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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Yea you're right, It read like it would tho. Theres no way that would happen.
Yeah, doesn't make any sense. They balanced the rest of the hardware for 14 CU's, but put in 18 anyway. !?!?!
Or maybe it means 4 CU's are disabled for better yields.
KimonoNoNo
Member
Yep nothing surprising there.
Bit of a let down all told.
Bit of a let down all told.
Would you rather 3 cameras?
Gemüsepizza
Member
8 Render backends sounds strange. The BD drive speed is also wrong. Sounds like a copy+paste article of recent rumors and some made up "facts".
phosphor112
Banned
They already have 2 disabled.. the original GPU features 20, not 18.
BloodMoney
Banned
VGleaks is simply rehashing what's been posted on neogaf for weeks now. This is far from concrete in my opinion. All they've done is assembly a bunch of rumors into what seems to make the most sense.
Or everything in these reveals are just.... BS?
googleplex
Member
Sony has had a Camera since the PS2, how the fuck are they "copying" that Kinect when kinect is copying them?
So this leak is truly dubious eh?
I guess we'll really have to wait then
Come on now, sony didn't invent the webcam. Don't like kinect, but you can't compare this to the eye toy really. Not the technology nor the way it was marketed.
I guess we'll really have to wait then
Come on now, sony didn't invent the webcam. Don't like kinect, but you can't compare this to the eye toy really. Not the technology nor the way it was marketed.
Manmademan
Member
No, Ps2 classics are PS2 games compiled to run on a PS3 using a software emulator designed for a PS3. They aren't ISO's as the PS1 classics are.
you can't just dump them as-is on a machine that isn't compatible with the PS3 architecture (say, the ps4, or the 720) and expect them to run.
Could you compile new PS2 games to run on a PS4 using software? Sure. But then the 70-100 (I'm not going to count them, this is an estimate) games already on the service will not work on the ps4, and you'd have to re-port them on the new emulator.
This is not only extra work for Sony (who does the port job themselves), but also once again splits the store into PS2 classics that work on PS4, and PS2 classics that don't. Users that bought Maximo to play on their PS3 will have to buy it again, or Sony will have to work out a way to give them free copies- essentially doing the port work for no financial gain.
So- is it possible? sure. Does it make sense to do it this way? not really- the amount of work it would take to keep PSN consistent without including some kind of BC would outstrip the cost of a 30 dollar part.
Killing_Joke
Member
One SKU launch is the only new/good news out of the article. No reason to have a cock fight over a bigger HDD. No one likes tard packs. With the combined GPU/CPU, Sony is def shooting for a small console. I'm expecting something near the phat PS2 or maybe the current PS3 slim. Keep it between $399-$450 and i'm sold.
The original also has a higher clockspeed. Not surprised by Sony making adjustments. Probably to help keep costs down.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
If it is emulation, you don't port anything. You may have emulator profiles and of course only certain games may be ale to run in the emulator due to the lack of eDRAM. As far as I have read the PS2 classics are just ISO dumps. In theory PS2 emulation would be much easier in the PS4 (no bandwidth issues), so you could have full BC with disc or DD with little work, the same way it works with PS2 games in the PS3.
Shame there was no mention of that BC chip in these new leaks. I think sony would be in a bad light if the next xbox is fully backwards compatible with all 360 games. All that content for the durango at launch. Microsoft did previously state that the next xbox would be fully BC even.
What did Sony do to get PSP games running on Vita? They made a new emulator right? For free on the users end. Same with PSone games on PS3 right? Is there still hardware in PS3's that's dedicated to BC?
I guess the question is is it possible for the PS4 to even run PS3 games in software emulation tech wise.
Manmademan
Member
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps2-classics-on-ps3
They aren't. ISO dumps won't work because the PS3 isn't powerful enough to emulate the PS2 entirely in software. The PS1 classics are, though.
Right. PSP games run on the vita using an emulator- the Vita is strong enough to do (most) games in software. Same thing with the PSone. they're just iso dumps and the PS3 uses an emulator. PS2 classics are a different issue, since Sony has to take the original game, and re-compile it to run on a PS3. the software is actually different here- it's not an ISO.
The PS4 is most certainly not powerful enough to emulate the PS3 in software. Hardware is mandatory, though its up in the air exactly how much they'll need. The full cell? only the SPU's? no one who knows enough is saying anything.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Richland or A10 just had info released on it. It's what many are expecting the PS4 to be based on. If Charlie's Oban is 32nm SOI it's likely Richland based also.
At 32nm it's likely SOI which works but we have multiple rumors that Kryptos (Xbox3) and Thebe (PS4) have Jaguar Mobile CPUs.
Problem with SOI is AMD is going bulk with 28nm and smaller die. Sweetvar26 said that both Sony and Microsoft switched to Jaguar for the 10 year life of the console and Jaguar is a mobile CPU that has a life going forward while SOI and Piledriver CPUs do not. The first refresh if not using Jaguar and bulk @ 28nm would require a very large redesign. If using Jaguar and bulk, the first refresh would likely be after 14nm and 3D packaging came on-line so no transposer would be required but 3D packaging has problems with heat so Piledriver/Bulldozer/Excavator/PPU/SPU type processors may have problems which also likely means no BC after 2-3 years. This is the problem with Oban as the entire SoC and all taped out Dec 2011 on 32nm SOI. It's also the problem with the A10 as the base for the PS4 or Xbox 3.
Kryptos = Transposer (Active with eDRAM 32nm SOI) + Jaguar and 8000 series GPU @ 28nm 2.5D attached
Oban as the transposer can be taped out @32nm on SOI and SOI saves a couple of steps (cheaper) in manufacturing eDRAM on chip. eDRAM should be under Logic for heat dissipation reasons so transposer real estate is not wasted.
For Xbox 360 BC 2 PPUs could be on Oban @ 32nm SOI but other AMD packages 2.5D stacked on the Oban transposer using bulk at 28nm and even 22nm. This would work for Sony PS3 BC also, two PPU3SPU packages @ 32nm part of Oban or whatever Sony calls their transposer (Oban is a Japanese large blank gold coin with bumps).
Anyway with the above A10 information we know a A10 top end with 4 piledriver cores (2 packages) on SOI @ 32nm with a 8670 GPU is 100 watts. Take away the Piledriver TDP and give most of it to a 8000 GPU (Jaguar uses less power) (32nm SOI is apx equal to 28nm Bulk) add 20+ watts and the efficiency for the eDRAM and we might be coming near PS4 or Xbox 3 specs..
http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/2003/AMD_Radeon_HD_8670D_IGP.html The 8670 is only 6 CUs and is .6TFlops
The Sony depth camera patent used 1 camera and IR source then relied on reflected IR intensity to give distance. Again two cameras may be used until a finished PS4 camera and software are ready.
At 32nm it's likely SOI which works but we have multiple rumors that Kryptos (Xbox3) and Thebe (PS4) have Jaguar Mobile CPUs.
Problem with SOI is AMD is going bulk with 28nm and smaller die. Sweetvar26 said that both Sony and Microsoft switched to Jaguar for the 10 year life of the console and Jaguar is a mobile CPU that has a life going forward while SOI and Piledriver CPUs do not. The first refresh if not using Jaguar and bulk @ 28nm would require a very large redesign. If using Jaguar and bulk, the first refresh would likely be after 14nm and 3D packaging came on-line so no transposer would be required but 3D packaging has problems with heat so Piledriver/Bulldozer/Excavator/PPU/SPU type processors may have problems which also likely means no BC after 2-3 years. This is the problem with Oban as the entire SoC and all taped out Dec 2011 on 32nm SOI. It's also the problem with the A10 as the base for the PS4 or Xbox 3.
Kryptos = Transposer (Active with eDRAM 32nm SOI) + Jaguar and 8000 series GPU @ 28nm 2.5D attached
Oban as the transposer can be taped out @32nm on SOI and SOI saves a couple of steps (cheaper) in manufacturing eDRAM on chip. eDRAM should be under Logic for heat dissipation reasons so transposer real estate is not wasted.
For Xbox 360 BC 2 PPUs could be on Oban @ 32nm SOI but other AMD packages 2.5D stacked on the Oban transposer using bulk at 28nm and even 22nm. This would work for Sony PS3 BC also, two PPU3SPU packages @ 32nm part of Oban or whatever Sony calls their transposer (Oban is a Japanese large blank gold coin with bumps).
Anyway with the above A10 information we know a A10 top end with 4 piledriver cores (2 packages) on SOI @ 32nm with a 8670 GPU is 100 watts. Take away the Piledriver TDP and give most of it to a 8000 GPU (Jaguar uses less power) (32nm SOI is apx equal to 28nm Bulk) add 20+ watts and the efficiency for the eDRAM and we might be coming near PS4 or Xbox 3 specs..
http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/2003/AMD_Radeon_HD_8670D_IGP.html The 8670 is only 6 CUs and is .6TFlops
The Sony depth camera patent used 1 camera and IR source then relied on reflected IR intensity to give distance. Again two cameras may be used until a finished PS4 camera and software are ready.
shinobi602
Member
Why are people dismissing this info? Because here on GAF there were similar sentiments?
IIRC, many here had "sources" of their own which echoed these leaks. Is it hard to believe VGLeaks' sources also had the same info and are all basically concluding at the same source?
It's not hard to believe imo...
IIRC, many here had "sources" of their own which echoed these leaks. Is it hard to believe VGLeaks' sources also had the same info and are all basically concluding at the same source?
It's not hard to believe imo...
Precisely my point. All else I can live with but this is far too bizarre.
Zoe
Member
Did the PS3 devkits have the PS2 hardware in them?
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
Disappointing. Maybe they went cheap so they can include the cameras and move controller.
Not hard to believe maybe, but who are these people? We don't know the sources or can we verify anything. I've never heard of this site before, are they reliable in 'leaks'?
Well there are questionable informations, and some make little sense. Even the graphic looks amateurish and simplistic: "8x jaguar cores X86-64 CPU Cores". looks odd to me.
Also it does not give any new infos, it seems based on what we knew already. So yeah, i'd call this dubious, although they probably get the basis correct, because they were known.
what does 'hardware balanced at 14 CUs' mean? Yield protection by only using 14CUs out of the 18? That makes it overall much closer to Durango's 12CUs though and doesn't seem to match with the TF target.
8 Render 'Backends' must be ROPs, if so does that give us any idea on fillrate capacity?
video encode makes me think remoteplay mandatory for all games to vita (and probably tablets too)
bluray drive seems a bit poor. Slower than 6x unless you optimise your content for the edge of the disc? CAV is good for streaming engines and predictability, but 3x on the inside is crappy. And BD50 only? That surely has to be a mistake based on devkits - won't sony want to go BDXL with 100GB support?
8 Render 'Backends' must be ROPs, if so does that give us any idea on fillrate capacity?
video encode makes me think remoteplay mandatory for all games to vita (and probably tablets too)
bluray drive seems a bit poor. Slower than 6x unless you optimise your content for the edge of the disc? CAV is good for streaming engines and predictability, but 3x on the inside is crappy. And BD50 only? That surely has to be a mistake based on devkits - won't sony want to go BDXL with 100GB support?
Manmademan
Member
The only questionable thing here is that the claim is that it's including a dual camera, an "evolved" dualshock (I'm guessing this is the touchpad based one) AND a move controller.
That seems like a lot, personally.
Yeah that plus the CUs number, the TFLOP that doesn't not seem to match it, the wrong BD speed, the lack of texture units...
A lot indeed.
edit : lol just seen the other topic, was wondering why the thread wasn't flooded in hype
the 1.843 is based on 18CUs, but nobody seems to know what the 14CU thing is talking about exactly
Split between the GPU and the additional compute unit: 14 and 4. Not sure why Sony has decided to split four off though.
H_Prestige
Banned
Yes they are. If you have any evidence fo the contrary feel free to present it. The link you posted also agrees with me.
PS3 is powerful enough to emulate ps2 games, just not the whole library. Who would be recompiling these niche as hell ps2 games? And how could you recompile a ps2 game for ps3 while keeping the same exact video output settings as the original console? You'd have to do more work to prevent improvements. Hence, these aren't ports. They are ps2 ISO files. They work as such. They are listed as such.
don't they use ps3 saves though? so something slightly different must be going on
the ps1 classics just use the virtual ps1 memory cards on the system(thus you can use your old saves)
ps2 games did the same on the 60gb ps3
edit: unless i was misinformed. i havent actualyl played any "ps2 classics" yet, but someone had told me ps2 saves weren't compatible with them. if that wasn't true, well shit. this is great news
H_Prestige
Banned
They don't use ps3 saves. A new custom ps2 save folder is created. I don't know why they did that, but maybe it's more convenient than creating and managing virtual memory cards. Original ps2 saves can't be transferred.
badcrumble
Member
It's in a wrapper. It's like WINE. It's not fully recompiled, it's not emulated either.
This is why the "PS2 Classics" download of God Hand is playable in a non-60GB PS3 but the disc version isn't.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Possibly 4 CUs are used for physics and 14 for GPU. If it's a 8000 series there is no 2014 context switching and graphics pre-emption to allow fast switching between OpenCL use and GPU use. A Temesh APU was a 2 CU GPU and 2 jaguar packages. AMD recommends APU + GPU till 2014 but if it's going to be one GPU there needs to be separate CU for physics.
Existing PS2 saves aren't compatible with the PS2 Classics on PSN. However, that has nothing to do with whether they're emulated or not. The emulator gives each PS2 Classics two empty memory cards and doesn't allow any imports from the originals; this is most likely because there are a variety of hacks that can be done with PS2 saves, including running HDDLoader (which actually works on PS3s with BC without CFW).
The reason the disc version isn't playable on the non-BC PS3 is because Sony won't allow any PS2 disc to be run, the emulator is only for PSN downloads. Again, it doesn't have anything to do with whether they are emulated, in a wrapper, or recompiled.
MaulerX
Member
As far as bandwidth comparisons go, can we really and honestly say "176GB/s vs. 68GB/s"? That's like completely ignoring Durango's 32MB eSRAM's 102GB/s and DME's. That has to count for something I'm sure. These things considered, I'm afraid double the RAM for Durango might be a problem a few years from now.
But is it slow? How much do you lose in terms of efficiency by mixing those threads on the same group of CUs?
I initially would have been surprised if these CUs were physically separate from the others. But now I'm thinking, if mixing of GPGPU/graphics threads on one GPU is to some non-negligible degree inefficient, that maybe they are segregating into two groups, each with their own command processors and thread schedulers etc?
Sounds like if the CUs are in two groups that the 'compute module' would fit the description for one of them.
Still though, 'hardware balanced for 14' does sound strange. Maybe they're not physically separate groups but do have distinct command processing logic. I dunno.
That compute module might be those remaining 4CUs for dedicated GPGPU functions. Assuming that spec chart means 14CUs for graphics.
I think that was the initial thought about the separate Compute Module we in the docs from earlier in the month. Was really hoping for 18 CU onthe GPU itself with a little extra on the side for physics. 18 overall is pretty good overall imo based on 32 ROPs and 72 TUs based on info from other thread.
Wasn't the 6570 the estimated performance of the Wii U GPU? If that's so, oh the hilarity.
R10Neymarfan
Member
This stuff is still unconfirmed though. Hope that is a typo.
Dude please with the BS. I'll bite. Tell me what's wrong? Also try not to compare to a pc rig because you will continue to be wrong like a few post in here.
BlindMonkey
Member
I don't get the part where you have the Jaguar CPU, and then the Liverpool is both a CPU and a GPU?
Would that be an AMD GPU and possibly a CELL CPU integrated into a single APU?
Would that be an AMD GPU and possibly a CELL CPU integrated into a single APU?
They are probably both just Thousand Island anyway.
feint_ruled
Member
Seriously, people saying that the PS2 classics aren't emulated either haven't ever played any or are labouring under some serious misapprehensions about what emulation actually is. Whichever it is, they would do well to hold their own counsel on the subject.
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