amstradcpc
Member
heat your F5 guys!.
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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
VTEC ready to kicketh yo!
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
Is it comin in 5 mins?
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
It's their last article? BOO!
maquiladora
Member
Hyped.
Anyone see the new GOW commercial at the end it says only available on Playstation instead of PS3 wonder if that is a sign of things to come. Its almost like saying yeah you can play this on Ps3 or Ps4 or PsX. Might be reading too much into it but I picked up on the difference in marketing right away
why? its only 7 a.m (PST).
Manmademan
Member
And again, I disagree. I used journey, flower, etc as examples, but there is a lot of content on PSN that does not fit into neat categories.
Is a PS2 classic a "ps3" game? is it correct to expect those not to work when I get a ps4? They won't run without ps3 compatibility.
There's also a giant section of games marked "PSN games" that you might have missed. it's labeled separately from "Ps3 disc based games" and "ps3 games." Is it fair that the expectation is that these will only work on PS3?
What about neo-geo titles? sega classics? These aren't ps3 games either.
Is it possible that sony could just not bother to make PSN fully compatible? sure. But my argument is that financially it makes little sense. It confuses the customer (and there WILL be outrage if 100% or damn close to it of PSN content doesn't work on ps4, i'd risk a ban on it), sony loses money, and the customer loses incentive to buy into ps+. From a developer perspective, PS3 and PS4 versions of downloadable titles will have to be produced. Two separate copies of PS2 classics will have to be made- one that runs on the PS3, one that runs on the PS4.
Does it make sense to dedicate resources to a PS4 copy of a game when the install base is low? What about when the PS3 is approaching EOL? from the customer perspective, "mad dog mccree" is just a downloadable title- theres no reason he should have access to it on one system, but not another.
It doesn't make sense.
I guess they mean "latest"
amstradcpc
Member
Then hurry and wake up!. Today only coffee for breakfast!.
Latest leak from Vgleaks was at 4:00 PM GMT+1.
Probably not, Sony has been putting "Only on PlayStation" on their exclusives for a long time.
Is the leak supposed to come out soon? Because then I'll start studying later and grab some popcorn.
metareferential
Member
JonathanPower
Member
I really hope so, it would make the PS4 a monster.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Not saying that can't be done. I'd suggest it is way more effort for Sony to do software emulation than even including the whole chipset.(Or whatever is technically needed for 95%+ BC)
I'd think software emulation would take a lot of manpower for not a lot of reward IMO.
It will be interesting if BC is mentioned when the console is revealed.
H_Prestige
Banned
PS2 classics are PS2 games. They do not depend on PS3 BC, rather on Sony's ability to create a PS2 emulator for PS4.
shinobi602
Member
No point in publishing more "leaks" when we'll hear about both consoles within a month or 2 =D
phosphor112
Banned
Sorry, I meant you don't have to worry about one. Their patent covers that. It's very similar to the SpursEngine, but very different in key areas.
Or they have everything we want to know : name + design + games for both consoles. :roll:
Zoe
Member
They will magically stop working if I want to put my account on my PS4 and my friend's PS4.
'PSN' games are just a category to show digital only games. Within there, you can still get vita or PS3 games, it doesn't make any statement as to what platform it runs on.
PS2 games are already emulated, so you don't need a PS3 to run them, you could just produce a PS2 emulator for the PS4.
phosphor112
Banned
In the DF article it mentions the following:
"Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations - physics calculations are a good example of traditional CPU work that are often hived off to GPU cores."
If it really is "paired up" to the CPU, then it confirms a theory that Jeff_Rigby has had for several months.
Reading a 2010 patent by Sony (http://www.google.com/patents/US20100312969) shows a chip that resembles Toshiba's "SpursEngine." In this patent, they detail a "Processing Element" (PE) that contains 1 PPU and 4 SPE's. In short, "half of a Cell."
The interesting thing about this patent, is that this PE can be hooked up to as many as one pleases. Hooking two together will create a "Cell equivalent." Now, one might ask, how much would that cost?" If integrated into the Jaguar APU, very little.
How? AMD Crossbar Switch.
The AMD solution currently rumored in the Orbis would have 4 "slots" on the crossbar to integrate their chips. As of current, Orbis has 8 Jaguar cores. There are 4 cores per Jaguar module. That means 2 slots take up the Crossbar, leaving 2 more opened. Just enough for two PE's. 8 Jaguar cores total with 2 PPU's and 8 SPU's.
Another possible configuration that Jeff mentions is 4 Steamroller cores (as 2 comes in each module), with the additional 2 PE's attached, but I digress.
In the patent there is this quote.
"The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."
This fits in-line perfectly with AMD's solution.
To further solidify this theory, we take a look at this quote:
"The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."
This allows any implementation of memory as the engineers see fit. Sony is no longer tied down to the use of XDR ram for these PE's. The GDDR5 bandwidth would satisfy the needs of the SPE's to make sure they aren't data starved.
What does this all mean?
This means several things:
Backwards compatibility is within reach, adding the two PE's will create an environment where they can emulate the Cell. The RSX can be emulated by the GPU, and the GDDR5 bandwidth is sufficient.
PS4 functions: As they mentioned in the article, it will take "GPU-like" functions. Why use the SPE's over conventional GPU cores? SPE's are much faster. They tackle GPU tasks in a CPU manner. Low core count, high speed. These functions include DSP, a feature that Sony has yet to address in the Orbis, physics tasks, and video processing (encoding/decoding). They can add all these features to the Orbis without having the GPU take a hit and sacrificing GPU tasks.
"Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations - physics calculations are a good example of traditional CPU work that are often hived off to GPU cores."
If it really is "paired up" to the CPU, then it confirms a theory that Jeff_Rigby has had for several months.
Reading a 2010 patent by Sony (http://www.google.com/patents/US20100312969) shows a chip that resembles Toshiba's "SpursEngine." In this patent, they detail a "Processing Element" (PE) that contains 1 PPU and 4 SPE's. In short, "half of a Cell."
The interesting thing about this patent, is that this PE can be hooked up to as many as one pleases. Hooking two together will create a "Cell equivalent." Now, one might ask, how much would that cost?" If integrated into the Jaguar APU, very little.
How? AMD Crossbar Switch.
The AMD solution currently rumored in the Orbis would have 4 "slots" on the crossbar to integrate their chips. As of current, Orbis has 8 Jaguar cores. There are 4 cores per Jaguar module. That means 2 slots take up the Crossbar, leaving 2 more opened. Just enough for two PE's. 8 Jaguar cores total with 2 PPU's and 8 SPU's.
Another possible configuration that Jeff mentions is 4 Steamroller cores (as 2 comes in each module), with the additional 2 PE's attached, but I digress.
In the patent there is this quote.
"The local PE bus can have, e.g., a conventional architecture or can be implemented as a packet-switched network."
This fits in-line perfectly with AMD's solution.
To further solidify this theory, we take a look at this quote:
"The PE is closely associated with a shared (main) memory through a high bandwidth memory connection. Although the memory preferably is a dynamic random access memory (DRAM), the memory could be implemented using other means, e.g. as a static random access memory (SRAM), a magnetic random access memory (MRAM), an optical memory, or a holographic memory, etc."
This allows any implementation of memory as the engineers see fit. Sony is no longer tied down to the use of XDR ram for these PE's. The GDDR5 bandwidth would satisfy the needs of the SPE's to make sure they aren't data starved.
What does this all mean?
This means several things:
Backwards compatibility is within reach, adding the two PE's will create an environment where they can emulate the Cell. The RSX can be emulated by the GPU, and the GDDR5 bandwidth is sufficient.
PS4 functions: As they mentioned in the article, it will take "GPU-like" functions. Why use the SPE's over conventional GPU cores? SPE's are much faster. They tackle GPU tasks in a CPU manner. Low core count, high speed. These functions include DSP, a feature that Sony has yet to address in the Orbis, physics tasks, and video processing (encoding/decoding). They can add all these features to the Orbis without having the GPU take a hit and sacrificing GPU tasks.
phosphor112
Banned
The LS on the SPE's negate that, as long as the GDDR5 can feed the SPE's new data as fast as they can. The patent accepts even an optical drive as "memory" for the SPE's. That's how they designed this new system. That's why it's so much better than the SpursEngine. Just as long as it gets data. The bandwidth of GDDR5 is high enough to not really need to worry about the latency.
Even if it DID need XDR, the patent includes the ability to include the ram WITHIN the PE.
Goldrusher
Member
We don't know that yet.
Today, the PSP and PSVITA are grouped together, so there's a chance PS3 and PS4 will be grouped together as well.
today: 1 account can be used on a maximum of 2 PS3s and 2 handhelds
So if they group together the PS3 and PS4, Zoe is correct and it won't be possible to use your account on any PS3 after you've already activated 2 PS4s.
phosphor112
Banned
They would literally have to go out of their way to not include it.
I mean, if people think about it, it wasn't last minute that Sony decided not to use a "super cell" design for PS4. So the problem came up early: "How will we support our PS3 games post PS4 launch?"
Patented a couple years ago... this design. It would work.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Article still hasn't posted?
phosphor112
Banned
Nope.
Kun Aguero
Member
Interesting read Phospher, I'm not overly bothered about bc, but if they can get it in, I think they should.
amstradcpc
Member
Yes, maybe they will wait people eat their coffee toasts to brace themselves better...
phosphor112
Banned
Excluding the BC function, introducing those chips into the system will put it way above the 360. It's functions as a DSP, video functions, and stream processing is practically unrivaled, all one "one" chip.
amstradcpc
Member
And would leverage the power of the spus for what it was meant from the beginning... physics!. And first parties would have engines working on PS4 from day one too...
Question is whether what is obvious to us is as obvious to Sony...
And I must add that your post number 2074 was very well conceived.
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
I would love Sony to have that compute unit to emulate cell and use it to take work loads away from the gpu for ps4 games coupled with stacking and high bandwidth/low latency ram and we will have a console that should satisfy the masses.
Tripp Daily
Member
I find it funny that you hide this in the Orbis thread out of fear of getting smacked down by proelite again.
H_Prestige
Banned
Sony could have the god console here. Full ps1/ps2/ps3 BC. Hell, they could through in psp emulation while they're at it.
i see you're one of his followers. mods you can ban him too.
seriously, what is wrong with people? proelite is a clown with zero credibility.
phosphor112
Banned
They came up with the solution, not me.
amstradcpc
Member
Is there any estimation of the wattage a PE would have in 28nm?. I think i read somewhere something like 20 watts for entire cell... right?.
Another thing to consider: clocks would be all multiples for the sake of syncing data:
1600 mhz for main cpu
3200 mhz for PEs
800 mhz for gpu
I know. I mean whether they will actually do it or not. Perhaps this VGleak will shed more light on the matter.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Have a feeling that the new rumors going to be about x box .
Still i hope we get some PS4 news also .
Still i hope we get some PS4 news also .
systemfehler
Member
Would memory fall into that category awell? In that case GDDR5 at 1600MHz would give the target bandwidth of 192GB/s again - 1375MHz (aka 5.5Gbps modules) would be 176GB/s.
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