which cover Wonderful Days/Sky Blue under "anime":
http://www.absoluteanime.com/sky_blue/index.htm
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=568
http://canime.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/wonderful-days-anime-review/
http://psgels.net/2007/08/14/wonderful-days-review-76100/
http://movies.ign.com/articles/573/573967p1.html
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=2536
http://myanimelist.net/anime/548
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46iTeXkf2-U

I think there's reasonable argument that many people see anime as an art style rather than something specifically Japanese in origin. I would even further suggest that to most of the masses they wouldn't even pay attention to details like the actual country something is produced or animated in specifically, as opposed to how it looks and how similar it is to something else they are familiar with which looks the same.

I think there's reasonable argument that many uninformed people see anime as an art style. My view is that basing definitions off of what people who would be admittedly ignorant of its origin think is a poor method for defining terms that are actually supposed to mean something.

I mean, your definition would functionally amount to "anime is something that looks like anime," or more basically, "anime is anime." I'm not a fan of tautological definitions.
 

cajunator

Banned
That really doesn't make any sense, because then "anime" would then include stuff that looks Japanese but isn't made there (Wakfu, even if Japanese people worked on it!) and stuff that looks Western but originated in Japan (Kaiba, Bebop). So yeah, I don't think that holds.

I suppose I'd ask "where it the majority of the creative control for the production of this series?"

Thats pretty much how I determine it myself.

"Which country thought this shit up in the first place?"
Im talking about individual series here.
 

Jex

Member
Well let's do a quick poll of places which cover Wonderful Days/Sky Blue under "anime":
I think there's reasonable argument that many people see anime as an art style rather than something specifically Japanese in origin. I would even further suggest that to most of the masses they wouldn't even pay attention to details like the actual country something is produced or animated in specifically, as opposed to how it looks and how similar it is to something else they are familiar with which looks the same.

I don't thing rounding up a bunch of people of questionable sources and then moving forward with a definition based on their ignorance is a great way to move forward.

Are you really citing youtube videos? You might as well cite youtube comments.
It doesn't have to make sense. Anime is such a generic term thrown around in western pop culture that with enough misuse it just comes to mean "that kinda japawacky asian cartoon shit". Blame the Americans I guess?
I don't enough people have misused the term for it to simply mean "whatever people are calling anime these days".
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Only someone Japanese would make something like Kaiba.
 

duckroll

Member
I think there's reasonable argument that many uninformed people see anime as an art style. My view is that basing definitions off of what people who would be admittedly ignorant of its origin think is a poor method for defining terms that are actually supposed to mean something.

I mean, your definition would functionally amount to "anime is something that looks like anime," or more basically, "anime is anime." I'm not a fan of tautological definitions.

You never actually asked my personal definition of anime. I would stick with the Japanese origin of the word, which is animation. It's all the same to me. Works for the Japanese, works for me.

I'm simply arguing that there exists out there other definitions of anime than your own, and there is nothing particularly definitive about it.

Since you're such a fan of Wikipedia, let's see what Wikipedia has to say about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

Anime is the Japanese abbreviated pronunciation of "animation." In English-speaking countries, anime refers to a style of animation originating in Japan, characterized by colorful graphics and often featuring themes intended for an adult audience. The intended meaning of the word 'anime' sometimes varies, depending on the context.

LOL? LULZ? ROFLCOPTER? Again, I'm not saying Wikipedia is definitive, but you DID bring them up earlier.
 

Branduil

Member
Friends don't let friends let Yui define words.

imqSU5Vc9AIP1.jpg


You never actually asked my personal definition of anime. I would stick with the Japanese origin of the word, which is animation. It's all the same to me. Works for the Japanese, works for me.

I'm simply arguing that there exists out there other definitions of anime than your own, and there is nothing particularly definitive about it.

I disagree. An informed opinion counts more than an uninformed one.

Since you're such a fan of Wikipedia, let's see what Wikipedia has to say about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

LOL? LULZ? ROFLCOPTER? Again, I'm not saying Wikipedia is definitive, but you DID bring them up earlier.

I only brought up Wikipedia because of your claim that certain series were viewed by everyone as anime. My mistake, I shouldn't have indulged your sophism.
 

Jex

Member
I clearly should have been here earlier. I argued about this last May, so I would have known never to touch Wikipedia with a ten-foot barge pole. Most of these 'definitions' are rubbish. I mean, is this:

"a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality. "

any more helpful? Clearly not.

Apparently we just want to get to 20,000 even faster than ever.
 

duckroll

Member
The biggest kick I'm getting out of this is that Jexhius is wasting his time with this "argument" instead of seeing the glorious trailer hidden away several pages back. :D
 

Ultimadrago

Member
The biggest kick I'm getting out of this is that Jexhius is wasting his time with this "argument" instead of seeing the glorious trailer hidden away several pages back. :D

He seems to do a collapsing motion on comment responses replying to both past and present simultaneously.

Just give 'im some time.
 

Jex

Member
The biggest kick I'm getting out of this is that Jexhius is wasting his time with this "argument" instead of seeing the glorious trailer hidden away several pages back. :D

I'm still reeling from the fact that it isn't a standard anime trailer - e.g. a bunch of clips from the pilot episode hastily edited together with some music slapped on top. It's rare to see actual effort invested in something like this.
 
I'm still reeling from the fact that it isn't a standard anime trailer - e.g. a bunch of clips from the pilot episode hastily edited together with some music slapped on top. It's rare to see actual effort invested in something like this.

I know! Has there ever been another anime trailer like it?
 

-Minsc-

Member
It's far more than the protagonist simply being female.

Her family dynamic - she assumes the role of protector and provider, mother/nurturer for her sister after their actual mother falls into depression. She assumes the role again when she encounters Rue.

The harem of male figures that coalesce around her in varying roles - the lover back home, the secret admirer, the mentor/father figure, the confidant/support.

Gender roles in the romance arc - The male is incapacitated and the female has to go for help. The male is held hostage and the female has to save him. The male is emotionally conflicted, scared, and unstable , and the female is focused, collected, driven, and strong.


These kinds of qualities are characteristic to a more female oriented, female-targeted, female-centric audience, typical of your standard shoujo style story. That is NOT to say it cannot be appealing to everyone, because it absolutely can, and is, but there are many things about the narrative that are designed to speak specifically to the teenage female crowd.

I'll concede on that point. The Hunger Games can be compared to Twelve Kingdoms (see how I brilliantly bring this back on the topic of anime) in that both are targeted to female audiences while have high appeal to the male crowd. In both THG and Twelve Kingdoms cases, their screen adaptations may have been produced with more male appeal than the original sources.

Now, I'll bring up Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit. It pretty much has everything you mentioned in some form yet is the complete opposite side of the coin. No matter how much I look at, I can not view it as shoujo. While there may not be a big romance, Balsa's relationship her male companion is portrayed with her as the stronger and him as the weaker.
 

Branduil

Member
I'm still reeling from the fact that it isn't a standard anime trailer - e.g. a bunch of clips from the pilot episode hastily edited together with some music slapped on top. It's rare to see actual effort invested in something like this.

On the other hand, a cynical take could be that they're running behind the production schedule and it's not a bunch of clips because they weren't finished yet.
 

BluWacky

Member
On the other hand, a cynical take could be that they're running behind the production schedule and it's not a bunch of clips because they weren't finished yet.

That was what I was thinking. But that's some stylish CG lettering and filters they've got going on there. Someone put effort into that PV even if there is worryingly little animation on show.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Ano Natsu de Matteru 12 END:

Remon is a fucking badass! And so is
her van!
Kanna continues to
run from the stalker probe of death only to be bailed out by Manami, who says her husband told her to be there? Does he know something? Well whatever, that's how Kanna gets away from the probe.
Meanwhile Tetsuro and Mio continue on their road as well. Ichika and Kaito make for the
unmarked location, but are found by yet another probe (fuck those things are annoying!!). So of course she trips and Ichika's sister has to intervene to save them.

While we're at it, add Rinon to the badass list. Jesus, Ichika
don't talk about the others like they're dead! >>; Kaito assures Ichika and wonders if everything were to work out if he'd be allowed to visit her planet someday. D'aaaaaw, they're cute, I have to admit. The dialogue here is super cheesy but I don't care. I understand that they've gotta get it out of their system just in case this doesn't end well.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Remon
MIB FUCKING CONFIRMED!! XD AND SO IS MANAMI'S HUSBAND!! XD!!! FUCKING ACE!! That certainly would explain the marriage problems, he's probably never around 'cause he's MIB! XD

And then finally... Ichika and Kaito
find the place in her memory.
As they go to find the
evidence, the evidence decides to find them instead! How very nice of it! It does some lighty thing and breaks, taking Ichika and Kaito into her vision (her cells were used to heal him so it affects Kaito too). But the true evidence has long since disappeared, and Ichika is taken in a rather well done scene that I admit, I teared up a little. This whole sequence had some fantastic imagery right up to the eye catch.

I guess Tetsuro's fate's going to be ambiguous? Laaaaame. You were all set up with Mio, and even Kanna's encouraging it! Just do it, Tetsu! Oh well. Kaito's sister comes home with a souvenir for Ichika, so we can have a little dramatic moment. ^^ Remon tells the others she's transferring and leaves them the film she took before pulling a Batman.

The others gather at Kaito's house to
watch the movie. I LOVE how it looks like a poorly edited movie from an older camera! ^^; And I love how it has all the "extra" footage! XD Fuckin' ace! Awwww, poor Kaito. I feel for ya dude. Totally feel for ya. But you know they're going to squeeze in a happy end at the VERY END because this is what anime does.

Yep, I called it!

Great end! I loved this show from start to finish! ^_^
 
On the other hand, a cynical take could be that they're running behind the production schedule and it's not a bunch of clips because they weren't finished yet.

Trailers like that usually end up being text on black screens and maybe one or two stills, not a carefully constructed baroque short.
 

Instro

Member
KoikeLupin PV is up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om_UdToxqqE

Like with all KoikeLupin anything, there is a NIPPLE shot because of the key visual. So NSFW!

Pretty excellent trailer really, looks like some actual time went into making it which is interesting. I assume this is the trailer that japanese bloggers were supposedly shitting on last week, lol.

I didn't realize Accel World was on the sakuga watch list. What would be the reason for this? Personally, I'd expect more out of Zetman.

The PV I saw the other week looked pretty impressive visually. I think I got laughed at when I brought it up in the irc though!
 
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